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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Speaker: Good morning, Tom.
Good morning, Paul.
We were just discussing what we're going
to talk about to start the podcast.
And I've decided that I'm going to
start by making fun of your Zoom
background, which is we have, we
have it's Paul is in the sky today.
It's just a blue, a slight blue
gradient, nothing else behind him.
He is
Speaker 2: pure apple.
This is pure Steve jobs
radiating his eminence.
Yes.
Speaker: His design
energy is at work here.
Uh, because you are a dragon or something.
Speaker 2: I should flap my wings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's hard on a podcast to know what
to, I guess, I guess, yeah, it's, it's
a dark blue to a light blue gradient.
And I think it comes
standard on all new Mac OS.
Background
Speaker: and they just like, they
opt into that, like, this is the
default background for people.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Okay.
So listen, it's either that
or it's the fact that I spent
1, 600 to buy myself a studio,
Speaker: a
Speaker 2: studio display,
Speaker: the display.
Yes.
Speaker 2: That's one of those two.
Maybe it's like you need to the
studio display as like a, I don't
know, uh, social status symbol.
Speaker: And then they give you
this blue background to add.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: So that you can show it off.
Otherwise, otherwise no one knows
that you spent so much on a display.
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
So I guess I
Speaker: should be saying congrats
on your back studio display.
Speaker 2: Have you downloaded
the new version of the, you
Speaker: know, I just did it last night.
So I haven't actually played with it.
I guess it doesn't look like it's
applied to me yet, but I haven't
played around with anything.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Listen, this is going to turn into an
it podcast in the top right corner.
Okay.
You will notice a little camera
icon with green background.
You see that?
Speaker: Uh, it's kind of in
the middle of the screen for me,
but yes, it's on the top bar.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Click it.
Click it and scroll down and you'll
see a button that says background.
Click that.
Speaker: Scroll down.
I don't see it.
Or like,
Speaker 2: not scroll down, but like when
you click it, there's like a whole little
Speaker: window pops up and
I see a video of myself and
something that says mic mode.
Speaker 2: Ah, okay.
Well, I think this is 1, 600
for a max studio display.
I think
Speaker: this is your fancy display.
Speaker 2: I, my.
Ah.
Speaker: Five year old MacBook laptop
here does not seem to have as many
options, but maybe maybe if I maybe if
I dig around Later, okay, maybe I don't
Speaker 2: think so.
I don't think I
Speaker: just don't
have access Okay, you're
Speaker 2: a plebe I think I'm living
in the sky and you're down on the ground
this is what Apple wanted This is what mr.
Mr.
Jobs had in mind.
Speaker: All right, this is his
vision So I'm gonna say I'm in my
apartment here in San Francisco.
Yeah.
Yeah, it will be flying around You
Speaker 2: I look like I'm constantly
giving a Ted talk, like at any
time, anything I say feels elevated.
Speaker: I was thinking about this.
I saw this background
yesterday of Paul's as well.
I was thinking about the choice.
You know, we have got a lot, for a lot of
people, they use like a work background
where there's like a cozy little
home behind them or a modern kitchen
behind them or something like that.
And it's an interesting question why we
chose that over solid color background.
Yeah, true.
Like what solid color background
does is put a lot of emphasis on,
Speaker 2: on the person looking
Speaker: at you.
Yes.
There's less to distract me from really
just taking Paul in with my eyes.
Right.
Right.
So yeah, I wonder if over the
coming years, what the fashions
will be, how, how they will change
in terms of our, our desires for
detailed versus simple backgrounds.
Speaker 2: That's a great point
Speaker: actually.
Speaker 2: Yeah, background, background
as a cultural sort of milestone or
cultural touch point is actually a
really good one because we're definitely
gonna have backgrounds, right?
We're definitely gonna have video calls.
Speaker: Yeah.
Maybe, I mean, we've, I feel like
backgrounds themselves also have come
in and out of fashion a little bit
where, you know, at the beginning of the
pandemic zoom era, it was very much about
arranging your actual living space to have
an attractive thing behind you, people
weren't really doing the backgrounds yet.
Maybe they, maybe we didn't
really have backgrounds that
worked well yet at that point.
Speaker 2: Wasn't that good?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
They've gotten better.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Maybe what
Speaker 2: it'll be is it'll be a,
it'll be someone else's living room.
Like the design will be like, it'll look
like you're actually in a really nice,
nicely arranged living room or like
workspace, but it'll just be a background.
An
Speaker: image of somebody, some
fancy person's background from 2020.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but, but you're right.
It is weird that I guess the
idea is for corporate life.
You want to be fun and light hearted
so that your coworkers like you.
And so you don't, you know, if you're
a plebe, you don't use the godlike
blue background like I do, because
you want to appear approachable.
Speaker: Right.
So is me not using a
background at all here?
Do you think that makes
me more approachable?
I
Speaker 2: feel it feels
so easy to approach.
Yes.
Speaker: You can, you can see my
whole apartment, including my bed.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I, um, I don't feel judged at all
Speaker: by
Speaker 2: you.
Not even a little bit.
Speaker: Okay.
Good.
That's what I was going
Speaker 2: to say about my,
Luscious blue background
Speaker: can hurt you.
Yeah.
Cause you're up in the sky.
Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's right.
That's right.
Speaker: That's right.
Cool.
Okay.
So last, last episode, we blathered
for 50 minutes or something
and did not even touch the book
and I, we resolved this time.
No, today we are going to do the thing
that the name of this podcast implies
that we're going to do, which is no more
Speaker 2: chit chat, Tom.
Speaker: So less chit chat.
But I do think we, we planted some
seeds as it were, we, some, we
tilled some fertile soil in terms
of giving us some new stuff to talk
about in relationship to the text.
We talked a lot about gladiator and
what we learned about Marcus Aurelius.
We talked about Spinoza and our,
uh, the, the YouTube lecture that we
watched on him and anything else you
remember us talking about, Paul, I
feel like those were the big ones.
Speaker 2: I remember us like drawing
a line between Marcus all the way
through modernity in a way that, you
know, I'm sure anyone who knows anything
about philosophical malpractice.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
We, we just, yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
It feels wrong, but I am also
kind of into it, you know?
Okay,
Speaker: cool.
Yes.
All right.
So we've got all this
new stuff that we're.
Equipped with as we venture back into
book seven whose end we are approaching
fast So let's let's make some headway
towards that I believe we are in book
seven entry number 55, which is sort
of a a lengthy one So here we go.
Don't pay attention to other people's
minds look straight ahead where nature is
leading you nature in general through the
things that happen to you and Your own
nature through your own actions Everything
has to do what it was made for and other
things were made for those with logos
in this in this respect as in others
lower things exist for the sake of higher
ones and higher things for one another.
Now, the main thing we were
made for is to work with others.
Secondly, to resist our bodies urges
because things driven by logos by
thought have the capacity for detachment.
Transcribed To resist impulses
and sensations, both of
which are merely corporeal.
Thought seeks to be their
master, not their subject.
And so it should be.
They were created for its use.
