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The Thin Veil is a show for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of Palestine—and what Palestine can reveal about the systems shaping our world. Hosted by musician/activist and anti-Zionist Jew Ezra Lipp, who was raised in a Zionist ecosystem and is now, as always, on a continuing journey of learning and unlearning.
Through long-form conversations with historians, journalists, artists, activists, and people with lived experience, the show explores Palestine not in isolation, but as a window into questions of power, history, identity, media, ideology, resistance, and the stories we inherit about the world around us.
Ezra Lipp: Coming up on The Thin Veil
Hamze Awawde: You have a foreign
group of people, extremely related
to Israel and the Israeli narrative,
choosing who to speak and not.
What I saw is just a need to bring
any two Israelis and Palestinians
and take the photo to get money.
If they would write a statement
about certain atrocity that the
Israelis done, they would be
extremely careful on how they write.
So if we go to a synagogue in California,
why don't we tell them things as they are?
They are free afterward with
whatever they do with the message.
I am a witness here.
I wanna tell you things as they are.
But if I come to confirm all your
biases or to pacify you or to keep
you comfortable, not telling you
anything that would challenge you.
So you would come, you get entertained,
you give money, and you go home.
They're neutralizing activists by making
them performers for money, because if they
don't do this, they don't get the gig.
Ezra Lipp: Well, hello and
welcome back to The Thin Veil.
I, as always, am your host, Ezra Lipp.
The Thin Veil is a show featuring
conversations lifting the veil
on the world through Palestine.
I think that's the more
accurate theme for the show.
if you're a first-time listener,
thank you for being here.
I'm glad you found us.
If you're a returning listener,
thank you so much for coming back.
Your presence and your support and
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really helps get the word out there,
get the message out there, and get
these conversations out there, because I
believe these are important conversations
that should be shared and spread.
If you are here, you probably
believe the same thing, so thank
you so much for helping in that.
I'm very excited to air this conversation.
I think this is an important conversation,
particularly an important conversation
to share with some people you know
that might still consider themselves
Zionists or, really subscribe
to this idea of, coexistence and
dialogue work as a resolution to the
devastating situation in Palestine.
because, as this episode will
reveal, it is not a solution
intended to free Palestine.
and my guest today illustrates this.
He, is a extraordinary writer, and
I will link to o- some of his essays
on Substack below because as much as
he's an amazing speaker, you should
really check out his writing because
he is brilliant and incredibly,
articulate and, compelling writer.
And you could support him
through his Substack channel,
become a subscriber there.
My guest is a Palestinian born in the West
Bank who spent 19 years in, quote-unquote,
the peace industry, where he would, speak
alongside Israeli counterparts, He's
appeared on stages all over the world.
He's been on all the major TV news
networks, talking about peace and
dialogue and coexistence, with Israelis,
and just in the last, uh, more recent
times, has begun speaking out around
the let's say the dishonest, corrupt,
and manipulative nature of that industry
and how it is actually not meant for a
tool to work towards peace, but it is
actually instrumentalized as a tool to
defer real resolution, real solutions
and just work in favor of continuing
Zionist domination of both the fields
and Zionist domination of Palestine.
I won't say too much more, Without
further ado, please enjoy my conversation
with the amazing Hamze Awawde
Hamze Awawde: I was born
in a town called Dura.
It's in the southwest of
Hebron in the West Bank.
I was born 1990.
I came from a family, that had,
roots in the Palestinian, resistance.
My grandfather was, the first who
created the first, way before I was
born, 13 years before I was born.
but, coming with this legacy to life, in
the town, he was extremely respected, as
people knew him, on the personal level
and also for his, sacrifices and bravery.
it was also times when Oslo Accord
was signed and, the word of peace and,
different, approach to the conflict and
that we should, compromise and, move,
on from the past, focus on our lives,
education, health, all these, narratives
that came with the peace process.
I grew up with this and, uh, as a child,
I couldn't reconcile how, I would, trade
the fact that Israel or the Zionist
movement with its action killed my
grandfather, who was killed in his town.
He didn't go somewhere else to hurt
people or, and, and was killed.
the troubles came to him, and he
lost land in 1948, and he saw 1967
occupation as a continuation of that,
process and, he choose that he would
rather die than accept, another loss.
But, I grew up and, my
family, not ideological.
they are, uh, proud Palestinians,
but, open-minded to all ideas and
all, narratives and, education
about all sides And my father was
doing business with Israelis back
then and, all these experiences
shaped who I am, as a teenager,
which was already a Second Intifada.
And I was like, if peace
means a normal life, why not?
if it means to focus only on the future
and, as a idealistic teenager who
had internet and, read about, South
Africa and, India and had a lot of,
idealistic, visions about the world,
I was keen to, I was keen to explore.
I said, maybe, there are people who also
on the other side would do, the least
bloody thing of acknowledging our pain
and acknowledging our existence and
acknowledging, the common sense that,
it's better for them to give us our rights
and our life because if I have a nice
life, why I would, want to hurt anyone?
Why I would want to die and suffer?
So I joined, these, post-Oslo, you
know, NGOs that run dialogue, programs
and, I was extremely, enthusiastic and
excited and somehow blind even, uh,
because I was so much a beneficiary of
such a vision to come, to come true.
being, have-- witnessing
the Second Intifada.
Twice
a bullet landed close to my
head while I was sleeping.
our house was, destroyed.
a, a lot of people I knew were killed.
I wanted the opposite of that, sincerely.
but, during these years, I witnessed
in these, organizations pretty much, an
attempt to engineer a fake reality of,
dialogue going on between Palestinians
and Israelis and the narrative that,
this conflict is being taken care of.
while in reality it was the same
people coming, talking whatever the
donor wants to hear, which is pretty
much something around, "Yeah, we
should have the two-state solution,
and Hamas is bad," and, settlers
maybe they would say bad, but it
will be less affirmative than Hamas.
Hamas is bad like non- non-questionable.
That's no one has to discuss.
But settlers, it's which settlers and,
settlers, maybe they can be in Palestine.
But like always excuses to all the
Israelis', side of the problem.
But, I haven't seen any, true peace work.
people wouldn't talk about even
getting to know each other in a person.
It's just like a, a show where, where
people come to a fancy hotel and, and take
the photos that would be used outside,
to show, that the conflict is being taken
care of, and also to shape the narrative.
Because if you get a Palestinian…
So Palestinian, who get invited to
this has to fit a certain criteria,
has to be in a way, accommodating to
all the sensitivities of the Israeli
side, because if they are not, the
Israeli will not come, and the Israeli
is the most important in the formula.
So it's a natural selection.
