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Work like you’re not a parent.
Parent like you don’t work.
What if that whole system is wrong?
This is Full Stack Moms, and we are Mallory Lee and Shannon Curran, two working moms navigating tech careers, parenting, and everything in between. We talk about why the traditional rules of work don’t fit modern parents and how women in tech are doing things differently. Through honest conversations and behind-the-scenes stories, this show explores careers, caregiving, ambition, and the messy reality of having it all, just not all at once.
Connect with Mallory: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallorylee/
Connect with Shannon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannon-sweeny-curran/
Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com
[00:00:00] Mallory Lee: What you said, Shannon, about, like, Pete doing a great job with the two of them alone for extended periods of time, totally the same for us. Once we had three, I was so terrified to be by myself with all three of them for any length of time, and Brian wasn't. I'd go on work trips, he was there with them, no problem, and he had all three, and he just, like, rocked it.
[00:00:26] I'm like, "How are you doing this?" Like,I'm so scared. And I think it was probably not until Cohen was, like, a year and a half old where I felt capable of just having all three of them for, like, more than 24 hours at a time together. you know, but we got it eventually. But it was, not something that I was excited about doing in the beginning.
[00:00:52] Mallory Lee: This is Full Stack Moms.
[00:00:54] Shannon Curran: This is not a parenting podcast nor a business podcast, but a place where we talk building careers in tech, raising kids at home, and making it work in public. . We are talking to Chantel today. Chantel, what's your family like? How many kids do you have?
[00:01:09] Chantel Hirschel: Yeah, so, um, I'm married to my husband Jason. We have six years. I have a daughter, Colby, she is four, and I have a son, Cody, who is gonna be three this month, so
[00:01:21] Mallory Lee: Oh, okay. Colby and Cody. That's adorable.
[00:01:26] Shannon Curran: Mine
[00:01:26] too. Mine are 20 months, part two.
[00:01:29] Chantel Hirschel: Yeah, I've related a lot though to your story, Shannon, My s-- yeah, my stories overlap in a lot of areas from what I've heard from you.
[00:01:36] Shannon Curran: It's cool to have people on the podcast that have listened to some episodes already because we, we recorded so many before we went live, so like no
[00:01:43] one had heard anybody else.
[00:01:44] And it's funny, the last like three are people that have all heard other interviews, so they've like referenced back to other episodes.
[00:01:50] It's funny. I'm like, "Oh yeah, it's just like totally different now because people have actually listened to some." They weren't just
[00:01:55] like back f- like before we went live.
[00:01:58] Chantel Hirschel: I was prepping. I was like, "I know what they're gonna ask me at certain points during this. I need to be ready."
[00:02:02] Shannon Curran: Oh my God, I love you.
[00:02:04] Mallory Lee: The callback is, uh, is real now. By the way, Grayson, my oldest, he does that. He will refer to things that he's heard on the podcast because he listens to it.
[00:02:16] it's really funny. Last night, Brian said, "Do you and Shannon have the same headphones?" And I said, "Yeah, we do." And Grayson goes, "Yeah, because Shannon said she'll buy whatever Mommy says to buy."
[00:02:29] Shannon Curran: I did say that.
[00:02:30] Mallory Lee: You did. And I just looked at him. I was like, "Okay. All right. You're very good at remembering things. I hope I haven't said something that's terrible."
[00:02:43] Shannon Curran: I know, me too. Sorry if I have. I don't... Yeah.
[00:02:46] Mallory Lee: He thinks you're a comedian, Shannon. "
[00:02:48] Shannon Curran: Me?"
[00:02:48] Mallory Lee: He... Yes, he thinks you're so funny. Like he said, "That Shannon, she's a comedian."
[00:02:57] Chantel Hirschel: I
[00:02:58] Mallory Lee: It's the best.
[00:03:00] Shannon Curran: that so bad today. Grayson, thank you so much. Been working really hard on my comedic timing. Thank you so much, buddy. I appreciate you. Those improv classes in high school really paying
[00:03:12] off in the
[00:03:13] Mallory Lee: you go. There you go.
[00:03:15] Shannon Curran: Oh.
[00:03:17] Mallory Lee: All right.
[00:03:17] okay, so Chantal, you live in Idaho. You have a husband. You have two kids. What do you do for
[00:03:22] work?
[00:03:22] Chantel Hirschel: a director of revenue operations at Sana Benefits. We specialize in, health insurance for small companies.
[00:03:28] Mallory Lee: And the unique fact that I learned about you via LinkedIn, 'cause you're one of my internet friends, is that you are the primary worker
[00:03:37] in your home, and you have a situation where you've been able to get your husband to be at home with the kids, and I just wanna hear all about it because I'm jealous, mostly.
[00:03:49] Chantel Hirschel: Yeah.
[00:03:51] It's, it is definitely unique and it kind of like, it started kind of back in almost like, and truly in a tragedy. so we got married, like I said, in 2020. towards that end of that year, you know, my company got bought out for the first time. mean, like it had happened already before, but I went from working at a small company that was 20 people to, a company of like, I was 225.
[00:04:11] so and it was a rapidly growing company. By the time I left, it was like f- over 400 people. So like massive scaling company. and then I, lost my grandmother that year. Like, and then like, you know, had all these weird things happen that year. But then after that, Jason used to drive UPS trucks. he was a semi-truck driver.
[00:04:29] Someone pulled out in front of him and he died
[00:04:31] Shannon Curran: Oh
[00:04:32] Chantel Hirschel: in,
[00:04:32] a, very tragic car accident. And so that im- so my husband, who had primarily been the top provider at this point, suddenly could not drive anymore.
[00:04:43] Shannon Curran: so he started working in like back in the hub inside UPS where he wouldn't have to drive as much.
[00:04:49] Chantel Hirschel: To this day, he still, he's not a fan of driving, as you can imagine.
[00:04:53] But, um, a- and it wasn't his fault. Like, so just to be clear on all that, it was, none of it was his fault. He was going through a yellow, a flashing yellow. Lights don't flash yellow anymore up here though now. and so
[00:05:04] we got to the point where we got to him working there, and we got pregnant not long after.
