Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

"If all you're trying to do is inform, you're not going to pull it off. You have to entertain your audience."
Great presentations don't just share information—they create connection. As Apple's former Chief Evangelist and Canva's co-founder, Guy Kawasaki has spent decades helping people communicate ideas that inspire action. In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Kawasaki joins Matt Abrahams to share practical strategies for crafting compelling presentations, building better slide decks, and using storytelling to keep audiences engaged. From investor pitches to keynote speeches, he explains why the best communicators don't just inform—they captivate.

Key Takeaways:
  • Pitch to keep the conversation going. The goal of a pitch isn't to close the deal—it's to earn the next conversation.
  • Keep it simple and audience-focused. Engage people with clear stories, concise visuals, and a message built around what they care about.

Activity:
  • Choose an idea, project, or product you frequently explain. Challenge yourself to describe it in 30 seconds, focusing only on the problem you solve and why it matters to your audience. Then ask someone if they can clearly explain it back to you. Revise your pitch until they can.

Episode Reference Links:

Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (01:29) - Being a Great Evangelist
  • (02:51) - Why Stories Move People
  • (04:15) - Entertain Before You Inform
  • (06:36) - The Goal of a Pitch
  • (09:56) - Evolve Every Pitch
  • (12:42) - The 10-20-30 Rule
  • (15:57) - Better Slides, Better Presentations
  • (16:39) - Lessons from Podcasting
  • (18:09) - The Final Three Questions
  • (22:20) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Guy Kawasaki
Marketing Specialist, Author, Silicon Valley Venture Capitalist.

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: The ability to pitch an
idea or product well can often mean the

difference between success and failure.

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to this special Rethinks episode
of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

When I first met famed pitching guru
Guy Kawasaki, I learned so much.

That's why I wanted to bring
Guy's advice back for all of you.

And since he provided so much
value, we're sharing the extended

version of my conversation.

Enjoy.

Getting to the point is critical in
all communication, but especially

storytelling and pitching.

My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today, I'm excited to
speak with Guy Kawasaki.

Guy is a renowned author,
speaker, and entrepreneur.

He was chief evangelist for Apple
in the late 1980s and early '90s.

Currently, Guy works for
Canva, which he co-founded.

He hosts a podcast and has authored
many books, including his latest,

Remarkable: Nine Paths to Transform
Your Life and Make a Difference.

Guy, I had a great time chatting
with you on your Remarkable podcast.

It's such a fun conversation.

I'm looking forward to
our conversation here.

Guy Kawasaki: Well, I hope we
can exceed what we did there.

Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you so much.

Shall we get started?

Guy Kawasaki: Yes.

Matt Abrahams: So you wear many hats.

The one that intrigues me most
is your role as chief evangelist.

You were a chief evangelist
at Apple, currently at Canva.

What does a chief evangelist do, and,
and how do you know if you're successful?

Guy Kawasaki: So it comes from a Greek
term that means bringing the good news.

That's evangelism.

And so what an evangelist
does is bring the good news.

And so what is good news?

Good news is when you make
the world a better place.

With Macintosh, we made people
more creative and productive.

With Canva, where I'm chief evangelist
now, the good news is that Canva

has democratized design so that
people can be a better communicator.

So arguably, the chief evangelist is
the chief cheerleader of the good news.

Matt Abrahams: So in that role, you spend
a lot of time thinking about what's the

value that we bring to our clients and
our customers, and how do I champion that?

Guy Kawasaki: To be honest with you,
if you are really evangelizing a great

product, you don't need to spend a lot
of time thinking about what the value is.

It should be very obvious.

If I had to spend a lot of time
thinking about the value of a Macintosh

or a Canva, that kind of says that
maybe it's not such good news.

Good news should be obvious.

A lot of people tell me, "What's it
take to be a great evangelist?" And I'll

tell them, "90% of it is the product."

Matt Abrahams: One of the things that I
know you're very passionate about, had

a lot of thoughts on, is storytelling,
and I'd love to get your advice and

guidance for our listeners on how
best to craft stories that can be

memorable and actually move people in
the direction you want them to go in.

