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Fascinating conversations with founders, leaders, and experts about product management, artificial intelligence (AI), user experience design, technology, and how we can create the best product experiences for users and our businesses.
Kyle 00:30
A podcast about product management user experience design, technology, and more.
This is product by design.
Alright.
Welcome to another episode of Product by Design I am Kyle.
Kyle 00:39
And this week, We are happy to welcome another guest to the show, Frederick Ron Schreeb.
I hope I pronounced that correctly.
Fredrik 00:44
Yeah.
Yeah.
You did.
It it sounded good.
It's better than most people do it.
Fredrik 00:44
So yeah.
Kyle 00:46
Welcome to the show, Frederick.
Fredrik 00:49
Thank you so much.
Happy to be here, Kyle.
Kyle 01:13
Awesome.
Let me do a brief intro for you, Frederick, and then we'll have you tell us a little bit more about yourself.
But Frederick is a passionate and innovative copywriter with a wealth of experience across a number of different industries, originally from Sweden.
And now in San Francisco.
So lot to unpack there, but why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself?
Fredrik 01:27
Yeah, I'm 32 years old.
I've lived in San Francisco.
Been here for approximately 6 years.
I moved over here for school and just decided to stay in Southern California because it's a lot warmer and not as dark as in Sweden.
Kyle 01:48
Awesome.
Well, I'm excited to to talk a little bit more about your background, about copywriting, and advertising because I think it has so many things relevant to a lot of the things that all of us do on a day to day basis.
But before we dive into that and into your experience, why don't you tell us about some of the things that you do outside of the office?
Fredrik 02:05
Outside of work, I'm a huge sucker for our storytelling.
I go to the movies probably like 2 or 3 times a week.
They have this A list on AMC that lets you watch like 3 movies a week.
I think it's 20 bucks a month.
So take highly advantage of that and go to the movies a lot.
Fredrik 02:26
More recently, I've started climbing a lot I find it like a very fun way to exercise.
Usually exercising can be a heavy lift and not as fun, but with climbing it, it's something really childish and fun about it that I love.
So I'm doing that and some surfing and we have a dog too, me and my girlfriend, so that takes a lot of time too.
Kyle 02:47
Awesome.
Well, I've I'll be excited to hear about some of your either favorite movies or or things that you've watched recently.
We usually ask towards the end for some of the things that you might recommend.
So that'll be an exciting 1 to get some of of your take on.
But your the dog that you have, what kind of dog do you have?
Fredrik 03:00
I have a little Australian shepherd miniature.
His name is blue.
We got him from Montana, and he said, yeah, it's 2 years now and he's crazy, but he's very fun too.
Very lovable.
Kyle 03:13
Very nice.
Very nice.
Yeah.
We have a young, golden we have a we have dogs actually, so golden retriever and a golden doodle.
And our golden doodle is 8 or 9 months old now.
Kyle 03:15
So he's still a puppy
Fredrik 03:16
and -- It's that wild age.
Kyle 03:16
--
Kyle 03:31
quite the yeah.
He's he's a riot.
So it's it's a lot of fun having having talked around.
Awesome.
Well, I'm I'm excited again, like I said, to jump into your journey, some of the things that you've been working on.
Kyle 03:43
So why do you tell us more about that?
Tell us about your journey, you know, what brought you to, what you're working on now, and what led you into, you know, advertising and copywriting and and the space that you're in.
Fredrik 04:03
I've always been fascinated about storytelling.
I think it started back when I was a kid in Sweden.
I remember we had VHS tape.
You remember those like old VHS tapes?
And I think we had, like, a recording of Brave Heart on 1 of the on 1 of those tapes, and I think I must have watched it, like, 200 times or something.
Fredrik 04:24
III won't say like Braveart is the best movie of all time, but it definitely has made a big impact on me.
And there's just something about the storytelling and and a journey unfolding that's always fascinated me.
And it scared me through my whole life.
I love telling stories.
I love exploring new things.
Fredrik 04:57
And I think movies really lit that adventure inside of me that's taken me here.
So coming and studying abroad and working in another country in a language that's not my first language has has been a very big challenge, but also a big adventure for me to do.