[00:05:10] And, we had our first daughter, I got promoted right as I got pregnant, pretty much. This will be a
[00:05:16] Shannon Curran: That's how it always happens, huh?
[00:05:17] Chantel Hirschel: I know, right? Like right around when I... Yeah. And so, and it was fine. It was hard though. I had to keep traveling with her, because she wouldn't take a bottle. S- we were in speech therapy. We were doing these things.
[00:05:27] She was coming with me
[00:05:29] Shannon Curran: we are, Chantel.
[00:05:30] Chantel Hirschel: I was like, "Oh, I get you. I get you." so then I got pregnant with my second, and I was in the middle of a big promotion cycle to get to the director of RevOps, right? Coming out of marketing operations, going into a full director of O- RevOps role, and, found out I was pregnant, which I wanted to be pregnant, but also scary to be doing that, and I was starting to have to travel more.
[00:05:54] And, I got the raise, and I was sitting in church one day, and like we'd always said, "One day, one day we're gonna, we're gonna do this." But like I kept making more and more money, and I was not... We still hadn't like had him step out of the role, and he hated working in that UPS hub. He hated it.
[00:06:10] and he was driving all the way to Spokane from where we're at, which is like a 30, I mean, it's like a 45-minute drive there and back.
[00:06:18] and that's like 45 minutes of straight driving. That's like stop-and-start traffic. Like we are talking like miles
[00:06:23] Shannon Curran: a guy that really doesn't wanna drive, that's like, yeah,
[00:06:27] Chantel Hirschel: Yeah, it's bad.
[00:06:28] but we had union insurance, 'cause even part-time workers at that time got
[00:06:32] union insurance. so this was a big decision, but I was in church, felt convicted, was like, "When's enough for you, girl?"
[00:06:37] Kinda like how I heard, our faith's very important, what I heard the Spirit saying of like, "Girl, I've provided. What you gonna do?" So he quit the next day, on a Monday. and he was home. 'Cause we also, we had no plan for my next trip. Like, we were stressed about how we were gonna keep our kid there and everything.
[00:06:55] Shannon Curran: It was super risky. Like, I always joke, Colby, my daughter, was a free baby, 'cause she was born on union insurance. Cody was $7,000. different. I know.
[00:07:06] Chantel Hirschel: so that's how He's still in the red. He's still in the
[00:07:09] Yeah, he was not cheap. And he, both of them were, yeah, both of them were C-sections, so they
[00:07:17] were extra expensive.
[00:07:19] And yeah, they've both done lots of speech therapy and things like that, because why not make life exciting, you know? Ul- ultimately, none of our issues have been huge issues with our kids, but like, it just feels like there's always that little thing that's there to just haunt you.
[00:07:32] Mallory Lee: There is,
[00:07:33] Chantel Hirschel: Yeah, and it worked out really well, because I was,uh, with both my maternity leaves, I was back at six and a half weeks with Colby, went back to part-time and then was back full-time by 12 weeks, and then with Cody, I was back full-time in seven weeks.
[00:07:46] How was that? How did you handle that?
[00:07:49] the first time with Colby, my daughter, I was deep in PPD. and I had no idea really, but I knew that I didn't feel good. So I had gestational diabetes with both kids, which highly don't recommend. Um, terrible.
[00:08:04] Mallory Lee: Wow.
[00:08:06] Chantel Hirschel: it's back. Uh, so I was like, you're giving yourself lots of insulin every day.
[00:08:12] I'm taking shots like every day. Nothing like I did with Cody, but it's an emotionally triggering thing, I think, with your first, when you get gestational diabetes, 'cause like, if you read literature online, it makes you feel like it's all your fault. there's a lot more scientific evidence now that it actually could be your husband's fault, so I'm just choosing to blame him for
[00:08:27] Shannon Curran: So
[00:08:27] Chantel Hirschel: It's fine.
[00:08:29] Shannon Curran: jury's still out, okay?
[00:08:32] Chantel Hirschel: But I was starting to get like, I w- didn't have preeclampsia, but I was starting to show some of the symptoms, so they had to induce me. So I was like 39 weeks pregnant. I worked the day of. I was like, "I'd like to go in for an evening appoint- I, I've got a problem, guys."
[00:08:45] I was like, "I'd like to be in an evening induction, please." And I worked that whole day while my mom cleaned my house, and then I walked into the induction room. And I tried to tell myself, "It's okay. Everything is just gonna be a, uh, get the baby out. Like I, that's my birth plan, have a baby." But 30 hours later into the induction, her umbilical cord is trapped on her shoulder She won't come out.
[00:09:05] Her heart rate is dropping while I'm pushing, and... 'Cause I was
[00:09:09] Shannon Curran: go through the
[00:09:09] Chantel Hirschel: nine and a half for, like,
[00:09:11] Shannon Curran: Yeah.
[00:09:11] Chantel Hirschel: two hours,
[00:09:13] Mallory Lee: Wow.
[00:09:14] Chantel Hirschel: which is, like, unheard of. And so they, you know, wheel me into an emergency C-section. So it just didn't go as planned. And then, like, breastfeeding is a journey, as we'll say. And I eventually got there 'cause I was like, "By golly, I'm gonna figure this out no matter what happens."
[00:09:29] But then, like, I mean, I hadn't even had my first doctor appointment before I was back at work, but I just needed to feel like I was good at something. I got mastitis in the middle of that. Jason was going through... He had to go through, like, psych evals for the lawsuit that we had, 'cause technically it was an on-the-job injury.
[00:09:43] he was flying out to Seattle to get tested by psycholog- psychiatrists and psychologists. It was like a whole... It was just chaos, and I just felt bad at everything. So it was fine going back with her, 'cause I think it gave me a sense of stability. If there was any time in my life I wish I could redo, it would be then, and I would go on the medications earlier, 'cause I didn't go until January, and it was when I realized I didn't like my husband.