Guy Kawasaki: Well, I can tell
you, like, in the last two years,

there's been something that
truly has helped storytellers.

Um, two years ago or three years
ago, you would have to have a very

broad knowledge of stories, constant
reading, constant watching, always on

the alert looking for good stories.

You have to be really aware that if you're
in an airport and you see somebody throw

a bag down, and you know what happens.

And it takes a lot of awareness.

And I think that there's this story
about how some, I can't remember

which hamburger joint did this, but
they introduced a third pounder,

and they wanted to have more sales,
obviously, than the quarter pounder.

But many people thought that because
four is bigger than three, a quarter

pounder is more meat than a third
pounder, which mathematically is wrong.

But it's a great story to use in
a speech about being aware and

not assuming that the audience
understands what you're saying.

I mean, there's a lot of lessons in that
story alone, and I think that ChatGPT

would've easily given you that story.

Matt Abrahams: Part of a good
story is finding content that

resonates and is appropriate.

When you craft stories, and you are
an expert storyteller, when you craft

a story, what are the things that you
are thinking about in terms of the

sequencing, how you start, how you end?

What, what's your thought process?

Guy Kawasaki: It starts with the awareness
that you have to entertain your audience.

I think too many people as speakers,
they think, "Oh my God, I need to inform

my audience, and I need to, like, get
my pitch across. I need to get my story

across. You know, my people are telling
me these are the three key points."

And so what happens is you're working
from forward from what you want to do.

"I wanna get my three ideas across, my
three key selling points across." And what

you have to do is you have to understand
that it's not about you, it's about them.

And if your audience wants to be
entertained, which is basically every

audience, I think if you entertain people,
you have a chance of informing them.

But if you, all you're trying to
do is inform them and not entertain

them, you're not gonna pull it off.

Matt Abrahams: First and foremost,
what I hear you say is that stories are

natural and lean into just the comfort
and natural way in which we tell stories.

And second, thinking about your job is
to engage and entertain the audience,

and through that you can inform them.

And deciding the appropriate level of
information, a lot of lessons in that

has to do with reminding yourself what
your purpose is, which is to engage and

entertain, and make sure that you just
tell the stories as you normally would.

Conversation much better
than formal presentations.

Guy Kawasaki: I bet you if we had 100
CEOs or CXOs out there and we said to

them, "How many of you believe that
the top priority in a presentation

is to entertain?" It'd be like zero.

Matt Abrahams: Well, just as a personal
story on that front, when I was coming up

in the academic world learning how to be
a, a teacher, one of my mentors, recently

passed away, was Phil Zimbardo, and he
pulled me aside and said, "As a professor,

your job is to transmit knowledge and
information, but the way you do that is

by entertaining. You have to connect,
be relevant and engaging, and then the

students want to learn, and that makes
it so much easier." And I think the same

is true in storytelling and business.

I want to switch our gears here and talk
about a form of storytelling, which is

pitching, and I know you spend a lot
of time coaching people on pitching.

What is the advice you find yourself
giving over and over again about

what makes for a good pitch?

Guy Kawasaki: The problem with most
pitches, it, it starts off with the

fundamental idea that the purpose
of a pitch is to get a check.

And so people have this fantasy that
I am gonna just use shock and awe.

This is gonna be Desert Storm three.

They're gonna just be so shocked
and awed, they're gonna ask me

for wire transfer instructions.

And right there, you're wrong,
and that screws up the rest of

your pitch because the purpose of
a pitch is not to get the money.

The purpose of a pitch is to stay
in the game and not get eliminated.

So you, as long as you're not
a no, you still can be a yes.

A pitch is a path to the next
step, which is due diligence.

So just don't get eliminated.

That's problem number one.

Problem number two is that I think in
every entrepreneur's life, they have

gone to some panel or watched some
YouTube video where there's a panel of

venture capitalists and some moderator
who says, "So what do you look for in

a deal?" And every venture capitalist
says, "I look for a world-class

team with a world-class product in a
world-class market." And then the panel

hosts, they keep going and say, "Yeah,
I'm looking for a really great team."

And we stand by our team, we believes
in our team, we stick with our team.

