Delight, Ethics and Confucianism with Dr. Andrew Lambert

PJ is joined by Eastern philosophy expert Dr. Andrew Lambert. Together, they discuss delight in Confucian ethics and the difference in Western and Eastern ways of thinking.

Show Notes

In this episode, Dr. Andrew Lambert discuss his paper, "From Aesthetics to Ethics: The place of delight in Confucian ethics" which  discusses the communal and individual benefits of social ritual.

If you want to dig deeper, you can check out Dr. Lambert's paper on Confucian ethics here 👉 https://academicworks.cuny.edu/si_pubs/216/

To watch video of the episodes, highlights, and daily motivational and thought-provoking videos, subscribe to the Candid Goat Productions YouTube 👉 https://youtube.com/channel/UCTyPKRXmrNrxvbH1p5sNrJA

Or check out our blog on www.candidgoatproductions.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[pj_wehry]: hello and welcome to chasing the viython. I'm your host. P. ▁j wey, and today I'm

[pj_wehry]: joined here by Uh. doctor Andrew Lambert, Doctor Andrew Lamber, is the assistant

[pj_wehry]: professor philosophy at the College of Staten Island City, the University of New

[pj_wehry]: York, Uh. His research focuses on ethical theory, classical and contemporary

[pj_wehry]: confuscion thought and the philosophy of sport. Today, we' going to kind of be

[pj_wehry]: focusing on Uh, Confucian thought, and the main question we' dealing with is how

[pj_wehry]: can you lead a good life, Doctor Lambert, Absolute joy to have you on the show

[pj_wehry]: today.

[andrew_lambert]: Thank you yet. it's great to be here.

[pj_wehry]: Uh, so as we look at you know, how can you lead a good life? Uh, What led you to

[pj_wehry]: become a philosopher and specifically, uh, what led you to the study of Confucian

[pj_wehry]: thought?

[andrew_lambert]: Yeah, well, like most people that do, philosopher is always curious about

[andrew_lambert]: the world and asking questions about where does that come from. Remember

[andrew_lambert]: when I has a very small child about five years old, I was cycling with my,

[andrew_lambert]: my M, my dad, and down to the locals of Canal or the river. I remember

[andrew_lambert]: asking him like I'm from the U. K. Like you know, why does the ▁queen have

[andrew_lambert]: such power Right? Why did you have such privilege? What is she done to

[andrew_lambert]: deserve that? When you, you know ordinary people work and don't have like

[andrew_lambert]: great riches. And you know that's just kind of weird thing for a five or six

[andrew_lambert]: year old to ask. But that's just the way it was right. So clearly, kind of

[andrew_lambert]: faated to to be interested in philosophy. Um, as for the of my interest in

[andrew_lambert]: in some non Western like Chinese Confucian philosophy, Actually, when I

[andrew_lambert]: finished undergraduate, I went to Japan. Um,

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[andrew_lambert]: for a couple of years on. I don't know if you've heard of the Japan Exchange

[andrew_lambert]: teaching program, The Jet program,

[pj_wehry]: sounds familiar. Be yet't

[pj_wehry]: sounds familiar. Be yet't

[andrew_lambert]: Which is a chance.

[andrew_lambert]: Yeah it, it. it gives Uh new graduates from different countries n native

[andrew_lambert]: English speakers the chance to go to Japan and teach Uh English. And

[andrew_lambert]: basically, I did that as a just an experience right just to see the world,

[andrew_lambert]: Never been to Asia. Obviously, and uh, then I got a scholarship to study

[andrew_lambert]: philosophy, Kyoto University, Um, and friendly enough From from there I

[andrew_lambert]: became interested in in Chinese thoughts, so I swapped my attention to to

[andrew_lambert]: China. I went to China and I went to a graduate school. C came to grad to

[andrew_lambert]: school in the U. S. basically to to work specifically on Chinese thought and

[andrew_lambert]: and ethics and Confucian ethics. Um. So basically my, my path was to go and

[andrew_lambert]: live in in Asia and Japan and China,

[andrew_lambert]: and just kind of experienced the different kind of social values and the

[andrew_lambert]: different ways in which familiar interactions right how you greet people,

[andrew_lambert]: how you talk to older people, Such really simple everyday things that we all

[andrew_lambert]: deal with were addressed in different ways by people living in China and

[andrew_lambert]: Japan, And the kind curiosity of word, does that come from way is that I

[andrew_lambert]: think have led to more contextual study, the kind of the history of

[andrew_lambert]: philosophy and and Confucian. Thought,

[pj_wehry]: awesome. Yeah, and that makes total sense, so uh, yeah, and I'm pulling here from

[pj_wehry]: Uh, your paper and let me bring that up the title From aesthetics to Ethics, the

[pj_wehry]: place of delight and Confuscian ethics. Um, will actually leave a link to it Uh,

[pj_wehry]: below the Youtube video, but um,

[pj_wehry]: uh, talk to a about that paper. What ha? What did you find specifically unique in

[pj_wehry]: the contribution of Confucian Uh, thought to the idea of the good life?

[andrew_lambert]: yeah, so that there are a couple of things? Um,

[andrew_lambert]: you know. Obviously E, everybody at some time or another has interest in

[andrew_lambert]: ethics Right. Kind of how do I lead a good life? What is the right thing to

[andrew_lambert]: do? These really kind of general questions.

[pj_wehry]: You would hope so.

[andrew_lambert]: and

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: that,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: maybe I' too idealistic. Um, it may you right. And

[andrew_lambert]: so it you know, and different traditions have different answers Right, and

[andrew_lambert]: and

[pj_wehry]: right,

[andrew_lambert]: even within traditions you get different answers. So you know you have

[andrew_lambert]: Aristotle, who gives an answer, Emmanuual canant of is a famous philosophy,

[andrew_lambert]: has his sort of complex, interesting work on ethics. Utilitarianism, Um, you

[andrew_lambert]: know virtue ethics? All these kind of philosophical schools and the

[andrew_lambert]: Confucians have their own answer to that question.

[andrew_lambert]: But but they have something else which is kind of interesting. which is

[andrew_lambert]: you. A we come from a we. By way, I mean kind of Northern European, like

[andrew_lambert]: Anglo American

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[andrew_lambert]: European, I guess parts of Australasia, Um, have a strong sense of

[andrew_lambert]: individualism, Right that the individual self, the individual person is a

[andrew_lambert]: real locus of value,

[pj_wehry]: Yes,

[andrew_lambert]: you know, and even metaphysically right that the way to think about people

[andrew_lambert]: is to think about the S as an atomic self contained entity. You know, we can

[andrew_lambert]: ask questions, or are we think about? You know how I be authentic. Now, how

[andrew_lambert]: can how can I get people to understand my true in a self right, this idea of

[andrew_lambert]: like finding, discovering and presenting that that self

[andrew_lambert]: and

[andrew_lambert]: I would argue, and and many people have this view that in the Confuscian

[andrew_lambert]: tradition, there is much more emphasis on on the social self and on

[andrew_lambert]: sociality, which is to say that how we think about ourselves is partly a

[andrew_lambert]: function of our relationships, right how we relate to other people,

[andrew_lambert]: and the easiest way to explain this in the Confucian tradition is to look at

[andrew_lambert]: the emphasis placed on social. Roles, so in the classical Confuscian text,

[andrew_lambert]: like the Analecs of Confucius Themensus, that the shunza, like three great

[andrew_lambert]: classical early Chinese thinkers, they all talk a lot about social rules,

[andrew_lambert]: especially the family, Um, teachers and students,

[andrew_lambert]: um rulers, ministers,

[andrew_lambert]: and they sort present society partly as an awareness of how we all exist