If you would come as a Palestinian, and
you would say, "Well, we have to talk
about Zionism," That, that will open,
hell on you, and you will not be invited
to that cool trip to Rome, for example,
it's n- so people learn unconsciously
how to speak and how to say things, and
then the better you get, you might get
a job in the field, and you start being,
invested in this and also complicit
in keeping certain narrative within
that, field, I was able, to be honest,
to kind of speak my mind, while being
adjacent to this, to this organization.
They wouldn't, promote me, but
because, I worked hard on, on my
work, on my writing, on my, advocacy,
on my reach outs, they would find
me in the same meeting with them.
Like there would be the EU that
invites the, the peace industry.
and they will invite me under the
banner of peace, but I was not directly,
nominated by the peace industry.
and they tolerated me.
I would speak something different.
I would have different voice, and they
would say their, their typical, carefully
created language about like both sides
pain and, both sides have, uh, radicals
and, the solution is to give money,
more money to these organizations.
So like, we don't need sanctions.
we don't need, um, mechanism
to protect the Palestinians.
We don't need to force a UN resolution.
We don't need all of… Anything that
would, they call it delegitimize Israel,
they would never say or like tie the
hands of Israel, they would never say.
After they speak about both sides
and making everything look like, you
know, equally problematic on both
sides, they would say give money to
these organizations, and the money
comes and, also from the Western side,
who are extremely, involved on the
actions of Israel, whether by giving
diplomatic, protection or military
assistance or, economic investments.
they would give a few millions to these
organizations, that, keep the narratives
in the Western public that their
governments are also involved in peace.
They're not just involved
in the status quo and the
oppressions of the Palestinians.
Ezra Lipp: so it sounds like when you
first started doing this work, you
genuinely believed in it and you genuinely
believed, that it could be effective.
I'm wondering when in the process,
if you could tell us a story about
maybe the first time something that
happened that made you kind of question
that this might not have been what
you initially were signing up for?
Hamze Awawde: It was
honestly in everything.
the way, the way they spoke, to the
outside, So the theory of change that
as I understood it when I entered
the, the field, is that we need to
create public legitimacy for peace.
And the, the way I understood getting
public legitimacy for peace is to put
people to speak very honestly and very
authentically and very freely about
how they relate to this conflict and
what they believe and what they…
And maybe facilitate this process so
they reach out to, a roadmap, a vision
of how to, be on the peace side.
it's like a healing process.
But what I saw is just a need to bring
any two Israelis and Palestinians
and take the photo to get money.
But while the process that happens
there is just an Israeli lecturing a
Palestinian about how stupid they are and
why they deserve to be in this situation.
Over and over, the common thing you
would hear from any Israeli in that,
in that, process about why Palestinians
and certain actions they have done
are responsible for the occupation.
this is before October 7th, for example.
And the radi- the radicalization
of the their society and that, they
rejected all the peace attempts.
And the Palestinian would be
there on the defense all the time.
And, I see a kind of bias that, the
organization would accommodate the Israeli
before even accommodating the Palestinian.
So if they would write a statement
about certain atrocity that the
Israelis done, they would be
extremely careful on how they write.
they would just say general things like
violence and, escalation, and wh- while
it would be, 20 people killed in Nablus
and a whole day where people were under
violence And I would come and say our job
are not to be like, like a diplomat, in
a country where just say general things
and like we, we are the active, we are
on the ground, we are the truth teller.
We know that, this is extremely
dangerous what happened.
We know this is part of series of
actions and also part of a bigger things
that's going on that's gonna escalate.
Why we don't shout and
say to our audience?
So if we go to a synagogue in California,
why don't we tell them things as they are?
They are free afterward with whatever
they do with, with the message.
I am a witness here.
I wanna come and tell you, you could
be Zionist, you could be the most,
uh, hateful, but if it happened that I
came to you and, was, given a platform
to speak, I wanna tell you things as
they are, and you are free afterwards.
But if I come to confirm all your
biases or to pacify you or to keep you,
comfortable, not telling you anything
that would, challenge you, so you would
come, you get entertained, you give
money, and you go home, then I feel
that there is a lot of, problems here.
In a way, they're neutralizing
activists by making them, performers
for money, because if they don't
do this, they don't get the gig.
They don't get the money.
so they just, you know, find a
Palestinian, again, who's not
challenging in any way, who's extremely,
neutralized, including emotionally,
Ezra Lipp: Are these
Zionist-funded, who's funding these?
Hamze Awawde: Israelis are beneficiary.
The, usually the money comes from
American Zionist, donors, whether
Jewish or non-Jewish, who for the
first, loyalty they have is to the
image of the state of Israel I would
just say that, many of the same donors
to AIPAC gives money to this field.
for example, uh, OMEP, Alliance for
Middle East Peace, which is like the,
It's a company, foreign company that
monopolize who get to speak in this field.
It's, it has a foreign board and,
uh, f- white man, managing it
who decides which Palestinian is
legitimate to speak and which not.
And he told me frankly, you don't get
to speak, about Palestine." Like, he
decided that, uh… So when I criticize
these people, it was AIPAC, leadership
who c- came against me and got angry
at me, and was not talking about AIPAC.
So why would AIPAC get angry about
a Palestinian criticizing the
peace industry if it's not part of
their narrative-building ecosystem?
Ezra Lipp: So a lot of people would think
that these sort of peace NGOs would be,
antithetical to what AIPAC represents,
but Are you saying that actually they
are, directly or indirectly part of
their same goals, but just kinda a
different end of it than, a more liberal
end than the more right-wing end.
Hamze Awawde: from the observation of how
and who came against me when I criticized
the industry, I don't have the tools, I'm
not a government, I'm not a big entity
to, like, go into the files and see.
But, it's clearly from also the messaging
that they put, the way they work.
Remember when, there was the
student encampment and the protests?
The peace industry immediately,
recruited, speakers.
I was interviewed too, and I was
asked literally, do you consider
what happened in Gaza genocide?"
I said, "As a Palestinian, yes.
this is our, case in the,
International Court of Justice.
We are accusing Israel of carrying out
genocide in Gaza because of, the, the
way, the war was conducted and the way,
the threats and the dehumanization,
that, the soldiers, were prepared
to carry out, the testimonies, the
starvation, the blockage and all of that.
But I am open-minded also to say
that Israel also free in the court
to defend itself, and I would accept
the ruling of the judge." I was out.
So they recruited, a group of people,
and turned them to, to come to the
campuses and kind of indirectly shame
the students because the students
are blocking peace by their anger.
They are, the students are more, more
radical than the Palestinians because
they brought a certain Palestinian who,
uh, perhaps more, favorable in his speech
to Israeli interest than his people.
