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A daily podcast delving into the biggest stories of the day throughout the sports betting and igaming sector.
Charlie Horner (00:01.341)
It appears that Italy will not proceed to overhaul and modernise its land based gambling sector. Last Friday, the Office of Prime Minister Georgia Maloney rejected the terms presented by the Ministry of Economy and Finance on the reorganisation of decree of land based gambling. The mandate appears dead as the Ministry returns to the drawing board on a two year negotiation with the Conference of Italian Provinces that has been continually sidetracked on compensation limits and licensing.
The rejection of the terms begs the question of whether Maloney or any administration wants to fix Italian gambling or simply keep it in its state of limbo. Welcome back to iGaming Daily, supported by Optimove, the creator of positionless marketing and the number one player engagement solution for sports betting and iGaming operators. I'm Charlie Horner, and to discuss all of this with me today is our editor at large, Ted Menmuer. Ted, how's things?
ted (01:25.634)
Very well, Charlie. good good Tuesday. yeah, I don't know don't know what else to say. back on the pod and talking about Italy. So ciao.
Charlie Horner (01:37.653)
Indeed, well look, it's it's you know, Italy is a huge gambling market, always has been, it's been a a one of the traditional markets across Europe. but it appears that the long anticipated reforms on on land based gambling have hit a bit of a bit of a hitch. So what what happened on Friday with with those long awaited land based plans and why is there a hitch in the road?
ted (02:05.932)
Okay, so we're just gonna start by saying look, for our audiences and I'm gonna keep kind of this intro question light, as the issues kind of surrounding the negotiation of final terms on the reorganization of Italian gambling kind of will
mirror the wider frustrations of Italian politics and how federal laws are sanctioned or even administrative changes, which y you know, they they got this history of always becoming like a dogfight between the central government and the provinces that are very divided across
You know, across the map. So on Friday, Prime Minister Giorgio Maloney refused to sign off the draft legislative decree that would have completed Italy's two-year negotiations on the reorganization of laws and duties regarding land-based gambling.
The proposal has simply been set back to the Ministry of the Economy, MEF, to continue negotiations. However, this is on a very, very tight timetable. And it appears that the conference of regions, the body that represents Italy's twenty autonomous regions and one hundred and ten municipalities, are embedded in their demands and no camp is willing to give an inch.
Charlie Horner (03:23.558)
Right, okay. So it it seems then, because some of the disagreements here have been around venue limits and licensing restrictions. Do you think that that is actually the the issue going on here? And that that or these plans could fall apart over venue limits and licensing restrictions, or do you think it's more entrenched than that? Do you think it is that wider political context that you're talking about, Ted?
ted (03:47.951)
It it's much more that. But look, many restrictions have been deemed as like the immediate point of disagreement, but the dispute reflects a much deeper kind of constitutional issue over how much control and central government central powers the government should have versus Italy's autonomous regions that always demand kind of as little intervention from Rome.
Neither side wants to surrender powers over gambling policies, and this is is this is especially in terms of taxation t taxation out of the regions, business rates and licensing, which re which as stands will remain fragmented across all provinces.
The the other matter that has dogged kind of the negotiations is that of compensation, which has never been agreed on with MEF, as provinces can't simply agree on what the final fee should be, and that's dogged kind of the the three-year negotiation. I want to return to kind of like put putting like a simplified frame for this. Look, Italy's has a very fragmented regional structure that has dogged the effectiveness of all modern governments in sanctioning policies.
Maloney at the start of the year lost a referendum on the matter of taking away kind of legislative autonomy from regional courts. The public just said no to it. So, again to simplify: in Italy, the North and South don't trust each other. And everyone can't stand to be summoned by any laws of Rome. So that kind of tells you how difficult it is to process anything.
Charlie Horner (05:25.374)
Sure, one thing that strikes me about this situation, Ted, and feel free to add some some context onto why this might be the case. But Italy did manage to reform online gambling laws and and that regime when it came into effect in twenty twenty five. W what's the what's the difference in terms of the legislative process to get to that point? Because it seems like that was a much simpler process or there was a little bit more harmony on that compared to what
What we're seeing now, w which does seem like a lot of distrust.
ted (05:57.505)
Okay, so th the the mandate for online gambling and actually what happened was the reorganization of Italy's land based gambling laws
was triggered way before the the online the reorganization of online g of online gambling. But I think what the Maloney government kind of soon found out was that online gambling was a much simpler mandate than land based reforms. Land-based reforms would a b you know entail the complete negotiations with twenty states and a hundred municip municipalities that has to agree be agreed on with terms agreed on by the Conference of Italian Regions. So that's always gonna that's kind of a
Federal that's a practice to apply a federal law. Whilst with regards to online gambling, it was just the two houses of MEF and the ADM, Italy's Customs and Revenue Agencies, as the governing department for Italian gambling. So it was it it was much easier to kind of deliver on online gambling as you know, that is not kind of restricted or boundless to the provinces.
again, it comes back to this kind of question of autonomy, the effectiveness of regional governments, how they kind of handle businesses within the internal states and this tax structure across Italian provinces, which always kind of has this conflict with what the federal government in Rome wants. Again again, this is I think part of the issue here is that
The Belone government or any Italian government just doesn't want to confront these troubles, especially next year as there's a general election on on the horizon.