[andrew_lambert]: within all sorts of social roles, and these roles are not necessarily equal,

[andrew_lambert]: Right,

[pj_wehry]: hey,

[andrew_lambert]: unlike the very like glory tradition that we belong, to, which emphasizes

[andrew_lambert]: individual equality, It in the face of difference, respect for difference,

[andrew_lambert]: the confusions, in some ways have a more. Pragmatic view that the reality is

[andrew_lambert]: you know, it's kind of hard to say in virtue of what people are equal,

[andrew_lambert]: because in almost all of our relationships there's some pretty important

[andrew_lambert]: fact their inequality. right. you might be a brother or a sister or a

[andrew_lambert]: sibling. Right, and your order, you more experienced, or you're just bigger

[andrew_lambert]: and stronger, or your smart, or, or whatever it is, right, Um, or you know

[andrew_lambert]: you're already have more more more life experience and children are just,

[andrew_lambert]: you know. in a sense weaker, less experienced, less wealthy than parents. So

[andrew_lambert]: natural human interaction, natural y, society often features its some sorts

[andrew_lambert]: of inequality. Know that that's not new. That so, in some ways a

[andrew_lambert]: conservative view, but the idea is for the confusions. It's a deeper

[andrew_lambert]: question

[andrew_lambert]: of that the self itself right may be partly constructed by social

[andrew_lambert]: considerations, right that that who I am is a function of the roles I play

[andrew_lambert]: and the interactions I take part in.

[andrew_lambert]: And if that's right, and now that's a whole extra question we can go into,

[andrew_lambert]: then the

[andrew_lambert]: yeah, and they answers. the question of you know, what's the good life like

[andrew_lambert]: right. How should I behave may be slightly different from accounts of the

[andrew_lambert]: good life, which start from the assumption of a very strong sense of

[andrew_lambert]: individuality, a belief in a kind of self contained atomic self that is

[andrew_lambert]: different from other celves of other people,

[andrew_lambert]: So so

[pj_wehry]: mhm.

[andrew_lambert]: that that's a kind of background and can fillin the answer that I was trying

[andrew_lambert]: to to create in this paperon in other work is to say that because the

[andrew_lambert]: confuscions start from such a strong awareness of social life right,

[andrew_lambert]: and that, unlike for example, a manual can, who thinks that ethics. In some

[andrew_lambert]: senses transcendent that the right thing to do is independent of time, and

[andrew_lambert]: place its found to the faculty of reason. But it is kind of universal

[andrew_lambert]: general laws that will always sub guuide your rational judgment. In contrast

[andrew_lambert]: to that right, the Confuscians seem to think more,

[andrew_lambert]: the the good life. The right thing to do is that which contributes to

[andrew_lambert]: harmonious interaction, a harmonious society.

[andrew_lambert]: Harmony is a big, a big concept in Confucion thought, and at only in the

[andrew_lambert]: last of ten fifteen years have people really started philosophically to to

[andrew_lambert]: delve into it and say you know what? exactly that does harmony mean Right?

[andrew_lambert]: And there are some such a basic. A harmony is a goal of action. It's a

[andrew_lambert]: concept for which we can

[pj_wehry]: s.

[andrew_lambert]: understand the good life like we can aim at this. But what is it right? Um,

[andrew_lambert]: if you easy, some metaphors and images that help people understand it. Um, a

[andrew_lambert]: famous one is music right. think of like taking part in a big musical jam or

[andrew_lambert]: a big concert orchestra. Right, You have your role to play. But the way you

[andrew_lambert]: play it is partly a response to other people, And to create the perfect tune

[andrew_lambert]: requires all sorts of coordination or source of consideration for others.

[andrew_lambert]: And a second one is Um

[andrew_lambert]: cooking right. And how do you make a fantastic dish or a fantastic soup?

[andrew_lambert]: And you know you have to think about your ingredients. how you blend them.

[andrew_lambert]: how one flavor interacts with another flavor. And you know this kind of

[andrew_lambert]: skilful process. You kind of blend the ingredients to create that their

[andrew_lambert]: perfect soup.

[andrew_lambert]: But notice how in a way there isn't a simple right answer of what to do

[andrew_lambert]: right, both in the musical example and in the say the Souit making example.

[andrew_lambert]: It's kind of,

[andrew_lambert]: I wouldn't say just trial and error. but you know what you actually produce

[andrew_lambert]: is a function of trying to blend different dynamic components Y, you know.

[andrew_lambert]: And and that's very much a confuscion model of a good life. Right. You're

[andrew_lambert]: trying to blend different uh components and specifically social elements,

[andrew_lambert]: Right, the different social roles, the different people in your social

[andrew_lambert]: world, Try to figure out how you can interact with them in a way that

[andrew_lambert]: produces the kind of ideal notion of harmony.

[andrew_lambert]: And and this paper was ready to sort of try to put that within the framework

[andrew_lambert]: of the experience of delight or joy. Now we we know that delight, joy in the

[andrew_lambert]: Confuscian tradition in the analax is is quite an important idea. Music is a

[andrew_lambert]: big deal for the Confuscians,

[andrew_lambert]: so

[andrew_lambert]: we also know that they are into social roles, and like the importance of

[andrew_lambert]: social interaction and how you produce good interactions.

[andrew_lambert]: And if you put them together you, you kind of get this idea that the F. the

[andrew_lambert]: way we should think about human social interaction

[andrew_lambert]: isn't only or isn't necessarily that it's all rule governed. That should

[andrew_lambert]: always treat people according to certain moral rules, don't violate the

[andrew_lambert]: moral rules, But also, maybe you can think about approaching social

[andrew_lambert]: interaction with the question of like, how do I produce a certain kind of

[andrew_lambert]: effect right, the effect being the creation of delight. Like asured

[andrew_lambert]: experience of delight or joy, or a sense of ease, a sense of belonging, a

[andrew_lambert]: sense of having accomplished something through interactions with people,

[andrew_lambert]: All of these are kind of feelings. Emotions may be psychological states,

[andrew_lambert]: which

[andrew_lambert]: I, I think the convisions think are very important, and they also put kind

[andrew_lambert]: of right up there in the kind of topechulon of ethical goals and concepts.

[andrew_lambert]: Right, The thats of aiming at this in a way that in traditional Western

[andrew_lambert]: ethics we we talk about aim at the greatest possible good right. Do the

[andrew_lambert]: thing that produces the most overall well being, which is a very kind of

[andrew_lambert]: dry, abstract way of you know, demanding we act in a certain way,

[andrew_lambert]: And it's fair to say, the traditional Confucian thought doesn't really have

[andrew_lambert]: that as an aim, like uterterism,

[andrew_lambert]: it, it, it does arguably have some version like the Golden rule, but I don't

[andrew_lambert]: think the kind of strong Canin didentological ethics is is really that

[andrew_lambert]: important to the early Confuscians, But what is important, like we said, is

[andrew_lambert]: this notion of social interaction, the creation of a sense of delight,

[andrew_lambert]: so.

[andrew_lambert]: That paper is is really trying, trying to explore idea and and saying,

[andrew_lambert]: look at traditional Confucian thought and they often describe this ideal

[andrew_lambert]: situation of like a social gathering. think about like a dinner party If you

[pj_wehry]: yeah.

[andrew_lambert]: want to, are like a big, like a big ceremony where all the the king and

[andrew_lambert]: diviners and and the royal court there and they're trying to create this

[andrew_lambert]: kind of uh experience as kind of expensive delight.