[00:10:05] My husband is the sweetest, kindest, like, most gentle man that there is. Like, just steady. and, the fact that I didn't like him anymore when I very clearly am normally obsessed with him was, like, a wake-up call. So I finally went on the meds, and he was there. With Cody, I probably could have stayed out longer, but, with Colby, there was no, maternity pay, ' cause Idaho doesn't have a plan.
[00:10:28] So that was part of it, is I needed to work. Jason had full 12 weeks off with her, though, because he worked in Washington, and there's, like, a payment system that the state has there.
[00:10:37] The company changed its policy, so by Cody they did have a policy, but it was only about eight weeks, and my boss was about to be out, and I'd just been promoted, and
[00:10:45] Right before I left, I was having major issues anyway, so it was, like, that stressful, like, if I don't get back,
[00:10:50] something's gonna be wrong. I regret it with both, but, make the decisions you make. The advantage was that even with Colby, my mother-in-law was here,
[00:10:58] my sister lives across the street. My mom lives up there, so she was, like... 'Cause I had to breastfeed her. she was never more than, like, 10 minutes away from me. I
[00:11:08] Mallory Lee: Oh, that's so nice.
[00:11:10] you can find reasons to look back and regret things, but if you were in that exact same situation again, it's hard to imagine that you're gonna make a
[00:11:20] different decision, right? I mean, at the time you're dealing with all the things that need to be dealt with and you do what you have to do.
[00:11:28] So
[00:11:28] Chantel Hirschel: They have a 16-week policy here that's paid, and I'm like, "Man, maybe I should have gone for that third." But my husband, I was like, "Get a vasectomy now, two we-" And so we went in two weeks after Cody. So there's no hope now, which I regret, but I was probably more sane then. He's like, "Why would you want another?"
[00:11:47] We're in the middle of potty training, so it's, it's chaos here.
[00:11:51] Shannon Curran: Uh,
[00:11:52] Mallory Lee: Nice.
[00:11:53] So you made me curious, did you have both kids while you were working for the same company?
[00:11:59] Chantel Hirschel: Yes. Mm-hmm.
[00:12:02] Mallory Lee: I'm not gonna
[00:12:02] lie, that seems rare to me lately.
[00:12:05] Chantel Hirschel: I mean, I'm an oddity in the sense that Not at that company it wasn't. It was a good company. if you add up my acquisition time and my other time, which is how they did it, I'd been there for 12 years,
[00:12:15] Shannon Curran: Whoa.
[00:12:17] Chantel Hirschel: abnormal then. It was actually really hard to get a new job because people didn't think I would leave.
[00:12:22] and so, yeah, so I had both there.
[00:12:24] Shannon Curran: And you're not at that
[00:12:25] company anymore, where you
[00:12:27] Chantel Hirschel: No, I left it, about a year ago. Um, it'll be, my first day was July 1st, so
[00:12:31] Mallory Lee: Okay.
[00:12:32] Shannon Curran: I act- when I was at Quick Base, there was, a woman there that had three kids in three years, and the maternity leave was almost six months, so she was gone for a year and a half of the
[00:12:42] five years she worked
[00:12:45] Chantel Hirschel: I hear about that and I just don't know that I could.
[00:12:48] Shannon Curran: I was like, "Honestly, get it." I was like, "I love that for you." Like, and her first two were less, were like 11 months apart.
[00:12:54] So she was like
[00:12:54] barely back, and she was already pregnant by the time she was back. And then she was f- it was the craziest thing to find out. It was like, and like legally, like you gotta let her do it, you know what I mean? Like
[00:13:03] there's
[00:13:04] Mallory Lee: How do you go
[00:13:04] Chantel Hirschel: There is some question, though, I had a friend at my last company, the same problem, and they had to like think about the maternity leave policy 'cause she had them almost 12 months on the day. And
[00:13:13] technically, like legally, they don't have to, I think, it- provide another 12
[00:13:19] Shannon Curran: Think it's one a year.
[00:13:20] Chantel Hirschel: a year. so it's like they advocated for her and like made sure it happened. And by that point too, for most of the people when they started having their babies, they also... It was after I'd already had mine, so most of them got mat leave. it's one of those things where
[00:13:31] you.
[00:13:31] fight the good fight for the people that are coming after you, right?
[00:13:34] Which if I-- like all the stories I'd heard before me, like each layer gets a little easier. it's a big point to me to make sure I tell both men and women, for parental leave, take the time. I will figure it out. You never need to be stressed about that.
[00:13:49] Mallory Lee: That's wonderful. I'm sure that people definitely appreciate that
[00:13:52] on your team.
[00:13:53] Chantel Hirschel: Yeah. It's been good. nobody on my team has kids now, which is weird. For the first time, I have no one with kids in a long time.
[00:14:01] Mallory Lee: Wow. That's fun.
[00:14:03] And when you were at the company that you were with for 12 years, was that also a tech company or was that something different?
[00:14:09] Chantel Hirschel: that company, was a reseller for SolidWorks. It's an engineering software and 3D printers. So when I first started, like at the little company, it was definitely like we were a little local reseller, right? And I went into the office every day, and the acquisition was such a blessing
[00:14:24] And I don't like to say COVID's a blessing, but it ended up changing the world of work. It made it so much more affordable and like, capable of me to do this,When you have gestational diabetes, you have to be in, an office with an ultrasound every week, for the last trimester.
[00:14:39] Mallory Lee: lot. yeah.
[00:14:40] Chantel Hirschel: yeah. It's called like a biofetal physical, and so your baby has to pass all these tests to make sure that they're healthy every single time. which is both comforting but also terrifying, right? and it takes up a good amount of time. So I was in there every Friday afternoon, got to know the ultrasound techs really well, and that never would've worked at my little small company at first, right?
[00:15:01] Like just wouldn't have worked.
[00:15:02] Shannon Curran: Can I just
[00:15:03] Chantel Hirschel: more laid-back policies, yay.
