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The Beyond High Performance Podcast is brought to you by the coaches and friends of the executive coaching firm, Novus Global, and the Meta Performance Institute for Coaching. Join us for intentional, vulnerable, thought-provoking conversations that illustrate the life-shifting power of coaching. This podcast was crafted to help you grow as a coach, leader, employee, and human being, inspiring you to go beyond high performance and explore what you are capable of. Note that this podcast is not for those who are committed to mediocrity.
00:00:00:02 - 00:00:18:16
David Miller
In movie production, at least until graphics got as realistic as they are. The scariest thing to do was not show the monster. Right? Yeah. There is. And there's something really interesting to us. How often are we not. We just. We won't look at the monster. We won't look at the potential cost. We won't. And. And I don't think we always do it on purpose.
00:00:18:16 - 00:00:36:07
David Miller
I don't know that. I think that it's always a, like, a conscious activity to avoid the cost of being seen as not enough or not good enough or whatever it is. But I and I think that there again, there's something really beautiful in the coaching, like with, with clients that I'll have very often. I'm like, can we just bring that into the light for a minute?
00:00:36:07 - 00:00:38:00
David Miller
Because I don't think that's as scary as you think.
00:00:38:02 - 00:01:03:23
Mike Park Intro
Welcome to the Beyond High Performance podcast featuring content and conversations from me, Jason Jaggard, along with our elite coaches at Novus Global, they're high performing clients and the faculty of the Meta Performance Institute for coaching. On this podcast, you'll hear some of the world's best executive coaches and high performing leaders, artists and athletes discuss how they continue to go beyond high performance in their lives and businesses.
00:01:03:25 - 00:01:28:28
Amanda Jaggard
So looking forward to this conversation with you guys here today. And we are going to talk about one of the pain points that comes up so often with our clients, other coaches that are part of Novus Global ourselves. And it's this idea around I should be further along, further along in my career, further along, and how much money I'm making further along in my personal life.
00:01:29:03 - 00:01:46:06
Amanda Jaggard
For somebody like I should be further along than where I am right now. So I would love to throw it out. How common do you actually think that this is? How often does it come up for you, and why do we not talk about it a whole lot?
00:01:46:08 - 00:01:52:06
David Miller
Yeah, I mean, first of all, you got to love a good should, like like there is something that.
00:01:52:06 - 00:01:52:15
Amanda Jaggard
Just.
00:01:52:17 - 00:02:20:07
David Miller
I should I love a good should I in my experience for me as an individual and for like the leaders that I coach, I know for you as well, it is something that comes up almost every client. I am yet to have a client that doesn't have some sort of belief around where they should be, where they could be, if only like there's this and and in some ways, like the work that we do with our clients brings this to the surface.
00:02:20:08 - 00:02:44:04
David Miller
In my experience, where there is a let's, let's, let's create a picture of the future that compels you into action, your vision. And then we have this picture out here that you are able to to see with your mind's eye, but you are not yet. And so you are objectively not where you want to be, right? It gets to be potentially like in the danger zone of all this when it turns into.
00:02:44:05 - 00:02:59:13
David Miller
But I should be. Yeah, yeah. Well and that's the thing, right. So I mean, the thing you just did right now is like, hey, you're coming to us because there's a problem. Like, I'm not where I should be. Like, again, you said pain point like this is, this is this is not good. Like alarms going off like this is.
00:02:59:15 - 00:03:16:10
David Miller
Yeah, we're in crisis mode. And what you just did is like, no, wait, look at this. Like, what if this is an opportunity because this brought you here. This brought you to this moment, like, oh, like there's something that I want. There's something I want to be happening. There's a place I want to be in my life that I am not at yet.
00:03:16:13 - 00:03:31:17
David Miller
And you as a coach, like. So I go to come David. And you say he's like, awesome. Yeah. Amazing. You're ahead of the game. Yeah, you're head of the game. You figured that out. There's something that you noticed about your life that you want. Yeah. Now we get to talk about what that could look like and how you can get there.
00:03:31:18 - 00:03:51:01
Amanda Jaggard
But I think with so many high performers, there is this like it comes up almost all the time. And vision conversations they'll say is like, I should already be there. I should already have that. Like, almost like even in a not saying it sometimes, because even by saying it, it means that I should have already done it already.
00:03:51:01 - 00:03:52:21
Amanda Jaggard
So what's my problem?
00:03:52:24 - 00:04:10:09
David Miller
Yeah. That's interesting. I've experienced both. I've experienced times that someone will be talking about the vision and someone will say, well, I don't want to sit after prodding and all of it, I don't know that I want to go there because the moment it's out of my mouth now, I feel like I have to do it. Yeah, and that's interesting.
00:04:10:11 - 00:04:30:13
David Miller
Like weight to carry for the client and for that coaching relationship. I also have seen what you're saying, I think Amanda and you can tell me if I'm on it, but I've also seen where, where someone will come in and it's. And there is this, I don't want to talk about my vision. I don't want to talk about that picture of the future, because I actually am ashamed that I don't have it yet.
00:04:30:15 - 00:04:53:29
David Miller
It's not that it's compelling me forward. It's actually keeping me where I am because I'm so ashamed that that I feel like everything should have fill in the blank of whatever should have. And now I'm going to sit here and talk about it, and now I'm going to sit in the shame. And as a coach, oftentimes like, you know, once we hit that area, it's it's kind of behooves us to kind of to go, well, okay, great.
00:04:54:00 - 00:05:11:29
David Miller
What if this is exactly the way that you want it, right. It's not desire anymore that moves you forward. It's judgment that keeps you stuck. And that's what we're talking about, right? Yeah. So like when you had that thought of like, I should be this, I should be that, then it's like, oh, I stay in that story. It was a cause, like like, what are the results?
00:05:12:00 - 00:05:33:22
David Miller
Right? Yeah. Well, the results of it is that I get anxiety, I get shame, like I get really afraid. I start with, I start holding back, I'm waiting. I don't make moves. I lead from a, like a more anxious place and say, oh, okay, now that's keeping you stuck somewhere, right? And that's getting in your way. Yeah. Where does the should compel you and where does the should keep you stuck?
00:05:33:23 - 00:05:52:07
David Miller
Is is is interesting to me. Where's the shit helpful I think that there is something like even before having this conversation, we talked a little bit around this idea of, of like comparison. And so I think sometimes we can look at this lens of comparison and go, I'm comparing myself to you. And literally we've been friends for a long time.
00:05:52:07 - 00:06:14:18
David Miller
I will I'll be like, I'm comparing myself to Mike and I'm going, man. Like, look what he's up to. And the way that he's showing up in the world, I would that that is inspiring to me. Yeah. To go and to accomplish, to try to, you know, to be that. There are other times that I'll look at a friend and I'll go and I'll go, oh, there's so much further ahead.