[andrew_lambert]: And it's almost like that's their practical goal,

[andrew_lambert]: and it has some important political implications Like if you attend one of

[andrew_lambert]: these big ceremonies and you kind of experience the sense of uh, being part

[andrew_lambert]: of a great event, you will identify with the king. You'll be more more loyal

[andrew_lambert]: to the king, Right, you'll be a a, sort of a a happy subject.

[andrew_lambert]: But it also has, we can also extra abstract it right to something that

[andrew_lambert]: speaks to us today as a kind of an anethical framework, like an an idea of

[andrew_lambert]: how we should act right, Um, which I think's interesting because it hasn't

[andrew_lambert]: really been a big theme in kind of traditional twentieth century. Uh. What

[andrew_lambert]: Western ethics right? We've been much more kind of theory based much more

[andrew_lambert]: about what rule or principle do I need that will enable me to make the right

[andrew_lambert]: moral judgment. right,

[pj_wehry]: Well, forgive me for googling, cause, I mean, I know I'm just listening here.

[pj_wehry]: ▁quietly. but my brain is just exploding with fireworks. This is awesome. thank

[pj_wehry]: you.

[pj_wehry]: so just make sure I'm kind of track with you. A couple things that have kind of

[pj_wehry]: crossed reerence. Me, one is.

[pj_wehry]: if this was you. I apologize. Maybe this is why your name was familiar to me. Uh,

[pj_wehry]: were you on philosophy bites?

[andrew_lambert]: uh, no, no,

[pj_wehry]: Okay, they add a scholar, uh, on about Confucianism and they talked about outer

[pj_wehry]: forms corresponding to inner states. Um, and how? in Confucianism for instance,

[pj_wehry]: it's very important to align your mat properly because it's about creating the

[pj_wehry]: proper vironment to shape your soul, And uh, I think that's a lot of you know.

[pj_wehry]: There's there's some correspondence there am I tracking with you there,

[andrew_lambert]: yeah, and that's actually a great example specifically because those kinds

[andrew_lambert]: of famous pastors work says. if the matter isn't properly aligned, I'm not

[andrew_lambert]: going to sit down. Of course, in ancient China, that they, they sat on, Ma

[andrew_lambert]: was quite normal, and for a long time people said You know. This just shows

[andrew_lambert]: how kind of backward and kind of conservative the confusions are right. This

[andrew_lambert]: like really stuffy stuff about. You know how should align your mat. the

[andrew_lambert]: order which should eat things that the names by which you have to address

[andrew_lambert]: people. God, how boring my army is so much better in in a so liberalzed

[andrew_lambert]: society and told more recently that you get a more sympathetic thoughtful

[andrew_lambert]: reading of those paures, which just just like you say, maybe they're saying

[andrew_lambert]: you know, Take care about your social interactions right. take her to

[andrew_lambert]: arrange the elements around you in such a way that it sort of brings these

[andrew_lambert]: effects to to it right. it affects people in the right ways. And so that

[andrew_lambert]: that's a great example of how you know. Maybe the Confucians were saying

[andrew_lambert]: something more interesting than we originally thought they were. Where we

[andrew_lambert]: thought they were just being very conservative A bit backward, you know, at

[andrew_lambert]: oppressive. and so on.

[pj_wehry]: but that's I mean. that's the blindness of our perspective, Um, even, and it's

[pj_wehry]: you've referenced it a couple times and I had this as a question to ask you. Um.

[pj_wehry]: Obviously, we are

[pj_wehry]: uh, from a Confuscian perspective, and I think rightly uh, as a corrective to

[pj_wehry]: Western thought, we are more parts of a wholele than we realize right. there's

[pj_wehry]: that very atomic view and we've talked a little bit about Uh, state of mind or

[pj_wehry]: share like a like. but probably more

[pj_wehry]: accurately you know you're talking about shared states of mind like the. The whole

[pj_wehry]: is sharing the experience. Um, I think, for you know, in my audiencet, I think be

[pj_wehry]: a little bit more casual, but curious. Can you describe that uh, kind of inter

[pj_wehry]: subjectectivity, That shared state of mind a little bit more, because I know even

[pj_wehry]: for me and I have had a little bit of experience with that, but it's difficult to

[pj_wehry]: put that into a Western language. I think thats part of part of our blindness. If

[pj_wehry]: that makes sense,

[andrew_lambert]: Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. I mean the example are are I given outi? I

[andrew_lambert]: think I use it in the paper. What we're talking about is think about a big

[andrew_lambert]: sporting event Like, maybe the Superbwl is a good example.

[andrew_lambert]: and how,

[andrew_lambert]: Um, if it goes well, if it's a good event, it's an incredibly like moving

[andrew_lambert]: experience right. it's an emotional experience and hopely, it's emotional

[andrew_lambert]: experience for the fans. For the players know for everybody,

[andrew_lambert]: and a couple of things Ir relevant right. First of all, think of all the

[andrew_lambert]: different elements you need to arrive at this moving experience right. So

[andrew_lambert]: you need for example, the place where you need elite athletes who play

[andrew_lambert]: really well need referees. You may, If the superbow mean, like cheerleaders

[andrew_lambert]: the media to report to build up certain things. You may be, need a crowd to

[andrew_lambert]: motivate the players to bring that sense of noise and atmosphere.

[andrew_lambert]: Um, but the result potentially right. Is this really memorable moving

[andrew_lambert]: occasion to to to your question right? So what?

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[andrew_lambert]: what is that actual experience? While I'm not sure that it needs to be a

[andrew_lambert]: single experience that everybody feels the same thing.

[pj_wehry]: Yes,

[andrew_lambert]: but I think what? what it? what it should be? What it has to be, I guess is

[andrew_lambert]: some version of that experience of satisfaction, delight, exhilaration,

[andrew_lambert]: feeling alive,

[andrew_lambert]: which is created through the participation in that event.

[andrew_lambert]: Um,

[andrew_lambert]: so maybe you know players feel something slightly different, May be an

[andrew_lambert]: amazing sense of pride and satisfaction, and say, winning the Super Bowl,

[andrew_lambert]: the fans feel something different. Maybe be Alation is a different feeling

[andrew_lambert]: to to intense feeling of pride or satisfaction.

[andrew_lambert]: But is everybody participates and everybody takes away from the event and

[andrew_lambert]: the interaction. Um, so

[pj_wehry]: which results in social cohesion.

[andrew_lambert]: exactly right and

[pj_wehry]: Yes, Yeah, which you mention in your paper. Yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: exactly? And if if you know that by taking part in these interactions you

[andrew_lambert]: can attain these kind of felt experiential goods, then it motivates you to

[andrew_lambert]: be a cooperative party to that interaction Right? So it's interesting that

[andrew_lambert]: that in a lot of ethics we talk about obligation right. they're obliged to

[andrew_lambert]: do the right thing Right. And and then, If you, if you know about history

[andrew_lambert]: ethics, one of the problems is well, you know how. how how can we be

[andrew_lambert]: motivated to do the right thing right. It can be very oppressive and justn't

[andrew_lambert]: be bothered to be a nice person, and so on. But if like in this example

[andrew_lambert]: doing the right thing is integrated with certain kinds of positive

[andrew_lambert]: experience,

[andrew_lambert]: then that ethical motivation question

[andrew_lambert]: doesn't really come up in with the same force.

[andrew_lambert]: Um,

[andrew_lambert]: you know what? What? One thing? Much to mention this point, you know no

[andrew_lambert]: theory is perfect right. So there is a famous example by a philosophical

[andrew_lambert]: Gilbert Harmon, who talks about a bunch of he the word to you, like young

[andrew_lambert]: people, Le, whatever who set fire to a cat.

