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Now or Never: Long-Term Care Strategy is a podcast for all those seeking answers and solutions in the long-term care space. Too often we don’t fully understand the necessity of care until it’s too late. This podcast is designed to create solutions, start conversations and bring awareness to the industry that will inevitably impact all Americans.
Kevin Jameson: That's the key in
discussing this with people
because don't jump to the
conclusion somebody has
Alzheimer's because in reality,
unless you're a doctor, unless
you're a neurologist, unless
they've undergone the PET scans,
the cerebral spinal fluid taps,
the genetic testing, and all the
other things that go into making
a much more precise diagnosis.
I'd watch calling it Alzheimer's
until then.
Caroline Moore: Welcome to Now
or Never Long-Term Care Strategy
making. themselves. with Kosta
Yepifantsev a podcast for all
those seeking answers and
solutions in the long term care
space. This podcast is designed
to create resources, start
conversations and bring
awareness to the industry that
will inevitably impact all
Americans. Here's your host
Kosta Yepifantsev.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Hey, y'all,
it's Kosta. Today, I'm here with
my guest, Kevin Jameson,
Founder, President and Chief
Volunteer of Dementia Society of
America, a nonprofit working to
educate and promote awareness of
all types of dementia. Kevin,
you started the dementia Society
of America after experiencing
the difficulties and isolation
that comes with dementia
firsthand. How did your personal
journey with dementia shaped the
structure and vision of this
organization?
Kevin Jameson: No, I appreciate
that constant. Thanks for having
me today. So you know, the
dementia society was kind of
born out of a need that, that I
saw after my wife had kind of
gone through the trajectory of
living with dementia. And you
know, the caregiving experience
and she ultimately was in a
nursing home in a in a dementia
carry community within the
nursing home. And then she
entered hospice for the last
part of her life. And so I
retired when she entered
hospice, even though I had been
caring for her a lot, I did have
professional care in the
beginning and then move your to
the nursing home. But you know,
the dementia society really was
born out of this, this need that
I saw that people didn't know
what dementia really was. It
didn't understand it.
Oftentimes, the question would
be, what's the difference
between Alzheimer's and
dementia? And we still get that
question today. But when we
started, we knew that people
were searching for help and for
looking for answers. Because
they might go to a doctor, they
may have a loved one with
dementia, and they really had
little to go on. You know, they
didn't, they were drinking water
from a firehose, and they needed
some help. So I felt that there
was an opportunity there to
educate people, because I've
been in sales and marketing. And
so you know, my expertise was in
the kind of education process,
getting people to understand
this or that, so why not apply
that to dementia?
Kosta Yepifantsev: When, in
2001, when as I was reading your
bio, and your wife had a
terrible car accident, she
suffered a traumatic brain
injury, which, you know,
obviously, is the sort of the
initial the initial beginnings
of her developing a dementia
diagnosis. How difficult were
those next eight years before
she went into assisted living
and how ill prepared were you
and maybe, maybe reflecting back
almost thinking to yourself, Why
did no one tell me anything? Why
did no one give me any guidance?
Kevin Jameson: Well, a couple of
clarifications, she didn't
really move into assisted
living, she actually went from
her home into a dementia care
community within a nursing,
okay, which is a little bit
different than assisted living.
But I mean, the reality is, in
the beginning, probably for at
least two or three years after
her accident, it was kind of
business as usual. I mean, we
really didn't think about it.
And it's only in looking back,
that I was able to kind of
pinpoint, a dramatic change in
her personality. You know, it
wasn't memory loss. Initially,
it was a dramatic change in her
personality. And she became very
caustic. And just just, she was
typically a bubbly, friendly,
beautiful person. But but that
personality change caused us to
have some marital difficulties.