00:06:14:18 - 00:06:38:22
David Miller
It's almost a self-pity is when the should keeps you stuck, but in like an inspirational way. There can be this, this like, oh, wow. Like I get to strive towards something. I get to try something that I wouldn't have tried if I didn't have that example or that thing that I'm comparing myself to. And so sometimes, right, we've all heard like that phrase like it's like a comparison is the thief of joy.
00:06:38:26 - 00:06:59:19
David Miller
And I go, yeah. And I think there's a lot of truth in that. And there are times that it would go well sometimes actually, that will be something that will be compelling to you that the difference between becomes, for me, how are you experiencing, how are you choosing to live in that comparison? And that should in that next step of where you're headed?
00:06:59:21 - 00:07:37:11
Amanda Jaggard
Because if it does create some sort of judgment or like if it diminishes instead of expanding, right? So if it makes I get smaller or if it helps to open up possibility, or if it creates fear rather than more love and abundance. I think about my son. He's a senior in high school, but he plays competitive volleyball, and he didn't start playing until he was 14, is when he finally told me that he wanted to play volleyball, which is farther along, like older than maybe some other people.
00:07:37:12 - 00:08:06:13
Amanda Jaggard
Right? Or you think about kids who are growing up. Their parents are former pro players and they're playing at a really young age. So he constantly has this feeling of, I'm behind, I'm behind, and so frustrated. However, one of his strategies, so he was comparing himself and then I'm behind, but also comparing himself and constantly putting himself in gyms where he's the worst libero in the gym because that comparison drives him forward.
00:08:06:14 - 00:08:22:26
Amanda Jaggard
Yeah, he has something to work towards and I really respect that about him. So it is the difference of comparison and being in that should. And then it is sad in the car driving home or the pulling him forward into more greatness.
00:08:22:29 - 00:08:46:13
David Miller
Yeah. I'm curious if either of you have stories of how you've seen this happen with your clients, like what are you watching with clients or what are you even looking for in conversations with clients that will help you to know whether they are using, again, comparison or should in a way that is like compelling them or utilizing comparison and should as a way that holds them back.
00:08:46:14 - 00:08:46:19
David Miller
Yeah.
00:08:46:19 - 00:09:01:29
Mike Park
So I think about particularly like executives, CEOs, I mean, we all work with like high level executives who are in the seat for the first time. So never see for the first time. And then they have this thought of like, oh, man, I should know everything to do here. I should know how to lead this team. I should know how to lead this company.
00:09:01:29 - 00:09:05:11
Mike Park
I knew I should know how to be in the seat. And they don't.
00:09:05:13 - 00:09:05:25
David Miller
Yeah.
00:09:05:26 - 00:09:21:22
Mike Park
And now all of a sudden they're they're like, oh, man, what if someone finds. So like, we talk about imposter syndrome, right. That comes out a lot. It's like, man, what if what if people find out because I look at all the others? Or am my or the my perception of what a CEO should know or how they should operate in this moment, or.
00:09:21:23 - 00:09:27:11
David Miller
Like the book version of the social media version of that CEO tells me that they always knew the right answer, why don't I?
00:09:27:12 - 00:09:47:21
Mike Park
Yeah, right. And so it's like that's where, you know, to your point, it's like man. So that's where comparison, I think gets in the way. Because then if it's like if you're going to start hiding, if you're going to start, you know, like having this anxiety and fear of being found out. Yeah. Shaming out or or you're not going to be as honest or forthcoming with your team with whole idea is because it's like, oh man.
00:09:47:23 - 00:10:05:01
Mike Park
What if someone finds out? I don't know, I don't know everything, right? You're human, just like anyone else. Then that gets away. But or maybe and like comparison I think can be really helpful because I'll start working with and I'm, you know, in this past year there have been some CEOs I've worked with where I said they're in the seed for the first time.
00:10:05:01 - 00:10:22:10
Mike Park
I said, look, you're in the seat for the first time. There are a lot of things. You don't know who has been in your seat or a similar seat before. Who are some people you know, like look at your network. What resource do you have? What if you can go and learn from them? So there's someone in a comparable position.
00:10:22:10 - 00:10:42:28
Mike Park
You can go and ask for mentoring, ask for data, just pick their brain. And that's where that comparison is like because I want to get better. Yeah. Like I want to grow. So I want to put my CEO to like what? Like Elijah, I want to put myself in the gym where there are people out there. I'm, I'm going to compare myself to in a really great way and say, man, I want to get to where they are.
00:10:42:28 - 00:10:44:27
Mike Park
How can I learn from them?
00:10:44:29 - 00:11:14:18
Amanda Jaggard
Yeah. Elijah and his senior thing said, if you're the best person in the gym, find a new gym. Yeah. And I think that that's really important. When I think about clients, I, I coach a lot of male clients, but I also coach a lot of females. And for maybe they took a little bit of a, of a break to have kids or focus on some other priorities, including including myself even.
00:11:14:19 - 00:11:38:27
Amanda Jaggard
And it's like I compare myself to other people who either don't have the same personal life situation as I do, or they've been working for the last 40 years and is like, oh, I should be at the age I am, I should be farther along. And something that I've really had to learn for myself and with my clients is that I'm not running anybody else's race but my own.
00:11:38:28 - 00:11:39:23
David Miller
Yeah, that's right.
00:11:39:24 - 00:12:02:15
Amanda Jaggard
This is my race, my journey, my story. It is unfolding perfectly. And this is these are the decisions that that I have made. And I can stand in, in pride of that. And I think, yeah, I mean, we can look back and have any types of regret. So I made this decision, I made this decision. And I think that's helpful for for learning.
00:12:02:16 - 00:12:14:11
Amanda Jaggard
Like there is something to the regret of it and having like reframing it for myself and saying like, but this is my story and I'm not running anybody else's race. This is mine.
00:12:14:13 - 00:12:17:10
Mike Park
Yeah. All right. We're talking about ourselves.
00:12:17:11 - 00:12:19:17
Amanda Jaggard
Yeah, man.
00:12:19:18 - 00:12:40:05
Mike Park
I mean, I think because in a lot, in some ways, I mean, when we think about the shoulds, when we think about the shame spiral, I think, you know, I know that's like the topic. So much of that is the story I tell myself about myself. And so when I think about, you know, you guys, you know me and know my story, I'm first generation immigrant kid growing up in like in the 80s and 90s.
00:12:40:05 - 00:12:57:10
Mike Park
And so the California a lot of times, like it's not that way now by far, but by like, man, a lot of times I was one of few Asian kids, my class. And, you know, I've the experience for me, a lot of in life has been being in spaces where there aren't a lot of people who look like me or have the same background I do.