[andrew_lambert]: Right And they really enjoy saying Fine to this car. You know what a great

[andrew_lambert]: laugh like, You know what a great time. And the thing is,

[pj_wehry]: I'm sorry. that's how graphic that you'retracted with.

[andrew_lambert]: it's a good example, and of course the thing is that they enjoy it. Rather

[andrew_lambert]: that the young people really enjoy. It's a buzz. it, it. It gives them like

[andrew_lambert]: a real thrill, right? I don't

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: think the cat enjoys it very much. so yeah, there is this. There's a pro

[andrew_lambert]: problem of. well, what about experiences where you know people who take part

[andrew_lambert]: who enjoy it, But it can be a some violent na, nasty experience. So you

[andrew_lambert]: know, there are some questions. I mean something we can say about that. For

[andrew_lambert]: example, you know, has to be everybody. Every sentient being taking part in

[andrew_lambert]: the experience has to

[pj_wehry]: Mm,

[andrew_lambert]: have these of some version of these positive experiences of that the cat

[andrew_lambert]: Overse would be problematic. or even we can just say, Make. maybe more

[andrew_lambert]: realistically. You know, it's not meant to be a mark of what's like, morally

[andrew_lambert]: sufficient right, Like the necessary sufficient conditions. To be confident

[andrew_lambert]: you've done the right thing right. Maybe it's just a framework by which to

[andrew_lambert]: think about ourselves and social interactions. Yeah, we still need other

[andrew_lambert]: moral norms like you know, Don't cause a necessary pain. and so on. Um,

[andrew_lambert]: you know, but that that doesn't invalidate the idea, right

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: that that just puts in context.

[pj_wehry]: I, I love. actually, that was Uh. I mentioned earlier. I had a semi troll

[pj_wehry]: question. I was trying not to like. I don't like Gotcher moments and interviews

[pj_wehry]: and I was going to ask specifically about that because the first thing I read when

[pj_wehry]: you're talking about the about human flourishing and a good society and you define

[pj_wehry]: them as well regulated, desire and social cohesion. My

[pj_wehry]: uh, my brain immediately jumped to him'. Like well, Nazi Germany had some of those

[pj_wehry]: things. Do you know what I mean and it's like you had social cohesion and you had

[pj_wehry]: people who were moving towards a goal, And uh, and I was going to ask you how you

[pj_wehry]: would answer that and that they answered it perfectly. Um,

[pj_wehry]: did not think of the cat example, But obviously that's like very similar, right.

[pj_wehry]: It's like you obviously have shared cruelty as well. Um, but I love the idea of

[pj_wehry]: using this almost more as a a tool set than like a a complete, uh, metaphysical

[pj_wehry]: framework for ethics or meta ethics. If that makes sense,

[andrew_lambert]: Yeah, E, exactly right. I mean. I. I think another

[andrew_lambert]: um

[andrew_lambert]: aspect of this is. Um.

[andrew_lambert]: You know, I think the computers are very

[andrew_lambert]: focused on. like the local social world. Whatever

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: that means. Like Whats of universality, not all of humanity, all of

[andrew_lambert]: humankind

[pj_wehry]: interesting. okay,

[andrew_lambert]: On. You know that that that can lead them to some problems. Um,

[andrew_lambert]: you know, you might have heard that the strong emphasis on family can be a

[andrew_lambert]: problem. The kind of you know, favoring your family over others, putting in

[andrew_lambert]: the family first can lead to conflicts between and public duties. duties to

[andrew_lambert]: strangers and commitment to family. That's not just a confusion problem.

[andrew_lambert]: That's the problem for all of us right. But but maybe the pro. the conviions

[andrew_lambert]: are more strongly oriented towards the family, which

[andrew_lambert]: could could create problems for those who who want a kind of universal

[andrew_lambert]: egalitarianism. But I think interesting answer, which again, it's not a so a

[andrew_lambert]: knockedow response. But it's just that you know, maybe a lot of when we ask

[andrew_lambert]: the questions about human flourishing and how to have a good life. Maybe it.

[andrew_lambert]: It's just the fact that a lot of a substantial part of the answer will be

[andrew_lambert]: bound up in kind of the local social world in which we live right, you know,

[andrew_lambert]: friends and family, and if and these kinds of local social interactions, And

[andrew_lambert]: that maybe there is a sense in which these naturally do take a kind of

[andrew_lambert]: priority. I don't want to overdo it because obviously we don't want to be

[andrew_lambert]: heartless towards strangers and distant others. But it may be that that's

[andrew_lambert]: kind of the basic material of a good life. May be very much. these kinds of

[andrew_lambert]: everyday social interactions which traditionally philosophy hasn't really

[andrew_lambert]: focused on. Right's been much more lofty and abstract in terms of general

[andrew_lambert]: rules and norms and quite abstract accounts of the good life. Lot, like

[andrew_lambert]: Aristotle, Write,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: writes a general account of a human character.

[pj_wehry]: yes, Um,

[pj_wehry]: that's where I mean you mentioned one of the things

[pj_wehry]: is. for example, Prudence becomes important and you find it here is short term

[pj_wehry]: pleasures, deferring short term pleasures for more satisfying pleasures in the

[pj_wehry]: longer term, But there is also an idea of prudences

[pj_wehry]: dealing with a local particular context.

[pj_wehry]: Am I reading that correctly? Is that is that similar or I might just way off?

[andrew_lambert]: Um, yeah, that that that? That's part of it and that's also part of the

[andrew_lambert]: answer to to the last point. another answer to the last point we were

[andrew_lambert]: talking

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: about, which is Um. another kind of to criticism would be well, isn't it

[andrew_lambert]: just like a version of hedonism Right where? it's basically saying Everybody

[andrew_lambert]: wants to be happy. Just make yourself happy. You know. Great. and what I try

[andrew_lambert]: to say in the paper because I think it's true to the confuscian, Uh

[andrew_lambert]: tradition is Um. This is clearly not just a simple notion of pleasure,

[andrew_lambert]: right, it's not just a case of makes yourself happy.

[andrew_lambert]: It's trying to. I think the confuss are, try to articulate a complex of

[andrew_lambert]: social situation, or even a complex cognitive state. While you are trying to

[andrew_lambert]: balance, respond to and balance different inputs to both retain your own

[andrew_lambert]: notion of delights. Maybe a vsion of pleasure,

[andrew_lambert]: but also have that responsibility which recognizes you know, other people

[andrew_lambert]: will have similar claims once similar kinds of experiences.

[andrew_lambert]: So it creates a kind of ethical task right where? Yeah, of course it's life

[andrew_lambert]: is partly about. you know, comforting experiences. not like pleasure and

[andrew_lambert]: delight.

[andrew_lambert]: But maybe the ethical task is to kind of create situations, interactions

[andrew_lambert]: events where

[andrew_lambert]: those who take part can all have a show in those kinds of experiences which

[andrew_lambert]: adds a a much more complex practical layer to to this idea. It's not just a

[andrew_lambert]: simple notion of you know, pursuing what clearly makes yourself happy.

[pj_wehry]: yes, so a couple of things one is you' mentioned. the idea ofequality exists

[pj_wehry]: regardless and I know that. I mean, I have a Western audience right like people

[pj_wehry]: are going to be like you know.

[pj_wehry]: But uh, one. One way, I've heard this framed and I want to know if you're

[pj_wehry]: comfortable. This is, instead of using the term inequality using the term

[pj_wehry]: asymmetrical, so for instance, since even with the super boowl example,

[pj_wehry]: the the experience that of players who have put a lot more work into Uh, the super

[pj_wehry]: boowl. the than the fans do have a very different experience then the fans do. But

[pj_wehry]: even though it's different, it is at the same time shared because they are parts

[pj_wehry]: of one hole.