And the third thing is to
avoid rashness and credulity.
The mind that grasps this and
steers straight ahead should
be able to hold its own.
Speaker 2: A classic Marcus Liszt.
Speaker: Yes.
Okay.
Well, I was taken aback by its Liszt
structure because he just sort of starts
talking and then he says, secondly,
and it's like, oh, I guess this was a
Liszt, but it did turn into a Liszt.
Speaker 2: It's like, it's like, um,
every, um, Every curve is actually a line.
If you zoom, you know, zoom out far
enough or whatever, or zoom in far enough
Speaker: far enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
Every, every text is actually a list.
If you zoom in far enough with Marcus.
Speaker: Yes, exactly.
That's right.
It's, it's lists within lists.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Lists within lists,
lists all the way down.
Yeah.
Um, okay.
So he's just giving
instructions for how to live.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Standard.
Speaker: Yes.
The first one.
Yeah.
Anything stand out to you?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Let's see at a high level, it
feels very standard for Marcus.
Speaker: Yeah.
A couple little, so the first entry, like
two little phrasing things that I noticed.
Um, I, I don't know that I've heard
this distinction from him about like,
You know, he said to sort of go where
nature is leading you before that's,
that's pretty like standard for him.
But this concept of like breaking that
into pieces and saying nature leads
you into that's true in two ways.
One is through the things that happened
to you, which I think is how I generally
parse the go where nature leads you,
but also through your own actions,
your own actions are a part of nature.
Um, through,
Speaker 2: through your own act, right?
So, okay.
So look straight ahead.
So this is the answer, right?
Look straight ahead.
Where nature is leading you M
dash nature in general comma.
That's the first kind of nature
through things that happen to you.
The second kind of nature.
Speaker: No, sorry.
I, I think they're
separated by a semicolon.
I'm going to disagree with you
on a punctuation basis here.
So I think he's describing to nature in
general and the way nature in general
works is through the things that happened
to you and then semicolon your own nature.
Through your own actions.
Yes.
I think nice Tom.
Speaker 2: Okay.
So two things, there are two
kinds of nature, things that
happen to you and yourself.
Speaker: Yes.
That that's cool.
Your own nature through your own actions.
I just, I think that that second
one is the part that feels,
um, interesting to me because.
Sure.
Speaker 2: You have
Speaker: some control.
Speaker 2: That's those isn't for you.
I mean, that's the whole crux of that's
that that's where it becomes a religion.
It's like, I matter despite all this.
I matter somehow.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
I like that.
I think that's, that's true.
I think we were kind of talking about
that a little bit last week too, with
the Spinoza discussion, the way we
might worship, uh, our, you know, both
this philosophy and Spinoza's ethics
involved this notion of worshiping of.
What we are a little bit.
Yeah.
I think another thing that's
catching my eye about this particular
little sentence though, is that,
you know, obviously stoicism is, is
a philosophy that has a huge amount
of reverence for your actions.
And it's like the most important
thing is the stuff you can do.
But, um, to say that your own actions are
where nature is leading you kind of almost
implies that your own actions are, are
controlled by something outside of you
that, that they're just a part of nature.
Two.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's like circular.
Yeah.
So in order to decide what to
do, look at what you're doing.
Right,
Speaker: yeah, exactly.
And there's like, That seems at odds
with this concept of like, all you
should worry about is your, the thing
you have control over right now.
Um, I, I like it though.
I actually think there's a lot of deep
truth here that, that, uh, he maybe hasn't
touched on before, but I think part of
being an adult for me has been noticing
like, Oh, there's stuff that I do that
if I examine why I do it, I learn about
myself, but it would be easy to not.
Do that examination.
So you learn about yourself.
I agree with this bit about you learn
important things and decide how to act
based on examining your own actions.
Yeah.
I see what you're saying.
Speaker 2: That's deep.
I
Speaker: don't know if I've
ever heard Marcus say something
quite like that before.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
It's, it's both circular
and Probably correct.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: Well,
Speaker 2: it's like nature is leading
you, like you should do the things, but
look at what you're currently doing and
then decide what to do based on the things
that you're like, the way that you, okay.
So, so this, the example that I think I'm
guessing you have in mind or an example,
let me correct me if I'm off base here,
but something along the lines of, um,
you know, you noticing yourself, you have
this knee jerk reaction to some statement.
Right.
And you ask yourself, what should I do?
And it's like, well, I shouldn't just,
you know, just because the fact that
I had that reaction, there might be
some truth there or some value there
that I shouldn't totally discount.
I agree with, I think that's a really
cool idea, but I just don't think that's
Marcus's thing because of the next two.
Yes, where he says, ignore
everything that you feel
Speaker: that is.
Yeah, that is where I was
kind of headed as well.
And I liked that.
So there's that little nugget
there where I'm like, okay, cool.
That's interesting.
Like, I liked the, this idea of being
more, it's basically reflection,
which he hasn't really talked about
much in his philosophy up until now.
And then there on this first point,
there is this second paragraph about
everything has to do, what was made for.
And the other things were
made for those with logos.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: This, I think a modern reader
could have different reactions to this.
Cause there is a little bit of like the,
all the world is made for us humans.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
Speaker: But like, yeah.
And then when he says in this
respect, as in others, lower things
exist for the sake of higher ones
and higher things for one another.
I like the idea that it
just goes for one another.
Yeah.
It just goes with that saying that higher
things exist for one another is, is.
Yeah.
Cool.
Uh, but I agree.
Speaker 2: I agree.
Speaker: Lower things exist for the
sake of higher ones is a little,
Speaker 2: yeah, that one's tricky.
Let me put a bit in that though, because
I want to do story time with the previous
section, the look straight ahead where
nature is leading you nature in general
through the things that happen to you and
your own nature through your own actions.
This, this quote, uh, let
me do a little story time.
I think the audience may enjoy it.
Reminds of the, the
style of advice we got.
When we were very early, uh, David and
I, when we were founding Keeper, and we
went to our advisor, a very fancy man,
his name is She, he's like, uh, he's like,
uh, I don't know, like an OG tech person.
He works with Bill Gates directly
at Microsoft or whatever.
And, you know, and, and the way, so Y
Combinator is an incubator, uh, there's
like, you know, 400 startups that,
that like are just like us and are all
completely lost and have these huge
existential, like, what are we doing?
Like, you know, why, like,
are you sure we should, you
know, why did we quit our jobs?
Like why are we here?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Why are we here?
And, and, and we're constantly on like
the, the, the, the way it works is you
can just like go to one of these fancy
people and be like, Force them to sit down
with you for half an hour and then you
just like, can just like say whatever you
want and then they have to deal with it.
Right?
So we had one of these sessions where we
were just feeling like existential dread
and we're like, what, what do we do?
Like, why are we doing this?
I don't know if YC is for us.
Yeah.
And she, she, this man who like, It's
just like, well, you know, I don't know.
He was like a personal friend of
Paul Graham, the founder of YC.
I guess he's doing this as a favor.
I don't, I don't think, I don't know if
he was particularly enjoying the job.