00:12:57:10 - 00:13:13:21
Mike Park
And so the story I've told myself is that I don't know if I belong here or like, I got to prove that I belong here and that that's the running story. And what's interesting is that so, like, there can be that imposter syndrome of like, oh man, I hope like they find out or they don't find out that I'm actually.
00:13:13:24 - 00:13:21:28
Mike Park
Yeah. Or like I'm afraid that people are going to think that don't belong or I'm not good enough or all that. But then they're also there's that drive that that creates for me.
00:13:22:01 - 00:13:23:09
Amanda Jaggard
What was the drive.
00:13:23:11 - 00:13:34:05
Mike Park
To prove myself to, to prove that I belong. Like I'm going to show them that's, you know, it was and, you know, like, I mean, there was a lot of like, motivation and resource I got from that.
00:13:34:06 - 00:13:36:10
Amanda Jaggard
So is there any costs to the prove it energy?
00:13:36:11 - 00:13:37:07
Mike Park
Absolutely.
00:13:37:09 - 00:13:39:11
Amanda Jaggard
What do you think the costs are would.
00:13:39:11 - 00:13:58:20
Mike Park
Be man like I think a lot of a lot of fear, a lot of anxiety. I don't think I was as collaborative as I, as I could have been because I was always like, oh, man, like, I like, I need to be the one that that makes it. I need to be the one. And so, like I would, I would kind of hold that.
00:13:58:27 - 00:14:18:17
Mike Park
I'm being like super honest right now. Yeah. And and because I think about how that's carried over into my like adult life, you know, because there's like a, there's a moment when I was a kid, I was like, this is what I have to do to make it. This is what I have to do to survive. There was like a real, like survival part of it.
00:14:18:17 - 00:14:41:07
Mike Park
And this is this is what it means to make it. And honestly, like my, my, my immigrant family, my parents, they're like, that was like that was it like we were like fighting tooth and nail to make it in a country where we don't know the language that well, where we don't have a lot of resources when, you know, and, and so but as I've gotten older, I realized, like, I operate that way in places where I don't have to anymore.
00:14:41:09 - 00:14:43:16
David Miller
Sure. Yeah. There's residual. Yeah.
00:14:43:21 - 00:14:52:00
Mike Park
And so now I'm in situations where I'm like, I don't know if I belong here. And everyone's like, what? Are you kidding me? We're like, oh, like, I don't know if you know, people really respect.
00:14:52:02 - 00:14:54:17
Amanda Jaggard
It's like, and you're the only one that has that story.
00:14:54:18 - 00:14:55:09
Mike Park
The only one who's.
00:14:55:09 - 00:14:57:15
Amanda Jaggard
Running anybody else that way. Yeah, yeah.
00:14:57:16 - 00:15:12:02
Mike Park
And again, you know, when we think about like, why something like the shoulds and imposter syndrome, like, persists, we've gotten a lot of juice out of that squeeze. Yeah. You know, it's created value or motivation. It got us here.
00:15:12:03 - 00:15:12:20
David Miller
That's right.
00:15:12:21 - 00:15:31:21
Mike Park
And again, a lot of like for myself, I know the leaders that we work with like the, the the rub and the pain point is like, oh, you know, again, you say it all the time what got me here, it's not going to get me there. You know what got me here in my leadership and, and the way I've performed is not going to get me to that next place where I want to go.
00:15:31:22 - 00:15:32:06
David Miller
Yeah.
00:15:32:08 - 00:15:43:18
Mike Park
And so now I'm, you know, again, even with within our team getting feedback of like, Mike, when are you going to believe about yourself what we all believe about you?
00:15:43:20 - 00:16:05:04
Amanda Jaggard
And that's I think one of the powerful things about community is to. I've been in communities where I like. It was like, why aren't you further along if I'm if I'm honest. Yeah, right. Like, there, there have been those, those places. And so the shame I can either do something with that story, like I can take that story on or I can set that story aside.
00:16:05:04 - 00:16:24:18
Amanda Jaggard
But like, I have the agency of what I choose to do with that story. But to your point, I think a community that says you do belong here is really important and valuable, and finding those communities so that we can grow. And I think it does help us to rewrite those stories for ourselves.
00:16:24:25 - 00:16:42:21
David Miller
Yeah, it's one of the things I really loved about coming into Novus Global was for for me. And actually, you were my first coach when I got here. And I remember all of the, the, the beliefs that I had that came from my last role. I go, oh, you know, I'm kind of told I do this. And so I don't want to be I don't want them to think this about me.
00:16:42:21 - 00:16:53:13
David Miller
And there's this like image management that starts to take place where, where it's it's fascinating to kind of go, oh, when you're in a place where they, you're allowed to reinvent.
00:16:53:16 - 00:16:54:05
Mike Park
Yes.
00:16:54:07 - 00:17:15:00
David Miller
You are not only the last mistake you made or frankly, the last success you had. That's right. But you are like in process at all times or something that is core to our work that we like. There is no such thing as a rival. I haven't all of a sudden arrived because I have the title, I have the skill, I have the client, you, whatever.
00:17:15:00 - 00:17:54:20
David Miller
Those things are happening, and with the clients that we have, we're coaching at some of the highest levels, coaching someone that was in the Olympics and while and coming up to the Winter Olympics, he's telling me all of the things that he's trying to prove to everyone else. That's right. And we have we have we have all of these conversations around, like, what if you actually already have proven that, like, is there something about coming into this next game with the energy of, I've already shown you, now I just need to live in who I, who I am now, not this fictitious version of what's coming or the version that you remember of me from
00:17:54:20 - 00:18:13:27
David Miller
before. I actually get to be right here, right now and show you everything that I have in this moment. And there's something that was so beautiful about the realization for this particular athlete of going, oh, man, like, like like the the freedom of not having that chip on his shoulder for a moment to be able to go, well then.
00:18:13:28 - 00:18:38:18
David Miller
And actually, what was interesting is like in that season, he, he started saying, well, then I don't totally know what motivates me if I don't have the chip on my shoulder. That's right. It's there now. Now I'm going to go relearn what what drives me that is now not I'll show you. It actually moves into I am I am right now in in a very powerful season.
00:18:38:18 - 00:18:45:29
David Miller
And I am right now in a space that, that, that you should take notice of. And I'm heading somewhere.
00:18:46:01 - 00:18:55:06
Mike Park
Yeah. So what did that create. So when, when he like grounded into I am like I don't have to prove it. I don't have to operate with this massive, like chip on my shoulder. Like what did I create.
00:18:55:06 - 00:19:12:01
David Miller
For him. Two things that come to mind right away when you ask the question. The first is that there was a calm that was created. So there is almost this very like I can just rest here and be in the moment, rather than fighting a battle or a war or proving something that others don't even know that I'm fighting.