[andrew_lambert]: Yeah, yeah, I, that that's it right. It doesn't have to be certainly the

[andrew_lambert]: experiential side. It doesn't have to be a kind of a stricter quality either

[andrew_lambert]: in terms of the experience itself, the emotion, if you like, or even like

[andrew_lambert]: the intensity. The the degree to which it's felt. Um, I would also say as

[andrew_lambert]: well to to to a point about you know, inequality, and A, as symmetry. Um.

[andrew_lambert]: The Conficians have various things that they, they say about this right,

[andrew_lambert]: which is when we say inequalityj, Just like you said, we don't mean some

[andrew_lambert]: kind of really morally worrying notion of exploitation. And you

[pj_wehry]: right,

[andrew_lambert]: know this kind of por imbalance, which which can exist and can exist in all

[andrew_lambert]: all sorts of locations and places for short, but I, I think their idea is,

[andrew_lambert]: you know what we say, parents and children are unequal in some sense, or

[andrew_lambert]: there's asymmetrical relationship. We don't mean that in some kind of a s.

[andrew_lambert]: Insidious sense of, and, therefore all children are going to like Lod it

[andrew_lambert]: over. so all parents will load over their children because they're so

[andrew_lambert]: powerful. What what we? What what we mean In for the confusions are things

[andrew_lambert]: like. Well, at least the traditional answer is

[andrew_lambert]: children should so love. Parents have a sense of gratitude. maybe even obey

[andrew_lambert]: parents and again, not obey just in this blind obedient sense. But maybe

[andrew_lambert]: because, if if you pay attention to what parents say, if you think about

[andrew_lambert]: what they say that potentially you'll learn more right than if

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: you just kind of know whatever, whatever, If you actually listen to what

[andrew_lambert]: they're trying to say, Think about whether it's reasonable you. No, that

[andrew_lambert]: there are ways in which a notion of obedience isn't just blind obedience. So

[andrew_lambert]: that that's the child's side and the Pa' side may be, You know a sense of

[andrew_lambert]: responsibility, right. I have to look after my child after, provide for

[andrew_lambert]: them, so there may be kind of inequality or asymmetry, but it's it's

[andrew_lambert]: potentially benign, right. It's potentially a natural state of affairs, but

[andrew_lambert]: which can lead to both sides doing.

[andrew_lambert]: I, what you call mo, morally write things, or at least no sort of um,

[andrew_lambert]: wholesome positive things, such as you know, having a sense of gratitude,

[andrew_lambert]: having a sense of responsibility to care.

[andrew_lambert]: So yeah, I, I think you, you're right that it's It's a sensitive topic to

[andrew_lambert]: talk about inequality, but I think the confusians. Who? who don't have any

[andrew_lambert]: any insight into twentyent century liberal thought,

[andrew_lambert]: But it's just fundamental fact of of human life, and I'm not entirely

[andrew_lambert]: endorsing that view. I'm just saying

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: that that's kind of very honest starting position.

[pj_wehry]: well, and you have to, you can't be anacchroonistic. You know, reading back and be

[pj_wehry]: like well, they should have haed answers for today's problems. They are addressing

[pj_wehry]: their problems at the time, right, Um, something, you, uh. I. I. as I'm hearing

[pj_wehry]: this, I feel a lot in our society as our side, society becomes more pluralistic as

[pj_wehry]: our society, um cult, like globalism increases, we have different cultures growing

[pj_wehry]: together. I feel that more time is taken up by negotiation, and one of the things

[pj_wehry]: that Confucianism gives us is a moral value to ritual, which saves us both time,

[pj_wehry]: effort, and uh, the possibility of bad negotiation. Because there's there's value

[pj_wehry]: in just the ritual itself in guiding us into these uh, shared states of uh, moral.

[pj_wehry]: valuable. Uh, are these

[pj_wehry]: valuable moral shared states of mind? If that makes sense, Am I am I tracking with

[pj_wehry]: you? There is that. if I'm saying something inappropriate to what you're saying,

[pj_wehry]: I, I'd love to know.

[andrew_lambert]: Yeah, no, no, no, I mean, I think obviously Rit was a very important part of

[andrew_lambert]: confusion thought, which we haven't explicly mentioned so far, but I think

[andrew_lambert]: it's consistent with this idea of like we talked about the sporting event

[pj_wehry]: Yes, yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: Right at that example. You know you could think of that as as a site in

[andrew_lambert]: which all sorts of rituals are played out. right, You

[pj_wehry]: all the time,

[andrew_lambert]: sing the National

[andrew_lambert]: this half time superbwl show. So so the confusion of what would point out,

[andrew_lambert]: and and various, T. twentyentith centuries of Confucian scholars have said

[andrew_lambert]: this. You know how important ritual is to human life

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[andrew_lambert]: how much structure it provides. So that again, although some people will

[andrew_lambert]: have potention a negative view of ritual, at least the word that it

[andrew_lambert]: associates with, you know

[pj_wehry]: right,

[andrew_lambert]: having to attend religious service as a child every Sunday, and you know,

[andrew_lambert]: kind of fussy kind of troublesome, kind of little rituals and etiquette, you

[andrew_lambert]: have to do. Obviously, the convisions have a much more positive view, And

[andrew_lambert]: and there has been lots of work done on what's good about ritual, And you'd

[andrew_lambert]: just give you what one example, um that that. The first thing is for the

[andrew_lambert]: confusions to come back to society of the positives of shared social

[andrew_lambert]: interaction. It can send all sorts of messages Right If if you don't use

[andrew_lambert]: ritual, like if you go to a funeral, you know, you try to greet the the

[andrew_lambert]: bereaved at the funeral, and you don't really know what to say. You might

[andrew_lambert]: wind up saying something you know a bit awkward and makes them feel worse,

[andrew_lambert]: you know, and you know whatever it might be. But if if there's a ritually

[andrew_lambert]: accepted way of expressing your condolences, but you know, then there's an

[andrew_lambert]: easy way in which you can kind of connect with that person. You know that

[andrew_lambert]: there's one way which ritual kind of regulates our interactions like smooth

[andrew_lambert]: the edges and stuff.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: It also does things such as go. Go ahead,

[pj_wehry]: I was going to say it. also, it allows other people to participate. You'll often

[pj_wehry]: see people saying the words along with you may not as loud when you have those

[pj_wehry]: shared prayers or eulogies or whatever it is, so it becomes more of a shared

[pj_wehry]: experience with the we is. You can't do that if someone's extemporeneously, you

[pj_wehry]: know, shooting off the of the co, um, uh, forgive me, just a uh,

[pj_wehry]: allow me to indulge you for a second. I, so my background I, I'm a devout

[pj_wehry]: Christian came from a very conservative, like independent Fundamental Baptist, and

[pj_wehry]: one of the things that I have come to appreciate like I grew up with. Y. If you

[pj_wehry]: wrote out your prayers beforehand, you weren't really praying and you should never

[pj_wehry]: use other people's prayers. and some of the prayers I heard extemporaneously. In

[pj_wehry]: fact, the majority of them were very poor, and one of the things I've come to

[pj_wehry]: really appreciate is exactly this notion, right like that's. It's something that

[pj_wehry]: we do together and it's something that is well thought out and it's a very. It's a

[pj_wehry]: very western,

[pj_wehry]: uh, kind of distortion. Honestly, that. uh, if it's just extemporaneous it's

[pj_wehry]: somehow more authentic.