Charlie Horner (07:40.127)
Sure, yeah. I can imagine if you're in Puglia or Sicily or somewhere like that, you don't want Rome telling you where you can and can't have a a a a bookie shop. So yeah, I can see why it's a little bit more complicated than online. just bringing this back then, Ted, into the context of Maloney and you you said there that there's a there's a general election next year. Should we be viewing this sort of hiccup as a as a setback for Maloney's broader gambling reform agenda or
Do you think it is just back to that context of there's a complicated negotiation going on between the federal government and and the regions?
ted (08:19.018)
It's it's interesting because I mean for
Italy, I mean the Maloney gov the Maloney government has been since she came on board, Georgia Maloney, has has actually been very consistent. And even in comparison to the UK, I mean, I think sin we've had four or five Prime Ministers since her kind of tenure in government in Italy, and one of the kind of agendas I think she's looked at kind of individual tax generating economies of Italy and did kind of prioritize changes for for gambling.
And again, as you're saying, they have been effective in terms of the mandate for online gambling. It's just they haven't progressed anywhere near with the the land based doctrine. Italy still to me is or what Italy has shown is that you can change
the perception of gambling, you can change the laws governing gambling and you can kind of return back to the mandate and fix the industry. It's been a long road for them, but they did get there.
Charlie Horner (09:26.93)
Yeah, I'm just gonna r let you rewind here, Ted, to the the time when Maloney was was elected as as Italian PM. Do you wanna do wanna guess when that was and and who the UK Prime Minister was at the time?
ted (09:42.835)
good. I would have gone. I think it's pr I think it'll be Therese May.
Charlie Horner (09:50.833)
It was it was a lot s sooner th sooner than that. It was September twenty twenty two. And it was Liz Truss. A lot's happened since then. A lot's happened since then. Okay, well better luck next time on the iGaming Daily quiz, Ted. but before we go for a quick break, we we should say that there's there's a little bit of a rush to
ted (09:58.723)
Mm-hmm. right. Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Charlie Horner (10:18.162)
to get any amendments through or or a new plan through because there's a deadline of of the end of August before the budget needs to be signed off. d do you think there's time to find a resolution or do do we think that there's just gonna be a another state of limbo?
ted (10:34.912)
No, I think from feedback provided to to our partners, Aji Pro News, it looks like a dead matter. And the government's priority now and it's on Maloney's instructions is they want kind of a clear sign off on the budget, no delays there, especially with that with the budget that delivers for the next general election.
And I just think that there is in in terms of in Rome I think that there is a kind of a limited capital or political will to even re-begin negotiations. I think part of that is because at a provincial level, yeah, gambling is a sensitive matter. Yet in terms of the public it's not something that is gonna rock the boats for an election. You're better off just leaving it sidetracked.
Charlie Horner (11:23.198)
Sure. Well look Ted, we'll take a very short break and we'll come back and we'll talk about some of the reaction and how we think gambling policy will will be made in in Italy in the future. So join us after the break.
Charlie Horner (11:56.329)
Welcome back to iGaming Daily. Ted, if there's one thing that we know that operators like is it's a bit of certainty and a bit of clarity about what's going to happen. And operators who are waiting on new land based licenses, they've waited more than two years for for these negotiations to happen. They're they're it looks like they're gonna be left in in limbo for for even longer. How do you think operators are are reacting to this news?
ted (12:25.258)
It's frustrating and especially in terms of
their licensing concessions, which the government has responded and they will be renewed from the 31st of December for another year. However, it kind of does leave them in this state of having to do this every year. And it impacts kind of that long-term commitment to investment and strategic planning of the market itself. Yet I was able to kind of tune into kind of Lotomatica's H H H1 statement.
And leadership there noted that they did expect a delay and that this had been forthcoming, which they saw kind of no movement on the the negotiations. CEO Kijadmo Angelonsi
In his view, he said that land-based gambling just can't enter its kind of next phase phase of consolidation until licensing is sorted and enders any kind of form of kind of regional laws being unified. However, in terms of the business itself, Lotomatica, he stated that Automatica is just too big a fish to be kind of affected by them. He says that that kind of stalemate actually plays in their favour, and it's for kind of the the smaller firms that need to worry about kind of the uncertainty.
Yeah.
Charlie Horner (13:47.187)
That's an interesting perspective actually, because I I'd have assumed that it it might have been less helpful for those traditional Italian operators. but I guess you're you're always trying to reflect a bit of confidence and and reassurance to the markets when you're presenting your your earnings in those situations. but Ted, who who do you think stands to lose the most if if these negotiations continue to drift? Because you you said there that's you know, it's certainly not helpful for the industry, but some of the
ted (13:58.563)
Okay.