They brought that person, gave, five
thousand dollars for each event and
put that, that Palestinian there
and said, "Listen, he's from Gaza.
He had so many relatives killed, and
he's saying that the student radicalism
is the problem." The student… That the
Ezra Lipp: I, I, Alkhatib?
Hamze Awawde: Well,
you can name many
Ezra Lipp: Yeah.
Hamze Awawde: you can name many people.
but you see how this fits in
the AIPAC general narrative.
Ezra Lipp: just to show how directly you
speak about this, you wrote, "This is
not a peace process, this is a sedation
process." I will say that ultimately,
I don't think individual intentions
matter as much as, effects of a system.
So I don't think how you answer this, I
don't think it's ultimately, makes the
system and the structure more redeemable.
But I am just curious, do you think
there was, any sort of individuals
or a group or a majority even of
individuals that you were working
with, directly or people putting on
these events that actually believed
that this was a step towards peace?
Or do you all think they knew it was
a show to ultimately defer justice?
Hamze Awawde: Yeah.
So, uh, as, as as I was, I was, uh,
progressing in the field And part of
what, I learned in the field and also
learned in my life, that, you know, you
talk about things and you try to make your
case, that there is, misunderstandings
and cultural defenses and stuff.
I had this conversation about what
we are doing and how this is helpful
to the cause versus how this is being
misused for, sedation to us, but also
for, uh, distraction to the diplomatic
community, to the Jewish communities,
to all people who care about this.
I had this conversation with every single
Palestinian and Israeli in the field.
No one felt this was strange
or was, out of, of logic.
they, they agreed.
They shared, frustrations about, how this
is all, useless, but, frustration also
about how the, it is controlled by the
money, controlled by, the establishment,
and the people who have a say, who get to
be, invited to things and who gets money.
everyone had this frustration,
but no one wanted to sacrifice,
their, um, you know, the, the
sweets of, of what this job brings.
so at some point I was, uh… No,
like, I have to go straight to the
establishment because I got independently,
you can say, a space to speak, uh,
independently from the industry after
October 7th, to speak in front of
governments, to speak in front of
students, to speak to Jewish communities.
Literally, really directly
between me and these institutions.
and, I, I have less to lose, but also
I've proven that, that I have, legitimacy,
that I have audience, that I'm not crazy.
so I went and I spoke
with the establishment.
I called, uh, the CEO of, OMEP I spoke
to, those individuals who used to mention
my name as if I was a p- of their groups,
but I was not part of their groups.
They used my name to gain
legitimacy when the audience
was a little bit pro-Palestine.
they used my name without my
consent and start speaking.
So I said, if they use even my
name, then I get to speak." So I
called them and I said, "Well, we
can't, we can't, keep, this going.
We can't." there is a, serious threat,
for ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.
There is a major, s-state,
state-sponsored terrorism against
Palestinians, against my people.
what's happening in Gaza, what's
happening inside Israel, there's
extreme, high level of unprecedented,
danger to everyone living there.
And we can't, write on, on our social
media as the, this organization does
that, uh, "Oh, today this woman and this,
this Israeli woman and this Palestinian
woman met, and they are, you know,
dealing with their pain together, and
we are unhappy about the escalation."
That we have to, we have to offer
more than that if we want to really
be, peace, peace people, you know?
then they told me, write us a paper about
it, and in June, when the board meets,
we can discuss it." And I said, "Okay,
you know, I don't want you to sponsor
my, my vision about what's happening.
Why, when, the British government, invited
a list of people to speak about the
situation, you lobbied to remove my name?
So you are not ignoring me, you're
actively canceling my voice."
They said because I c- I don't get
to speak, about Palestine, that,
uh, there are other Palestinians.
So this is the field.
You have a foreign group of people,
extremely related to Israel and,
the Israeli PR and the Israeli
narrative, choosing who to speak
and not so, so it's, it was
escalation because I am that person.
Like I gave them all the excuses
I can give in life and, I also
at some point, when Gaza was, you
know, people dying five hundred,
six hundred, I saw it as distraction
for my voice to come after them.
So I even, stayed silent when
I sometimes hear that they
used my photo, my name, my…
in, in certain circles because I was
busy nine- like, ninety-nine percent
of my time on working on ceasefire and
talking about ceasefire and lobbying
for, people, in power for ceasefire.
but at some point, like I couldn't
find any ex- any more excuse.
I had to see it as it is.
And, when I, confronted them, I really,
was spoken to, in a way, like, "Oh, we
use-- We, we love you Hamze, but what
you are saying hurt us. you are de-
destroying the, uh, the unity of, of the
peace camp." I was like, "Where is the
peace camp? Where is the peace camp that
I'm de-" It's a bunch of performers.
You can count them in your hands and
some, heavy, uh, media support from
professional, PR, offices and companies
that have nothing to do with…
Like they get also a lot of money who just
work to shape the, the narrative and the,
a- and the talks about this, situation.
And you're now, like instead of,
addressing what I'm saying, you
just, tell me how hurt you are.
the moment I came out, I found that
they have done this with every authentic
Palestinian that was in any of this
organization, that they already have
been over, like since October 7,
removed in a very violent way, in a
very dehumanizing way, with being yelled
at, with being threatened, and removed
and I was actually the lucky one, or
maybe the most privileged one, that
I had the tools and the connections
that I kept going beyond their reach.
So- There's nothing peaceful, there's
nothing respectful, there's nothing…
There's no agency for Palestinians.
The Palestinian with agency is enemy.
Because I practice some agency, I
had everyone in that field from the
establishment coming against me.
Ezra Lipp: I know you've talked about
certain language that was off limit.
how literal is this?
Was there like a list of words that
you're like, "You can't say apartheid,
you can't say genocide," or was it
just kind of an unspoken agreement?
Or how was this communicated to you?
Hamze Awawde: no one comes to
you and tell you in your face.
Although, there would come someone
and tell me before, before my turn to
speak, "Hamze, you have to be strategic.
You have to be rational.
You have to be smart.
don't be angry.
don't turn off the audi-" Like,
so they would gaslight you about
it. And then I would tell them,
"Okay, I wanna be strategic.
Strategic for whom?
Smart, smart for whose benefit?" And,
somebody who's, like, older or somebody
who's, more friendly among them would
stay all the time with you to, put words
in your mouth or convince you, that
if you listen to them, you are smart.
but even when, this is in events,
but when meetings with diplomats
or with governments, they would
monopolize 80% of the time talking.
So and they would speak in your name also.
would speak also about the Palestinians.
They would speak about themselves.
They would speak about the problem.
They would say also what's the solution
Ezra Lipp: what was the
solution they would say?