[pj_wehry]: If that

[andrew_lambert]: yeah, yeah,

[pj_wehry]: makes sense.

[andrew_lambert]: no, that. that's a great point. I mean that

[andrew_lambert]: you know that there's another area of of research in contemporary Chinese

[andrew_lambert]: thought about genius and originality, Right,

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[andrew_lambert]: and just like to your a point right, we tend to think of creativity as being

[andrew_lambert]: this active absolute creativity. Right, nobody in the history' ever done

[andrew_lambert]: this before, right and that, and we attach the highest value to that kind of

[andrew_lambert]: outstanding genius like originality, Right.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: but like you say, first of all, that obscures the number of fails right on

[andrew_lambert]: the way to try and get to out these terrible individual

[andrew_lambert]: that go wrong. But, but but also in in in the convision side of things, that

[andrew_lambert]: originality or creativity is more about the kind of the appropriate and

[andrew_lambert]: sometimes creative reworking of what's already there Right. So it kind of

[andrew_lambert]: taking tradition, and it, adding or subtracting, or just tweaking it in some

[andrew_lambert]: way that that kind of meets present needs, which is also creative, but avoid

[andrew_lambert]: some of the pitfalls that that that you mentioned about you know, just

[andrew_lambert]: trying to be too original, too creative of not having any sort of precedence

[andrew_lambert]: to work with.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, I think it's interesting for me to see the Western idea of authorship

[pj_wehry]: breakdown down. I was talking to Doctor Braver about this in a previous interview.

[pj_wehry]: How A I like. I personally felt this, and I, my backgrounds in philosophical

[pj_wehry]: hermics. You think I wouldd understand this better, but uh, I remember being very

[pj_wehry]: bothered by a I creating scripts

[pj_wehry]: because I'm like that's cheating. They're not real authors and it's like what does

[pj_wehry]: that even mean And that's just uh. it's interesting to see what's baked into. Even

[pj_wehry]: you know, my, uh, my world view and that I've had to work with, so I'm sorry, I'm

[pj_wehry]: I'm getting off topic, but it's just really. It's really fascinating to me to see

[pj_wehry]: these alternative views and uh, the value in them.

[andrew_lambert]: Yeah, and you know again, none of these things are Ab critique. When I

[andrew_lambert]: present of some of the Confuscian ideas, like the importance of tradition to

[andrew_lambert]: the Confucian right, they do think that you know having a sense of your own

[andrew_lambert]: tradition, it may be importantt psychologically, but also enables you to

[andrew_lambert]: deal with the present right. You have these resources. What to we do in the

[andrew_lambert]: past When these problems arose and of course you know the European, There

[andrew_lambert]: are sorts of reasons Why there are some problems with just relying on

[andrew_lambert]: tradition, but still

[andrew_lambert]: you know. There are lots of thoughtful things we can say about the

[andrew_lambert]: importance of tradition, which may maybe get lost in in a rush to kind of

[andrew_lambert]: see traditions again. Something potentially restrictive and oppressive.

[pj_wehry]: Absolutely, Um, One of the other questions I wanted to ask. Uh, you mentioned.

[pj_wehry]: there's a threefold Uh process, Uh poetry, you know, in a learning delight in

[pj_wehry]: poetry and then learning ritual and learning music.

[pj_wehry]: Um. Is there something are? Is that just a good model? Is that uh, a good way to

[pj_wehry]: proceed? Is there something fundamental to those three steps? So is that is that

[pj_wehry]: more of a fundamental universal human experience thing? Or is that just one good

[pj_wehry]: way for people to achieve this kind of shared inters, Subjectjective, Uh, state of

[pj_wehry]: delight, Eight,

[andrew_lambert]: Yeah, so that that's that comes? It's a famous passage from the Analxs or

[andrew_lambert]: the Alex of Confucius, the canonical bu of of the Confucian traditions, you

[andrew_lambert]: might even say like the Bible of Confucianism because it's the the thetext

[andrew_lambert]: which so much goes back to Um.

[andrew_lambert]: It's a passage eight point eighth, a bucket, um passage number eight, and I

[andrew_lambert]: think it can be translated in different ways, but it says something like Um

[andrew_lambert]: arouse through poetry established through ritual and completed through

[andrew_lambert]: music.

[andrew_lambert]: And I also work on a a a twentieth century Chinese, uh, thinker

[andrew_lambert]: intellectual, Chd leads a whole heat. He actually passed away recently, but

[andrew_lambert]: he um, wrote a lot about that passage and he sees it as a

[andrew_lambert]: a kind of a blueprint for an idea of self cultivation, in which the goal is

[andrew_lambert]: to be able to create the kinds of social events where what we're talking

[andrew_lambert]: about. I. I think that the idea is P. Poetry's the first age and that should

[andrew_lambert]: be understood quite quite broadly to an include things like literature, Um,

[andrew_lambert]: maybe even all sorts of R. Written, writing and texts, and so on that

[andrew_lambert]: there's a way in which you acquire the kind of knowledge you need in order

[andrew_lambert]: to interact with the world.

[andrew_lambert]: Ritual is kind of the second stage and again, Maybe

[andrew_lambert]: not just ritual. Like we think about formal rituals, Like going to a A you,

[andrew_lambert]: a, a church or a synagogue or a, a wedding or a funeral. But like Bill, like

[andrew_lambert]: we talked about what general notions like etiqute ceremony, even habit,

[andrew_lambert]: maybe the way people habitually interact, even though that's not recognized

[andrew_lambert]: as some kind of formal ritual,

[andrew_lambert]: the way in which when we take part in all when when when we engage and learn

[andrew_lambert]: all of these kind of ritualized habitual ways of interacting, we become more

[andrew_lambert]: able to kind of move the world around. So so you know, think about greetings

[andrew_lambert]: right when you, um, when you're young, Maybe just know to try and shape

[andrew_lambert]: people's hands, and then you travel around the world and you see some people

[andrew_lambert]: bow. Some people make the a kind of vious signs of respect, Right that are

[andrew_lambert]: char Chinese notions, and you acquire more talks. Right. more more ways in

[andrew_lambert]: which you can respond to the situation,

[andrew_lambert]: you know, and again, this idea of ritual and ceremony. Maybe that's what it

[andrew_lambert]: means. We learn all that kind of social grammar. As we go along, we acquire

[andrew_lambert]: more and more of it. so in any given situation we're more able to come up

[andrew_lambert]: with something that is, in some sense the appropriate response. right.

[andrew_lambert]: That's that's a second case. So the first was like conceptual, intellectual,

[andrew_lambert]: kind of learning about poetry, literature, maybe even history, history

[andrew_lambert]: texts. Then you've got the practical one of kind of ritual and kind of

[andrew_lambert]: mastering social interactions, customs, habits, and so on,

[andrew_lambert]: and M, maybe the third stage competed through music.

[andrew_lambert]: It is I, I read that slightly metaphorically. Doesn't liips? You mean you

[andrew_lambert]: become a musician. It just means.

[andrew_lambert]: Like the the example we talked about at the start, This idea of, like the

[andrew_lambert]: The musical Jam or

[pj_wehry]: He,

[andrew_lambert]: the large classical orchestra, how you learn to blend things together to

[andrew_lambert]: produce a certain effect Right when you listen to, you know a great piece of

[andrew_lambert]: music that's carefully put together and composed, And you know Aed, and so

[andrew_lambert]: on, Um. It creates these effects in you. Right you have these. you know,

[andrew_lambert]: great emotional responses to great music. Um. And maybe that's like the

[andrew_lambert]: highest stage. That's the outcome of this process of

[andrew_lambert]: learning self cultivation. Right That started with Um.