00:19:12:03 - 00:19:31:28
David Miller
Right? So it's the amount of energy expelled improve it for this particular person was was taking so much of his energy that to then let that go for a moment it almost like, like I'm I equate it to, you know, when I used to play baseball, you put the donut on the weight on the bat and you swing the bat, and then you take the weight off.
00:19:31:29 - 00:19:49:07
David Miller
That's when you're in the batter's box. Then you take the weight off the bat, and it feels so much lighter than it was before. And you even have to adjust to how light it feels for a moment. But you go, oh, like there's something that he took the weight off. Yeah. And was able to just like be in the moment, which I think was, was was really interesting.
00:19:49:13 - 00:20:01:15
David Miller
The other side of it is that is that that frantic energy. So like when someone would score against him. It wasn't ruined.
00:20:01:21 - 00:20:02:22
Mike Park
Yeah.
00:20:02:25 - 00:20:03:20
Amanda Jaggard
It's so good.
00:20:03:23 - 00:20:28:12
David Miller
Right. Like when the that play didn't go the way that he would have wanted it to go. It wasn't like the game wasn't over. There's still more. We're still in the fight. We're still playing the game. We still get like, I'm up to bat again. I get to go do this again. And there's something that was really interesting about that experience of watching him like start to realize, oh, I am not here for everyone else.
00:20:28:12 - 00:20:53:29
David Miller
I actually am here to accomplish some of the things that I want to accomplish. And in fact, most of what I there was a moment where we would talk about, I am already further along than I ever expected myself to be, and I know, I mean and so again, I remember coming into Novus Global as a coach and going and like, we worked together in the last company that we were part of and then coming in here and, and I remember, I remember Jason one day saying to me.
00:20:54:03 - 00:21:11:05
David Miller
Hey, all this stuff that, that, that you told don't like, like, hey, kind of tamper that down. Don't don't tamper that down here. Yeah. Come in with the fullness of who you are. And then I would go into coaching with a man and I go, I don't think that he means it. I don't think I can come in with the fullness of who I am because I'm going to get pushed away.
00:21:11:05 - 00:21:36:03
David Miller
I'm going to offend someone. Something's going to go wrong. And then and so again, listen to all the shoulds in there. Listen to all of that. I'm not I'm not calm enough. I'm not professional enough. I'm not fill in the blanks or whatever it is. And actually what they're asking for was the thing that came most naturally, which is like this sense of power that I wanted to bring into the space to be disruptive to, to to say the thing that someone else wouldn't say.
00:21:36:05 - 00:21:55:10
David Miller
And I did not believe them. It took me months to actually like and I would, you know, you had kind of like, I'm imagining I don't remember which movie it is, but it was a cartoon. I watched them, the kids, and they would, like, touch the water and then back away and then touch the like. I had that feeling in myself of of, well, let me know.
00:21:55:10 - 00:22:10:12
David Miller
I don't know, I don't know and then would kind of like go in a little bit deeper, going a little bit deeper. And then now five years later, able to look at it and go and go, oh, actually, I think exactly the way the things that I bring and the things they told me they wanted it, it's it's it's true.
00:22:10:12 - 00:22:18:09
David Miller
And what's fun is that my role here has changed. Like, you know, before we were recording, you were like, what's your what's.
00:22:18:09 - 00:22:18:24
Mike Park
Your title.
00:22:18:24 - 00:22:19:10
David Miller
Now.
00:22:19:11 - 00:22:21:04
Amanda Jaggard
Today, what is your title?
00:22:21:05 - 00:22:41:11
David Miller
And and and again and it's and it's and every time to to go off of some of what you're saying. Every time I was entering a job that I did not know how to do. Yeah. Every time I would go, I go, I don't know how to do this, but let's go ahead and figure it out together. And then, you know, a month later, two months later, a year later, it's like, it's like, hey, you want to take this part of of what we do on now?
00:22:41:13 - 00:22:42:19
Mike Park
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:42:19 - 00:23:05:08
David Miller
I don't know how to do that. Well but like and and and what was beautiful is that in, in the past I think I would have said no because I don't think that, that it didn't feel like safe to do that, to come into a space here and to go, oh wow. Like, no, there is an invitation that I am not just whatever I've done before, but in fact, a lot of our leaders haven't done the job we're now in.
00:23:05:10 - 00:23:09:13
David Miller
This is the first time we've done this job. And I think that's really beautiful.
00:23:09:14 - 00:23:17:07
Amanda Jaggard
Yeah. And I think a lot of people just in the way that the world is going today, when I talk to people about AI or where work is going, like.
00:23:17:10 - 00:23:18:28
Mike Park
People don't know any where.
00:23:19:00 - 00:23:29:10
Amanda Jaggard
Nobody knows where we've been before, right? I have a son in college, and I think the youths are dealing with this, and parents don't even know how.
00:23:29:12 - 00:23:31:02
David Miller
Saying the youth.
00:23:31:04 - 00:23:33:06
Mike Park
You saying.
00:23:33:09 - 00:23:38:12
David Miller
No, no, no, I get it. That says more about you though. Just, just I mean, I just want to be very clear about what just happened here.
00:23:38:13 - 00:23:39:19
Mike Park
That was my cousin video.
00:23:39:21 - 00:23:45:19
David Miller
Hey, you. Yeah. Hey, Amanda, tell us what the youths are saying. Yes, that's how I talk, I appreciate that. Let us know.
00:23:45:20 - 00:24:08:23
Amanda Jaggard
The the youth are having, like, an existential dread in a lot of ways because there is so much uncertainty. And parents, us Gen Xers who, you know, you check the box and you get the thing and nobody knows how to live in this uncertainty. And I think that our work is really important in that for stepping in like none of us have been here before.
00:24:09:00 - 00:24:24:08
Amanda Jaggard
Yeah. And so to some extent, you know, imposter syndrome or even this feeling of I should be further along, I should like I should be completely fluent in AI. I like good luck. Yeah. Yeah. Because it changes.
00:24:24:10 - 00:24:24:18
David Miller
Moment.
00:24:24:18 - 00:24:25:07
Amanda Jaggard
In every week.
00:24:25:08 - 00:24:25:28
David Miller
Yeah. Exactly.
00:24:25:28 - 00:24:46:19
Amanda Jaggard
Right. And so I think that that has helped me to, in a way get rid of that. Because if our world is constantly changing and growing, if my vision is constantly changing and growing, yeah, I want to be a part of something, an organization where there's constant change. And so it kind of takes the should away because everything's new.
00:24:46:20 - 00:25:00:02
Mike Park
Yeah. Well, I think about from what you're saying, like when there's like a change, whether it's changing the environment, change the landscape, that's what's what's going on with the AI when there's changing your position. Yes. When a change in your in a new role, or maybe.
00:25:00:02 - 00:25:10:12
Amanda Jaggard
When coaches come in to they've been successful in another realm and then they come in to novice global and our coaching for the first time. And it's like, wait, I used to be an expert at all the things.