Speaker: Is this fun for him?
Okay.
Speaker 2: I don't, I don't
know, especially not when you
get these like groveling, like,
you know, what am I doing?
You know,
Speaker: probably every YC
founder is probably kind of
like, well, that's the thing.
You must have
Speaker 2: like seven of these a day.
Right.
So, so then he sits us down and he's
like, listen, um, You know, every stream
leads to a river and every river leads
to a lake and you must go and follow the
stream down to the river, down to the
lake, and eventually you will find the
deep one, you know, something like that.
And you know, the funny thing
was David and I were like, Wow.
Thank you so much.
We were like, and at the, at the
time it was like, this is so helpful.
Like I hadn't thought of that.
How we're just, we're just
following a little river.
Right.
Eventually we'll get there and
we just have to have faith.
Like you don't really know, but, but
a stream has to, by definition has to.
So lead to a bigger body of water
or like combine with other streams.
I mean, that's technically not
true, but like most streams do,
you just need to have faith and I
remember this feels kind of similar.
It's like, I don't know what I
like, give me an actual example.
I don't know if this is actually
useful, but like, you know, in
abstract, it sounds very, you know, Very
friendly, you know, very insightful.
Thank you, Marcus.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
I, yeah, I, I know what you
mean about look straight ahead
where nature is leading you.
I guess, I think I interpret this.
I mean, we didn't really
even talk about it that much.
I feel like initially reacted to
this or I don't, because it feels to
me like the advice we give to like
children, kind of, it feels very,
like, it's kind of just like, Well,
and just like, yeah, don't worry so
much about what other people think.
Which is like, okay, yeah, good.
That one, that one feels very, um,
maybe that was a more interesting
thought at the time, but that one to me
doesn't feel as profound in the modern.
But I do.
Yes.
I remember you telling you and
David telling stories about
this fun character at YC.
I enjoyed that.
That's a fun job, but I hope
he enjoys it because it does.
I mean, it sounds like two
Speaker 2: weeks later.
Oh, really?
Okay.
I think he's had enough of
telling that same parable.
That's
Speaker: a power.
He was out of little fun, little parables.
Yes.
But I was going to say in theory,
that sounds like a fun job to have.
Found ups, there are startup founders,
um, come to you and then you just like
give them an animal parable or whatever
about like the tortoise and the hare.
And then they're like, thank you.
And they feel that they have.
You know, made it and they are getting
the YC experience because you told
them some silly story about animals.
Speaker 2: I think he probably ran out of.
He probably, he realized he would
have to leap through again, but can't,
Speaker: can't he reuse them?
It feels like he could reuse
them on the same, he has to give
different ones to different founders.
Speaker 2: Well, no, I think what
happened with me and David is we had
this, like the aura sort of wore off.
The further we, yes.
The more steps we took away from him, the
more we realized that this was not useful.
He was, yeah.
Speaker: He was just,
Speaker 2: and that we were actually
there asking if we should rename
or not, and we didn't really
get an answer to that question.
Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
And,
Speaker 2: and so it was like,
you know, the, the sort of, um.
You know, reality
distortion field weakened.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker 2: And so the next time we would
have come to him, if he gave us that same
Speaker: type of answer, I think
Speaker 2: we would be like, hold on.
Speaker: I say, yes.
Okay.
So his magic is best served by
just vanishing at that point.
Yeah.
And finding a new captive audience
of people to tell his, his wisdom to.
Well,
Speaker 2: you can't say there's nothing
to say to these found, like, cause the
answer is like, listen, I don't know.
You know?
And so.
Yeah.
Speaker: I guess it's
like, this is normal.
Figure it out basically.
Like there's nothing particularly
wrong with your startup.
I know you guys are anxious.
Yes.
You have to figure out
whether not to rename.
I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
But
Speaker: you guys are
normal startup founders.
So get after it.
You know,
Speaker 2: I actually do think that's
the correct thing to say, but I don't
think it's like as interesting that,
like, I think there is an element of you
just, you're just so bored having these
conversations for 12 hours a day that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You end up like wanting to
create theories or something.
Like.
Totally.
Yeah.
Why,
Speaker: why wouldn't you?
Yeah.
You'd probably want to be like, listen.
Also, you know, you're, you're
a, you work at YC or whatever.
You guys are interested in the
questions of what makes some
startups take and some don't.
Maybe they need to hear the well
parable at the beginning or whatever
the, the Lake parable at the beginning.
And if they do, their chances of
success are appreciably increased.
Speaker 2: It was a well pair of parables.
Yeah.
I think you guys said
Speaker: it was a, well, the
first time I heard this story, but
yeah, whatever, same, same idea.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um,
Speaker: yeah.
Okay, cool.
I like, I like that kind of guy.
Yes.
I mean, in some ways, isn't that
guy the closest thing we have
to a modern Marcus Aurelius?
That's right.
Like he's a sort of
philosopher king type guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
He's a philosopher.
Yeah.
He stays away from specifics.
Speaker: Right.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Age old trick.
Speaker: His job is to, yeah,
provide abstract wisdom and
then let you hash it out.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks for letting me derail that.
No, no, no.
Yes.
Speaker: I don't think that's
a, that's derailing it at all.
Um,
Speaker 2: we were talking about
the, like lower things exist
for the sake of higher ones.
I
Speaker: don't think I have
anything more to say about that
other than I just really like this.
The main thing we were made for
is to work with others is a very
kind of like humble, like, For the
emperor to think that way is cool.
Like that is that is that is a very like
humble perspective that Marcus has I read
that really really resonates with me Um
Speaker 2: as long as he's not
talking about as long as he's
grouping all humans into higher things
Speaker: I, yes, that's fair.
That, that is certainly
how I am parsing his, um.
Speaker 2: What about slaves?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, that's
a, that's a fair question.
I, I hope that's true.
I hope, I mean, his perspective on women
too is that they deserve this treatment.
I, yeah, that is a fair point.
I, I think we as modern readers can
interpret it that way and should just
generously interpret it that way.
But yes, it's a fair point
that he may not have had quite
that enlightened a perspective.
Speaker 2: I agree.
Speaker: Um.
Speaker 2: I think so.
Okay.
And then let's just touch on the lower
things exist for the sake of high amounts.
I, my knee jerk reaction, I think like
yours is, uh, that seems way too kind
of, you know, God made birds in order to
chirp for humans, ears kind of, uh, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I I I there's
a more generous reading.
I think where I also just interpret
He likes to just talk about how like
the little rivers feed into the big
river and like whatever Yes You need
all the little pieces to make up a big
piece of a truly inanimate Thing like
you have to have branches to make a
tree or whatever like that is a way
in which this is just objectively
true But that branches are lower order
than a tree and so they exist for the
purpose of the sake of the tree You
Speaker 2: Right, cause there
is, that's interesting, there is
There isn't technically judgment.
I mean, lower feels worse than higher,
but yes, it's not an explicit judgment.
Like,
Speaker: yes, I agree.
That's one way to
Speaker 2: put it.
Yeah.
Speaker: That I, so I, I
think I agree with you.