[andrew_lambert]: poetry went through ritual and culminated in this kind of musical

[andrew_lambert]: sensibility, Right that? it doesn't let you mean making music per se, but it

[andrew_lambert]: means that that same kind of sensibility, that same sensitivity to the

[andrew_lambert]: world, as if you were making a great musical. Uh, production.

[pj_wehry]: because, the important thing with rhythm isn't the mathematical construct of it,

[pj_wehry]: it's the. It's the social side of it that you are working together, the

[pj_wehry]: participatory, that the instruments are in sync. Whether whatever that beat is,

[pj_wehry]: you can actually adjust that, and we see that even at the highest level with jazz

[pj_wehry]: where they are frees styling together, which blows my mind. I can't. I can't even

[pj_wehry]: keep a beat

[pj_wehry]: my own. Um. And so I mean is that idea of rhythm? It almost seems like that music

[pj_wehry]: has that. Um. You have something very personal with poetry where you are accepting

[pj_wehry]: the inters, subjectbjective state, the in like you are accepting other people's

[pj_wehry]: shars. my uh state of mind, And then there's kind of this intermediary

[pj_wehry]: passage with uh ritual where you're starting to understand the rules of the game

[pj_wehry]: and it ends with you participating in the inter in inter subectivity in this

[pj_wehry]: shared state with everybody. Is that is that one way to read? it is that

[andrew_lambert]: Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. um.

[andrew_lambert]: I've just start his work for music, which is kind of interesting. I mean,

[andrew_lambert]: I'm talking about it quite so metaphorically as a general process which

[pj_wehry]: right?

[andrew_lambert]: you can take from. like how do you produce good music? You can take some of

[andrew_lambert]: those skills and sensibilities and put them into the world of everyday

[andrew_lambert]: social interaction, or even you might say, ethics, right. Um, But you also

[andrew_lambert]: note that the confusians

[andrew_lambert]: are. Sometimes they have an interest in music, which isn't just that kind of

[andrew_lambert]: abstract, kind. of. They actually think that music can directly influence

[andrew_lambert]: people, so

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: I, I don't know if you're a musician. I used to be orccasion, whatever

[andrew_lambert]: minor notes, right, minor keys, right. Most people know that a minor key

[andrew_lambert]: produces a certain kind of response. It's like sorrow. It's mournful. When

[andrew_lambert]: people use minor keys in music, they often evoc a little bit like sorrow or

[andrew_lambert]: sadness. Right, so that that is to say, a particular kind of note produces a

[andrew_lambert]: particular kind of emotion

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[andrew_lambert]: and the confusions of lot of confidence about this. Maybe more than is

[andrew_lambert]: warranted given what we know about musical theory today, but basically think

[andrew_lambert]: that you can use music to directly generate certain emotional responses. So

[andrew_lambert]: for example, maybe sorrowful music produces a shared feeling of sorrow in

[andrew_lambert]: everybody who's listening to it. There they talk about grand music that

[andrew_lambert]: produces a feeling of like vastness, and all those who listen to it

[andrew_lambert]: so in that very direct kind of causal sense, that your music can also create

[andrew_lambert]: shared experiences by certain notes producing certain emotional responses.

[pj_wehry]: and there's a

[andrew_lambert]: So that's just practical level, which you again, it all connects together.

[andrew_lambert]: because it's not just a metaphor they actually think as a causal pathway.

[andrew_lambert]: there.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, and I think there's a certain connectedness, which I think is part of this

[pj_wehry]: whole discussion between spirit and body where Uh, you have in many ways a mental

[pj_wehry]: or spiritual, and I'm using these terms very loosely phenomenon that it has, Uh,

[pj_wehry]: you know, it's psychosomatic. It has uh, physical effects. Uh, I have a friend who

[pj_wehry]: every time you listens to Rack Mananov's Uh, piano concerto number two, he gets

[pj_wehry]: goose bumps. you know, I mean, and that's like, Uh. and that's I think most people

[pj_wehry]: feel something similar to that. You know. and they. there are studies about those

[pj_wehry]: kind of physical effects. And for I think, uh, if I'm understanding

[pj_wehry]: what you're uh, writing about here, that's very important that it's it's It's

[pj_wehry]: putting everybody in harmony right, not just uh, with themselves, but also with

[pj_wehry]: others.

[pj_wehry]: which is why you use the A. use. The example of cooking. You know, like cooking

[pj_wehry]: like you have to. You have to work with the ingredients and different ingredients

[pj_wehry]: with different parts of the year Makes a big difference, and how those ingredients

[pj_wehry]: taste, cause

[pj_wehry]: squash can be very different, depending on when you pick it, while, what time of

[pj_wehry]: year. How long it' been sitting out? That sort of thing

[andrew_lambert]: Yeah, good, absolute. So so y it works at that level of Um.

[andrew_lambert]: How how do you blend these ingredients, whether it's musical components or

[andrew_lambert]: or or food?

[andrew_lambert]: Um,

[andrew_lambert]: And also you know somebody I talk about in the paper. A little bit is is

[andrew_lambert]: resonance, which I'm not an expert in the topic. I think it's again is some

[andrew_lambert]: of the people becoming interested in,

[andrew_lambert]: But another level here, I may be connecting to music. is.

[andrew_lambert]: Um. It is a fact, for example, that when people build large bridges, this is

[andrew_lambert]: so. I don't exactly how this relates to this interesting fact.

[andrew_lambert]: They often bridges come to resonate. That is vibrate. in some sense, the

[andrew_lambert]: same frequency of the land to which they're attuached.

[andrew_lambert]: You know that is, in some sense they come at sync with the land mass to

[andrew_lambert]: which they attach

[andrew_lambert]: how this works. I. We don't care, but the point is this idea of residence of

[andrew_lambert]: somehow resonating with what surround you is actually a theme in inonfusion.

[andrew_lambert]: thought and again, it's another theme to be to be developed and unpacked

[andrew_lambert]: Because

[andrew_lambert]: you. you know.

[andrew_lambert]: However, residance works as a vehicle that. that's again part of this idea

[andrew_lambert]: right that we can come in to sing some sort of coordination with those

[andrew_lambert]: around us in ways that's mutually beneficial to all or all involved.

[pj_wehry]: is that idea of harmony with nature? I mean, I'm assuming, but

[pj_wehry]: you know that's dangerous, especially in philosophy. but Ims. like, I'm assuming

[pj_wehry]: that they have that harmony with nature as part of this idea.

[andrew_lambert]: Um.

[pj_wehry]: Or maybe not so much.

[pj_wehry]: Or maybe not so much.

[andrew_lambert]: so I, I mean, I mean

[andrew_lambert]: y, yes or no, Actually, I mean

[pj_wehry]: Okay,

[andrew_lambert]: one of those of so influential Confuscian tax as to think of the the

[andrew_lambert]: universal as a cosmos,

[andrew_lambert]: and in the Coviician tradition, you know, for better or for worse, there

[andrew_lambert]: isn't a belief in in a created deity, rightte that sort of created the

[andrew_lambert]: world, and we make sense of the word via a conception of of that deity.

[andrew_lambert]: Rather, this is idea that humans and the cosmos are kind of co, creatives.

[andrew_lambert]: That humans influence the cosms by contributing to history, and and great

[andrew_lambert]: deeds, and so on,

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[andrew_lambert]: and the cosmos, infants humans by, for example, the way that the natural

[andrew_lambert]: climate works, you know in in winters and summers, and humans have to adjust

[andrew_lambert]: to to the cosmos.