[00:15:04] Shannon Curran: we advocate, obviously, on this podcast, we talk all the time, every single person we talk to is a working mom, right? they're working parents or, and their family is figuring out how to balance career and parenting. How insane is it that you, go into meetings and then have to be growing a child that then needs a physical at the end of the day, but, somehow
[00:15:22] you sent the notes after the call?
[00:15:24] Like, it's just wild. the first time you're pregnant, in my experience, like such a primal experience too. It's the first time I felt very connected to, like, my body, and it's kind of ever-worldly. Like, I know you're a person of faith, right?
[00:15:34] this feels almost, miraculous. And now I'm, like, sitting in this meeting being like, "Hey, who's gonna send the email?" You know what I mean? Like, it's kind of crazy, like, what you're doing at the same time. It's, wild that, I remember my first job out of college, I actually was hired to cover a maternity leave, so I was, like, an intern kind of. I was, like, side-by-side with my boss, and I remember how many appointments she had to go to. And of course, when you're younger, you do, like, you don't get it. So you're like, "She's never here. I always have to do everything for her." but then you look back and you're like, "How was this person even doing this?"
[00:16:06] So they were coming in on the T everyday, on the train everyday. and then going into, like, one of the Boston hospitals, which are super hard to get to. I don't know if anyone is, like... They're at the end of the worst train line. so you're, like, waiting on the train, so it just takes forever, and then she'd come back. she'd come back to the office,
[00:16:21] and she'd finish out her day, and then she'd take her commuter rail home, and, 'cause she lived in the suburbs. And I was like, she's lived 46 lives today." And I just complained that I needed to, like,
[00:16:29] send an extra, like, email, because she was, like, gonna miss the meeting that we had to be on, right?
[00:16:34] And I, I just didn't get it, right? Like, I did not get it. I didn't even... You know, I went to a physical once a year, and that was, like, I felt bad missing work It is really crazy, and I think I'm also eternally grateful. I know we talk about this all the time for my schedule being more flexible.
[00:16:48] When your kids have doctor's appointments, when you're-- Like, this stuff happens during the day. There's no other option, right? it's a lot to balance.
[00:16:56] Chantel Hirschel: moms still get better respect at kids' doctor's appointments. So even though my husband u- can take them, when they're actually sick, it's better if I take them because they listen better.
[00:17:07] Mallory Lee: Ooh, I am sure there's a story here.
[00:17:10] Chantel Hirschel: I wouldn't say it's like every time, but we've just noticed that consistently, like, 'cause Jason, like,I think we've infantilized men in our society a little bit, so it took time for him to, like, take over all the things, right? So he started taking over the doctor visits.
[00:17:23] Like, half the time I don't know when they are. He just is like, "Oh, it's a doctor visit day," and we have, like, a calendar, and he takes them, and I stay here. 'Cause at my last company too, I was in six hours of meetings a day, like, just like this all day long.
[00:17:34] I didn't have time to leave. It was too complex.
[00:17:37] So he was taking them, but they would be like, "Oh, you're dad, you don't know what's up." And like, they would say those things to him.
[00:17:43] got,
[00:17:43] Shannon Curran: mother's intuition, they'll say to me sometimes. I'm like, "I'm not sure that I have that." I like, I
[00:17:47] think maybe, but I
[00:17:49] Chantel Hirschel: But, like, if I show up, they're significantly more likely to listen to my concerns. I'm also a little bit more of a dominant personality.
[00:17:57] so some of it I'm sure is that, but I know, right?
[00:17:59] Mallory Lee: It's all of
[00:18:00] Chantel Hirschel: no all day
[00:18:01] Shannon Curran: This call could not be full of those. This call could not be full of those.
[00:18:04] Chantel Hirschel: No. those are, like, some things where I still feel like... Like, I have never been to one of my kids' dentist appointments. I have not been to a dentist appointment. But I've still gone to a lot of doctor's appointments because the nurses are actually one of the worst, the thing is they...
[00:18:17] And I love nurses, my sister's a nurse, but they don't treat my husband the same as an equal parent, for me, and he's with them way more than me.
[00:18:25] Mallory Lee: I've heard some similar stories to that with,dads not getting the messages from school and people don't expect them to be the default, and so they just aren't. And when you have a setup where you intentionally, you know, he is who you want him to be, it's probably kind of a mind adjustment for a lot of people. it reminds me of how, you know, when a dad takes the kids like to the grocery store or something, everyone's kind of like oohing and aahing like, "Look at you. You're doing so great." And when you said that it, they are a little bit infantilized, I think that's totally true. because when the moms take, the kids to the grocery store, it's like nobody blinks. But when dads do, people definitely notice, I think, which is so
[00:19:16] interesting.
[00:19:17] Chantel Hirschel: they do. My husband would baby wear sometimes, and like, they would stop and just like bow before him, right? Like, It's actually been really interesting with like some stuff going on.
[00:19:30] So my daughter is in soccer now.
[00:19:31] So we've entered the sports season. We try to keep her busy because she is a spicy, fiery little baby girl, okay?But my sister's daughter, so my niece, is on the same team, and we've been talking because I didn't even download the app this time.
[00:19:44] I said, "Okay." Like, 'cause that's again, When you are gonna have a husband be at home, you have to be very intentional about letting go,
[00:19:51] Shannon Curran: Yep.
[00:19:53] Chantel Hirschel: means like, this is all your job. And I think you can do that even in couples where both are working or whatever, but you gotta be good about... I think wives sometimes, I'm not saying all, try to hold onto it with a control thing.
[00:20:04] And it's been interesting having the conversation with my sister, She's the primary parent in hers, right? She's like, "You need to get on there. You need to see that there's snack signups and stuff," And I've had to have conversations with my husband. He's like, "I didn't sign up for snacks 'cause I don't care."
[00:20:14] And I was like, "But you're not the one who's gonna be judged for that.
[00:20:17] You have to sign up even if you're not necessarily gonna do the work, even if you don't care, because you're not the parent who's going to be judged for it."
[00:20:24] like I had to tell my sister, "Just because he missed that doesn't mean I'm gonna download the app and do it. I'm not gonna take over for my husband." He is a competent, capable human being. His
[00:20:34] viewpoint on it was just different, and I had to explain to him, "You gotta think about how it's perceived back on me."