00:25:10:15 - 00:25:21:27
Mike Park
Well, well, we talk about our in coaching. It's like like notice the experience you're creating for yourself. So so if you're like, man, I'm excited because this is an opportunity for for for change, for something different, for reinvention.
00:25:21:28 - 00:25:22:20
David Miller
Yes.
00:25:22:22 - 00:25:28:05
Mike Park
Then that's that's thrilling. There's a lot of joy there if it's a but then it's like, man, this is dangerous.
00:25:28:06 - 00:25:29:03
David Miller
I hope I don't get caught.
00:25:29:04 - 00:25:46:05
Mike Park
This is crisis. Like, what if they find out I'm not good at this? What if I can't do this? Then all of a sudden that's when that fear and anxiety sets in and it's like, well, what if like, you know, somehow I was thinking about when both of you were talking is I want to test this thought with you is that I don't think we can reinvent on our own.
00:25:46:07 - 00:25:47:05
David Miller
What do you mean?
00:25:47:07 - 00:25:54:21
Mike Park
Well, for you, it's like Jason, Amanda, different people who are speaking into your life. Because we get so entrenched in the story we are telling ourselves.
00:25:54:22 - 00:25:55:01
David Miller
That's.
00:25:55:01 - 00:26:18:16
Mike Park
Good in our own map of reality. So, so and this is again, it's a coach, it's a mentor. It's a leader who is speaking, a parent who's speaking into our lives and saying, well, hey, what if that's actually not true? Okay? And we we get to choose, like ultimately like the work of reinvention. It's not a solo game because it's it's in partnership with other people who are speaking into our lives and with us.
00:26:18:16 - 00:26:24:20
Mike Park
And ultimately we we need to choose. Yeah. You know, it's us choosing reinvention. Go ahead.
00:26:24:22 - 00:26:42:21
Amanda Jaggard
Well, I was like, I might be able to reinvent on my own, but I actually don't want to. Yeah, right. Like the the reinvention within the context of community is a lot, I think of what makes it worthwhile. And even if I could see.
00:26:42:21 - 00:26:52:11
Mike Park
What can someone and again I want to like, you know, talk this out. Can someone to reinvent I mean, can you go up to the mountaintop or go into the woods and, and I've been.
00:26:52:11 - 00:26:54:04
Amanda Jaggard
Living it yourself into a hermit.
00:26:54:11 - 00:27:11:13
Mike Park
Yeah. But again, it's like like, is there a like. Because for me and this is actually want y'all to talk into this, is that like my story is whether it's about shame or, you know, shoulds are so deeply entrenched often from a really young age. Yeah.
00:27:11:15 - 00:27:30:22
David Miller
Like becomes like an echo chamber. Right. So you're now self-fulfilling prophecy. I think this about myself. I say this to myself, I become this. Yeah. And so I it's funny because as coaches we have, like, annoying ears, right? Like, we like the things that we hear. And so, like, do I believe that someone can reinvent themselves on their own?
00:27:30:22 - 00:27:34:17
David Miller
I think that it is possible. I think it is far, far, far more difficult.
00:27:34:18 - 00:27:34:28
Amanda Jaggard
Yeah.
00:27:34:29 - 00:27:58:03
David Miller
Of course so, because I do think that we have this like when all I am speaking to is myself, then the only voice that I can hear is my own. And so I am literally living this out over and over and over again and wondering why I'm not seeing different angles of the problem, wondering why I'm talking myself in or out of what could be a really amazing opportunities.
00:27:58:03 - 00:28:13:12
David Miller
And so to to what I think you're saying. And you can obviously like, lean into it. Is this like a, like a surgeon doesn't do surgery on themselves, right. Right. Like and even you go like let's go like less risky. Like like a hairstylist doesn't cut their own hair.
00:28:13:13 - 00:28:13:18
Mike Park
Yeah.
00:28:13:18 - 00:28:32:02
Amanda Jaggard
Well, you're saying like you tested the waters, right? So we and our coaching, like you could do a lot of those reinvention of beliefs, you know, within yourself on your own. But I think to create new data points. That's it. Right. It is. It's the the testing. It's like okay what kind of response do I get back. Oh I did that there.
00:28:32:02 - 00:28:33:22
Amanda Jaggard
I you know I was was my full self.
00:28:33:22 - 00:28:45:10
David Miller
And then I would bring it to coaching and you would say the the recurring question at least in my own coaching has been is that true? Because I'm very convinced that what I believe is true is true.
00:28:45:11 - 00:28:46:02
Mike Park
Yes. We know.
00:28:46:03 - 00:28:46:13
David Miller
Yeah.
00:28:46:14 - 00:28:47:29
Mike Park
Yeah, I.
00:28:48:02 - 00:28:49:12
David Miller
I don't think I hide it very well.
00:28:49:14 - 00:28:50:17
Amanda Jaggard
That is true.
00:28:50:18 - 00:29:07:23
David Miller
Yes, yes. So thank you. So I have I have high belief in my own take on things and to, to be in a session and not even for you to tell me what you think is true or untrue about what I'm saying. But for you to simply slow me down from them and say, say, is that actually true?
00:29:07:24 - 00:29:08:24
Amanda Jaggard
Yeah, maybe.
00:29:08:25 - 00:29:32:08
David Miller
Stop me in my tracks a few times that I would, because, well, it didn't stop me much at first. I would go, yes. And then, yeah, she would do that laugh and then I would go, okay, maybe I'm maybe not right. I'm willing to at least look at it. And I think that there is something to it. Could be it can be friendship, it can be a mentor.
00:29:32:11 - 00:29:55:19
David Miller
But there's something to the professionalism of a coach in our ability to like. I'll say to my about my clients, I want to show you yourself in the mirror. I just want to like, is, is this what you're trying to do? And very often it's not right because it's distorted in their mind because again, they're only looking at specific areas like like it is it is a I'll say it's a scientific fact.
00:29:55:20 - 00:30:09:02
David Miller
It is my understanding that there is a fact of we do not have great views on what we look like as an individual. I didn't know when I saw that picture of myself that that's the way I look. When people hear their voices recorded, they go, that's what I sound.
00:30:09:02 - 00:30:10:18
Mike Park
Like, I hate it. Yeah, yeah.
00:30:10:21 - 00:30:26:25
David Miller
There is distortion in our self-perception, and to actually have a place that I get to sit with someone and have conversations that I wouldn't have otherwise, that that someone would just stop me from a moment ago. Is that true? Right. Can I offer you another perspective?
00:30:26:26 - 00:30:32:13
Amanda Jaggard
Yes. Like I should be further along, right? Right. Somebody says.