[andrew_lambert]: Um.

[andrew_lambert]: So at that level again there is just this notion of of integration of of

[andrew_lambert]: coherence, Um. So, in that sense, yes, there is a kind of unity of humans in

[andrew_lambert]: nature, a harmony, if you like,

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[andrew_lambert]: Um, but often in the confusions, it's not so much about. you know that the

[andrew_lambert]: countryside, or or the seasons, its almost like religious idea that the

[andrew_lambert]: largest thing that there is is something that we, which we are so part of,

[andrew_lambert]: and it's part of us and we, mutually, individual and cosmos, kind of

[andrew_lambert]: mutually interacts and creates. Um.

[andrew_lambert]: That that gaism has more explicit, Uh, accounts of Um, connection with the

[andrew_lambert]: natural world in the in the sense, may that that you mean, in terms of you

[andrew_lambert]: know, um,

[andrew_lambert]: responding to the seasons, like farming at the right times, ploughing at the

[andrew_lambert]: right times, harvesting the right times.

[pj_wehry]: sorry, I mean this is literally. Obviously, this is not my my field, so this is

[pj_wehry]: really fascinating. thank you. Um,

[pj_wehry]: kind of as we wrap up here,

[pj_wehry]: Um one. thank you so much for being on.

[pj_wehry]: I did want to ask. Oh, yeah. uh. so we'd start off by saying, How can you lead a

[pj_wehry]: good life? Specifically? You know what the Confuian answer to that if you could

[pj_wehry]: give. Like a, just a short summary of

[pj_wehry]: what? What are the insights with the unique contributions that someone can take

[pj_wehry]: away from this discussion today That would help them live the good life

[pj_wehry]: to Western audience. Right,

[andrew_lambert]: Yeah, I think

[andrew_lambert]: one of the ways I also frame this issue in some other writing on this that

[andrew_lambert]: I've done is you know, we often think about the good life as being

[andrew_lambert]: Um. We, we think very careful about the shape our own life should take

[andrew_lambert]: right. So sometimes when people are young and they have a very specific set

[andrew_lambert]: of goals right by the time they're twenty one. They want a degree by their

[andrew_lambert]: time. they know twenty six or whatever they want. A Phd. By the time they're

[andrew_lambert]: thirty, they want a really well paying job. They want a six figure salary,

[andrew_lambert]: or may even be a millionaire, Right, and that they think of their lives in

[andrew_lambert]: terms of specific goals that they want to achieve, and achieving those goals

[andrew_lambert]: means satisfaction right. And in the sense it's very some goal oriented

[andrew_lambert]: right. There's a clear sense of wanting to achieve certain things that will

[andrew_lambert]: bring satisfaction

[andrew_lambert]: Un. That's fine. Who's going to argue with that? But maybe what this

[andrew_lambert]: confuscian account says is the idea of like a meaning for life or a good

[andrew_lambert]: life isn't necessarily one in which we have these kind of goals and aims,

[andrew_lambert]: and we instrumentally reason towards them and figure out how to achieve

[andrew_lambert]: them. Rather we think about life in terms of how every day consists of a

[andrew_lambert]: certain number, of, like a rolling series of social interactions. We may not

[andrew_lambert]: know before the day begins who who's going to be involved in those

[andrew_lambert]: interactions what those interactions will be.

[andrew_lambert]: But maybe if for each of those interactions that we move through in the

[andrew_lambert]: course of a day we can achieve this kind of quality of interaction that

[andrew_lambert]: we're talking about, the kind of kind of viscal sense of satisfaction or

[andrew_lambert]: delight or joy that comes from successful interaction.

[andrew_lambert]: And we do that for each of these rolling seas of interactions that we're

[andrew_lambert]: involved in, And then the next day the same and the next day the same. You

[andrew_lambert]: know then then maybe this is a picture of a good life, which

[andrew_lambert]: you know is a good life. But it's just not that same life where it was very.

[andrew_lambert]: I have to have this. I have to achieve these goals. Thewise you know, if I

[andrew_lambert]: don' fulfil my bucket list, then you know what? What have I done? You know.

[andrew_lambert]: it is a kind of a challenging notion that maybe the good life is, You know a

[andrew_lambert]: bit more below the radar, right it? It's It's none about big dramatic

[andrew_lambert]: things. It's more about the quality of interaction because their social

[andrew_lambert]: interactions make up so much of your life Right that. that's the idea that

[andrew_lambert]: they are that that that roars substance of human life. You know, not, you

[andrew_lambert]: know, philosophers living in a cave, thinking about the true meaning of

[andrew_lambert]: existence. Right, that's really wrong outside.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: but nor necessarily that modern idea of being very. You know, having this

[andrew_lambert]: plann this goal to to realize, write this big practical aim that you want to

[andrew_lambert]: bring about. So I hit the confesion account of the good life as as I try to

[andrew_lambert]: present it, At least, I think it's an interesting alternative, Right. It

[andrew_lambert]: sort of says maybe that that that the the best life is one which pays

[andrew_lambert]: attention to these kind of inevitable rolling series of interactions you

[andrew_lambert]: arere going to be involved in.

[pj_wehry]: thank you for that answer. Um,

[pj_wehry]: one very inspiring, very provoking me. As I'm thinking through this, there' almost

[pj_wehry]: a still quality to this idea that by situating ourselves within the hole

[pj_wehry]: and giving up what we think of as control, we actually gain back more control over

[pj_wehry]: the good life, Right because a lot of that goal setting is often affected by

[pj_wehry]: things that we don't have control over. And so I think that is a real challenge to

[pj_wehry]: our contemporary culture. So Um,

[pj_wehry]: really, go ahead,

[andrew_lambert]: I. I think that's although, I would just add that

[andrew_lambert]: it's not. It isn't a sense retaining control. Because as we sort talked

[andrew_lambert]: about, it is a very skilled process right.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[andrew_lambert]: It's not just um,

[andrew_lambert]: just like rocking up to things and hoping it goes well right, it's a process

[andrew_lambert]: of learning and cultivation.

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[andrew_lambert]: That means the person has the skills and the sensibility to to to to bring

[andrew_lambert]: about these qualities of interaction. So it's a little bit different from

[andrew_lambert]: like a purely stoic notion of an Ey con controller. I just accept it, Um.

[andrew_lambert]: but, but you take your point that it's different from this more active kind

[andrew_lambert]: of aggressive notion of how do I achieve this, this goal that I really want

[andrew_lambert]: to achieve

[pj_wehry]: I, I'm glad you said that be cause, you're you're very right. It's that we are

[pj_wehry]: constantly working on our skill set to deal with individual rolling interactions,

[pj_wehry]: and that we have control over right now instead of worrying so much about the

[pj_wehry]: future. But that it is. it is a skill set that we develop Um. And that's even like

[pj_wehry]: that's where the three fold you know, poetry ritual and Um. music comes in like

[pj_wehry]: that sort of blueprints. and like, like you said it, it sounds like they'. You

[pj_wehry]: could have multiple blueprints, but they, they should follow something similar

[pj_wehry]: where you're moving into this kind of shared inter subectivity. It's a very social

[pj_wehry]: thing, Um.

[pj_wehry]: Doctor Lambert, thank you so much that that was. Uh. I. I could talk about the

[pj_wehry]: stuff all dayve. I want to be conscious of your time. Uh, and so, uh, thank you

[pj_wehry]: for for coming on.

[andrew_lambert]: you. I enjoy it. Um, yeah, I, I hope the listens find find interesting.

[pj_wehry]: Oh, I'm sure they will. This has been great.