And in the process of going
through those marital
difficulties is when our
therapist we went to a marriage
therapist, and counselor and she
said, You know, I think there's
something going on with Ginny
doesn't seem like it's a problem
with the love between the two of
you. But there's there's
something and I can't put my
finger on it. And, and I really
didn't know what that meant, and
I don't think therapists knew
what that meant. She's just said
recognized some something was
off. And so it really didn't
manifest itself in a way that
was meaningful to me in terms of
her cognition, until we went out
to dinner one night, and she
asked me how I knew the hostess
because I walked in, I sent a
letter to the hostess. And she
goes, How do you know the
hostess? I said, well, since
last time, we were here, same
same person. She goes, I've
never been here before. And and
I'm like, What are you talking
about? We're just here last
month, you know, I can tell you
what we had, where we sat. She
denied it all. She said, You
must have been here with another
woman. And that, to me was the
sign. That was that there was
something going on beyond
personality change. And so that
became the trigger for me to
say, We got to get to the bottom
of this, you know, I was
planning to divorce her. I
wanted to leave the house at
least. And that all changed that
night. Because I was like, This
is not right. It's not really
her. It's something that's going
on in her brain. Right, and we
need to get to the bottom of it.
So I just started this kind of
long trajectory of pinging her
doctor, you know, trying to get
the doctor to take it seriously.
You know, and that was very
difficult, because she was in
her 60s. And you know, most
people don't have cognitive
challenges, or, you know, or if
they do, they're not caused by
an underlying disorder, they
might just be stressed out, they
might be depressed. I mean,
there could be a lot of
different things going on. They
might have a medication
imbalance issue, they might have
hormone imbalance, they might
have a vitamin deficiency. I
didn't know what it was. And so
that's kind of was the beginning
of the of the process.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Before we get
too far into the episode. There
are important distinctions to be
made between dementia and
Alzheimer's. Why do you think so
many think of these conditions?
synonymously?
Kevin Jameson: Well, in some
ways, they are synonymous,
because the reality is that, but
they are different. So let's get
into it. So dementia is not a
disease. Okay, that's the number
one thing to know. And doctors
will call it a disease. The
National Institutes of Health
does a little bit better job
than that the World Health
Organization does a better job
than that Cleveland Clinic, Mayo
Clinic, you know, and a lot of
leading organizations in the
country and around the world get
it. But unfortunately, at a at a
physician level of primary care
physician, or even some
neurologists, they will still
refer to dementia as a disease.
And you see that a lot of times
in their webpages, you see it in
care communities, they, they,
they they they call it a disease
professionals, but it's not.
Right. It's a syndrome. And what
does that mean? And how is that
different? A syndrome is a
collection of symptoms. Okay,
typically without a cure, and
typically will be a fatal cause
of death and Alzheimer's
disease. And we can call that a
disease there is a there is a
pathological change and there
are pathological markers for it.
Causes dementia, I say can cause
it, and I use the word can
because not everybody with
Alzheimer's disease in their
brain will express dementia. And
but so vascular disease many
strokes will cause dementia.
Lewy Body disease causes
dementia. frontotemporal
degeneration causes dementia,
CTE, what football players and
soccer players can get can cause
dementia, TBI, traumatic brain
injuries, normal pressure
hydrocephalus, great show the
ACO wernicki Korsakoff. The list
goes on and on and on. And the
the important distinction is to
know that those are all
conditions and disorders and
diseases that express dementia
and dementia to define it is
cognitive challenges as a result
of those underlying disorders
that are so severe that you
cannot perform your activities
of daily living. That's really
the technical default definition
of dementia, and also that it's
progressive, that it gets worse
over time. So when you have
something that's an underlying
disorder, expressing it selloff
in these cognitive challenges
that are so severe that you
cannot do your activities of
daily living, coupled with the
fact that it gets worse over
time. That's the definition of
dementia. So people, people that
have Alzheimer's disease,
typically will express dementia.
But somebody with dementia does
not necessarily have Alzheimer's
disease. And so fascinating.
That's the key in discussing
this with people because don't
jump to the conclusion somebody
has Alzheimer's, because in
reality, unless you're a doctor,
unless you're a neurologist,
unless they've undergone the PET
scans, the cerebral spinal fluid
taps, the genetic testing, and
all the other things that go
into making a much more precise
diagnosis. Hmm, I'd watch
growling at Alzheimer's until
then,
Kosta Yepifantsev: you know,
usually when we look at
dementia, and the syndrome, as
you're describing it, and we
think of ways to support
individuals that suffer from it,
or have to live with that type
of condition, we always look to,
you know, kind of the human
element, the human caregiver,
that's going to step in and
assist with those activities of
daily living, especially as it
progresses to the point to where
an individual may start
forgetting things significantly.
They may, you know, at times,
even forget how to talk, how to
walk, etc. But I want to talk a
little bit about a separate
component of care. And I want to
talk about technology. How does
technology aid in providing
personalized care options,
specifically in improving
community engagement, but also
communication?
