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This week, Krysia, Ian, and Zoe discuss the research to practice gap. They explore why churches don't always put into practice advice given by researchers. The episode explore issues such as burnout, collaboration with others, and accessibility of resources.
The transcript of the episode is available here: https://share.transistor.fm/s/fefadd2a/transcript.txt
If you have any questions, or just want to say hi, email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on twitter @autismtheology.
This podcast is brought to you by The University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology.
The artwork for this podcast uses the Centre for Autism and Theology Logo, created by Holly Russel.
Creators & Guests
Host
Ian Lasch
PhD candidate at the university of Aberdeen researching autism and the Imago Dei
Host
What is Autism and Theology Podcast?
The Autism and Theology Podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways in which both faith and non-faith communities can enable autistic people to flourish.
Our episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every month. We have a variety of guests who are related in some way to the field of autism and theology. Some are academics, others are people with life stories to share, and some are both!
We also release CATChat every third Wednesday of the month. These are shorter and more informal episodes where your hosts will share news and give you as listeners an opportunity to ask questions and share your stories.
Krysia: Hello and welcome to this episode of Cat Chat for the Autism and Theology podcast. I'm Krysia and I'm joined by Zoe and Ian and we're so excited you've joined us for this week's Cat Chat. This week we are addressing the research to practice gap in regards to autism research in churches and why churches may not be, may be picking up the things that are addressed in research or some of the barriers that may be faced.
Some of the ideas that we had as a group, um, and it's also follows on from the conversation that I had with Precious Sango back in February, um, includes kind of the barriers to funding and also church finances as well. The fact that churches may not necessarily always share resources. Sometimes churches are quite siloed or connections may not be there.
And also that clergy are generalists. Generally, there'll be the idea of a Schrodinger's autistic. If the autistic person is there, there'll be a priority. But if they're not seen, it might not be a priority as much. So Zoe or Ian, I wondered, what thoughts you had on this.
Ian: Yeah. Um, so I'll, I'll jump in the, the, um, the, uh, speaking as a clergy person. One of the things that I can speak to is the idea that clergy by and large, um, because most clergy, um, At least in the Episcopal Church, working as a single clergy person in a congregation, which means they're in charge of a little bit of everything.
And it's not necessarily that clergy don't care about making autistic friendly spaces, but what clergy are looking for when it comes to inclusion, when it comes to any sort of programmatic response to, um, Including someone or, or making space for someone is I need a checklist, right? I need it. I need a list of steps that I can take that shows it.
Once this is accomplished, then this problem is resolved. And if you delve into the research on autism and autistics at all, what you find is. There is no checklist, right? You know, if you meet one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. So some people who are sensory seeking want smells and bells and loud organ that they can feel in their chest and people singing at the top of their lungs.
And some people want a quiet, sense free experience to the, to the degree that that's possible. And those are, um, irreconcilable to some degree. And so finding that out, you end up just sort of. just stumped as to what you can do if you, if you don't have someone that you know, or can say, I want to accommodate this person, not just autistic people more generally.
So I think it's, I mean, maybe this is a little more optimistic than, than, than clergy deserve, but I think clergy would, if it were, if it were easier to understand and to, And to implement the research that they would be interested in doing it, potentially, um, obviously there are limitations to that. But, but I think finding, you know, if you try to look into it, there are so many different, um, so many different hot button issues, so many different ways of approaching it that aren't always going to be universal and aren't always going to be appropriate.
And so you wind up thinking, I can't do anything. Um, and just clergy just sort of throw up their hands.
Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that also ties into the amount of research that's been done on like clergy and burnout and exhaustion from so many factors. But I think it also becomes very hard, like as you said, there's a lot of little things that ministers, pastors, church leaders are dealing with.
So, It can be quite hard to just, like, add one more thing onto your workload, which, as Ian said, like, there isn't a checklist for it. It's just like, oh, here's something else you have to do and you're going to need to work it out. But I think that's where there is research outputs being created. Um, but then I guess it's just more things to research and yeah.
It's a tricky one but I do think like burnout and just almost even like fear of burnout and feeling overwhelmed does tie into this conversation so much. But then we also need to remember that a lot of people coming into churches are feeling that way and that's not being helped by the way church practice is often done.
So yeah it's like like a two fold thing there. There's a lot going on, it's very complex, and we need to think of the needs of clergy as well as thinking of the needs of autistic people, I guess, um, which, yeah, they don't need to be exclusive though, but I wonder what
Ian: One thought that just occurs to me is a lot of churches will, on their website, have something for newcomers, right? Like, here's what you can expect when you visit for the first time. Maybe, I mean, obviously not every church can be everything to all people, but if we had some set of set of sensory expectations outlined there as well, then that would be doing something at least to signal A, this is a space that has considered you as an autistic person and what you may need.