Charlie Horner (14:15.144)
Bigger operators might be shielded from it. Do you think the industry stands to lose most? Do you think it might be the the central government or the regions? Sure, sure.
ted (14:20.608)
I think there are there are no winners. Sorry. Charlie there there's just simply no winners here. And in terms of the you know, the for example the MEF put out an estimate and it believes that it's gonna lose circa one point five billion in new permits and licensings allowed for retail gambling in in Italy.
and then here is that as the licenses have said, they're not allowed to kind of any kind of long term planning in terms of their stra their commercial strategy for Italian venues. However, I think kind of the the biggest criti the biggest critic or the biggest loser here will be kind of the the Italian court and j judiciary.
Who forced the matter to kind of be reopened or be put through to to Parliament and to the Italian government because as as as you mentioned, kind of concessions were were expiring with no kind of grants for renewal, and this has brought kind of a backlog of Italian legal cases against kind of the AD the ADM.
into in how it kind of governed Italian gambling licenses and that kind of matter might be reopened. If there's any any stakeholder that can press the government, it's gonna have to be Italy's legal courts.
Charlie Horner (15:48.019)
Well that that's sort of leads me into the the next question then really. I guess if it if it is the courts that are going to push on, it would appear that the government isn't that interested in in sort of letting this topic sort of dominate the headlines or or or parliamentary time over the next year, particularly with an election on on the horizon. we we've seen in Brazil that as part of his election campaign President Lula is is
using online casino legislation as a as a bit of a a campaign tool in terms of banning online casino there. Strikes me though that George Maloney might not be of the same mindset to to use gambling as an election campaigning tool. But d do you do you expect the MEF and Maloney to to return to the negotiating table with that election on the horizon next year?
ted (16:46.042)
I mean much depends on how much pressure kind of Italian courts can apply and what route they take to actually question what's happened to the Maloney government. So there is kind of that window. The problem is that I think the the Maloney government and her advisors would tell her just don't touch it, don't go there. It's not a concern, it's not an immediate concern for your agenda coming into twenty twenty seven. As mentioned, like the priority here now is budget sign off, right? Also, like every
European nation, Italy is fighting kind of these, you know, is combating these kind of generational questions in terms of its welfare state, inflation, stuff that takes a much bigger priority than land-based gambling laws. I think on a on on reflection, whether the big question is I think that
This isn't gonna play out in twenty twenty six. It's whether anyone at MEF wants to take this up in twenty twenty seven and and get it back in get get a spotlight back on finishing the negotiations. And again that will have to start from ground zero with the provinces. It's gonna be a tough, tough task.
Charlie Horner (18:04.774)
Sure. I think it's yeah, fairly unlikely when there's defence and welfare and inflation and interest rates to think about the gambling regulation of of of bookies might not be at the top of the the agenda. let's bring things towards a bit of a close, Ted. and the thing that strikes me about Italy is that there is there has been this huge stall on land based regulation, yet the online sector has has pushed on.
And it's pressed the accelerator and that regime went live at the end of twenty twenty five. What what do you think this news or this latest development has told us about the the wider direction of Italian policy? And do you think it's just operating on two different speeds or or perhaps on two different tracks altogether?
ted (18:37.922)
Mm-hmm.
ted (18:55.518)
It's it's a good question to to sign off and when you weigh up the whole scenario what Italian gambling has been through, I think or I believe that the Maloney government has been one of the more progressive governments in Europe in its in how it handles gambling.
again the launch of a no of the new online gambling regime was executed well and you saw a government that wanted to kind of iron out the the generational issues surrounding the governance of gambling. Also, the ADM has been overhauled in how in its oversight of gambling and it leads kind of other European regulators in policy making. I mean, case in point, it's got its forthcoming launch of a protective wall of Italian gambling licenses.
In all, we all know kind of Italy's not perfect. it's still governed by the dignity decree, and that's something that has to be kind of upended because it's prohibited it's put a pro prohibition there on advertising and sponsorship, and it's affected kind of the the funding of of Italian football, and that is something that needs to be urgently fixed.
so again, I've got kind of mixed feelings about Italy. In many ways, it's it's it's been the most kind of progressive state in its governance of gambling. But it just kind of seems to always kind of slip at the final hurdle. but again, I don't think that that's very kind of different to what a lot of states have been. I mean, even the UK compared. We're now kind of five years into our review.
You know, I'll just say that stability matters in in in policy making and that's something that gambling can't hide away from and it it impacts the the future of any kind of gambling regime and that's that's clearly visible.
Charlie Horner (20:55.496)
Yeah, well I I don't think Italy is the only state that's struggling with its gambling regulation policy of that. I think that's for certain. we're seeing it all over the continent in in the last couple of years. But Ted, thanks ever so much for pr providing a breakdown and bringing bringing your expert insights into this conversation. So thanks a lot. Thanks to Optimu for supporting the show as always, and to our listeners. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of iGaming Daily and come back tomorrow to keep up to date with all the latest global gambling news.