Hamze Awawde: the solution is to
merely give money to the peace
organization, and that to keep
fighting for two-state solution.
and that there will be election, always
that there's gonna be election and, some
other coalition will come And also, they
run these polls, the peace industry.
They run also these polls where they
shape the questions in a way that will,
uh, make it vague if the answer was,
you know, for peace or against peace.
So they would go to the Israelis and
they say, "Would you accept, peace with
the Palestinians as part of, a regional,
integration project and economy like…"
And then the Israeli would say, "Yeah, I
would. Fine." But they would not tell the,
the Israeli that this is about two-state
solution with, East Jerusalem as capital
and with, unified Gaza and the West Bank.
They would not say all of that.
They would write… They will ask
the question in a way to get some
percentage, and they will also,
structure the poll that numbers will
add up eventually to 40% or 50%.
the very wrong methodology in research.
Very wrong methodology.
And then they will get the percentage
that shows that, oh, there's still per-
good percentage, crucial percentage among
Israelis, uh, for a two-state solution.
And they will give it as evidence
to, like a serious audience in like
foreign government or academia.
so at multiple level, at mul- it is not
just like… It's not straight because
that would be too ugly, but it's de facto.
But they wouldn't talk
about ceasefire in Gaza.
They wouldn't talk about the immediate
things, how to stop settler violence,
land grabbing, the killing in Gaza, the
starvation, the blockage of movements.
No, these things are not
part of the discussion.
The discussion is that we need
a process, a peace process.
we need, a lot of dialogue
and more of dialogue, we
never talk about these things.
We, they just come and the outcome of
the conference is already done that,
uh, they recommend two-state solution.
there's never a discussion about
the roots of what we are doing.
That's really decided like, I was telling
you about this c- this coalition, we
were invited because we wanna discuss the
situation and come up with the solutions.
we came there, we start talking freely,
and then we were told, "No, this is
the outcome," which is we need, we
need to respond to the reality by
affirming that the two-state solution
is the only solution, and that we need
to create media campaign to, to the
public about this and all of that.
but if you ask question, if you ask
what you ask me, then you are out.
Then everyone is angry at you.
Then you are excluded.
So, so no one dared to
ask these questions.
And there was this Palestinian
journalist, a new Palestinian
journalist who was there.
I don't wanna, s- speak his
name because it will hurt him.
And he was, submissive, because he
liked the trip, so he kept silent and
kept doing what, saying, So they would
choose who to speak, and they would
tell them what to speak on the venues.
They would tell them
literally what to speak.
So the guy went outside the line and said
"Which two-state solution you talk about?
Today, when I came to here,
I was traveling, I s- I was
stopped at five checkpoints.
The settlers are taking
every day more land.
The West Bank is cut like, cheese and…"
And, the, the management got angered
him, silenced him, and shamed him.
and, Was a clear message to everybody,
if you wanna stay involved, if you wanna
have, a job, if they are employed in
this, or if you wanna just come to this
trip, you don't come out, out of the line.
And, uh, there's usually people in the
background who decide everything, who make
all the arrangements and the deals and
the language and everything, and everybody
there on the chairs just for the show.
they can support, they can say, "Oh, you
are amazing, uh, director, this and X,
and I love what you did." That's welcomed
and that will be, you know, appreciated
and they will hug them and so on.
It's like a cult, it's like a religious
cult when if you show any discomfort,
at least you will be excluded.
At least
Ezra Lipp: Can you talk about the way
that grief is used in these events?
I've heard you in the way that you've
described the way, grief and loss is
kind of, indicative of shared pain.
but perhaps it's more in a way to
neutralize, the people on stage rather
than highlight the asymmetry of as,
as you wrote, and I'm paraphrasing,
there's a difference between, a child
killed by, an armed Israeli soldier and
somebody who lost, a family member in the
occupying army that is doing the violence.
So maybe can you talk how grief is
thought and spoken about in these events?
Hamze Awawde: So historically, there's
an organization that bring, uh,
bereaved family members from both sides.
And as an outsider what you would
understand when a mother of, of a man
from this side and a mother from that…
Like let's say Russia and Ukraine.
You bring a Russian woman and Ukrainian
woman, and you say, "Look, they deserve
also to have their children alive," and
they both now share the grief and pain.
And you would say, "Yes, I wish for
the Russian people and the Ukrainian
people to stop suffering, and I'm gonna
support that," and any of this narrative.
But our reality is different because
the Israeli mother has a state with the
biggest army in the Middle East and one
of the most sophisticated army in the
world, has the legitimacy to occupy five
Arab countries, refuses any international
resolution against policies, and wants
to do its mind and has, normalized
all kind of fascist plans and has a
media that dehumanizes the Palestinian
people, and has liberal institutions
around the world that legitimizes
them, and the Palestinian mother alone,
barehanded, facing all of this injustice.
Both mothers are victim
of the Israeli government.
it's not equal victimhood from both sides.
Both of them… But after October 7,
it went even more, radical, the game.
They started also, finding, Palestinians
who, lost people in, in, in the war or
in the past, or if from Gaza who have
been, mistreated by Hamas and take
them with an Israeli and say as part of
legitimizing their voice, look, students
at Columbia University, this guy believe
what you are doing at the campus, harms
the Palestinian people, and he has lost,
and she has lost, I don't know, a certain
number of people." and as a… If I would
put myself in the foo- in the shoes of,
of American student, who's not heavily,
invested on this, I would say, "Wow, this
is must be a mainstream Palestinian and
must be authentically, seeing it this way.
Maybe there's something wrong with me
seeing it differently." For example,
when I once worked for this organization
that was ru- running the coalition.
I worked at the beginning because they
sold it to me as an authentic attempt
To create a crisis group that will study
the reality and give recommendations.
I wanted that.
I wanted a group of experts, to
say, "Okay, we were doing it wrong.
Let's see how to… what's going on,
agree on something and send it to the
world." When I saw that this is just a
show, just before I, I exit, they told
me, "Can you find us a hostage family?"
and like they gave me the profiles of
Palestinians and M- doesn't matter
what they believe, doesn't matter what
they do because they're gonna choo-
u- use their names and, see maybe
they also can be trained to, to speak.
but even if not, they
can just use their name.
So I was told, it, it has to be a
hostage family, a bereaved, person.
they give me list of people,
the profiles they want.
because anyway, there's a group in
the back that decide everything, so
it doesn't matter who's in the room.
It doesn't matter, just, it's just a list
of names that they're gonna add to the
report that they're gonna… if they're
gonna attacked, that this is, engineered
and conscious, distraction to people.
Ezra Lipp: Why do you
think you stayed so long?
if you could see this, and it
sounds like kind of early on,
Hamze Awawde: Yeah
Ezra Lipp: what was the
value of doing that?