Kevin Jameson: Well, it depends
that there are tools out there
from a technology standpoint
that people have introduced, you
know, for folks living with
dementia, and we by the way, we
don't say suffering with. So you
made a great correction on your
part,
Kosta Yepifantsev: yes, because
I've made that mistake before.
Kevin Jameson: Not everybody is
suffering who's living with
dementia, that's the one I mean,
there's anxiety, there are
things that go along with it
that are not necessarily good
things. But sometimes the person
living with dementia is really
not suffering, it may be the
care partner that suffering,
because they're not able to talk
to their loved one as they once
did, or do things that they once
did. So living with dementia as
the way we would put it, and
there are beautiful things that
can happen. And things that
wouldn't have happened if the
person hadn't, you know,
developed dementia, right? New
ways of relating to somebody,
you know, new, a deeper
understanding of one's love and
commitment to somebody.
Absolutely. But when it comes to
technology, I would say the
number one thing is the use of
music. So you're wearing
headphones, I'm not but but but
headphones remind me of the fact
that, you know, one of the
simplest things we can do for
folks that are living with
dementia is remember just to
play music. Because even you
know, a spoken word may not be
understood. But music resides in
different parts of the brain.
And so even though certain parts
of the brain may be affected by
the pathology of a dementia, but
the totality of the brain may
not be and that's where music
resides. Right? Because music is
a is a lot of things. Music is
sound, it's vibration, it's
memories, it's good times it's
bad times there's emotional
content related to music. So I
would always say that that's a
great way to engage in a
community with somebody, either
one on one or with multiple
people is live music, recorded
music, you know, virtual music,
you know, over the whatever, you
know, whatever, whatever form it
takes. If it's related to that
person's kind of younger age,
let's say when they were 1718
What were they listening to? So
for me when I get to be 95 You
know, I want to be listening to
the Bee Gees, I want to be
listening to Aerosmith. I want
to be listening to the Eagles,
you know, but somebody today
who's 85 or 90 might be
listening to Sinatra or Benny
Goodman or you know, Tony
Bennett or jazz or gospel.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So as these
as music engages the neural
pathways, is it the fact that
sometimes especially when
dementia, the syndrome
progresses to a certain point,
does music allow you maybe not
even verbally, but just in terms
of body language and attention
and interaction, allow you to
communicate with an individual
who has who's living with
dementia? Is that sort of the
theory behind it? Oh,
absolutely.
Kevin Jameson: In fact, there,
you know, there is a, there is a
kind of part of the dementia
landscape called aphasia, where
somebody cannot retrieve words,
or come up with the word for a
particular thing. You know, you
or you call it banana, and, you
know, a wrench. I mean, there's
all sorts of interesting things
because the brain is so complex,
right? How are these connections
made? And why would somebody
look at a banana and call it a
wrench, but at the end of the
day, play a song and sing the
verses of that song, they will
sing it perfectly? Absolutely.
Some people who stutter, as an
example can sing well, right. So
this is no different when
there's, when there's a little
bit of a mismatch in our brains
with regards to word retrieval,
and so forth being lyrical in
your communication, singing a
question to somebody? How are
you today? You know, and that
may make an impact on the person
versus saying, How are you
today?
Kosta Yepifantsev: Absolutely.
Right. How can technology create
more independence, and even more
safety for those that are living
with dementia?
Kevin Jameson: Well, I come from
a background of, you know,
having sold and marketed
electronic sensors for 3535
years. And a big part of that
was, you know, door sensors,
motion detectors, video cameras,
you know, and we're talking
about in the 80s, and 90s. And
in the early 2000s, you know,
this technology is just, you
know, really blossomed in terms
of what you could do and how
much it would cost? Well, today,
you know, you can get a camera,
you know, on the internet and
plug it in, and you're looking
at it on your phone, you know,
from your vacation in the
Bahamas. Absolutely. So you're
watching your cat, your dog, but
you know, at the end of the day,
that type of technology, Zoom
technology, you know, this type
of teleconferencing that we're
doing right now can be really
impactful. Because it'll, it
still allows a personal
interaction, without you having
to physically be there. Other
things that people can use from
a technology standpoint would be
the sensors. Knowing when a mom
and dad a husband, a wife, a
loved one gets up and, and moves
or doesn't move, right? If
they're if they're not going to
the refrigerator, if they're not
going to the bathroom, if
they're not turning on the water
for water, if they are turning
on the stove, if they are
opening the sun, the gun safe,
these are all things that
technology can help you with,
because the person who's living
with dementia may, you know, not
be doing the things that they
would normally do to keep
themselves satiated, hydrated
and safe. And so, you know, you
can you can add sensors to the
home to assist with that. People
have introduced apps, and you
know, any variety of tools for
the caregiver as well.