And so everybody hears this and they
think, "Oh my God. So I gotta convince

them that I have a world-class team."

So the CEO stands up in this pitch and
spends 15 minutes telling his or her

life history that, "My great-grandfather
came over in the Mayflower.

He landed in Connecticut.

He created this hardware store which
became Ace Hardware, and he made a, a

ton of money, so he endowed a chair at
Dartmouth, and I got into Dartmouth.

And from Dartmouth I had a summer
intern at Goldman Sachs, and the next

year I had an internship at McKinsey.

I came out west, I worked for
Google, then I worked for Microsoft.

I took my dot net class." And
like 15 minutes later, like,

"What the hell do you do?

Is it hardware, software, or
whatever?" So what I tell people

in a pitch is you gotta think.

There's two kinds of airplanes.

One airplane is a 787 and the other
kind of airplane is a fighter jet.

So if you're at SFO and you're in a
787, you have two miles of runway.

You can just go ba, ba, ba, ba, ba,
ba. And 1.9 miles later you're up in

the air and the miracle has occurred.

Guess what kind of pilot
you need to be in a pitch?

You need to be Tom Cruise, right?

So in the first 30 seconds you
say, "My name is Guy Kawasaki.

I'm chief evangelist of Canva.

Canva's a, in the business
of democratizing design.

We're an online design service,
so you can create graphics faster

than you can boot Photoshop."
That's the Tom Cruise explanation.

Matt Abrahams: Two things.

One, have the right goal.

The right goal is to just
get to the next step.

It's not to get to the check.

It's not to get the prize.

It's just get to the next step.

And then second, get there quickly.

It's not about building up all the
credibility and explaining everything.

It's really about what's the value
you bring, and get it out quickly.

I think that's great advice,
not just for pitching, but

for communication in general.

A lot of people take a long time.

There's a lot of build-up, and
I think that's really important.

I also think, and I, I believe you
believe this too, that a lot of pitching

is listening to understand what is
needed and what's important to people.

It's not just about coming
in and saying all of this.

The other thing I recommend I'd
like to get your opinion on is a

lot of people create one pitch, and
they just deliver that one pitch

across all different audiences.

You have to tailor it.

Guy Kawasaki: After you give the
pitch about 20 or 30 times, every

time you're gonna hear one different
thing, and you go back to your

office and then you make that fix.

And after you do this 20 or 30 times,
you take back your presentation

and you start from scratch.

And you let the, the 20 things that you've
heard and you're trying to add, somebody

said, "I wanna know about the patent
structure," so you added a patent page.

And somebody said, "I wanna know about
the legal repercussions and trademark

implications," so you put that page in.

And then somebody said, "How are you
on DEI?" So you put a DEI page in it.

And pretty soon you've covered
every objection, and now

you're not Tom Cruise anymore.

Now you are flying a Pan Am 747 cargo jet.

Matt Abrahams: I think that's really an
important point for people to think about.

If you continually build, change, build,
change, build, change, you can end up

with something that's not what you need.

And sometimes it's let's just start
fresh with the input and information

that we had learned, and that helps.

Guy Kawasaki: I think if you think it's
hard to get a yes in a pitch, I would

say it may be even harder to get a no.

Because the positive way of saying
it, it takes someone who's very

frank and someone who is willing to
confront you, and not everybody is.

And so when people are asked, "Are there
any improvements or something?" No one

except me is gonna say, "You just suck.

Just get out of my sight." They're
gonna say, "I found your story about

your patent strategy a little missing."
'Cause they wanna have something to say,

something intelligent as an objection.

And then you're going to hear that,
they say, "Oh, man, if I only had that

patent thing in a slide, I would've
gotten this deal." So you go and add

the patent thing, and then you're
going to have 20 more objections.

You're going to have 20 more slides.

Now you have a 30-slide deck.

Matt Abrahams: So what we really need
is to get feedback that's direct.

Guy Kawasaki: That's so hard.

Matt Abrahams: It is.

But if we can find trusted others
or those who can give it to

us, it can make a difference.

I want to shift gears to
even be more specific.

I know you have very strong beliefs on
slides and how slides should be designed.

