Ali Abdaal 0:00
I started listening to your book about four or five days ago. And the very first chapter talks about this idea of me plus, I wonder if you can elaborate, like, what does? What does me plus mean?
Dr Grace Lordan 0:10
So if you I mean, if you go back to the economics were really good, I think it making, helping ourselves in the present day. So we know what makes us happy in the moment. But very often the things that we have to invest in to give our future selves, a better future we don't often do. So what I'd like people to do is to think about where would they like to be if it all worked out? If they threw out, you know, loss aversion? If they threw out fear of failure? Where would they actually end up being? And have that be their meet plus, but before they commit to that being there, me plus really think about? What would that mean plus actually do because I've noticed a lot of times when I talk to people about careers, they're attached to a label, so they want to be a trader, or an investment banker, or they want to be a doctor, or they're attached to a lifestyle. So they want to be able to go on a particular vacation or buy a particular car, and kind of think big journey is really thinking about, if I were to be a doctor, if I were to be a trader, what would be the tasks that I will be doing on a day to day basis? And would I ultimately end up enjoying those tasks, so the activities that I'm going to spend the time in, and there's two reasons for that. So one, it makes you happier to actually do tasks that you like, which feels like a no brainer. But secondly, if you're engaged in tasks that you like, you tend to be more successful. And it's the second that I'm really interested in, in kind of getting people into jobs where they feel that they've reached the success that they want.
Ali Abdaal 1:29
Okay. Interesting. And do you think when it comes to being engaged in tasks that you like, some people say it's a case of find the thing that fits within your values, your personality, and when once you find that thing, then you'll find it fun. And then there's another school of thought that says, Well, you know, the whole finding something that you're passionate about, it's actually kind of hard to do. So think about the stuff that you're actually doing and find ways to make it more interesting for yourself. How how do you how do you feel about those two different different camps,
Dr Grace Lordan 1:58
I don't really feel that they're different. So you know, so people are claiming now that they choose companies based on the values the companies might have. And I think that's true, in the same way that we choose a company based on a salary. But when you're actually in the job, what tends to matter with respect to productivity and happiness, is how you feel in those tasks in that moment. And if I'm working for a company that's saving the environment, but I'm being treated really badly in a micro culture, in order to save that environment, there's a couple of companies come to mind when I think about that, then I'm not going to be productive, I'm not going to be happy. And I'm actually likely to leave that job. So it's more about going beyond thinking, what is the company's mission? What is my personality? And what is the micro culture of the team that I'm going to be working in? And will that make me happy? Will I be connected to the mission? Because my team is connected to the mission?
Ali Abdaal 2:52
It's very hard to assess in advance when you're applying for a job. It's really
Dr Grace Lordan 2:55
hard it is it's really, really hard. And I think then if you bring it down to the tasks and asking you in an interview, what will I be doing on a day to day basis? So when I come to work for you, Ally, what would I be doing on a day to day basis as part of your team? If you can imagine me on a Monday, how will I spend my time, the fact that you, as a manager have talked about that, firstly, will tell me that you're a good manager, because you'll know actually what you want the person to do. And you're not just hiring blindly. But the second is having that information allows me make my mind up. Because if the if I liked the tasks, I'm probably going to like the team.
Ali Abdaal 3:29
Okay. Yeah, that's very interesting. So that was a big part of the message that took away from the meat cluster and the way it manifested in my life. When I read it, I was I was thinking, okay, you know, let's engage with this, like, what's, what's kind of what does me plus look like? And initially, I was thinking, oh, you know, I'd really like to have six pack abs. And then I came across the bit where you were like, no, no, forget about that focus on like, what, what did the tasks look like? And that was like, okay, you know, what, what I want me plus to do is to be able to exercise every day, and to have fun doing it. Yep. And so for the last four days, I've actually been to the gym, I went to a yoga class yesterday morning, I did a workout at like, 8am this morning. And I've never really done this sort of thing. But I was like, excited about that. I was excited that the end goal was not six plus six pack abs, I was excited that the end goal was that in a way, that wasn't an end goal. And it was a case of just, I want to be able to enjoy this. Is that the sort of thing that you get a lot when you're doing this sort of research that process rather than outcome kind of thing. So I
Dr Grace Lordan 4:23
kind of write a lot for kind of people who might have made it Yes, or people who have plateaued. So if you take the exercising analogy from somebody who's contemplating doing the kind of 5k Run, rather than somebody who is contemplating doing the London Marathon and is really well placed for that. And I think for the person who hasn't done exercise for a while, or the person who has really invested in their career for a while. The worst thing they can do is do too much. So if you hadn't invested for a while, the worst thing you could do was go to the gym for three hours. You might get through it today. But the chances of repeating that are really, really small. And I think kind of the one of the big powerful messages underlining thing being gets whether you're focused on your health or whether you're focused on your career, it's those small actions that you take today will determine yourself in two years time, three years time and four years time. And actually, by throwing up, the idea that you're going to reinvent yourself in 30 days is really, really powerful. Because you're much more likely to stick to it, you know, you can accomplish an extraordinary amount in 12 months, very little, in, you know, 12 minutes or, you know, a very short period of time,
Ali Abdaal 5:25
you know, I've been making videos semi themed around productivity for the last four years. And a big chunk of the advice boils down to consistency, and just showing up and taking small actions repeatedly. And in a way, not really worrying so much about the ultimate goal. And these days, I teach I teach courses, helping people become like YouTubers and stuff. And the way you become a successful YouTuber is you just make one or two videos every week for the next like, five years. But no one sticks to it for that long, because they have like the, oh, I must hit a certain subscriber count, I must hit a certain like view count. And my view on this is that having, like, in a way those outcome metrics, the ones that are outside of our control, are kind of unhelpful, especially at the start of a journey. Do you have any thoughts on on that point?
Dr Grace Lordan 6:10
Well, when you were talking, you actually, I watched a video of yours on compounding. So when people are choosing to invest, we accept compounding very, very easily, right? We accept the idea actually, that, you know, if we leave money in for a very long period of time, it's going to compound so we're probably going to be okay in our pensions. And it's exactly the same here when it comes to your career, like those very small things that you're going to do today. And I asked for a commitment of 90 minutes a week, which for most people, regardless of how pressurised you feel is very, very possible. That should compound once you do once you've chosen tasks that align with your meet plus relatively quickly.
Ali Abdaal 6:46
Okay, 90 minutes a week. That's like 13 minutes a day ish. Yes, very doable.
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