So that's what took me here basically.
And in advertising and copywriting It's storytelling.
It's really connecting to emotions and feelings and creating a journey and a story about a brand.
Fredrik 05:02
And I just love getting to do what I really love and what I'm passionate about too.
So
Kyle 05:04
That's awesome.
So I want to talk
Kyle 05:32
a little bit more about a couple of those things.
Now, you know, first off, tell us a little bit about the I'm interested in the experience about coming from Sweden to the United States and specifically San Francisco.
You know, what were some of the things that were maybe different than your expectations?
You know, what was that experience like both that either were in line with your expectations or maybe different than some of your expectations.
Fredrik 05:52
Yeah.
Definitely, it's a huge cultural difference Sweden from America.
America people are more outgoing.
They say what they think while it's in Sweden people are a little bit more careful.
They don't they're trying to be a little bit pleasing everyone, which can be, for me, I've always thought that being a little bit annoying, I want to hear the truth.
Fredrik 06:35
I want people to speak their it to me.
And I feel like in America, people are better at doing that, especially around here in Silicon Valley where I work where you need the fast results you can't linger on and and talk around stuff, you need to get the results fast.
So visiting America and and experiencing that excited me and that's also why I wanted to move here because I wanted to work in an environment where I get to really put myself out there and and and show and show good work and do good work.
And if I don't do good work, I'll gonna get people are going to tell me that directly and I'll know how to evolve and become better with it.
So definitely that's the cultural difference that I feel it's the difference between here.
Fredrik 06:53
And also people here are very helpful and people want to see you succeed.
So I feel like when you're doing something, when you're doing a good job, people are very vocal about it and really pass you on your back and it motivates you to continue striving towards greatness?
Kyle 07:15
Absolutely.
So I'm interested in your You've kind of talked about it a little bit, you know, copywriting and the advertising aspect.
You'll for for those who may be listening and and may be new to it, you know, what exactly is copywriting in, you know, in in the way that we're talking about it and and in what you're working
Fredrik 07:49
I think it's telling the story, when you visit our website, a landing page, it's obviously, the first thing you're gonna notice is this sign and that tells a story by itself.
I think copywriting goes into the depth of it and it really gets into the details and explains what the brand and the value is about.
So it gives the broader story of what a brand is.
And I you know, it's not only it's not only the words you use and and such.
It's also about like how much text you use.
Fredrik 08:12
Like, if there's a lot of that tells a story whilst if you don't lose a lot of text, that's another story.
So it's the power of words and filling the gaps and the white space yeah, and that's and you need to be strategic with the words you choose and how the nuances of language should effectively communicate what you want to say and but it gives like the broad picture and the storytelling of a brand.
Kyle 08:57
Awesome.
Yeah.
I think that that is a really, really great way to look at it is that, you know, when we think about the whole experience of a product, you know, you're you're you're really looking at, you know, when you go to a website, for example, like you said, you know, there's the design that is there.
There's some of the experience that in the interaction.
And then a really important part is the the words and the story and like you said, the copyright, the copywriting or the copy of what is there, the storytelling of everything that is on that site or on whatever it is that you're looking at, you know, telling the story of the brand or the product or whatever it is, which is such an important part.
Kyle 09:08
Maybe you can tell us a little bit more about that because You know, I don't think we talk often, we don't talk enough about that, but why is that such an important part of a company or a brand or a product?
Fredrik 09:46
Think it goes down to people want to be part of a community and whenever they visit or see something that they resonate with, that's going to build a bridge.
And I think that's what's copywriting is so important too because we're not just selling services or products.
We're we're trying to connect with people.
And the best way to do that is with words because we talk to each other and we can't do that online like we can't always get 1 to 1 contact.
So when people visit our website or interact with a brand, we need to resonate with them and make them feel that connection with us.
Fredrik 10:04
And that's where good cop writing does a really good job.
Of connecting with people.
And some brands do it really great and some people in some brands do not.
And it's so much more also about keeping a consistent voice throughout too.
And if people connect with it, they're going to love it.
Fredrik 10:16
And if they don't, they're not going to buy your service or product too.