You've actually become very
famous for your 10, 20, 30 rule.

I'd love for you to share a little bit
about that specific rule, but in terms

of when you think about slides or things
that we add to support our communication,

how should we be thinking about that
to be effective and not distracting?

Guy Kawasaki: Being a big David
Letterman fan, I figured out that

10 is about the magic number.

And I would make the case that
if you think you need more than

10 slides to convince someone you
have a viable business, that means

you don't have a viable business.

Ideally, you could convince
people in one or two slides.

I think the ideal pitch is you have 10
slides ready to roll, but you get to the

second or third slide and you say, "Would
you like a quick demo?" And you start

a demo, and the next 50 minutes you're
talking about the demo and you never get

to slide 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 because
people are so entranced by your demo.

That's a very good sign.

So that's kind of where
I'm coming from there.

So anyway, the 10, 20, 30
rule is maximum 10 slides.

You should be able to give
those 10 slides in 20 minutes.

I mean, there have been like Nobel
Prize winners give 18-minute TED Talks.

I'm giving you two more minutes than them
because you're not a Nobel Prize winner.

But in 20 minutes, you should
be able to explain anything.

And then the 30 points is because
I think people use much too small

a font and they put complete
sentences and whole paragraphs.

And when you put a sentence or a
paragraph, it's because you don't

know your material well enough.

If you need that much text,
you don't really know your

material, which is your problem.

So Nancy Duarte, one of my heroes
from Duarte Design, she has

something called the glance test.

And the way the glance test works is
you put up your slide, people glance at

the slide, and then they look at you.

And if you put up a slide and they're
like, "The strategic focus of my company

is to enable shareholders to receive
a reasonable return on equity while

enabling employees to self-actualize
their goals by providing a patent-pending,

curve-jumping, paradigm-shifting
solution to the problems at hand while

killing as few whales as possible."
And now I'm back to the speaker.

Steve Jobs' font size was like 190 points.

You and I, we're not Steve Jobs,
so that's why I'm saying 30.

Matt Abrahams: Ah, interesting.

Yeah, it's almost a heuristic.

Yeah, the number of words on a slide
implies how, how well-prepared they are.

So 10, 20, 30.

10 slides, 20 minutes, 30 size font.

I often say the mantra should be
what's the least amount of information

I can put on a slide to add value?

Guy Kawasaki: Again, it comes
back to the fundamental question.

People who put a lot of text on a slide
think it's because they're gonna use

shock and awe to get wiring instructions.

Again, that's a false assumption.

Matt Abrahams: So words versus images,
do you find images, graphs, charts

can be as valuable, more valuable
than just having words, bullet points?

What are your thoughts on that?

Guy Kawasaki: I believe I agree with that.

However, I would say that the
danger here is that, like everything

else in pitching, less is more.

And some people think if I put four
images up, it's better than three.

Three is better than two,
and two is better than one.

But you will flunk the glance test
because if there's four images like

dolphin, there's a picture of a seagull,
there's a picture of Steve Jobs,

and there's a picture of the sunset.

Oh, what were you saying again?

Matt Abrahams: I'm gonna switch gears.

You also do what I do.

You host a podcast.

It's a great podcast.

You've had wonderful guests.

What are one or two things that
you have taken away over all those

interviews that you've done in terms
of a learning that you've had or some

insight that you've gained as a result?

Guy Kawasaki: I think one of the
most, if not the most insight I've

gained from my podcast is from someone
who has an office about a mile from

here, and her name is Carol Dweck.

So Carol Dweck wrote the book Mindset,
and it's all about the growth mindset.

You can have a growth mindset and
believe you can learn new skills

and do new things, or you can have a
fixed mindset and believe you can't.

And that was a fundamental book
in my life that, you know, yeah,

I wanna be on the right side of
that dichotomy, and everybody who's

remarkable has a growth mindset.

There's nobody with a fixed
mindset who's been remarkable.

Matt Abrahams: Carol's work is
really important because a, a lot

of people get locked into that fixed
mindset and they limit themselves.

Guy Kawasaki: Carol Dweck's work was
great as it is, and then Mary Murphy

just put the icing on the cake because
Mary Murphy's insight is, yes, a growth

mindset is primarily in your head.