Hamze Awawde: Well, in a way, back
when I used to live in Palestine,
it was a way to protect myself.
because you cannot have political voice.
You cannot.
You cannot have political voice.
both Israel and the PA will
make sure that you are silent.
But, being officially, associated to that
gave me some s- some protection.
And I was
able, independently to
have my own voice heard.
So I was able to meet alone with most
of the diplomatic community in Jerusalem
and brief them the Palestinian voice.
When I traveled around the world, I
reached out to people who their opinion
matter, and I spoke with them under
the umbrella of I'm peace activist
because I, as the way I understand,
maybe I don't have full license from
the industry, but I'm a peace activist.
And yes, and, I was, as a person
also not confronta- confrontational.
Um, I would say everything I told
you to them in the peace industry,
and they would laugh or they would,
talk to me, they would discuss,
they would sometimes confuse me.
Th- A lot of time they will agree with me.
But, but it was part of everything
wrong and I was like, "Okay, if I get
to speak, if I get to use them to say,
to reach out to audiences, to be safe,
then nothing perfect in this life.
I'm living under the occupation.
it's a g- good deal.
It's part… It's better deal
than any alternative," let's say.
I also liked that I was able to
directly speak to young Palestinians
about, important stuff in their life.
So it was-- I was more doing leadership
training and, help them in their
education and their, personal capacity.
So I was happy that I was
doing that good thing.
It was not, it was not part of my job.
For example, I was, officially like
director in this org- in one organization.
I w- I could do nothing, I could just
come to the meetings and stuff and
my job will be paid and everything.
But I insisted to know if this
is-- if my work is to invest on
the young Palestinians, then I'm
gonna do it because I'm paid for it.
So then I would do it, and they wouldn't
care, and, before October 7th, they
weren't that, aggressive in engineering.
they had a bit of margin of
tolerance to voices like me.
they wouldn't invest in me
directly, most of the organizations.
I had some allies, to be honest.
people who were powerful I would
say in politics, and, they kind
of trusted me, so they would keep,
bringing my name and forcing me on
meetings and forcing me on events.
I wasn't looking how much they are taking
advantage of my name and honest work in
certain circles or in, in money raising.
I wasn't aware of these
parts that was going on.
I thought that, okay, it's just this--
anyway, this is uneffective industry
no one cares about, But after October
7th, it was a tool, important tool,
in the media And the voices from this
were, they were extremely featured on
international media and on, on events
on, on campuses and on governments.
It became a tool to protect, Israel image
and to not let people realize in the world
that there's no solution from Israel and
that there should be external intervention
to protect lives and stability.
There it was clear the game.
Like before it was my gut feeling
and my connecting the dots.
After October 7th, it was in our face.
it was, it was clear.
They would be asked, "How would you
say you describe the situation in Gaza?
How would you, how w- you should
speak like this guy." Like I was
told, several times, "Look, this
Palestinian, he never say genocide.
He never say apartheid.
he criticizes Hamas
before he say anything."
You like, like the Palestinians are
allowed to speak, they have to say every
two minutes that they're against Hamas.
They h- they have to remind every
two minutes, a- and I will be ashamed
like told, "But w- why you are not
like them? why you…" Just to make
me feel that I am the wrong one.
I am the radical one.
I, like they are the
baseline and I'm the outlier
Ezra Lipp: So was there a f--
'cause you're very outspoken now.
Uh, I, I imagine you're, you're
still not getting asked to,
to be part of those events.
Like, was there a defining
incident that made you cut away,
or did they reject you first?
Or what led to the, separation there?
Hamze Awawde: So the
seperation happened gradually.
in the past two years, I was mainly 90% of
the time working alone and independently.
If I go to university, it was because a
professor there invited me and I come.
And m- most of the time I was speaking
alone without an Israeli counterpart.
But I also, as a civilized person,
I started this conversation with the
establishment, with, for example, ALMEP,
Alliance for Middle East Peace, with the
bigger, director of these organizations.
I started this conversation and I was,
you know, "We will talk to you, Hamzy.
We love…" Like, all these, answers
that just, no answers, but they don't
want to close the, the, the topic.
And then came, the war, the
American-Israeli attack on Iran
And I haven't seen a single
one of them against the war.
Ezra Lipp: Ah.
Hamze Awawde: I looked, for a week to
all the social media of everyone who
present themselves as Mama Teresa.
I didn't find a sing- as Mama Teresa.
Ezra Lipp: Mo- Mother Teresa.
Hamze Awawde: Yeah.
I didn't see a single one saying, "I
am against this war," or, "This war
is crazy," Forget about geopolitics.
It is a war that was told in our face
that is, against, a civilization, against
a country, against a culture, that
they're going to liberate, the women
of Iran, that all of this horrible,
leaders who didn't sh- have any shame.
We have the American ambassador a day or
two before the war saying that he support
Greater Israel vision and all of that.
and so I even saw many supporting the war.
I saw many who have written, posts,
used their personal story, family
story, if they have Iranian Jewish
heritage or if they, or they, if
they are, you know, feminist or
something, to kind of justify the war.
From the peace industry, 20
years in the peace industry.
They're 30 years in the peace industry.
People who lecture people about peace.
And then I wrote that
this war is a disaster.
It's a social, economic, political, moral,
civilizational disaster to the region,
to everyone, but also to my family.
why my family, who don't have
Iron Dome, have to be in the
crossroad of the missiles, and
why us are not talking about it?
And then I had a lot of, especially
Israelis from this field attacking
me for saying that I'm against the
war That was for me the closure.
That was for me, okay,
this is who they are.
This is who really they are.
I have just to see it.
This is who they are.
They don't care about peace.
They're just opportunists.
They see money in this, in this
field, and the money-- they don't
care where the money comes from and
don't know what's the agenda of this
money, and they're gonna perform.
Whoever comes, they're gonna perform.
whoever pays them, gonna perform.
I am maybe a few others are the naive
ones who, because of how desperate
reality is, they keep selling themselves
excuses why they should continue.
that maybe the most revolutionary act
to do, the most peaceful act to do
is to share my story in this field.
And I told it to ALMEP.
I told them, "All I have to do… I'm
not a prophet. I'm just gonna share my
point of view from that field." And you
are free to s- to share your part of it.
Like, they also have CEOs and PR
professionals and media They can respond.
They can say, "No, our theory is this,
and we're doing this, and Hamza is wrong."
Ezra Lipp: just so it's not purely
rhetorical 'cause we're talking about
the peace industry, what kind of
money are we actually talking about?
I think you had quoted some ridiculous
figure that Congress gave to this
industry, at least under previous
administration, I'm guessing the Biden.