I think that some of our reaction to that
comes from a modern reading of the words
lower and higher there as being like,
Oh, you're, there's this implication that
lower means worse and higher means better.
And yes, I really kind of, it feels
kind of radical from, from our vantage
point now, but I, uh, One perspective on
this is to assign no judgment to lower
and higher and just say that he really
just sort of means something like bigger
and smaller or something like that.
But even that kind of, kind of has a,
even that yes, there's, I don't know if
we really have a good modern phrasing that
would truly divorce this of, of the value
judgment that we kind of attach to it.
Speaker 2: Um, yeah.
Existing for the sake of it is,
is like a little beyond I think.
What a modern.
Yeah.
A person would say.
Speaker: Yes,
Speaker 2: yeah, agreed.
Speaker: Yep.
So I think that's a little bit tough
to get to except I think in the form
of just like the very literal Pieces
of the building block, you know Like
blocks of the building exist for the
sake of the whole building inanimate
type thing But with any almost
anything alive I have a tough time
Speaker 2: I mean, that's, that's
true for like your spleen cells.
I don't know if that's true for a bird.
Speaker: Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
That's where, that's where I think
we as modern audiences would draw
the line is like, are the lower
things we talking about actually
organisms or are they just like stuff?
Speaker 2: And maybe in 20 years,
culture will be such that we'll even
think that a spleen cell doesn't really
exist for the sake of a higher being.
But anyway, that's
Speaker: fine.
That argument is harder to
make, I think, but yeah.
Or at least doesn't, doesn't
resonate as much for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
But then it's kind of like, he's
doing this nice entry and again,
it's not really a list yet.
And then it just seems like he gets
distracted is my feeling about this entry.
Cause he's saying this nice stuff
about how, you know, looking straight
ahead and why we exist and stuff.
And then he says, secondly,
to resist our body's urges.
And then he basically just talks
about the battle between, between
thought and our body's urges.
Um, and.
Thoughts should be the master is his
point, which is true, but it's, yeah,
there's something sort of comedic
to me about the way this is written.
It really feels like, I guess he got
horny or something in the middle of
writing this and was like, no, stop.
I have to think.
Um, that's very much how it reads.
Speaker 2: That's funny.
That's a funny interpretation
Speaker: to me.
Otherwise, why is this so urgent?
Why did this have to be the same?
And
Speaker 2: why did he
have to interrupt himself?
Yeah, exactly.
It really feels
Speaker: like he did.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Um, yeah, this whole concept, which by the
way, it feels the same as the third one
to some degree rashness and credulity, but
yeah, this whole concept feels dated to me
that logos above all, you know, logic and
Speaker: emotion are
fully separate concepts.
And that, that one, one
is better than the other.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
I really do think of Emotion as a
sort of, it's like, you know, how in
like computer science, you have like
a hash table that lets you look up
something quickly, like an emotion is
just a way to very quickly get, like,
without having to think very much, you
can get like a shortcut to the answer.
Speaker: That's interesting.
I like that analogy.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's worth
like not digging, not using the
shortcut, but a lot of the time you
don't have time to think about every
single thing you just, you, it's very
useful to have a hash table and just.
Right.
Access the thing that's
hashed and just go with that.
Speaker: Yes.
I'd say that's cool.
I like that analogy.
I think really the thing we were saying
earlier, there is also, I think a part
of life, which is about like figuring out
like, Do spending active thought examining
your hash table a little bit about like,
why did does this in lead to that exactly?
Maybe I should write a hash table.
Yeah, exactly.
Yes Yeah, I I dig that though.
Yes.
I also agree.
I think we today think a little bit
differently about emotions of Marcus
dead I agree with you that there there's
something I guess the one thing I would
add in my own experience is that I think
Emotions can also identify stuff where
if there's stuff in my life where I'm
kind of like maybe forcing something
in some way, or I'm like being a little
like I'm trying to convince myself
of something logically that isn't
quite true, but I want it to be true.
Emotions are the thing that tell me that
it's not true that I need examine that.
So it's, it's not, it's not just
an approximation of what you would
get with more detailed thinking.
It's also, there's, there's a force of
honesty that comes from the emotion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right.
The analogy there is almost like.
Like there's a reason that hash
table formed, like it formed
through a bunch of past experiences.
That's how that happens, right?
And that turns into a pattern of
coalesces to a pattern over time.
So you know, there's probably some
wisdom in those past experiences.
Exactly.
Maybe that's, yeah, I'm really trying to
stick with the computer science analogy.
Speaker: I like it.
I think you're right.
I think, yeah, we have to mix
it with some kind of, yeah,
unfortunately it's going to get really
tortured and we're really gonna.
Bore our listeners.
If we go too deep about this, but
yeah, we have to combine it with some
reinforcement learning or something,
I think, because it's, uh, yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah, exactly.
Speaker: But, but yes, it's, I, I, I
think it feels like with, with what
Marcus is saying here that there's, he
has a little bit more of a, uh, a simpler
relationship where he really feels
like the thoughts should be in charge
and the emotions should be in check.
And that's kind of the deal.
And, and we're saying there's a, there's
a more complex exchange between those.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
And sometimes it's very
easy to overthink and.
Right.
There's a kind of a
check and balance there.
That is interesting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yep.
I agree.
Okay.
And then he says that the third thing
is to avoid rashness and credulity.
Uh,
Speaker 2: moving on.
That's it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Those are both kind of weird words in it.
Like we don't use either one of
those words very much in English,
but to me, I guess that means like
being, getting suckered is kind of
what credulity is like being a fool.
Like somebody, somebody tells
you something amazing and
you're like, Oh my God, really?
Wow.
I'm going to, I'm going to
go do X, Y, Z because of this
crazy thing you just told me.
And it's not true.
And you, you didn't check the thing.
Sure.
So it's like Keep yourself in check.
Be like, don't, don't trust
other people too much.
Like instead trust your gut kind of
Speaker 2: sure.
Um, just feel so random.
Why did he, yes, exactly.
That's yes.
That's
Speaker: what I, well, the whole thing
is he's like interrupting himself.
It's a funny, it's, it's arguably
like, uh, yes, it feels more like
monologue than a lot of his entries do.
It doesn't feel as written.
Speaker 2: Um, yeah, it's almost like,
He's like, Oh, now that this has turned
into a list, let me just add like, yes,
here's another thing that's on my mind.
Yeah.
But then he, yeah, he only stops the
section because he's run out of things.
Speaker: Yes.
Yeah.
The rule is not about necessarily
the conciseness of the thought
or the completeness of it.
Yeah.
There is something I think
kind of fundamental, like
there's something I like about
that because I think In some ways,
he's a guy whose philosophy is
very simple, and it feels like we,
you know, it could be expressed.
It has been expressed in a relatively
small number of words that are
understandable to most people.
And yet he's still here.
He is in book seven, and
he's trying to explain it.
And he feels that he like, He
has to keep interrupting himself.
He still is not totally like, he
doesn't feel like he's got it nailed
the explanation of the thing that he's
doing, you know, at least that's a
Speaker 2: couple of words you would use.