Kosta Yepifantsev: You know,
what you're what you're
describing is believe it's it's
the term is remote supports. And
I am curious, like you work with
people all the time that are
that are not necessarily I'm
sure you work with service
providers, but you probably talk
to a lot of sort of higher think
tanks, you know, people that are
looking at a problem and trying
to quantify it and say, okay,
you know, how do we put apply,
like a macro application to
solving this problem? If we stay
on the topic of technology, and
primarily on the topic of remote
supports, how do you think that
it's going to change in 10 or
maybe even 20 years as it
relates to the care process and
for long term care overall?
Kevin Jameson: Well, you know, I
really can only speak to the
dementia side of that absolutely
great care because, you know, if
you if you if you have a hip
replacement, and you talk about
long term remote, you know,
telemedicine, so to speak, you
know, that's, that's, that's
different, right? You can you
can even film yourself doing
your exercises, you can film
yourself, you can have a
conversation with the doctor,
you know when to press the
buttons and you know, how to
make the connections to that
telemedicine visit. Potentially
right if you're if you're
cognitively intact. But, but
what ends it really least to
dementia, I'm gonna say the
human element is going to be
more important than the Tech
Tech element. And because
because we're human, we're not
machines. And, and having a
smile, just like you're doing
right now, having a smile,
having a warm hand to touch your
hand, a reassuring voice, that's
hard to do remotely, you know,
they're getting better with
remote robotics, but, but I
don't know how warm that handle
will be, unless they put a
heater in it. So
Kosta Yepifantsev: my will
though in 20 years, I mean, cuz
Kevin Jameson: I'm gonna, I'm
gonna say as long as we're
human, yeah, we're gonna want
human interaction in person.
That's one of the downsides of
many, that we just went through
with COVID as an example, the
lack of the lack of human touch,
and the social isolation that
occurred from that. But going
forward, it taught us a lesson
that people do suffer when they
can't. It's just like, if you if
you don't hold a baby, when it
comes out of the womb, it
doesn't thrive.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Right? And it
makes sense.
Kevin Jameson: Humans are I
mean, adults, humans are
different. So you know, that I'd
say that technology will have a
role in certain aspects, of
course. But it will never really
positively replace the benefit
of a human human interaction.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So here's the
overarching question. So a
little bit of statistics here,
okay. If humans are the answer,
but less and less humans want to
work in this industry,
healthcare in general, while the
aging population continues to
grow as a as a imbalance in
terms of relative to the other
populations. So if the demand
continues to climb, but the
supply will not have already
find enough humans to be able to
effectively provide the type of
care that will meet their needs,
without devoting a huge, if not
a outsized amount of resources
to the development of
supplementation of the human
element. Yeah, I
Kevin Jameson: get it. I mean, I
think that, you know, Costa,
here's the thing. Again, if you
look at things that are non
dementia related in terms of
medical conditions, right, so
non cognitive related, I think
technology will be a will, is
today and will continue to grow.
And you'll be able to supplant,
you know, some of the rehab work
that's being done, because
you'll do a self rehab, and
you'll monitor it yourself. And
you'll have others to speak with
about monitoring it just like
you couldn't do an exercise
class or a yoga class online
today,
Kosta Yepifantsev: right at
using the peloton. Yeah, but,
Kevin Jameson: but, but dementia
is different. And, and I will
only say that, you know, the
available humans to support that
community to support the medical
community will probably have to
shift upwards towards supporting
those living with dementia. You
know, if in fact, there's not
some and multiple silver
bullets, right, because people
talk about a cure for dementia?