00:30:32:14 - 00:30:55:27
David Miller
Yeah, I should be further along. Is that true? Let's talk about that for a little while. And and interestingly for me, I think that there and we've been talking about the duality of this a little bit like of how it can be compelling and how it can be something that that keeps you where you are. I think that in the same way that we say often, like a, like a high performer really has like, like these two things happening at the same time.
00:30:55:27 - 00:31:41:25
David Miller
They are typically simultaneously like, like bored and overwhelmed. Right? So like like, I mean, if I have experiences of, as a I'll say, recovering in, in recovery, a high performer. Yes. I feel often both overwhelmed. There's too much going on. I can't believe that I'm working so much and bored. I think we can actually in some ways, like transpose this idea here of like the two sides of the coin where the idea of should there is a I should be further along is one side of the coin, and I deserve more than I have is the other side of the coin.
00:31:41:25 - 00:32:07:11
David Miller
And and there is this like I hope they don't find out. Like I should be further along and I hope they don't find out. And I know I've experienced that with with clients, with other coaches like coaches that will join the firm and they'll go, I feel like I should be further than I am now, but I don't want to post any of my questions on slack, or I don't want to actually bring in any of it to coaching because I hope no one finds out.
00:32:07:12 - 00:32:17:05
David Miller
Yeah, that I don't know what I don't know. Have you experienced that with with any other within yourself or within clients? Do you do you have you experienced the duality of that?
00:32:17:06 - 00:32:28:14
Amanda Jaggard
Well, I think what I'm connecting with is I don't know how connected I am to the belief that or the action of I don't want people to find me out interesting.
00:32:28:15 - 00:32:39:10
David Miller
When did that start for you? Because you've been in the firm since at least in the ten years now. Plus you've been a part of this. Was it always that way? Did you always have a I'm not connected to. I don't want them to find out.
00:32:39:10 - 00:33:08:24
Amanda Jaggard
We have a distorted view of ourself. I like to think of myself as very open and not afraid of what people think and and stuff. And so I don't it doesn't occur to me that I might be like hiding because I don't want people to find stuff out. But as you're talking, I'm thinking, I actually wonder how much of that is true.
00:33:08:24 - 00:33:44:02
Amanda Jaggard
And it might be even more of like, I don't want people to know, like the true fears inside of me, or I don't want people to know the true, like thoughts that I do have in my head, or the weaknesses I do have and how much. Right? Because like, we know what's going on in our head. And so I don't know, even as you're saying, I'm just wondering how much I am showing up in a way that isn't actually fully connected to maybe some of the beliefs that are running underneath.
00:33:44:04 - 00:33:53:00
Mike Park
Yeah. I mean, I don't want to put you on the spot, but but I wonder if there's a like. Oh, because because if they did, then this could happen. Like their stories that we tell on.
00:33:53:01 - 00:34:02:11
Amanda Jaggard
Yeah. I mean if they did then I wouldn't get certain opportunities or. I don't even know.
00:34:02:14 - 00:34:08:02
Mike Park
Yeah. Isn't that interesting. Like like we're afraid of this thing happening that we don't even know what that is.
00:34:08:03 - 00:34:30:12
David Miller
Yeah. Yeah, it I don't know if this fits, but it makes me think of, like, in movie production, at least until, like, graphics got as as as realistic as they are. The scariest thing to do was not show the monster, right? Yeah. There is. And there's something really interesting to us. How often are we not. We just we won't look at the monster.
00:34:30:12 - 00:34:53:15
David Miller
We won't look at the potential costs. We won't. And and I don't think we always do it on purpose. I don't know that. I think that it's always a, like, a conscious activity to avoid the cost of being seen as not enough or not good enough or whatever it is, but I yeah, but I do think that there is something to people, like sitting in a space and going, I, I haven't actually shed light on that yet.
00:34:53:19 - 00:35:09:07
David Miller
And I think that there again, there's something really beautiful in the coaching, like with, with clients that I'll have very often. I'm like, can we just bring that into the light for a minute? Because I don't think that's as scary as you think that it is. Yeah, I think you just haven't seen it yet. It's it's, it's it's the it's the scary music of the thing that's under the water that hasn't come up yet.
00:35:09:07 - 00:35:29:06
David Miller
And at the moment we see it and then turn the music off and see if you're actually still afraid. Like it's it's not as scary as you think when you actually look at in the light. Yeah, but we create an environment that allows it to be scary. We create an environment that allows us to feel less than. We create an environment that that that puts us in this position or like brings us into this position of striving.
00:35:29:06 - 00:35:47:01
David Miller
And we really put ourselves there like it's like we've chosen to do that. And I think it is it goes back to often for me at least, and clients that I've seen, it is this. But that's what got me here. That chip on my shoulder got me here. Who am I without it? That belief that that that I will show you got me here.
00:35:47:01 - 00:36:06:04
David Miller
Who will I be without that? And like moving into this season where I love, like. And I'm really interested in what you'll say in this because I love when you tell stories about like, your family. And I think I remember vividly the first time that I realized that I'm the adult in the room.
00:36:06:07 - 00:36:06:29
Mike Park
What's that like?
00:36:07:00 - 00:36:07:22
David Miller
Yeah, yeah, well.
00:36:07:23 - 00:36:08:10
Mike Park
You'll, you'll.
00:36:08:10 - 00:36:19:17
David Miller
You'll learn at some point, Mike. But it's like this, like. Oh, like I decide if it's safe. I decide what our kids are going to eat tonight and if it's healthy.
00:36:19:18 - 00:36:19:29
Mike Park
Yeah.
00:36:20:06 - 00:36:38:10
David Miller
Like like the, you know, whether it was just for me as an individual or for my family, like thinking often through this idea of, of my wife and I were talking literally about like, like two nights ago. And it was like I was like, isn't it weird? Like, we're like, where are the adults? Yeah. And what's fun is we met pretty young.
00:36:38:12 - 00:36:55:22
David Miller
We met in like, college, like early college. And so to think about like, who we were, you know, and it's like, it's like, who would have thought that we would be the ones that are helping keep like other humans safe or that are and then bringing into business. And we.
00:36:55:23 - 00:36:56:28
Mike Park
Currently are doing that.
00:36:57:01 - 00:37:17:20
David Miller
Exactly right. And that realization is so interesting. And I think that happens in business. Yeah, I think that we get into a space that we go, oh, wait, I make the call. Like that was one of the first, the first time that I got into upper levels of leadership and I, and I couldn't blame if it worked or didn't work on anyone else.
00:37:17:22 - 00:37:45:23
David Miller
I made the call. Yeah, I owned the decision. I am the reason that it worked or didn't work. Yeah. And to sit in that space as a leader. And I think that's where, at least in my world, to take off that cloak. Right of of I'm not far enough along. I am here right now and I and the beauty of not of knowing what I don't know all of a sudden brings it into light.
00:37:45:24 - 00:37:46:28
Mike Park
Right.