[00:20:41] Shannon Curran: Interesting.
[00:20:42] I also think a lot of it is,we were just saying like a personality thing too, and I, I actually appreciate this part of having, like we have a non-primary parent household, there was two nights ago or two days ago where my husband was alone with the kids for like full days, and he thrived.
[00:20:59] And I was like, "Oh, no." I don't. I was like, "Oh, no." I was like, "What
[00:21:05] have I do-..." Like, I had this, I had a, like, kind of a crisis of, like, am I, like, a terrible mom? he was like, "I think the fact that you care means you're a good mom." And I was like, "Okay, that's fair. Thank you."
[00:21:14] I struggle solo parenting two k- like, two kids by myself for long periods of time, and my husband is really good at it.
[00:21:21] And it's kind of like I had to look at that not as a bad thing about me, but as just, like, a really amazing thing about him, right? and I think that also, whereas, like, I typically thrive more if, we need to go somewhere with them, like, I'm pretty good at, taking them out, doing things. But even, he brought them to the park, and one of my kids doesn't walk.
[00:21:38] Like, he, like,
[00:21:39] I'm like,
[00:21:39] "What'd you do with her?" And he was like,
[00:21:41] Mallory Lee: Go, Pete.
[00:21:42] Shannon Curran: like, uh, he's like, "I just held her." And I was like, "That's great." And,I was like, "Oh, that's it." More 'cause I wanted to learn from him. I was like, "So how did you do that?" I think we take for granted that a lot of things are, like, a social construction of gender, right?
[00:21:55] That, like,
[00:21:56] any of these things are inherent. a lot of them are just personality characteristics of, like, certain one of the parents just are, just thrive in a different environment than the others, right? And I think that is, really interesting.
[00:22:06] 'Cause I am the one that's, on the app during the day for daycare, and I answer the messages and stuff.
[00:22:10] And, like, just 'cause that's, you know, more likely that I'll do it. I think it does require you, obviously, we talk about this all the time, to, like, talk about it, right? Because I think I've
[00:22:17] been also figuring out, I'm working all the time, but also, like, my work is, something I can do next to the kids, right?
[00:22:23] it's a constant negotiation, and I, I wonder if I'll look back, in five years on some of these episodes being like, "I coulda done that different. You know, like you were saying, right? Like, but we're doing the best we can with what we got, you know?
[00:22:33] we're just trying our
[00:22:34] Chantel Hirschel: You only only know what you know right in this moment. And yeah, I definitely think a lot of it's personality-based. I'm... Okay, so it's really funny. Most moms can't say this, but I've only had, like, may- I've had less than 10 nights where my husband was completely gone and not staying in the house with my kids, which is like- Wow.
[00:22:51] Shannon Curran: either.
[00:22:52] Chantel Hirschel: Yeah.
[00:22:55] But like, to some people, that's, like, mind-blowing, right? Like,I've got friends who've got military husbands. I've got friends who, you know, have, people in law enforcement or whatever. It's just...
[00:23:02] But my husband's had a ton. I don't travel as much in my new job, but I was traveling, like, at least every other month, if not every month, in my last job.
[00:23:09] And so I was gone a lot, and so I'd had a lot of time away from kids. But whenever I have a weekend alone with them or whatever, and it's just me, and he's been doing a-- We've been trying to get him out a little bit more 'cause it helps him reset. But man, am I relieved to come into my desk on Monday morning.
[00:23:21] Mallory Lee: That's any weekend for me. I'm, like, excited.
[00:23:25] Chantel Hirschel: I don't know how he spends all day with him.
[00:23:27] Shannon Curran: I don't know.
[00:23:28] Mallory, do you have, like, three separate sports schedules and stuff? I feel like you are probably in, like, the crux of that. Like, I feel
[00:23:34] like you're in a different echelon of, like, chaos of the weekends.
[00:23:37] Mallory Lee: Not right now. It's kind of funny because, Grayson and Bennett are on the same soccer team, and Bennett just plays up to the league above him, and Brian's the coach.
[00:23:46] we can all go together to that. And Cohen, the youngest, refuses to play because he can't be on the team because he's
[00:23:54] just- Way too little.
[00:23:56] And so he's like, "I'm not doing sports," because he can't be on the same team as his brothers. And we'll have to wait and see what he gets into. he's
[00:24:06] been into karate before. so there's still a little bit of time, I think, before he gets passionate about something. But, we're only managing, like, one soccer schedule at the moment, which is great, and the rest is all over the place for the rest of the year.
[00:24:21] What you said, Shannon, about, like, Pete doing a great job with the two of them alone for extended periods of time, totally the same for us. Once we had three, I was so terrified to be by myself with all three of them for any length of time, and Brian wasn't. I'd go on work trips, he was there with them, no problem, and he had all three, and he just, like, rocked it.
[00:24:48] I'm like, "How are you doing this?" Like,I'm so scared. And I think it was probably not until Cohen was, like, a year and a half old where I felt capable of just having all three of them for, like, more than 24 hours at a time together. you know, but we got it eventually. But it was, not something that I was excited about doing in the beginning.
[00:25:12] Chantel Hirschel: a magic age, I feel like, where suddenly it's easier to be alone with, like, more kids, if that makes sense. Like,
[00:25:19] I sometimes have my sister's kids too, but I remember around 18 months, like, I do remember suddenly feeling like, " Oh,
[00:25:26] Mallory Lee: a little.
[00:25:26] Chantel Hirschel: there's a world out here that I can, like, see."
[00:25:29] And then, like, now at three, It's not easy taking my kid- my sister's two kids too, and it's crazy to me that my mom used to, like, take my sister and I, and all three of my cousins, and, like, take us to the grocery shop with one-- as one person. Like, Wow. I mean, okay. Like, and I have to remind myself when I have four children, being like, "People choose to do this by themselves."
[00:25:50] I got
[00:25:51] Shannon Curran: I know. I had
[00:25:52] Chantel Hirschel: for them.