But can you talk about some
of the actual funding and
what kind of numbers we're talking about?
Hamze Awawde: so the, the field they
started, 1996, like two years after Oslo.
it had, hundreds of millions
of dollars over the years.
a lot of it, at least I would say 70%,
at least 70%, if not more, went to
the Israeli side it is for binational
organizations, but there's a prime
organization which is Israeli one.
So they get to decide also who is
the political
partner
Ezra Lipp: Who, wait, is
there's, there's a one Prime
Hamze Awawde: No, no,
no, no no no multiple.
But let's say, we… I'm the Israeli guy.
I get the money, then I choose
who's my partner So I get even
a guy who has nothing to do and
he doesn't care, or I will get
somebody that I like, I enjoy with.
But anyway, 70% of the money
goes to the Israeli side, if not
more, like usually even more.
So you can see how much
power the Israeli side has.
they get to decide the curriculum,
the content, the whole thing, and
the Palestinian come to implement.
And if the Palestinian is not happy,
they will replace, immediately.
"Okay, E you are not happy?
Okay, bye.
I take your brother."
You know?
So they, they tell them every
day, "You are replaceable. You are
replaceable." so even from economic,
uh, developments, the Israeli side
is the beneficiary economically.
forget about the politics of it.
and it's like the same
mentality of occupation.
The Israeli side decide what is right
to be done and said, and who, who is
legitimate to work with them on it
Ezra Lipp: it sounds like a very
unhealthy, to put it lightly, like
power dynamic with the people you
were working with, very closely.
in one of these interviews I listened
to, you talked about going to a music
festival with your son and the son
of one of your partners in dialogue,
this Israeli person and his, child.
I just have to wonder, like, was
any of that friendship and that
companionship authentic, with
such unhealthy power dynamics?
Hamze Awawde: I don't think so
I thought back then it was authentic.
Ezra Lipp: Yeah.
Hamze Awawde: and then I found, how,
how these people, misused, my honesty
for basically money, most of them.
I don't think they care even about
Israel, to be honest, you know?
But for money, some I told, for example,
"Please, if we're gonna work together,
don't mention anything about me to
certain entities and certain individuals
because I don't trust them for my safety.
You know, I'm a Palestinian
at the end of the day.
I'm more vulnerable.
I'm less protected than anybody of you."
So please, I would tell them, "Please
don't talk, for example, to Ezra.
I know I'm suspicious about Ezra,
uh, relationship to Israel, to the
army, to…" And then I find out that
immediately they went to Ezra because
they thought is a, is a good money source
and told Ezra we work with Hamzy and we
would like you to support us and so on.
Ezra Lipp: So just kind of like directly
going behind your back and taking
Hamze Awawde: Yes.
And even worse, for example,
if they would go to London, and
there's a lot of, pro-Palestine, uh,
sentiment among artists and among,
like the liberal elite in London.
They would say, "And, uh, as our brother
Hamze say, hope is action." So they would
use me to legitimize themselves in front
of pro-Palestine, audiences, get money
in my name, and I have proofs of that.
I caught them in London, like, a
Palestinian Israeli famous, I don't wanna
mention names, famous now, like the stars.
I caught them having my photo
on a projector on the wall
and raising money on my work.
And they have ATM card, like
to charge people, like in the
Ezra Lipp: Jesus.
Yeah
Hamze Awawde: I have seen this with my
eyes and all of this happened, in the
past… So I was still processing, and
I am really rarely busy with my, with
myself and more busy with the public
and with Gaza, with the situation.
and at some point I couldn't see
light in that world at, at all.
I was like, "I'm actually
guilty by staying silent.
I'm actually guilty by not, putting an
end to this." Because as long as I'm
just talking to them privately, they
have no incentive to stop doing what
they're doing. they don't even want to
stop using my name. I told them many
times, "Don't use my name for money.
I don't have money, I'm a broke,
and I don't ask for money.
And I also don't want for your evil
anti-Palestinian work to raise, to use
me for that money." and they wouldn't.
and I spoke to every friends we have
with, to, to all the people adjacent
to them, to partners, to name it.
I tried every civilized
way to speak to them.
any discreet way, just
in case that I'm wrong.
I was like, "In case I'm misunderstanding
something, in case I wanna go to
the end." And they wouldn't stop.
So I was like, "Okay, so the… maybe
I… this is a message. Maybe I'm too
busy, talking about changing the structure
of this problem," which I don't think
anymore the people need to know what's
the root causes of this conflict and
what, w- what should Palestinians deserve.
But maybe, I have more, stronger voice and
stronger case to make to stop the harm of
this unhealthy group of people and their
dependency on bad money to give a message
in times like this, in times like this.
Like, what is escalation?
What is going in the West
Bank is not escalation.
It's a organized project that every
Israeli, coalition member spoke about,
and they threatened before doing it.
They're, starving people, cutting their
life, killing them, taking their land.
what's escalation?
What's… their bigger concern,
the peace industry now, is stopping
the polarization of America.
It's like, why a Palestinian
has to… from Gaza has to worry
about the polarization of America?
Let America be polarized.
They wish to have pro- their problems.
I gonna talk about Gaza.
I'm gonna talk about my family
living in the tent for three years
Ezra Lipp: How do you relate to the
legacy of your grandfather, particularly
now that you've had this journey where
you've been involved in the peace
industry and then subsequently completely
disillusioned with that industry?
you said earlier your grandfather was
a, a freedom fighter, was somebody who
used violence as a form of resistance.
what do you think of that legacy?
Hamze Awawde: it's clearly for me,
my grandfather did what he did, so
I don't have to, I don't have to
experience what we're experiencing now.
I believe the thinking he had, if his
generation doesn't stand up and fight
with whatever they can to stop this
project that wants to empty the land from
its people, from the, its Palestinians,
if he doesn't do it, then it will be
an, a bigger problem for my generation
and for his children generation.
So actually, the word that was
used back then to describe, freedom
fighters was the sacrificers.
You sacrifice yourself so your family
live, all my childhood, I was extremely
sad that I don't have a grandfather
he was killed before I was born.
But when I see other children,
enjoying their time with their
grandfather and they don't.
when I hear the stories about how,
my grandmother and my father and my
uncles were taken outside their house
and their house demolished in front
of their eyes, and then they build
a new house, and they demolish it
a- again in front of their eyes, and
then they move to live in a cave.
Poor people, very poor people, really.
And they don't have money.
God knows how they rebuilt the house.
And then they move, to a cave, and then
they come and they blow up the cave
and I hear these stories, I was, and
I'm still very sad, very, very sad
about human cruelty and what my family
endured, just for being in that time,
in that place, without the power
that, would be able to protect them.