So I feel like it's a very important thing and a lot of brands that I see are not keeping a consistent voice throughout, and that hurts them.
Kyle 10:34
Absolutely.
I'm interested Do you have any examples that come to mind as far as brands who are really good at the copy or copywriting or storytelling?
Of their products or brand or services, and maybe some that we won't call them bad but
Fredrik 10:35
work
Kyle 10:40
as good or could use some work in their copy or their storytelling that they come to mind?
Fredrik 11:03
Yeah.
I I think definitely, like, probably the most too famous are Apple who does great great cop writing and great writing throughout.
And they've always been very focused on keeping a good design and also good copy And they don't overuse their copy.
They're like, you don't see a lot of copy on Apple sites.
And I think that works in their favor too.
Fredrik 11:19
Not being too much out there and keeping some kind of mystery around them.
Even though they're the biggest brand in the world, they keep They still have a mystery feeling to Apple.
And what does that?
And that's the copywriting that they have.
It really feels like an exclusive club that you want to be a member of.
Fredrik 11:43
I'd say 1 opposite is probably Facebook that's a little bit too much everywhere and you kind of get annoyed by it.
And it just -- yeah, it doesn't come off right.
And it's hard to pinpoint what exactly it is.
It's just like a feeling that you get.
And I'm sure you can you can agree on that with some brands that you just feel like, I don't really like this brand, but I don't know why.
Fredrik 11:49
Or I really like this band, but I don't know why either.
And I think that comes down to how you're messaging.
Kyle 12:18
That's such a good point when you bring that up.
So, I mean, Obviously, when we talk about Apple, design, and copy, like there's it's it feels so effortless.
And so good that I think most of us will will think apple when we think of just really, really good overall design and storytelling and that comes down to, you know, the UX of it, the UI and the copy.
Mhmm.
But when you mentioned Facebook, like, immediately, he popped into my head so much of the experience and the copy.
Kyle 13:04
Like, I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that initially, but when you said it, I was like, a couple examples came to mind and I was like, oh, yeah.
That is absolutely true.
And I you're right.
I hadn't put my finger on it before but it there's just there's so much going on and it feels disconnected in a lot of ways.
That in a lot of times you and this probably goes to your point that a poor copy and poor copywriting and poor storytelling kind of disconnects all of the different areas of a product or a brand or a service in ways that we may not be able to feel we may not be able to see exactly, but we can feel it, and it's and it it really has a disjointed experience.
Kyle 13:19
And when you start to put a finger on it, you're like, oh yeah.
There's either too much going on or this story differs too much from from 1 point to another.
And it just leaves, I guess, a bad feeling or bad taste in your mouth.
Exactly.
Fredrik 13:36
Yeah.
And I feel like also to that great storytelling and great copywriting leaves you with a film that you want more.
You just want more.
I want to learn more about this, even though I know everything about it, there still must be somewhere I can explore something more whilst on the other way, you you just I I had enough.
Leave me alone.
Fredrik 13:41
Get away from me.
Cancel the yeah.
Stop stop sending me spam's, basically.
Kyle 14:17
Absolutely.
So I'm I'm interested because you've mentioned before about, you know, working at a a startup now.
And previously working at an agency and now working in house, tell us a little bit about the difference between working at an agency, doing copy and copywriting versus working in house, what some of your experiences and some of the things that you've seen, both the benefits and and maybe drawbacks and what that experience is like, both as a copywriter and maybe as a brand?
Fredrik 14:51
It depends on a lot of agencies work differently.
On some agency, you'll be working with just 1 brand another agency you've been working on several.
From my experience, I've been on agencies where I've been working with several brands all at the same time.
And you kind of become like a pod of that brand, well you're just working with yeah making an advertising campaign and that can be a good thing in a way because you don't have a fully standing of the company and what their story is.
So you can really become creative and create really fun stuff with it.
Fredrik 15:23
And I think there's some agencies that do that really well.
The problem is also that you don't know everything about the brand and the values.
So you might miscommunicate what they're trying to say, you might have troubles really understanding what the brand is about.
Whilst, if you're in an in house you have the full scope, you have the full picture of what the value, what they're trying to say, where are we heading to?