[00:25:53] Shannon Curran: I had someone ask me the other day, so like,
[00:25:55] "When you bring them both to the grocery store?" I go, Oh.
[00:25:57] I've never done that." Like, I've never done that. Like, I don't... Like, where would you put them? Like, I don't know, 'cause I have two, like, babies, right? I don't know. And I can't really wear the little one anymore because she, like, has FOMO and like- is like going like this,
[00:26:11] like flexing her back the whole time. So I was like, "Yeah, that doesn't really happen. Uh, I would rather Instacart than do that." I do bring them both places, you know what I mean? Like I will
[00:26:19] bring them places, but not the grocery store. That sounds ridiculous. I was like, "Why
[00:26:23] Chantel Hirschel: I do that, but that's 'cause my husband and I go together, and the kids think it's like
[00:26:27] peak entertainment. They're like, "We're going to the grocery store." They get excited. But dear all grocery stores, please Walmart, you only have one two-seater in there. If you could think about it, please, please have more of those.
[00:26:40] Shannon Curran: no, n- mine doesn't. My grocery store doesn't have a two-seater cart, so like where do you put the
[00:26:44] Chantel Hirschel: One. Yeah. There-- Some of the ones here have the car ones, man. Oh,
[00:26:50] that's...
[00:26:51] Mallory Lee: for that. Target has, like,
[00:26:52] a train that my kids love.
[00:26:56] Chantel Hirschel: that's nice. And then, like, the ones that have, like, the little walking ones. There's a hardware store. But again, there's only one. I'm just telling you guys, everyone who's listening to this podcast, you need two, because otherwise you're not...
[00:27:07] Also, I'm just gonna just tell you guys this, peak, peak husband staying home, I just had breakfast delivered.
[00:27:13] Mallory Lee: Shut up.
[00:27:15] Chantel Hirschel: Yeah.
[00:27:16] Mallory Lee: Wow.
[00:27:17] Go Jason.
[00:27:18] Shannon Curran: he deliver to the East Coast?
[00:27:19] Chantel Hirschel: I know, babe.
[00:27:20] Shannon Curran: deliver
[00:27:21] Chantel Hirschel: I will text him and be like-- 'cause sometimes I have to remind myself, 'cause the kids are always out there, right? Colby's in preschool, but only like two days a week.
[00:27:27] I will be like, "Can you bring me this?" 'Cause if I go out there, "Mommy, mommy, mommy"
[00:27:32] Shannon Curran: Oh, yeah.
[00:27:33] Chantel Hirschel: So I text him, and so I have a delivery service in my house.
[00:27:37] Shannon Curran: Wow.
[00:27:38] House manager. That's a
[00:27:39] real thing. Like I understand why people need house managers.
[00:27:43] I was
[00:27:43] thinking, you know, obviously we both work full time, but at least I'm in the house, and Pete also is home by like 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon 'cause he leaves at 5:00 AM. and so we have some house time during the day to like try
[00:27:55] and get things done.
[00:27:56] But I was thinking,
[00:27:57] like I have some friends, or n- it's not as common anymore, but I feel like 10 years ago, both people
[00:28:02] being out of the house for 10, like nine to 10 hours a day commuting into offices. like how do you get anything done in your house?
[00:28:09] Chantel Hirschel: of the reason we eventually switched, 'cause we were paying
[00:28:14] so much money.
[00:28:15] Shannon Curran: yeah, offset the cost.
[00:28:17] even just like, I just, like the laundry's like right here. If my husband's listening to this, I did do this one time. I switched the laundry all the way up. Like I think like, he's not listening. Um, but I, maybe he is. Um, but I like, I can keep it moving at least.
[00:28:33] W- it does all
[00:28:34] pile up, and then we end up having to do six loads of folding on a Wednesday night. But if you're not here to just even keep it moving,
[00:28:40] I also understand why people were so extremely stressed and couldn't enjoy parenting, you know?
[00:28:44] Because
[00:28:45] it's, like, on top of everything else, right?
[00:28:48] Like, I, my main priority in my life right now is, like, how can I be
[00:28:51] in a place where I can enjoy my kids when I'm with them? that's
[00:28:54] my goal every day is, Like,
[00:28:57] how can I structure my life so that.
[00:28:58] the hours I get with my kids every day I can enjoy, right?
[00:29:02] And it's not easy. like,
[00:29:04] it's extremely hard.
[00:29:05] Mallory Lee: It is.
[00:29:07] Chantel Hirschel: I love those little guys. And I'm only with, but I'm only with them like two hours of parenting, maybe three hours of parenting a day, and I'm tired by the end of it.
[00:29:19] Mallory Lee: Yeah.
[00:29:19] Chantel Hirschel: only been three hours, but I'm like, "Wow, that was an ex-"
[00:29:22] I mean, again, my oldest is the spice of life, so that's part of it.
[00:29:28] Mallory Lee: Oh, I love that.
[00:29:29] What are your other, like, key takeaways of your husband staying home? Any other learnings or any advice for people who want to do this someday?
[00:29:40] Chantel Hirschel: always laugh, like I am the corporate husband you hear about, right? Like, in some of the things. Um, think whatever you do in your career, whenever you're looking at other people, you got to first ask, what is their support system, right?
[00:29:54] and I think, like this is not even before like you try to become like me, but like first, when you're in your career and you're early in there and there's no way you're ever gonna make it and you're struggling through it, don't compare yourself to somebody like me, right?
[00:30:09] I have significantly easier resources that, you know, I have a low interest rate that I got purchased, was able to put my husband out of work. Like, not everybody can do that, so don't compare yourself first off, right? I remember thinking several times when I was a single person and watching like the guys at work who all had stay-at-home wives who would pack their lunches and stuff, I was like, "Man, I should get a wife."
[00:30:33] Like, you So, I just, you know... now
[00:30:37] Shannon Curran: Goal for the year: get a wife. I
[00:30:39] Chantel Hirschel: Get a wife, yeah. I got that husband who brings me sandwiches, so
[00:30:43] Mallory Lee: You made it... happen, girl. you.