So I think my, my grandfather
was, a noble person who was so
selfless to die so others can live.
So there would be hope
Because back when my grandfather
was fighting, the world didn't know
much about Palestine, or didn't know
more than a humanitarian case where
people need, rice and sugar and stuff.
he and his generation established
with their blood that this is a, a
cause of people, a national cause, a
cause of history and civilization and
land, so power, physical power doesn't
have the last say on our destiny.
He believed in that, and, he fought for
that, and I wish he was the last victim
and genuinely my, my father and my
uncles and me wanted so badly that he
will be the last victim in the family.
But still, every other day, a
family member from our extended
family is killed or arrested.
our lands is being taken until
today, are being, uh, confiscated.
And a settlement, a new settlement was
just, established in front of my family
house in Dura So the tragedy, the tragedy
that we still have to make peace with
death from childhood, basically, because
literally every Palestinian life is
a threat to that project, and whether
you are involved or not involved, you
are dead on, on waiting list, you know?
when we witness how the killing was in
Gaza and the killing that's happening
in the West Bank, you know that no
matter what position you have, no
matter how com- compliant you are, that
doesn't protect you from being killed
Ezra Lipp: Do you have any, I'll frame
it like this, which is, you've had
a career in helping manufacture hope
And I'm assuming you would agree that,
I don't think it's enough to manufacture
hope, nor is hope good in itself, because
if anything, it could just defer justice
With that acknowledgment, do you
have hope to actual- actually
have, peace and justice and a
free Palestine in the future?
And what would a just-- is a just
solution even, possible, and what
would be the closest thing that you
could even imagine or would want?
Hamze Awawde: Like to be very honest, I
changed my mindset, over the past, months.
I don't think we humans
are entitled to hope.
We are supposed to behave morally and with
our best abilities and keep fighting the
demons inside us and to keep demolishing
the idols that we worship and the dogmas
and all the unfairness, inherited in us
towards our world and causes like this.
But, eventually what will happen
is, uh, is a mysterious, thing.
Neither Israel will get what it wants.
like I know for sure like
Israel has a clear vision, has a
clear project.
I know for sure that project will fail
because it's inconsistent with the laws
of nature, inconsistent with all the logic
to build a Jewish, how, how they call it?
Jewish democratic Western entity on top
of the Palestinian bones and like kind of
give Palestinians the same experience of
indigenous Americans and Australians and
whatever, that will not happen because
already the Palestinians over the past
100 year, despite everything, are still
on their land, are still bigger believer
and bigger influential on reality.
Palestinians are a small nation, and
they have achieved without… they
didn't have the resources of the
Zionist movement and the backing of the
Zionist movement, and they have already
achieved something, that we cannot
deny no matter how, chaotic it is.
so I know for sure israel will
not Sooner or later, they will
have to face the day of, uh,
checking their accounts and find…
Like a lot of Israelis are leaving.
a lot who are leaving are people
who have some level of a critical,
mindset, and they just selfishly
calculate the balances of what they
gain by being in Israel and what they
can potentially lose, and they leave.
I believe more people will do that over
the years, and I don't think there's
the forces inside Israel who will,
achieve any, any better than Netanyahu.
I don't believe that
I, what I hope on the short term that,
powerful countries in the world out
of their national self-interest would
impose some arrangement for stability.
Will not bring justice, will not bring…
I don't expect from this world justice.
I don't expect it yet.
But at least to stop the killing
of my people, to allow food to
come, to allow them to freedom
of movement and, basic humanity.
on the long run, I think it's, it's
exciting, uh, what will happen.
I don't think it will be anything we can
imagine because we always, try to imagine
the future based on our past experiences.
But the future will not be
like anything in the past.
And I really pray that it will be a
humane future, exciting future that,
it, which will teach us the new truths.
It will be a merciful one.
It will be a just one.
I don't wanna imagine anything from the
past, but that's, for me, gonna happen.
That whatever Israel is doing and the
way it got, more explicit and more ugly
about it just shows how much Israel is
in a crisis, in, in a existential crisis,
that it is going that way, when it…
Just killing for the sake of killing.
Just destruction for the sake of… Like,
there's no strategic gains from this.
it's just a chaotic out of mind, uh,
just for animalistic, uh, animistic
disbelief in logic and just go
and kill people and… This is not
going to do any good to Israel.
But I honestly don't know if it's…
I would accept one state solution.
I would accept any solution That gives,
uh, justice to Palestinians as they
want and, I don't wanna define what
justice means like this, but it should
be the principle, the guiding principle.
because we have practices
of justice in our society.
it's a society that, we never had the
modern, uh, justice system and so on.
People used to go to elderly in their
society, and they solve problems based
on very pragmatic ways and very… But
they try to be just, they try to close
the wound, they try to make sure that
this atrocity will not happen again.
The… So we have the culture
of compromise, but the world
never came through justice.
They came through finding better ways
to control us, but under the slogan
of peace or under the slogan of peace
process, or under like just keep Israel
comfortable the world never came to
Palestinians with, always came to
control the Palestinians, to
neutralize them, to silence them.
And the, that, led to October 7th.
That mentality led to October 7th
and if it conti- if they continue,
and we see them continuing even in,
in more, I would say, you know, like
shameless way, continuing to disregard
Palestinians and their existence and
their rights, I don't see the future
with any hope, the near future.
I don't know, like no
one expected October 7th
And I don't want to say that the next,
uh, tragedy will be unexpected too.
But we see if there is wood, dry
wood, and gasoline and fire, I
would expect, I don't know at what
minute, the wood to catch fire.
And I, and we can't know
where the fire will reach
Ezra Lipp: I would argue that
it's on fire now, with what's
Hamze Awawde: and it's gonna get worse.
It's gonna get worse in the deeper levels
and, and more complic- complex ways.
Uh, but eventually, I don't know
h- the far future, eventually there
will be something, transformational
to the whole world from there.
Because for me, there's two forces,
two logics that fights there, the
logic of justice and logic of power
And if religions, if philosophy,
if history teaches something, you
know, there was a Roman Empire
that controlled most of the world.
Today it's museum
Today is a museum.
And religion talks about multiple
examples of people who even were powerful
enough to claim God power, Because they
were really much smarter than Israel.
Like Pharaoh when claimed to be God,
it's because he reached so much power.
And where is he?
He left.
And that's what my
grandmother used to tell me.
Israel is not the most, powerful
thing happened in this land.
And where are they?
The Crusades were here, there.
Where are they now?
I, I, I really genuinely hope
that the outcome of this is that
we reach, whatever it is, wisdom,
that humanity learn the lesson.