B, does this actually, does our, our pattern actually fit what you are looking for? Um, but I, I just wonder if that's, if that's something like a small measure that that churches could do to at least signal this is not a congregation that is inherently going to be antagonistic to autistic people, which unfortunately a number of them are.
Zoe: Yeah, almost just kind of that outlining like, okay, we're not perfect but at least we can tell you what to expect. Um, yeah, it doesn't actually take that long for someone to put that together.
Krysia: It was almost like some of these suggestions that we're having reflect what I would call the organisational setup and culture of churches, I think, especially where we have a lot of volunteers who give their time freely, so it's much harder to be able to perhaps, Tell someone you don't want them to do something if it's hella helpful to someone else if they're giving their own time freely.
And where a lot of clergy perhaps on in different church setups might have different amounts of support from the equivalent kind of people higher up as well, so I think it really sheds a light on setting up This research to practice gap, I think, is probably going to be reflected in other things as well as in the research on autism and theology as well.
Ian: And I think that, I think you're right, I think that most churches rely on a lot of, um, Cynically, you could call it unpaid labor or I mean, I, I hate to ever use the word volunteer in conjunction with church because they're not volunteering. They're engaged in ministry, right? And one thing that that lens helps do too is it's very, very difficult to fire a volunteer.
Right? But if you are engaged in ministry, you have a responsibility to do it right, and to do it, and to do it well, and to do it considering all the sort of forces at play. And so if people are engaged in ministry, A, that means that you can take more of an active hand in saying, here's how we need to do it, but B, it also, I mean, it also means, Because you're right, that this is what drives a lot of the church, and if you don't have people in the church who are obviously autistic, then it's not a major concern for a lot of people, so there isn't going to be a lot of energy behind it, right?
People aren't going to get really psyched up about making a really welcoming autistic space if they don't know it that they know any autistic people. Right. Um, the problem with that mindset is then if you try and implement those, once you finally have an autistic person in church, then it becomes a referendum on that person, rather than an attempt at including an underserved demographic or a group of people that we don't currently accommodate.
Right. So that's always. That's, that's difficult too, because you don't ever want it to feel like this is acceptance or rejection of you personally, autistic person who has just graced our doorstep, but you, you, it's really hard to get people excited and motivated to, to really do much if they don't know for sure that there's already autistic people there.
Zoe: Yeah, and I think that ties to the idea of kind of like collaboration with other communities and with other churches, because actually like, Like, churches, yeah, okay, they're like individual groups of people, but the whole kind of Christian image of churches is that it's one body. I think it kind of comes to that, seeing another church do something and not saying, oh well that would be a better church for that person to go to, but actually saying like, how can I learn from this other community that is also part of our community as a wider view of the church, and how can we learn from each other so that overall things can be more inclusive and that people aren't just like sent to specific churches, but actually anywhere they go is a welcoming space because churches are collaborating and working with one another.
I mean there's plenty like worship conferences where churches will get together and exchange their like expertise on music and how they do worship set, like music worship setups in churches and those things are really cool to see churches collaborating in that way.
Zoe: So I guess the same could be said for being inclusive spaces for autistic people or just anyone.
Krysia: And I guess they would also In my mind, it should be collaboration between churches for exactly the reasons you said, and there should also be collaboration with people in the church and people who perhaps are outside of it as well.
So as we know, from some of Leon's work and some of my work that autistic people can find church really difficult and may leave or just go back and find a space that works for them. And actually what might be quite useful is almost having a way that people can be heard and collaborated with, um, where the power dynamics are considered, but not where emotional labour is sought.
And I think that's really important because it adds an extra layer to the collaboration of inter church, inter experience, inter identity, making it really, really, really special. I guess, although what I'm explaining probably sounds quite difficult, especially when clergy are just so, so stretched, and they have, obviously, things like checklists might be seen as really, really good.
I guess what's really important to consider is how can we make the small steps to make it kind of ease the load for everybody.
Ian: And on the, on the subject of collaboration, one of the things that I, that I do occasionally see in the, in the sharing or collaboration realm is, unfortunately, just, I mean, I don't, I don't mean this negatively, but, but really just transposing, or, or totally shamelessly copying something somebody else has done.
And we're, we do this a lot in the church, and I don't, I don't, I don't get my feelings hurt about it. Like, if I put together a liturgy, and someone finds it meaningful, I am happy to share that, because anything good that comes out of it, to my mind, is the Holy Spirit. But the problem with that, when it comes to disability in particular is.