[00:30:44] made it happen is what I'd...
[00:30:46] Chantel Hirschel: Yeah. Be willing to sacrifice things. Like when I made this decision, we were-- It was 2023 when he stopped, right? I've increased my salary by a lot since then.
[00:30:59] Like I've nearly doubled my salary since that moment. it wasn't always easy. it didn't come, like at the beginning, like the first round of this did not look the way it does now. There was no vacations. There were no anything. People like to look at my life now and say, "Oh, well you just have it easy 'cause you have money," or whatever.
[00:31:20] and my struggle has never been the same as anybody else's, right? Jason and I both came into this marriage with houses of our own, things like that, that we've done a lot of things right early. But you have to be willing, though, to have some kind of sacrifice to do this life, and you have to ask yourself if it's worth it.
[00:31:33] So don't compare everybody the same thing. Not every- the same sacrifices aren't worth it for everybody. and so that's just, like, the question you have to ask yourself about it financially, right? Like, we don't ever have a house cleaner here. we keep thinking about it, but that's not something that makes sense in the budget, you know, because we have somebody who stays home all day.
[00:31:49] But our house just, for everyone's reference, a stay-at-home husband does not mean your house is always clean. And he is a better cleaner than I am. I just want to, like, be clear on that.
[00:31:57] Um, and
[00:31:58] Shannon Curran: doesn't mean your house is always clean, 'cause they're
[00:32:00] not here everyday.
[00:32:01] Chantel Hirschel: that's true.
[00:32:02] Yeah. Because we used to pay for that. But, like, I just, I think that it's, those are, like, some of the things you got to think about.
[00:32:07] And then I've really begun to understand sometimes, like, why the corporate husband says the things he does. I've caught myself saying them. For a long time, when I first, when we were first doing this, I would laugh that I could, like ... I actually think I have old LinkedIn posts calling out husbands, 'cause I would, like, I was, like, nine months pregnant, working, and I would walk out and immediately start parenting
[00:32:29] So I, I understand both sides better now. I think that there's grace for that, those things.
[00:32:34] Mental load, though, is the biggest thing. Usually women like us are very successful. They want to be in control. They're good at it. They understand, like, all the tech and everything, especially if you're in the RevOps space.
[00:32:45] You can't hold on to everything if you're gonna have a husband who's staying home. You've got to let go, and you've got to let him fail sometimes. We recently, like, took Amazon off my phone for two reasons. One, 'cause managing the Subscribe & Save is not always easy and stuff like that.
[00:33:02] Two, I have an Amazon problem now. Granted, I can get in there through, the browser and stuff, so I have the app. But for the most part, it was to also help us save money. But, like, giving that to him was also just like a, "I don't have to worry about it anymore. It's his problem." But he,
[00:33:13] like, screwed it up a couple times.
[00:33:15] And he's like, "Wow." And I was like, "See? It's harder than you thought, isn't it?" And so
[00:33:20] Shannon Curran: like a different, it's like a different platform. It's weird. I don't know. Yeah.
[00:33:23] Chantel Hirschel: It's weird, but I love
[00:33:24] Mallory Lee: is the...
[00:33:25] I love the idea of it, but could not figure it out. So, like, Brian is our Subscribe & Save owner. I still, you know, use the app, but he's the one who figures out how to do the Subscribe & Save.
[00:33:36] Bless him.
[00:33:37] Shannon Curran: Pete likes to purchase things in-person, which is good. He's very support local. He's like, he deleted the app. He goes to the store. He's like, he goes to the hardware store that's owned by the local guys. It's very... And I'm
[00:33:48] like, that.
[00:33:49] is very very good of you." So,
[00:33:51] Chantel Hirschel: love that for him. I just live out in the woods. Like- I just Sometimes
[00:33:58] it's just nice they just come to my house. We, I
[00:34:01] Mallory Lee: Can you still get two-day delivery?
[00:34:02] Chantel Hirschel: and moose. Actually, we get one day now because they built some huge facilities. But like, I have moose in my backyard. Like, I have to worry about like wild animals and stuff.
[00:34:11] So it's like a different, it's a different world out here.
[00:34:15] Mallory Lee: Okay. Okay.
[00:34:17] Shannon Curran: we should probably do our, speaking of things that make your life easier, our save of the week. So I know Chantel you've been watching and listening, so you know
[00:34:27] it's coming. So do you have one? Do you
[00:34:28] Mallory Lee: ready.
[00:34:29] Chantel Hirschel: was ready for this, yes.
[00:34:31] So,my advantage for my parents that my husband stays home is that my dad will just grab him to take him for projects. so my dad needed him for a project this week, and my mom took, my kids, and she had my son alone. She went and got him a haircut, which I feel like sometimes is the hardest thing to get done, especially with like a three-year-old little boy trying to fit it in, where just he go-- She took it, she handled it.
[00:34:55] He came back all fresh, looking way too old for his own goodness.
[00:35:00] But,
[00:35:00] uh, that was a big save of the week.
[00:35:05] Mallory Lee: I love it. You just reminded me that I have to get all the boys haircuts before tomorrow. Dang
[00:35:12] Shannon Curran: Oh.
[00:35:14] Chantel Hirschel: What's tomorrow?
[00:35:17] Shannon Curran: So how's that gonna happen? Uh.
[00:35:20] Mallory Lee: yeah,
[00:35:21] tomorrow, um, is our niece's first communion, and then we're having a
[00:35:25] party, and then Sunday is Bennett's first communion, so it's a no-fail situation. We'll, we'll have to figure that out. Good
[00:35:32] Chantel Hirschel: May the force be with you.
[00:35:34] Mallory Lee: Yeah.
[00:35:36] Shannon Curran: Do you have a save, Mal?
[00:35:38] Mallory Lee: I, I do. Um, if anyone wants to save my haircut situation, please let me know.