They learn a new lesson that will make
such actions and such, failures and
such complicity and such immorality
of the whole world, the entire world,
watching Gaza being slaughtered in front
of their eyes and doing nothing about
it, that this will never happen again.
I w- I hope that this is the h- the
end of this, that people will, uh,
will have a closure with how they were
overpowered and how they were treated
like sub-animals even, like dust.
th- that this will never happen again
because something happened to humanity,
something… I never thought about,
you know, we have to revenge and do to
Israelis and Zionists what they done to
us, because I don't wanna become a monster
Just because a monster
is trying to destroy me.
I hope a third thing happen where
I am safe and I am dignified.
And I honestly don't care what happens
to those who were oppressing me.
I wouldn't need them to suffer.
I, I personally don't have this need.
I just wanna live and my people to live.
Like, but, but this is something that
doesn't exist, so I can't even describe it
It is not something that I can
say a model that we can import.
And I wish the peace industry
to be invested with their minds
and resources in figuring out
some wisdom, some models, some things
that actually dignifies everybody or,
maybe they will fail, but at least
it was a better use of the money, a
better use of their time than help
maintaining the status quo and maintaining
the narrative of the status quo
Ezra Lipp: What do you think, the best
and most effective things people in the
West in particular should be doing to help
support the Palestinian people and this
cause of bringing justice to Palestine?
Hamze Awawde: I think, uh, what they
should start with is deconstructing how
their institutions and their leadership
and their resources against their will
went to do, to oppress and kill and
siege and destroy the Palestinian people.
They have to examine how this is possible.
How come they don't have free media?
How come they had to learn through
social media what's going on?
And the media where their tax money and
their subscription go didn't tell them.
They have to examine why.
Because if they lie on them
about Palestine, what else
are they lying on them about?
Are they safe?
So I want them to be egoistic
and selfish and start from there.
Start how the people who should be
working for their interest worked against
their interest to please Netanyahu and
please the Israeli failed leadership.
let's forget about even
the roots of this conflict.
A leadership that b- brought October 7th,
the world came and rescue, rescued it.
They rescued even their power
position in the, their society.
They intervened in Israeli internal,
internal politics to keep them
in power, like Blinken and Biden,
who came and hugged Netanyahu.
Americans should ask them why… But this
is against Americans, against American
interest, and now they're going to a war
for Netanyahu against Iran and destroying
the region and raising the prices
and des- destroying American wealth.
they should start from there and start
to say, "Okay, if, if BBC, if CNN, if,
of all, if New York Times are not telling
us the truth, we should boycott them.
We should not give them money and look
for alternative." But if they really
wanna go even further and they see the
shared humanity, and they see that this
is also their cause, support Palestinians
to keep, keep them alive basically.
Like Palestinian resilience shouldn't
be taken for granted We are humans and
we need, we are under economic, social,
political, all, name it, all kind of
wars and all kind of attempts to empty
the land from its people and all kind of
migration and workers are not working.
The teachers are not
taking salaries since 2019.
there are real people there who
like if you, if people outside can
connect to one person, one family,
and you know, sometimes just listen
to them, just sh- they have a lot of
wisdom because they are in the fire.
They have advanced their conscious
beyond what a Westerner would need.
So they can learn from their wisdom.
They can show them that they are seen.
everyone in their field should see how
their field can be on the justice side.
If they are academics, if they
are in governments, whatever,
everyone, know their best abilities.
it's okay to risk a little bit
because people don't wanna, they
want like solidarity free of charge.
C- 100% free of charge.
They wanna even get
bonuses of, out of… No.
You, they are lucky that you only
have to lose, these, uh, ridiculous
things and get your aunt angry at
Ezra Lipp: Yeah.
Hamze Awawde: you.
Seriously, I know people who are
extremely well-educated about this,
extremely in positions where their
voice matters, but they don't wanna
upset their aunts and they don't wanna
Ezra Lipp: Yeah.
I was in a place at one point like that,
and then ultimately the more I understood
and learned, I was like, I-- no, whatever
Hamze Awawde: Hey, good for
Ezra Lipp: this is.
Yeah.
Yeah
Hamze Awawde: Good for you
because it's rewarding, man.
you enlarge your conscious, you enlarge,
uh, your meaning in life, your purpose.
And you know something I, what, this
tragedy made me understand that no
matter how we have to connect with
each other, ultimately we're alone.
Like when you said, uh, you're
not sure you are part of the
Jewish community anymore.
The truth is there's no community.
It's just, it's a community
not for the community.
It's a community for the
establishment and bigger agenda and
many group communities like this.
It's not built for the interest
of each individual, uh, in
a democratic, uh, free way.
So we are alone eventually.
We better to, we better belong to, uh,
hopefully new formed identities also
in this very quickly changing world.
now even nation state is weakening,
so I don't see why we have to continue
looking to fit in old identities.
Maybe it will be formed
naturally and organically,
Ezra Lipp: I'll, I'll just say I, I
feel a, a deep sense of solidarity,
even with people I haven't met in
real life yet, just that, are working,
in support of Palestine and can see
what's happening and choose to not
look away and choose to speak out
and choose to access their humanity.
that's who I feel most connected
with these days, rather than any
Hamze Awawde: Yeah, and follow your heart
Ezra Lipp: priorly been
Hamze Awawde: And I'm sure, I'm sure it
will be rewarding, in a meaningful way.
the same I, by having independent voice, I
couldn't fit inside any of the established
groups in this conflict, So very often
it's lonely But I have meaning like
I'm learning at least.
I'm, I'm going through stages because
I am actually following, independently
the truth, and the truth is like
you keep lo- looking for this light.
because if I wanna fit, I wanna just be
a number, and I wanna stop thinking and
would just be a puppet for whatever.
that's not a life I wanna be
remembering when I am about to die
Ezra Lipp: Well, you've
got a friend in me, Hamza.
Hamze Awawde: Thank you, Amin
Ezra Lipp: Thank you for coming
on and sharing your stories and
all your wisdom and, perspective.
Really appreciate it.
Hamze Awawde: Thank you, Ezra
All right, and there you have it.
I hope you learned a
lot from this episode.
Share it with someone who you
think might need to hear it.
thank you, Hamza, for coming on the show.
It was such a pleasure to speak with you.
again, check out Hamze's
writing on his Substack.
Support him there.
please support The Thin Veil if you can.
Leave a rating and review wherever
you are listening to this, on
YouTube, on all the podcast platforms.
Support the show through Patreon or Ko-fi.
and remember, as President
Dwight D. Eisenhower said in his
farewell address in 1961, "Beware
the industrial peace complex."
I, I think it was s-
something like that at least.
Anyway, this is Ezra Lipp signing off.
I wish you a very free Palestine.
Thank you for being here