Sorry to put you on the spot.
I'm just curious.
Speaker: Well, I think it's
the kind, I mean, yeah.
Okay.
It's not, not fair to control
Speaker 2: what you can control.
Yeah,
Speaker: exactly.
So if we go back to the, that, the
lecture we listened to for the very
first episode about like the only
things that you can, Um, that, that,
you know, there's stuff you can control,
which you shouldn't worry about.
And then there's everything
else, which you should.
That's like a, that's
a decent approximation.
Um,
but I, I, there's something for
Speaker 2: a good book though.
Speaker: Yes, I agree.
It wouldn't make for a good book, but
there's something deeply true about
like, that isn't the whole thing.
It is more complex than that.
And I think part of what we're
watching is, is Marcus grapple with
that because he's, he gets to be very
pithy at times, but then other times
we get entries like this where he's
trying, he's sort of scrambling to.
To make it,
Speaker 2: I guess the whole book is
why, like the answer is the question.
Why should I not care about
the things I can't control?
Why should I care about
the things I can't control?
Speaker: Yeah.
And how a little bit too, he's not
very good at answering how, but he's
talking a little bit about how, how is
it that you go about living that life?
Speaker 2: That's true.
That's true.
Speaker: Nice.
Okay.
All right.
I don't have anything more
to say about that long entry.
If you don't, okay, let's do it.
Let's do a nice, a nice, sweet, short one.
Think of yourself as dead.
You have lived your life.
Now take what's left and live it properly.
Lovely.
Hard to do.
Yes.
Yes, definitely.
Impossible.
Like very, very
Speaker 2: hard.
Yeah.
How does one even go about Preparing
oneself for the mental state
required to believe that you're dead.
Like, how do you, like, if this
was the instruction given to
you, Tom, what would you do?
Speaker: Yeah.
Hmm.
I've lived my life.
Yeah.
It's weird.
You know, we say banger
classic, but like, it's,
it's such impractical advice
in the sense, not only is it
just like sort of impossible.
We're just like wired to know that
we're alive, but also like, okay,
if I really was believed that I
was dead and I, my life was over.
Isn't part of that kind of like letting
go of my ambitions and desires in the
world a little bit like that's part
of how I interpret it is like you've
got all this this stuff that keeps you
keeps you busy some of which is is the
big important stuff in life but a lot
of which is kind of like day to day
unimportant distractions or whatever and
so if you think of yourself as and that
you've your life is over part of what
I'm Taking from that is like, okay, zoom
way out to the 30, 000 foot view and say,
what's actually important in, in my life.
And then the point I think he's saying is,
okay, take what's left and limit property.
So only focus on that super
duper important stuff.
Is that, is that how you,
you'd parse it as well?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
But if I was dead also, I think I
would let go of the important stuff.
Like,
Speaker 2: well, okay.
So, so that's the part that's
interesting about this statement.
That's, I think what makes it.
What I like about it, it makes it stoicism
and not nihilism is like, think of your,
you have lived your life and like full
stop would be like, okay, I guess nothing
matters, which is a pointless thought.
But then it's like, now, now
that you've done that exercise.
Speaker: Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which
Speaker 2: is an interesting directive.
I mean, so, so I actually do, so I
don't know, I don't think of myself as
dead, but I, well, I have, I do think
like periodically I'll like, I'll slip
into like, okay, so if I, if I did
die today, would I be like, okay, like
what I'd be pretty, I would be pleased
I think with the life I've lived.
I think that's true.
It's been true at every point
where I've thought about it.
I'm like, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I'm actually like I'm
like, I think I accomplished a lot.
I'm happy with what I did.
Yeah, which is a nice Which is which is
I think very important as compared to
it's the next mountain top It's the next
Ridge that I need to get to and it's
all pointless until I do that and like
yes So that's a good nice way to live.
Yeah, that's nice And so it's like at
any time, at any time along the journey,
you're still pleased with yourself.
Speaker: Yes.
I like that.
I like that better than what
Marcus has written here.
If I'm being totally honest, I think if
it was explained that way, I would, it
would feel easier to connect with to me.
But yes, I agree with that.
I mean, I'm like, whatever the cliche
way of saying that is that it's about
the journey and not the destination.
And so like, if you can live a life
that's oriented that way, where you're
happy with where you are in your journey.
Most of the time, that's pretty good.
Yeah.
I agree.
I like that.
I feel that way too.
I, this particular piece, I guess about,
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker: Think of yourself as dead.
You've lived your life.
Take what's left and live in property.
There's not much, I guess.
If I just do the very quick version of
this exercise, maybe if I really, really
sat with it and just said, okay, I'm
dead, I'm dead, I'm dead for an hour
or whatever, and then like really came
back to it and examine my life, but
maybe it's because this is reflexive
or maybe I don't know, maybe I'm just
in denial or something, but like my
initial reaction is living it properly.
I don't know that there's that much
I'm going to be doing differently
than what I'm, you know what I mean?
If I, when I go through this exercise,
I don't know how much changes.
Maybe that's a
Speaker 2: good point.
Actually, that's a good point.
Speaker: Is there stuff that if you go
through this exercise, is there obvious
stuff about, Oh, wow, I would live.
Here's the proper way I would live
after, after having thought this.
Speaker 2: You know, you almost, I think
you're asking the right question and by
asking it, you're not going to let, you're
not letting me get away with my pithy.
Like, see, I already do this
because I think you're right.
I
Speaker: don't, but it's really hard.
I don't have an answer.
I don't have like a, Oh yes, of
course I, I should do X, Y, Z
instead of, you know, What I'm doing.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
I guess a very small example is I
like, I tend to, I don't, I'm not,
I'm not a super naturally patient
person and I'll have this tendency to
like hurry up so that I can go relax.
So I do this thing where I'll be like,
well, it's important that we need to leave
on time for the grocery store so that we
can get back from the grocery store so
that I can like ooze and watch my show
for 45 minutes instead of half an hour.
And that's really, really important to me.
And like, I guess that's an example of
Speaker: Yeah.
Okay.
Speaker 2: Like, I'm not going to
look back and be like, gosh, I only
got to watch my show for 30 minutes.
Speaker: Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I only got one episode.
Yeah.
That, that, yeah.
That's a, that's a nice example.
Okay.
Yes.
I like how you're, you're making this
pretty, um, specific and concrete.
Like that's a, that's a little
thing and I actually like that it's
a little thing because I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think part of what I find paralyzing
or challenging about directives like
this is how big they feel and how much
they seem to be inviting you to live a
completely different life than the one
you're already living, which for most of
us is maybe, you know, for some of us,
it's possible, but it's, it's a huge ask.
And I like how you're Zooming in a little
bit more and saying, Hmm, here's actually
a smaller thing that, that feels true.
Speaker 2: I don't think I have to
think of myself as dead to get there.
To be honest,
Speaker: that's, that's fair.
Yeah, that, yeah.
The thing, the description you just
gave didn't really, it just required
a little bit of self awareness.