And I think that makes such a big difference when you're writing to.
Fredrik 15:45
And I prefer being in in house from working in both because I really want to have that full understanding of what the company is.
And writing flows so much easier with it too.
And you can Yeah, and it's just really fun to get to know someone like a, it becomes like a really good friend that you get to know and you get talk about that friend and how much you love him?
Kyle 16:33
No.
I can definitely understand that in really being able to obviously, the benefit of being able to bring kind of an outside perspective from an agency and being able to add some of that either experience from other places, but then also really in house being able to dive deep and have that really deep understanding and knowledge and and bring a lot of that out in the copy and the storytelling for for a product and a brand and an experience.
Now you mentioned you're working at a startup.
I'm interested in some of the benefits and challenges of creating that story and the copy at a start up, what has been some of your experience in doing that in the storytelling in the startup stage.
Fredrik 17:22
Start us about fun because it's really fast paced like everything needs to happen fast and it's moving quickly and there's not enough personnel to go around so but you also get to really explore and push the boundaries of what you're trying to say with this brand because it's constantly evolving and especially in a start up, everything's not figured out.
And you're basically AB testing everything to see where you're going and trying to figure out and it allows for a lot of experimental text, experimental copy to try and see what we can be.
It's a really fun journey to be on.
And in a startup, everyone's working towards same goal.
Everyone feels a community feeling of trying to make the best possible brand there is.
Fredrik 17:53
It's a lot of fun, I'd say that's the benefit and you get to work with a lot of people who feel the same, who are excited about what you're doing.
Challenge this is, yeah, you're going to work hard, you're going to work a lot.
There's going to be points where you're missing the goal and you'll learn from that But I think it's a really good place to be, especially for young people in the industry to learn how to make mistakes and learn from them.
I think a startup is a really great place of doing that.
Kyle 18:19
Kind of the ability to wear many any different hats and have your hands in a whole bunch of different areas.
Yeah.
You don't necessarily always get that.
At larger established places, but at a startup, it's almost by default where you have to be involved in a whole bunch of different things.
And you have to be working across multiple teams in in a whole bunch of different areas in different ways.
Kyle 18:28
So -- Exactly.
Yeah.
-- totally agree with that.
And that's and that's definitely been my experience as well.
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Kyle 20:08
You mentioned when we were talking before that you're working on a rebrand.
And I think rebrands are are are are fascinating.
I I was part of an internal rebrand early in my career and then was part part of a rebrand more on the periphery.
As I was working with a product team, and and we were part of a group that was helping another company do a rerun.
And these could be like really, really massive things in order to to do something like that.
Kyle 20:39
Why is a rebrand such a big deal.
And what has been your experience with that?
You know, going through the process of of rebranding.
And, you know, basically, III think it's kind of, you know, there there's you know, rebranding can be, you know, as as simple as, you know, changing some of the local.
But I think it goes deeper than that in you're really taking a lot of the things and and changing almost the perception and some of the story behind it.
Kyle 20:48
So I'm interested in your take on working through rebrand, working through all of the things that go with it.
What has that been like and what does that really entail?
Fredrik 21:19
Yeah.
Rebranding is it's something really fun and interesting to do.
And our CMO talked about earlier a few weeks back how like a rebranding, if you're lucky you get to do 1 or 2 during your career, but most people don't get to ever you work at once.
So a really good opportunity.
And it's I think the great part about it is when you start a rebrand, you have to take a step back.
Fredrik 21:58
And look at what you've been working on for the past years.
And see, like is this where we want to go?
Like where is this leading us?
If we're going to do a rebranding now, we have to pivot some we have to pivot away and have a good cost of doing that So it's really like an internal you go internally and look through everything what your core values are, what you're trying to say.
And you can really, really experiment a lot with the rebranding and it's really fun to experiment around and see where we go and you can plan like, oh, where do we want to be 10 years from now?
Fredrik 22:25
And I think that rebranding is a really refreshing start.
It feels like, you remember, like, the last scene of the Lion King when everything's on fire and then the rain start and everything turns green again.
It's kind of like that.
It's a new starts, a new beginning, and I feel like it's a revamp for and it's an injection of energy into a company sometimes it's very much needed for a company to really start a new chapter and get going forward.