[00:35:45] Shannon Curran: This comes out six weeks later. Like, so
[00:35:47] Mallory Lee: I know. I know, right? Um, so, Brian was gone this week. He was traveling, and there was a soccer game, so I got to coach the soccer,which I don't enjoy, but sometimes must do. And we were at the soccer field. Cohen refused to put on warm clothes because he just didn't feel like it. So I said, "Okay, you're gonna be cold." And we got there, and sure enough, yes, he was very cold. He was very grumpy. He was very unhappy. And, I took a chance and I texted my friend, and I- Laura, so my save is Laura, and I said, you know, "If you guys are bored, we're at soccer and Cohen's melting down," smiley face, right? and I-- the game was starting, so I, like, put my phone away. You know, I was kind of joking, but then probably like 15 minutes later, I look up and there she is with blankets. And I, I'm probably gonna cry by telling the story, 'cause they're like our best friends, Carl and Laura. And I was like, oh my God, talk about people who just like show up for you.
[00:37:00] And her kids were there, and so Cohen played with them for the rest of the game.
[00:37:05] And I, I did not expect to get emotional about this, but, it was wonderful.
[00:37:10] So she saved the soccer game. Even though we didn't win, but that, that part was still the save.
[00:37:18] Chantel Hirschel: Wow.
[00:37:18] Shannon Curran: Oh. Oh, that is like the definition of a save. Wow.
[00:37:22] That
[00:37:22] Mallory Lee: I know.
[00:37:23] Shannon Curran: so good.
[00:37:24] so mine is, we have a big milestone coming. So Sebastian started preschool this week. He transitioned
[00:37:30] from the toddler room to preschool. and Willa starts daycare on Monday. so
[00:37:35] yeah, guys, I know, we've almost made it. and so my save is that Friday morning, 'cause Sebastian will tell you it's not Friday, 'cause he doesn't believe in Friday, but
[00:37:44] it is Friday.
[00:37:45] we go to this local coffee shop, in our town. It's owned by a dad and his son. and the son has a s- baby, that is like three months younger than my daughter. And we've been going in there every Friday and sharing a biscuit. Probably not good for my macros, but here we and we've been doing this every Friday.
[00:38:04] I go and get... I still am drinking the coffee. I go and get an oatmeal cookie latte, and we share a biscuit.
[00:38:10] And today was our last breakfast, and, of the two of us, before she heads to daycare. And I decided to feel just like grateful for it, you know? Like I, I feel a little complicated about her going, as you would expect,
[00:38:27] but generally I feel like daycare was such a gift to my son.
[00:38:31] He learned so much. He did all these thing- and you know, and somehow we made it for 11 months of piecing together all the things. in our next recording I'll probably thank everyone that watched her over the last year. Um, but
[00:38:43] Mallory Lee: We should do like a credits, a credit that rolls at the end.
[00:38:47] Shannon Curran: For every babysitter I've ha- every
[00:38:48] nanny, Every babysitter, oh my God, it's been the craziest like hodgepodge of childcare situation for the last year.
[00:38:57] And I, yeah, I feel like we're just in a... I think my save today was that I put my phone away. We went and had our, like our last little breakfast together. She had so much fun, and I got to thank them for like being like with us every Friday pretty much, 'cause they say hi to us, and They came out and they gave me a big biscuit and then they gave her like a little tiny one.
[00:39:19] Usually we just split the big
[00:39:20] one,
[00:39:21] Mallory Lee: so cute
[00:39:22] Shannon Curran: today. So that, uh, I think some local community I think is a big save for me, during this, this year has been hard. So, but beautiful as motherhood is. So, big save on the biscuit today.
[00:39:34] Chantel Hirschel: It's a miracle, not magical sometimes.
[00:39:38] Shannon Curran: I love that.
[00:39:39] Mallory Lee: congrats, Shannon, that this is your final day being the CEO of your business with a kid home with you every day. Starting next week, you are gonna have a different mental clarity,
[00:39:58] and I can't-- I-- H- what are you gonna do? you can't get that much better at your job.
[00:40:04] Shannon Curran: Oh, I can. I think there's... I can stop working at 10:00 PM though. That would be really nice if I
[00:40:11] Mallory Lee: That'd be great.
[00:40:11] Shannon Curran: multiple
[00:40:12] Chantel Hirschel: able to take like a 10-minute walk that's just to yourself with silence.
[00:40:18] Shannon Curran: I did book a facial for next week 'cause I've been waiting,
[00:40:21] uh... I've been like, it's the stuff that has to happen during the day. I've been waiting. I'm like, I, I'm like, I can't wait to get a pedicure. I was like,
[00:40:28] I like all the things that are like a benefit of working for yourself, you know? that you can
[00:40:32] just do things like that
[00:40:34] but yes, thanks Mal. I, uh, yeah, end of an era,
[00:40:38] so
[00:40:38] Mallory Lee: End of an
[00:40:39] era.
[00:40:39] Shannon Curran: good.
[00:40:39] Chantel Hirschel: I'm happy for you.
[00:40:41] Mallory Lee: Chantal, it's been so fun to chat with you. Thank you for telling us all about all the things, and, look forward
[00:40:47] to seeing you on the LinkedIn. That's where we chat,
[00:40:50] It was so nice to see you.
[00:40:52] Yeah,
[00:40:52] bye.
[00:40:52] Chantel Hirschel: meet you both.
[00:40:53] Mallory Lee: Bye.
[00:40:54] Shannon Curran: Oh, bye.
[00:40:56] Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to Full Stack Moms,
[00:40:58] Speaker: We'll be back with more episodes that help you see you're not crazy and you're not alone. If we might be your people, please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:41:08] Mallory Lee: Uh, welcome back everybody. We're here with Chantal. Cannot wait to ta- to... Bleh.
[00:41:16] Shannon Curran: Happy Friday, everybody.
[00:41:18] Chantel Hirschel: Friday.
[00:41:20] Mallory Lee: is my day. This is my
[00:41:21] day. All right.
[00:41:23] Shannon Curran: You look fabulous, Mallory, like you're glowing.
[00:41:26] Mallory Lee: Thank you. I think it's the ring light but, um,
[00:41:31] Chantel Hirschel: get one of