It felt like,
Speaker 2: yeah, I feel like the actual
example with, with actually thinking
of yourself as that is like the,
should I right now, should I be at my.
You know, corporate.
Like meeting or should I be with my
with my partner who's giving birth?
Like that's like the that's a
stereotypical example that I think we're
supposed to get take away from this But
Speaker: yes, I I agree that yes,
it's very much about the major
life choices You've made and how
you're spending the time you have.
Yeah, okay Maybe we're just lucky and we
get to feel pretty happy about the way.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: Okay Well, remember that
Speaker 2: stoicism is for this
is a religion for people who
are in very difficult situations
Speaker: Yes.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: So in some ways
we're not the intended audience.
Speaker: Yes.
My one other reaction to this as I was
reading it is that it, I know we've talked
a lot about the gladiator movie, but
this is more like, uh, something that,
that Maximus might say is, is the vibe.
I, I think of this as like.
Very similar to the speech that
Maximus gives at the beginning of
Gladiator, basically, where he's
like, you know, like, you're a soldier
battling the Germans or whatever,
like the Germanic tribes here.
Great.
You're dead.
We're all dead.
Now let's, let's go into battle.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
If you find yourself, what is it?
Yeah.
I do love that.
It's a good point.
Speaker: The green hills.
On the green hills.
There's a sweet smell on the wind.
You're already in.
Do not
Speaker 2: worry.
Cause you are already in Elysium.
Yeah.
Speaker: Sick.
Yes.
Speaker 2: I love that.
My favorite part of that
line is the do not worry.
Speaker: Yes.
Yes.
Because naturally your reaction
would be, wait a minute, I
wanted to fight barbarians.
What is this sweet smell on the wind?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Ah, so good.
Speaker: Yep.
All right.
Number 57.
To love only what happens.
What was destined.
No greater harmony.
Wow.
No, no regrets is how I interpret this.
Or no jealousies.
Like just This is a
Speaker 2: fridge magnet, Tom.
This is a fridge magnet.
I like
Speaker: this.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's nice.
It's got a little bit of,
it's about dealing with regret, right?
That's how I parse it.
As being like, You could, you know, regret
is love for something that didn't happen.
And so he's saying, don't do that.
Love the things that did happen
because they were destined.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: And that is being like in
touch with the universe or whatever.
And to have regret is to wish for a
different universe than the one you
live in, which just puts you out of
sync with the one that you're in.
Speaker 2: To love only what
happens, what was destined.
No greater harmony.
It's, it's great.
Okay.
I mean, the example I'm thinking of,
this is almost like a joke, but there's
this tendency, um, pasta pointed this
out because she's like an outsider to the
family, but there's this tendency where,
um, you know, my family will go out and,
you know, Like, I don't know, like go to,
go to target and look at a bunch of debt.
We need a vacuum cleaner.
So we look at all the vacuum cleaners
and we're like, Hmm, huffing and hawing
over like which vacuum cleaner to get.
And they all have pros and cons.
And this one's kind of expensive.
And all right, let's just go
with this one and move on.
And then on the car ride home,
it's like, I cannot believe we
like, this is such a good vacuum.
Like we like what idiots would
get the other vacuum cleaners.
We made the absolute right choice.
We are geniuses.
And, and she pointed this out and
I was like, Oh yeah, that's right.
We, we do that.
And it's like, it's, I guess it
is intentional, but it's almost
second nature, like to just be
like, well, whatever choice.
Was made is not now that it's
already made is incredible.
But
Speaker: yes, that's interesting
Yeah, I really like that.
I do think that's actually
a pretty good like whatever.
Yes, all things being equal We're
never gonna know what life was
like with the other vacuum cleaner.
You know, I does well say We crushed it.
If you can find ways to convince yourself
that you did the, the amazing thing,
I think that's the right thing to do.
Speaker 2: It's a recipe for feeling good.
It's not a recipe for
like improving yourself.
Yes.
Yes.
Speaker: Yeah, that's right.
I'm curious with your family.
Who, do you have a sense of who
initiates that or who started that?
It's interesting that that's
such a collective behavior.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think it's my mom
probably that it springs from.
Yeah.
She has a very like reality,
distorting like ethos.
Yeah.
She just got, yeah.
Speaker: It's very charismatic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I say that's, that's very funny.
I w I like it, but I also, it
smacks a little bit of like wanting.
Like reassuring ourselves to that.
Yeah.
In case anyone has any doubts about the
vacuum cleaner, let us all be on the
same page that this is the good one.
Speaker 2: I think that's true.
But it's one of those things where,
you know, in, in like certain yoga
classes, like there's a section at
the end of where you just all laugh.
Like, yes.
At the same time.
Speaker: Forced laughter
together, forced laughter.
Speaker 2: And then you actually
like, it's actually good for you and
you actually start real laughing.
It's, it reminds me of that process
a little bit because I actually, I do
find myself believing in retrospect.
Yes.
In my own,
Speaker: as soon as you start using
the vacuum cleaner, you're thinking
about the conversation you had in the
car with your family about how much
it, whatever the features kick ass.
And then you start using those
features and you're like,
damn, yeah, these do kick ass.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and, and it, and.
Like, let's, let's say one out
of five times you actually are
a genius with this process.
You feel really good about that.
One out of five, four out of five.
Yeah.
You called it and you actually, it
makes you feel really good in a way
that maybe in, if you don't set up
that, like, it's a spectrum, right?
You're not, the truth is that
I'm not actually, I do sometimes
have those regrets and whatever,
and that's normal, but like,
Speaker: it's kind of nice to me anyway.
Yeah.
Those
Speaker 2: are going to happen anyway.
So it's nice to kind of push, like, go a
little bit further to the, like, uh, like
self reinforcement side of the spectrum.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause it's very easy to go to
the other side and be like,
and question everything, right?
Cause it's, cause that's an unknown, like
who knows what would have happened if we
got that other, like, it's easier to think
grass is greener than it is to think.
My grass is awesome.
Speaker: Yes.
Yeah.
Yep.
Now, now that you've said this,
I've, I've never noticed this or
I've never like explicitly thought
about this behavior before, but I,
I am now thinking of two different
friends I have who do this same thing.
Now that I'm thinking about it, like
if we're on a trip or something and
we have to make a decision about
what we're doing this afternoon,
It's the same kind of thing.
We could have a big debate about it.
I do it a little bit, but I
can think of some other folks.
I know who really do this.
Who's like, as soon as we've made
the decision, all they talk about
for the next hour is what a good
decision it is that we've made with
no, no more information that we had
when we were making the decision.
Speaker 3: Um,
Speaker: and it's great.
And now that, now that I think about it,
it makes them very fun to travel with.
It's like, it's a fun, attractive
thing that they do, I think basically.
So yes, exactly.
Yeah.
Fully on board with this.
Uh, This thing.
Yes.
So yes, I really like that way of making
concrete this kind of vague notion of to
love only what happens to love only the
vacuum cleaner that actually happened
and not any of the vacuum cleaners that
didn't happen is that's that's great.