Well, as I mentioned at the
outset, it's not a disease,
you're not curing dementia,
you're you would attempt to cure
the underlying causes of
dementia. Right? And it's going
to be a set in essence, like
cancer is today. There are
multiple therapies out there,
right? You can literally cut out
cancer, you can radiate cancer,
you can provide chemotherapy,
you can provide immunotherapy.
And you might have to do all of
those things with cancers. So
you're you're you may be finding
people in remission,
potentially, somebody cured of
their cancer. And that's the
type of thing that may be true.
30 years from now with dementia.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Are you
pretty optimistic about the
drugs that are being approved by
Medicare right now to treat
Alzheimer's? Is that is that is
that a positive? Are we moving
in the positive direction?
Because it seems that
Alzheimer's is, I mean, people
that are living with dementia,
the statistics that I've seen is
that it's about 7% of the
population, which is pretty
significant. I think when
Kevin Jameson: you add up all
dementia is it's a much bigger
number than Alzheimer's alone.
Right. Right. And it could be,
you know, our estimates or
estimates are it's double the
number, right. Okay. So you've
got a bunch of folks, you know,
they're living with a lot of
different causes. And they've
been underrepresented. You know,
they're not underrepresented,
right, and they're not
underrepresented at the
dimension. So sidey because
we're looking out over all
causes, and the resulting
cognitive impairment which we
would call dementia, the severe
cognitive impairment. But I will
say this, you know,
pharmaceuticals in general, have
to make progress, somehow. Sure.
But we're not a pill popping
organization, and we don't, you
know, it's not something that,
oh, the only answer is a drug.
In the same way that the only
answer for certain cases of
diabetes is a drug, you can also
change your eating habits,
right, you can, you can improve
your your, your, your blood
sugar, just by eating
differently as well. I mean, you
might have to couple it up with
with some pharmaceuticals as
well. So I think that there,
it's a mixed bag. And I would
say that the people that are
able to and qualify for some of
the new infusion technology
that's being introduced and
pharmaceuticals that are being
introduced, if they can afford
it, if they're appropriate for
it, and they've been tested so
that they're an appropriate
candidate. And they want to do
it for the benefit of others,
that there'll be something to be
learned out of it. It's a good
thing, but it's not for the
masses
Kosta Yepifantsev: right now.
And I I agree with you, 100%. As
you're talking, something keeps
popping into my mind. And I
know, we started this
conversation about the confusion
between Alzheimer's and
dementia. And as you look at the
Alzheimer's Association's and
just Alzheimer awareness in
general fund runs, etc. It seems
like Alzheimer's is a, it's like
leading the charge when it comes
to support for cognitive
decline, and trying to reverse
some of the effects or at least
treat some of the effects of
that decline. This is gonna
sound like a really silly
question. But I just wanted to
ask you, since you're the
expert, why not change the name
of dementia to something else?
Because it just it's, it doesn't
sell well, too, in terms of
getting people engaged with, oh,
my gosh, we it doesn't make
anybody feel. And I know that
I'm making it sound like people
are fickle, but sometimes they
are. It doesn't, it doesn't
provide you with the emotional
sort of pull because of the of
the term. You know, it's like a
variation of demented and
Kevin Jameson: yeah, I would
disagree with you totally. I
would disagree with you totally.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Let me know,
let me know. I
Kevin Jameson: mean, maybe not
totally. But here's the thing,
you know, is, is cancer a good
word? No, no. So there are lots
of words. And you know, we as
humans need a way to express
something, right? We got to put
a label on things, whether we
like it or not, you know, if you
can't put a name on it, it's
hard to describe it. Or if you
can describe it, you know, it's
hard to transfer that knowledge
to somebody else. You know, if
we didn't call a car, a car,
what would you call it? An
automobile? A horse with an
engine, you know, what would you
call it? So at the end of the
day, right, things do change,
right? When we talk about
horsepower, a great example of
horsepower. So that was a real
thing. Right? How many horses
did it take to pull a tractor to
pull a cart? So horsepower
became, you know, related to
engines and engines became
related to mobile, mobile
devices like automobiles, but I
would say no, I mean,
Alzheimer's as an example, but
Lewy Body, frontotemporal
Critchfield, yaka? You know, all
of these are distinct
pathologies. Technically, today,
the DSM five, which is a manual
for a lot of psychiatric
conditions, and human
conditions, you know, medical
conditions, cause it major
neurocognitive disorder.
Kosta Yepifantsev: Okay.