And autism, more specifically, is that, again, there isn't a one size fits all approach. So you can find sort of liturgies that people have found great success with, but that isn't a guarantee that that's going to be successful in your context and among your people. Um, and so part of what that sharing and collaboration needs to look like is adaptation.
Right. So that you're not just importing something wholesale. You're looking at it and saying, here's, here's what I think would work for us. And that I think we can do authentically and this part we can't, and we've, we just got to scrap it because otherwise it's going to sound phony or insincere or just not work for our people.
Zoe: Yeah, and it's interesting because although that does involve work and involve kind of assessing how that will work in specific churches, it does still take the load off, like it's still like, okay, here's the base, like the foundations of what I need to do. And that's where the whole like research to practice gap comes into it because there is research that gives these overall ideas of what can be done. On the Centre for Autism and Theology YouTube channel playlist, for example, we do have a few videos, um, by Leon and another researcher, Henna, on just their research and what can be difficult in churches. So, I guess, kind of appreciating and I guess making these resources more widespread and more accessible for everyone starts to make those changes smaller because it's not like, okay, what do I do? It gives those foundations.
Krysia: no I completely agree with the idea of making information more connected up because that is something I found in the work that I've done is that people aren't necessarily always aware of the resources that are out there even though you can probably google them quite quickly, um, or the research that's out there.
So I think it also puts a bit of responsibility onto us as researchers in how we share our findings in a meaningful way for churches and other kind of religious belief and faith groups or non religious groups as well. If those parts of it are useful, especially around existential world beliefs.
Because clearly the kind of way we work as academics, with going to conferences and doing papers, it's fantastic in kind of getting other academics to hear it. But are ministers, priests, pastors hearing it? Are people in churches hearing it? I mean, certainly before I was in academia, I wasn't picking up anything.
Like, like this, and it makes me think, how do we reach? people and I guess that adds another layer of questions for me on how we address the basically the research to practice gap.
Zoe: Yeah, and as well when like a lot of what is published as papers or academic articles, so then you're relying on certain kinds of churches where people are engaging with academic work, where people are reading three books a week on Christian faith and Christian theology. And then again, that kind of misses out maybe churches in different social, economical contexts, where, why would you read an academic article or an academic book on the Christian faith or other faiths when actually you're just struggling to get food on the table or you're struggling, like your job is very demanding and you don't have time to engage with these things. So I guess it comes into like economics and social things as well as that.
Krysia: Exactly. I mean, I recently had a chapter published, um, and it was, It's behind a paywall, so it's not particularly accessible even for people who do read.
35 to access it each time. So, in this cost of living prices, who has the equivalent of 35, they can just fork out to access a piece of scholarship if they haven't got a university login, or their local library hasn't got some sort of agreement. It makes it just that, it adds all those extra layers into it.
Ian: I think, um, this is not off topic, but just taking it a step further, the, part of the reason that this matters as much as it does is because there, there, I think that in academia and in disability studies and disability theology, we are, we are approaching a right understanding of the dignity of disabled people, right?
Um, we don't always necessarily have it perfect, but, but there's, there's years of work in, in trying to achieve that goal. But in practice, in ministry, it is all too easy for well meaning Christians to view the disabled people as objects of pity and objects of ministry, right? And so we have to have things like, um, Amy Kenny's, um, book, uh, My Body is Not a Prayer Request, right?
That, that help in a, in a more approachable way to impart some of those lessons to people. Um, and that's the, those, those are the stakes in getting the, getting the research. Out to people and getting it in front of people and getting it implemented by people is so that we, we don't have like a 1970s era theology of disability informing what we're doing that is with all the best of intentions and yet profoundly humiliating for disabled people right? Um, so I think it's, I think it's important. I think that we've got to work at it because the stakes are really high.
Zoe: Yeah, that's such a good observation. It goes so much deeper than just, like, using the resources. It's the structures, the frameworks, and the beliefs that ultimately oppress people and marginalise people. Yeah, this has been such an encouraging conversation and while we're very much just putting ideas out there, we hope that some people get stuff from this and we'd also love for anyone to reach out with their thoughts on this kind of gap between research and practice.
We would love to hear from practitioners to hear what researchers and autism or disability theology more generally could do to make research and research outputs more accessible so that change can happen and so that communities can be more inclusive spaces. But thank you so much everyone for listening.
We'll be back on the first Wednesday of the month in the next episode we'll be here, we'll, ah! In the next episode we'll be hearing from Naomi and Emily on their book At the Gates and we hope you'll tune in for that.
Thank you so much for joining us and if you have any questions or want to get in touch you can contact us on social media or email us at cat@abdn.ac.Uk