I really like no greater harmony.
Yes.
No greater harmony with the universe
than loving that that vacuum cleaner.
Okay.
Number 58 in all that happens.
Keep before your eyes those who
experienced it before you and felt
shock and outrage and resentment at it.
And now where are they?
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker: Nowhere.
Is that what you want to be like?
Instead of avoiding all these distracting
assaults, leaving the alarms and
flight to others, and concentrating
on what you can do with it all?
Because you can use it.
Treat it as raw material.
Just pay attention and resolve to
live up to your own expectations.
In everything.
And when faced with a choice,
remember our business is with
things that really matter.
Speaker 2: I really like this.
Speaker: Tell me about that.
I think I do too, but, but
what's, what are you reacting to?
Speaker 2: This feels
very actionable to me.
This, I actually think this is
great advice for someone who has.
Imagine the most recent,
you know, problem you had.
And this, this process of,
of going through and be like,
you know, we're really not the
first humans on this planet.
And we're really not the first people to
be upset about, you know, whatever, like,
uh, I don't know a good example here, but,
but like, you know, be upset about, Our
spouse being late to the events, whatever.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, sure.
Yes.
And I, I'm interpreting this as
being like, you know, squabbling
amongst the court or the
military or whatever for sure.
Sure.
Sure.
Yes.
Somebody has come to Marcus and is just
outraged about how unfair something is.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
And then, and then, and then, so,
so it starts with that, which is
the, the sort of nihilism part.
And then what I love about Marcus
every time is he makes it actionable
and he says, because you can use
it, treat it as raw material.
Yes, pay attention and resolve to
live up to your own expectations.
Oh
Speaker: yeah.
Yeah.
That does seem like the key of the thing
there is live up to your own expectations.
Yes.
I think I agree with that.
That part is nice.
Resolve to live up to
your own expectations.
So yes, whenever you're feeling
whatever cheated hurts on, you
know, something, something shocking
and outrageous and unfair to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
This is, this
Speaker: is a very minor version of it,
but, um, there is, there is a I play
a lot of this card game called Badger
the gathering with some of my friends.
And there's this tendency when you play
that game to complain at times about
the cards, which you have drawn and
just say, like, wow, there were, this
isn't going to make sense to anyone
who doesn't play the play the game.
But if there are 11 lands in your
top 17 cards, you're just, and you're
Whatever with your friends talking about
it, you're going to talk about that.
You're going to say, yeah, what, you
know, the chances of that are so low.
It's so unfair, et cetera, et cetera.
And it's crazy how deep, like
I've played this game for a
long time with the same people.
And that has happened to us,
not just other human beings.
These exact same things have
happened to us many, many times.
And yet the temptation to, to
burst out and say, wow, this sucks.
How did, you know, so unfair
that this happened to me.
Um, I, yes, I think this is very
good advice for magic players.
'cause I think you can just say,
okay, actually that's a normal
part of what this activity is.
And we, what you should figure
out is what are your expectations
for yourself in dealing with
situations like that and whatever.
Maybe, maybe they'd be the same,
but one, one thing you might do
is be like, eh, you know what?
Land variance is a part of the game.
I'm just gonna roll with it
and make sure that I'm as well
equipped as anyone to deal with it.
Speaker 2: So the.
I love that example.
Um, so let's, let's, let's
take that one step further.
So what, what do you do with it?
What, how do you use it as raw material?
So it says just pay attention and resolve
to live up to your own expectations.
Speaker: Okay.
Well, it's hard to, I mean, this is
going to, I'm going to try to avoid being
too technical in my answer, but one is
you can figure out how to make sure.
That whatever strategy you're employing
is as well inoculated as it reasonably
could be against this particular problem
of bad luck in your, in your draws.
Um, but another thing I think has to
do more with, with your internal state
and how much it, cause games like this,
that matters too, where if you get
really flustered and you're feeling
really like, wow, this was so unfair,
um, I don't have evidence for this
necessarily, but I have the anecdotal
sense that you do worse because you're
feeling mad and cheated and you just don't
think as clearly, which is important.
So I think part of it
is also just about like.
A way to live up to your expectations is
to say, Hmm, I'm going to, this is not,
you know, I'm having some poor luck.
I'm going to say, I'm going to
observe that poor luck and say,
hello, poor luck that yes, I see that
you're, you have arrived, but I'm
not going to let it like wake me out.
Um,
Speaker 2: Yeah.
What, what?
So, okay.
So I, sorry, listener, we're going to
talk about magic, the gathering now.
I
Speaker: also, how have we gone
this long without, without, I know.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
So I also play this game.
I actually think it is an enjoying
the game as an exercise in
stoicism because it is a card game.
There's a lot of luck involved.
It's a lot of randomness and what
Tom is describing is extremely
important to me in my life because
I think without the ability to do
this, I, you know, this activity that
I love, I like don't love anymore.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So.
The little trick that I'm trying to, I
think I'm naturally not good at this.
I think I like, I have a hard time
with randomness and loss, but, um,
what I try to do is I say to myself
that it's, it's a fun challenge.
Basically that, that attitude of like,
wouldn't it be great if I drew 11 lands
and then still found a way to win.
Yeah, that's nice.
And it's, it does two things.
It acknowledges.
without, you know, it
acknowledges and then it turns
it into something interesting.
It's, it's kind of this, I've been
thinking a lot lately about this idea
of like, when again, video games,
but if you have in a video game,
you oftentimes you like, What's the
higher difficulty you want to play?
It's more satisfying.
You do it for a reason.
People love these types of games that
are, I forget what they're called, but
they're just like really hard games.
That's like a genre of
game and people love it.
And, and so, and so anytime there's
hardship, there is a way to spin that
and be like, Isn't it awesome that
I get the, I get to play at like,
whatever, like hard instead of just
playing at medium my whole life.
Like, um, very privileged,
obviously a very, but like, there
is a way to think about that.
It thinks that way.
Speaker: Totally.
Yes.
I really liked that perspective
of seeing it as like a challenge.
And I guess the way I would add
to that is like, another way I
might think about it is like, okay.
You know, this is a game of chance
to some extent, this card game,
but there are really good players.
And then there are less
good players of this game.
We know that much.
Some people win more than others.
And I think one thing that's true
is that those people who win a lot.
Figure out how to win in those, in
those, you know, poor luck visits
them too, but they are a little bit
better at figuring out how to win in
those bad luck situations where the
things are conspiring against them.
So it is, yes, that fun challenge
that you're describing is not just
a fun challenge because like, haha,
now I get to try to do a hard thing.
It is also actually at the heart
of the thing you're trying to do.
At all, which is trying to figure out how
to become a better player of this game.
This is how you do that is exactly how
to deal with that kind of situation.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's not even just fun side quest.
It's the main quest.
Speaker 2: You're right.
You said something inspiring the other
day, which is that, like, the best players
know how to turn a, a bad hand into a win.
It's not like anyone can
turn a good hand into a win.
It's not like Yeah.
Tom, uh, I, I am in a shared living
space with my parents, um, and my wife.