Kevin Jameson: And that's fine.
But that's a mouthful, right?
And actually, people almost
would rather hear dementia than
Alzheimer's. Interesting. And,
and so, we, and this is just
coming from the 1000s of calls
that come in to us. You know,
somebody will say, you know, my
mother didn't have Alzheimer's,
she had dementia. Well, you
know, I don't know what that
means, except to say she didn't.
She was tested and maybe she had
vascular disease that causes the
dementia or frontotemporal or
Lewy body. So at the end of the
day, you know, we impart a
negative or a positive on any
anything we say If you look at a
hot dog from Chicago, you ever
seen a Chicago dog? It's got a
sickle on it. It's got, you
know, celery, see, somebody can
look at it and go, yuck. I look
at that and go.
Kosta Yepifantsev: That's great.
Yeah.
Kevin Jameson: So it's our
perspective, right? Yeah. There,
we can change our perspectives.
Right? We're able to do that
we're human.
Kosta Yepifantsev: And
literally, that's what you're
trying to do every single day.
Yeah. And I, I applaud you for
it. Because educating people on
something that hat we honestly
haven't educated them up to up
until maybe a few years ago, is
quite the task. Before we wrap
up, I want to talk about Jenny
Gibbs, and named in honor of
your incredible wife, Jenny, how
is this grant program assisting
caregivers and those living with
dementia?
Kevin Jameson: Right, so we
established any goes well,
mainly, one, one thing to know
is that Jenny and I met on a
dance floor, okay. We've always
been into music and movement.
And she's always she was always
very athletic, I was a little
bit less so. But the one thing
we know for sure Costa is that
there are non medical therapies,
if you want to call them
modalities as another word, that
positively impact people living
with dementia and their
caregiver. So we talked about
music, but art, making art
discussing art, viewing art, you
know, art in general, just
creative expression, making
music, singing, listening,
discussing movement. So things
that get us to move our bodies,
right, whether it's dance, or
yoga, or tai chi, or just simple
stretching, holding hands,
touch, so any sensory
stimulation. So all of these
things are in the Ginny Gibbs
grants, and any nonprofit care
community, they have to be a 501
C three nonprofit care community
can apply for a Jenny Gibbs
grant. And then we will help
them by supporting their
program, whether it be art,
music, movement, sensory
stimulation, you know, and so
we're we're doing that and it's,
it's their phenomenal programs
to see come to life.
Kosta Yepifantsev: And you guys
are all across the United States
and internationally. That's
amazing. How much money have you
guys donated to this endeavor?
Kevin Jameson: Well, I can't say
Ginny gives specific because I
mean, it's a part of what we do.
So, but we have raised millions
of dollars, and we've invested
millions of dollars. It's
amazing. So it not just in Jenny
gives but in education
awareness, research, we fund
research into different types of
dementia. So it's uh, you know,
we do a lot of different things
under the one umbrella.
Kosta Yepifantsev: So we always
like to end the show with a call
to action. If you could go back
to 2001. And give yourself one
piece of advice on how to
navigate dementia and your
journey as a caregiver. What
would it be?
Kevin Jameson: Well, I wouldn't
go back as far as 2001. Maybe
because I was not aware, I'd go
back to 2000 to 2003 2004. And
say, once something became
evident that there was a
cognitive challenge for me as a
caregiver. Now, granted, when
she had her accident, there
could have been a lot of things
we did differently in 2001. But
we didn't know what we didn't
know. But I think the issue is,
is that when you do get the
inkling of something, then the
call to action is take action,
do something, get a workup, talk
to a professional push through
it don't take no for an answer.
If and write everything down
with a time and date stamp when
something happens that's unusual
for that person or yourself
because that'll create a record
of the of the challenges that
you're seeing either in yourself
or somebody else. And you can
present that to medical
professionals and it will help
them kind of drive a diagnosis.
Caroline Moore: Thank you for
joining us on this episode of
Now or Never Long-Term Care
Strategy with Kosta
Yepifantsev.If you enjoyed
listening and you wanna hear
more make sure you subscribe on
Apple podcast Spotify or
wherever you find your
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Long-Term Care Strategy is a
Kosta Yepifantsev
production.Today’s episode was
written and produced by Morgan
Franklin. Want to find out more
about Kosta? Visit us at
kostayepifantsev.com