00:37:47:00 - 00:37:53:15
David Miller
And well and lets me see it. And to not be afraid of that thing anymore.
00:37:53:20 - 00:38:21:10
Amanda Jaggard
And I think when I bring stuff into the light, oftentimes I find out that I'm not the only one. Right? And one of the things I appreciate, I think about coaching and sitting across from so many people and hearing the saying, like, it's such a human thing, like it comes with the skin and we're not alone in those fears, but like, we're not necessarily talking about it all the time because we maybe think that we're the only ones.
00:38:21:12 - 00:38:57:18
Amanda Jaggard
Becoming a single parent was super hard, because now there wasn't even a sharing of the things. And so many times where I've been paralyzed in making decisions because of the fear, because, like it all. It all depends on me. Or at least that's the story that I was telling myself. Right? And I remember in therapy with Zander and the therapist said, can we just acknowledge that none of you have been here before, you haven't been here before, and you haven't been here before, and you're both figuring this out as you go.
00:38:57:18 - 00:39:08:03
Amanda Jaggard
And it was so freeing to me. And I've used that with, with clients like, can we just acknowledge you haven't been here before? Yeah. And can that be okay?
00:39:08:05 - 00:39:17:08
David Miller
The beauty, the beauty of giving yourself permission to make mistakes, I think is a is a is a superpower against the thing that we're talking about.
00:39:17:09 - 00:39:22:28
Mike Park
Yes. Well and and seeing that as a win like I, like I said yeah.
00:39:23:01 - 00:39:23:25
David Miller
Is the next step.
00:39:23:25 - 00:39:38:11
Mike Park
And I'm going to get back up and I'm going to learn from this and I'm in the room and that's a win. I mean, part of what happens is I think when we're in that fear of the unknown, when we're in like the shame story of, like, I'm not good enough or like we notice all the gaps, all the mistakes, all the shortcomings.
00:39:38:12 - 00:39:53:12
Mike Park
Yeah. And I think, you know, to your point, Amanda, we get we get blind of the win and we get blind of the victory. So we talk about like victory blindness. Right. So it's a high performer plague. It's like you are blind to the accomplishments because you're only looking at the shortcomings.
00:39:53:13 - 00:39:53:21
David Miller
Yeah.
00:39:53:22 - 00:40:05:26
Mike Park
And I think it's like when you do that it's it's and again it's like how many clients have have or, you know, calls you've been on with people who are like or it's like, like what do you want to work on. Coaching. Oh. Oh man.
00:40:05:26 - 00:40:08:05
Amanda Jaggard
Confidence so much.
00:40:08:06 - 00:40:31:11
Mike Park
Right. It's like one of the top executives or athletes like, man, I mean, I just I have self-doubt and I want to have more confidence. That's right. But they are choosing to ignore the wins. They're choosing to ignore the victories in their life. And again, to to it's like, you know, when when they're like constantly like down like talking themselves down about like, oh man, I suck.
00:40:31:11 - 00:40:39:13
Mike Park
I'm so terrible at this. Like, whoa. So if I say that out loud, like, what happens? I get to have validation. So this is what happens. So we.
00:40:39:14 - 00:40:41:22
David Miller
External validation. Yes. Yeah.
00:40:41:23 - 00:40:55:01
Mike Park
So we outsource. We try to outsource our confidence and try to get it from other people because because like okay if I'm in the shame story then I'm going to, you know, I'm gonna beat myself up. I'm going to kick my own ass, I'm going to do that. But then other people are going to say really good things about me.
00:40:55:01 - 00:40:56:18
Mike Park
So that's awesome. I love that.
00:40:56:19 - 00:40:57:19
Amanda Jaggard
I'm not going to believe them anyway.
00:40:57:21 - 00:41:00:22
Mike Park
I'm not gonna believe them anyway. And, you know, it's not going to actually create true confidence.
00:41:00:23 - 00:41:00:29
Amanda Jaggard
Yeah.
00:41:00:29 - 00:41:21:19
David Miller
That's right. It's interesting. It reminds me of some of the exercises that we do when we'll come in and we'll do acknowledgments with our clients, we'll do acknowledgments in our like it's inculcated in us as a as a firm. We don't just think everyone else should do it like we do it as a. Yeah. And and it is funny because the first time that you're in like a training room and a team does acknowledgments, how awkward does that feel.
00:41:21:21 - 00:41:23:11
Amanda Jaggard
For like two minutes.
00:41:23:16 - 00:41:45:11
David Miller
Exactly right. You're right. You're right about that. There's like in the in the very beginning, it's like there is this like because because we do it and we actually make rules around the game where, where there's this, it's like, do you receive it? That's right. Because what actually happens typically is when you fish. Yeah. Yeah. And you get the thing you were fishing for and then you immediately reject the thing you were fishing for.
00:41:45:13 - 00:42:03:22
David Miller
Yes, I got external I got external validation. So someone else told me, oh don't worry, man, you're doing so much better than you even think you are. And I immediately don't believe them. I do not take in what they're saying, and I and I, and I, you know, I equate it to like, you know, an athlete, like scoring a touchdown and going, not me, not me, you know what I mean?
00:42:03:23 - 00:42:31:11
David Miller
And it's like and it's like, no, no, no, you like, you did a lot on that. Like you really worked pretty hard for that touchdown. And there's something about that within the leaders that we work with I don't know. And you've done a lot more training than even I have. And so for me over the last like like now five years of training, this work, almost every time we have that game of acknowledgments, there are two with people you could acknowledge.
00:42:31:12 - 00:42:53:28
David Miller
You could acknowledge somebody else in the room, or you could acknowledge yourself. Yep. And almost every time we go through an entire round, no minutes, no matter how many people are in the room, no matter what's going on, and no one will acknowledge themselves. And and then, you know, you get up there and go, hey, did we notice no self acknowledgments?
00:42:54:00 - 00:43:16:06
David Miller
Because again, we are so much there's this human thing that I feel so much more freedom to tell you what I see in you, to talk to you about what I see you doing really well, then to talk even to myself about what I think I'm doing. Well, yeah. And there's a lot to it. There's. There's a public thing happening here and there's a lot there.
00:43:16:06 - 00:43:49:11
David Miller
But I think that is also true. I had the chance to write a book years ago, and we talk about this idea and it's someone else's research, but it's this 7.5 affirmations to every one negative, like every time. And then and then think about that internally and externally. So externally we have the like if I give you a criticism as a leader in order to refill your bucket, 7.5 like things you're doing well is what it would take to cancel out that one thing that I gave you a criticism for.
00:43:49:12 - 00:44:16:06
David Miller
Now. Now turn, turn the mirror inward the way that we you know, it is again fairly well known. It's like like there's so many things that I will say to and about myself that I would never say to and about someone else. Yeah, yeah. Very rarely do I then follow the 7.5 things that would cancel it out. So again, the belief structure that I'm living in, in that space is, is yeah.