So, and someone turned on the,
um, the walk, the, the washing
machine like right next to me.
So let me just go turn
that off real quick.
Okay.
Speaker: I can't hear
it at all for what it's
Speaker 2: worth.
It's distracting.
You go for it.
I just feel like it's going
to come out in editing.
So give me just 10 seconds.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: All right.
I'm back.
Yeah.
No more, no more washing.
I didn't know your
parents are that's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Have you, by the way, noticed
my higher audio quality?
Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Wow.
Good point.
Yes.
Now that you say that.
Yes.
I am noticing that.
Oh, good.
Yes.
I didn't clog it right away.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's a mic.
Speaker: Yes.
I see.
We both have mics sticking up in our
video right now in front of our faces.
But yeah.
Yeah, very nice.
We are a professional podcast here.
Washington are washing machines or
Speaker 2: it's back on.
I lifted the lid and
then I close it again.
And it's one of those that
doesn't interrupt itself.
It's
Speaker: going, okay.
It's it's I don't hear anything.
I think maybe the listeners won't either.
Speaker 2: Um, Okay.
Why don't we, why don't you
start reading the next one?
I am going to just go to like, just cause
I know that, so our headphones have,
and, and zoom has noise cancellation, but
the actual audio file is not going to.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
All right.
Just go take care of it then.
Yeah.
The next, the next one is
short, so I'll just let you,
um, just go do that real quick.
I'll make one more point while
you're, while you're walking away
to do that, which I can just say out
loud, which is that we've, there's
that, that entry number 58, which
I really, Enjoyed our conversation
about it does end with our businesses,
with the things that really matter.
So I just think it's funny that we
talked about magic, the gathering
in response to that particular
entry, because I think it's just,
Speaker 2: that's hilarious.
Yeah.
So we dug deep back to opposite.
Speaker: Tack in a way or, or whatever,
maybe we reveal what really matters to us.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, what's
funny as, as, um, again, I'm in
a, I'm in the living room here.
So everyone in my family and my
wife is like walking by and giving
me facial reactions as we talk.
Okay.
The, the reaction I got when we were
going through that and I was talking about
something like, Oh, you know, we don't
really have these problems or whatever.
The reaction I got from Oopie, who,
by the way, my wife, who we got to get
on the podcast, her reaction was, uh,
Actually, like don't diminish your own.
Like everyone has difficulty.
Like it's all, you know,
Speaker: she's, she's
straight up talking to you.
That's funny.
I thought she was like a facial
reaction while you, while
you're recording the podcast.
Okay.
No, no, no one seems to have
Speaker 2: any qualms just talking to me.
Yeah.
It's okay.
Great.
It's all good.
Speaker: Okay.
Yeah.
I, I, I agree with that
perspective from, from Upaza.
I forget exactly which moment we
were talking about that, but yeah, I
think, I think that's, That's right.
I don't want to.
It's
Speaker 2: nice.
Giving permission.
I, I'm not sure I can, I need to
think about it a little more to
get totally comfortable with it,
but it is a interesting notion.
Speaker: I think it's very much at the,
it's very much related to stoicism too.
I think to not worry about like whatever,
comparing your life to other people's
lives and just saying, here's, here's
the stuff that's going on with me.
Um, true.
So yeah.
Anyway.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: And, and I think, you know,
you, uh, You get to know enough ultra
wealthy people and you realize like
some of their issues, even though
they're not really issues are horrible
and I would love to just have my
simple, you know, like money, health,
family issues instead or whatever.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yep.
Yeah.
I agree.
It's not, it's not just a linear.
Spectrum like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Last one time.
Don't wait.
Shall we read one more?
This one is very appropriate to
something we were talking about earlier.
So yes, we let's, let's
finish with this one.
Number 59.
Dig deep, the water goodness is
down there and as long as you keep
digging, it will keep bubbling up.
Do you think that she at YC
was just reading or he was just
reading entries from meditations
to give advice to his YCs?
I mean, that seems exactly like
the thing that you said, basically.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does.
Wow.
This is, this is exactly, and it's
funny because David's reaction to
that, David is like ethnically Chinese.
Yeah.
And he was like, yeah, this sound,
he just sounds like a, uh, uh, like a
caricature of a Chinese, like old man.
So I guess it's, it's, it's
not just, you know, Aurelian.
I mean, obviously,
dig deep, the water.
I love the, I love how he
interrupts himself with goodness.
Speaker: Well, so yeah.
Okay.
That's an interesting.
I think there's two ways to
parse, or at least I see two ways
to parse what he means by it.
So it's dig deep, semi colon,
the water, M dash goodness,
M dash is down there, period.
That could be like the way that we now
use the phrase goodness to be like, damn,
or like, wow, you know, so it could be
like, Oh, I see the water is down there.
Or it could be like, dig deep, the water.
And by water, I
metaphorically mean goodness.
is down there.
Speaker 2: I definitely did not interpret
it as gosh, gosh, but that is funny.
That's really funny.
You could
Speaker: read it that way for sure.
I think, yes, I, okay.
My first reading was the same as
yours though, is that he's, yeah,
Speaker 2: he's defining water
for the really stupid of us.
Yes.
It does seem like it seems like
Speaker: a bummer that he felt
that like he had to do that.
Cause I think if he just said,
dig deep, the water is down there.
That's nice.
I think we
Speaker 2: really like the version
you described, like the version where
he interrupts himself and he's like,
Speaker: wow, damn water.
Hell yeah.
Speaker 2: Dig deep.
The water.
Yeah,
Speaker: I agree.
Okay.
Well, maybe let's interpret it that
way then, even though I think both
of us maybe don't totally believe
it, but yeah, the water, hell yeah.
It's down there.
And as long as you keep
digging, it'll keep bubbling up.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: I
Speaker 2: like it.
I do feel sad for the
people who I don't know.
There will be someone who digs in
the wrong place and there actually
aren't, you know, wells everywhere, so
Speaker: Yes, that's true.
Yeah.
There are, there are.
Yeah.
This is really kind of a, a, a
request for faith in a way, I think.
Yeah.
And so yes, it has all
the limitations of faith.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
But it's nice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I dig it.
I think that one is arguably
fridge magnet material as well.
Speaker 2: Dig deep.
The water goodness is down there.
I think with the interpretation could be.
Yeah.
Speaker: Exactly.
Yeah.
Could
Speaker 2: be fridge magnet.
I like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
Awesome.
Speaker: All right.
Good stuff.
Just taking that note.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like
Speaker 2: at the end we can order
some fridge magnets and our like four
listeners can also get them if they want.
It'll be fun.
Yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Yes.
Anybody who makes it all the way through
will get like a, the last episode.
Well, I can't reveal that now cause
they'll just jump to the last episode,
but some episode between now and
the end, there will be a promo code
where you get a free fridge magnet
with a Marcus Aurelius quote on it.
That's right.
But only for our loyalist listeners.
That's right.
All right.
I guess we'll start, we'll
start organizing that between
now and the next episode.
Speaker 2: Thanks everyone.
Speaker: All right.
Bye.