But if you have a growth mindset
in your head, but you're in an

organization that has a fixed
mindset, it ain't going to work.

So you need to have a growth
mindset in a growth mindset

organization for it to be optimal.

I think even Carol would say
that was a brilliant insight

that added to her theories.

Matt Abrahams: Before we end, I like
to ask all my guests three questions.

One I make up just for you,
and one is similar across all.

You ready for that?

Guy Kawasaki: Fire away.

Matt Abrahams: I know you
have a passion for surfing.

I'm curious, how do you use that passion
to help you be better at what you do?

I think all of us should have some kind
of physical activity that we use or

have that helps us focus and channel.

I'm curious, why surfing
and what does it do for you?

Guy Kawasaki: Surfing is
not a means to an end.

It is the end in itself.

So if you said to somebody, "Why
do you do CrossFit?" They will

say, "I wanna be in fitness.

I wanna lose weight," or whatever.

Um, why do I surf?

Because I simply love surfing.

It's not a means to an end.

It's the end itself.

So that's number one.

And what I love about surfing, and I
started at 60, which is 55 years too late.

I started at 60.

Surfing is the most difficult
thing I have ever tried to learn

because there are so many variables.

There's the water, the speed of the
wave, the direction of the wave, the

shape of the wave, the other people in
the water, the reef, the kelp, the wind,

the tide, and it is both anaerobic and
aerobic, and it requires great balance.

And you're out in the ocean at
dawn, and it is like surfing is

the most fun you can have legally.

Matt Abrahams: I appreciate that it's
something you're passionate about, and I

love that you took it on later in life.

Let me ask you question number two.

Who is a communicator
that you admire, and why?

Guy Kawasaki: There's nobody you
could admire more than Steve Jobs.

I saw him speak several times or
many times actually, and he had

such a way of telling a story.

Talk about passing the glance test.

You could look at his slide for
half a second and come back to him.

He could really do a demo.

He had a sense of timing and pace and, you
know, he could sense when the audience,

you know, wanted to hear this or that.

He was truly magical.

I think it's kind of like the story that
if you hear that Michael Jordan or Kobe

Bryant always took more free throws than
anybody else on the team, you would say

Kobe and Michael are naturally endowed.

Why did they have to
take more practice shots?

I don't know which comes first.

If you're naturally endowed, you
practice more, or you practice more so

people think you're naturally endowed.

But addition to the growth mindset
is the work of Angela Duckworth,

which is the grit mindset.

And I would say that the flip side of
the growth mindset is the grit mindset

because if you're gonna grow, you're
gonna face failure, so you need to

persevere in failure, which is grit.

Matt Abrahams: Final
question for you, Guy.

What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

Guy Kawasaki: I will tell you that the
most important thing is, duh, you have

to have something to say because not
everybody has something to say when they

try to create a communication strategy.

So you need to have something to say.

And, you know, at an extreme example,
I talk to a lot of people and they

say, "I wanna write a book." And I
say, "Why do you wanna write a book?"

He say, "Well, I wanna position myself
as a thought leader and a visionary,

and I wanna build credibility.

I wanna increase consulting.

I wanna increase speaking.

That's why I wanna write a book."
You write your book when you have

something to say, not because
it's gonna help position you.

So I, I think that's the number one thing.

That's 95% of the battle.

You have something to say.

Matt Abrahams: And I heard you say
earlier that making sure that it's

entertaining and engaging and that
it's relevant to the audience.

When we were talking about
pitching, you talked about that.

And I think, but first and foremost, you
have to have something important to say.

And certainly, Guy, you did.

You shared with us many concepts
that I think are really important.

Be present for your audience.

Tell the story as naturally as you can.

Make sure that when you use slides,
that there's a purpose to those slides

and you're not just throwing a lot in.

And an important point also is be willing
to start fresh, to start new, And that's

a really important lesson I need to take.

Thank you for your time.

Guy Kawasaki: My pleasure.

Matt Abrahams: Well, there you have it.

Pitch perfect every time.

Thank you for joining us for
this extended Rethinks episode.