00:44:16:07 - 00:44:39:23
David Miller
Again, I believe myself. I believe the way that I feel about myself. So I am not as far along as I should be. I am not getting the accolade that I want to have. And what's interesting is, is I think that in our world, especially when it comes to coaching, we actually in some ways, I said this in the toward the beginning, but it's like we we kind of antagonize this a little.
00:44:39:24 - 00:44:53:19
David Miller
Like we like we bring this up a little bit. And what's what's fascinating is that it gets to a stage where they're no longer measuring against their current reality. They're measuring against something that doesn't exist yet. And so this idea of I'm not.
00:44:53:25 - 00:44:55:09
Mike Park
Going to say that again. Yeah.
00:44:55:11 - 00:45:16:16
David Miller
Yeah, yeah. The, the thing that we're now comparing. Yeah. Is this is a picture of the future. That is not true. It is where I'm headed. And then to try to measure what that like, how would I know if like the success of that. Because we're not instinctively measuring the failures that we learn from. We're measuring. Have I arrived or have I not arrived?
00:45:16:16 - 00:45:18:12
David Miller
Am I there yet or am I not there yet?
00:45:18:13 - 00:45:38:29
Amanda Jaggard
And we're also not measuring the winds that are actually here in our present. Correct? Right. Because we're not into what you were talking about in our brain. The gray matter of our brain that processes negative emotions is significantly larger than the gray matter of our brain that processes positive emotions. And you think from an evolutionary standpoint, how important that would be for sure.
00:45:39:00 - 00:46:04:09
Amanda Jaggard
That's right. Which that's why it's the 7.5, is because it takes longer for our brains to register those positive and good things. So we need to sit in it longer in order for it to actually make the neurological pathways in our brain, which I think is fascinating. So that's why the acknowledgments and affirmations at the beginning of our trainings, or I talk so much of my clients around like, the first thing is, what do you want to acknowledge yourself for today?
00:46:04:09 - 00:46:31:27
Amanda Jaggard
And really sitting in that and celebrating the wins. Because if all I'm seeing is that I should be further along because to your point, like here is the vision and I'm not there yet, then I'm blind to all of the things that are. Yeah. And we got to we got to wrap up this, this conversation. And so final question, what is like a truth really that you want to give to people?
00:46:31:29 - 00:47:08:24
Amanda Jaggard
As we are sitting in this question. And I think for me it is along the same like be kind to yourself. And that self-compassion piece I think is really important, but also it is the gratitude for the present. And I oftentimes the mantra, it's like I am right where I'm supposed to be, everything is unfolding perfectly. And that doesn't mean that I don't want things for the future, but like anchoring into I'm right where I'm supposed to be, anything is unfolding perfectly, and such gratitude for the things that I do have and where I am and how far I've come.
00:47:08:24 - 00:47:17:08
Amanda Jaggard
And then building from that place. That's the foundation that I want to to be building from Mike.
00:47:17:10 - 00:47:41:13
Mike Park
Two things one, reinvention and shifting our stories from a place of shame to to one of, I think joy and belief is it's a team game. We do it in a community. Yeah, like I love that. Yeah. And the second piece is that often we think about shame. Shame as a problem, as a burden, as this, this massive thing that I'm carrying, this thing that I need to fix.
00:47:41:20 - 00:47:50:05
Mike Park
But often, like from our conversation, it's fuel. Yeah. It's a way for us to it can be right. It's a way that we fuel and motivate ourselves and.
00:47:50:06 - 00:47:50:27
Amanda Jaggard
Great motivator.
00:47:50:29 - 00:48:08:17
Mike Park
Right. And so, you know, noticing that it is one type of fuel. It's not the only one. So what if acknowledgment what what if what if joy what if community. What if love could also be fuel and a more powerful fuel in our lives.
00:48:08:22 - 00:48:10:05
Amanda Jaggard
Right. Like at the gas tank?
00:48:10:09 - 00:48:18:19
Mike Park
Totally. Yeah. So there's like regular, which I'll always go to because it's cheapest. That's right. Right. But then there's like super premium. Yes. And I'm always like, oh man.
00:48:18:22 - 00:48:19:19
Amanda Jaggard
Those are for those people.
00:48:19:21 - 00:48:30:07
Mike Park
Yeah I could never afford that. That's for the that's for the ultra luxury super rich people that could afford that. And like, well, what if actually me choosing that was the best thing that I could do.
00:48:30:07 - 00:48:32:07
Amanda Jaggard
And maybe it's less expensive.
00:48:32:08 - 00:48:46:07
Mike Park
Yes. In the long run, it's actually less expensive to choose that, to choose joy and love and community than it than it is to choose shame and competition. And and then that's available to all of us. Yeah, yeah. David.
00:48:46:09 - 00:49:07:20
David Miller
Yeah. I think if I were to boil it into a truth, I would say that the gap is beautiful, like we talk about in our work, like Love the Gap. And we talk about that because most people don't love the gap. Like the gap is shame. The gap is scary. The gap is. And and I like to to flip that into the gap is beautiful.
00:49:07:21 - 00:49:31:08
David Miller
The gap is opportunity. The gap is compelling you towards something. The gap is yeah, there's something so powerful when you when you, when you like shift that relationship with the gap to where no longer am I trying to hide the gap. I'm actually like touting the gap. I'm headed somewhere. You ain't seen nothing yet. Yeah, like there's something really, like, amazing about the gap.
00:49:31:08 - 00:49:48:06
David Miller
Because without the gap, you have essentially arrived without the acknowledgment and the love of the gap. You are just who you are and you are as stationary being. But that's not humanity. That's not beauty. That's not what we see in some of the most compelling leaders that we get to work with, or the coaches that we get to partner with.
00:49:48:09 - 00:49:55:24
David Miller
Like there is something about the person that looks at the gap and goes, see that that that's going to be the future.
00:49:55:25 - 00:49:56:19
Mike Park
Me well.
00:49:56:26 - 00:50:17:23
David Miller
Here, here we go. And I am I'm, I find myself in a new way driven by the gap. And and like I want to look at it again like in the light and go, let's be very honest about what. What I don't know yet what I'm not good at yet. And I'm not saying it in a way of shame.
00:50:17:23 - 00:50:18:29
David Miller
I'm saying it because that's where I'm headed.
00:50:18:29 - 00:50:22:24
Mike Park
Let's go man, I want to go. Love the gap.
00:50:22:26 - 00:50:31:02
Amanda Jaggard
Well, thank you both for this conversation. I have grown a lot and so grateful for the both of you very, very much.
00:50:31:08 - 00:50:32:27
David Miller
Love it so much, friends.
00:50:33:00 - 00:50:53:02
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