Kyle 22:53
I definitely agree.
So I'm interested in working with all of the different teams across an organization.
So you know, obviously that's an important part especially in a smaller organization.
Yeah.
As you're working on the products and the marketing and the copy that will go and kind of tell the story of all of the things that you're showing to to users and customers.
Kyle 23:10
How do you work with all of the different teams from the product team to the UX team to the marketing team to the sales team?
How does that all come together?
In this story that you're telling and the copy that you're writing for the different products and the brand.
Fredrik 24:16
Yeah, as the marketing copywriter, I'm going to be responsible for external copy and our advertising campaigns and it's really it's very vital for me to understand all the different teams and how they're working and how they're right.
But what you don't want is every team to become a little hub where they're doing their own thing and writing in their own way and the voice is going to be all over the place.
So you really want to keep that consistency throughout a company, then I mean, it's it's you wanna keep a consistency and a voice throughout but still working on product, you want to be very informative whilst working on social, you want to be fun and inviting it's nuances to how to shape a voice.
And that's the real challenge of working as a copywriter on a company is is keeping that through line, that red line throughout the company, but with the little nuances on every team that impacts and make make it specific for them.
And yeah, it's a challenge and it never gets perfect.
Fredrik 24:39
You're always working on it.
It's still it's a working process throughout and it's not supposed to be perfect either because if it's perfect, if you want the perfect, you shouldn't have any copy at all, but then you're going to lose then people's not going to be interested in your company.
So it's a challenge and it's always evolving process.
Of finding new nuances and and and and shaping the voices.
Kyle 25:03
No.
That makes a lot of sense.
And how do you go through that process of finding the right voice for some of those different areas whether it's on social media, whether it's in more maybe more technical documentation.
You know, how do you find the right balance.
And and then how do you find kind of that consistency for, you know, either to begin?
Kyle 25:13
And then how do you go back and continually work to revise some of that because like you said, it's an ongoing process.
Yeah.
Walk us through I guess some of that balancing act.
Fredrik 25:45
Well, I think what we start with is we're really trying to create a bible, a style guide or a brand guideline, say, and we work from there.
And you have to create sort of a map of where the different teams are at.
Like if it's if it's a x you make an x and y axle and if it's gonna be fun, it's gonna be a little bit over over here.
If it's gonna be educational.
It should be on the other side of the map.
Fredrik 26:06
But it still has to keep that, like I said, through line throughout.
And It could be with wording, it could be with different words that you use throughout all the different categories.
But yeah, yeah, I think like working with a map and creating a style guide and guidelines is really important to do that throughout.
Kyle 27:05
I think that's a great place to be Now I'm I'm interested because there there's kind of a spectrum at least in my experience of of companies where I've, you know, I've worked in companies where we've had writers and writing teams.
And as a product person, I'm able to put together a copy, for example, for product specific things.
And have the writing team either take that and and adjust it and then either put it out there or or let me put it, you know, post it to product specific areas.
All the way on the other spectrum where, you know, we don't have necessarily a robust enough writing team or copywriters or marketing to to be able to to do something like that.
And it's left to a lot of individuals to create some of the copy for whether it's the the product specific areas or, you know, some other places.
Kyle 27:31
You know, have you seen that and, you know, what what would be the best way to deal with something like that, especially when you you definitely want to have a consistent voice and you want to be able to tie all of these things together but, you know, especially in some smaller companies, it's not necessarily given foremost thought for, you know, to have this consistent story and this consistent voice throughout.
Fredrik 28:03
I think some company, you you cannot expect the copywriter to be everywhere and and tweak everything to make it perfect.
And don't think it's good for a company either.
I think you really need to trust your employees also.
And just because you're working on product, you're working with the sign doesn't make you a bad writer, say, you still understand the company, you still understand what you're trying to do and you have the most knowledge about what you're working on.
So you're going to have an understanding of what you're trying to say.
Fredrik 28:54
Then a copywriter can come with an external view on things and say, hey, I don't really understand this.
We need probably for our clients, for our customers to understand this, we need to say it in this way.
But I think everyone on a company should really try to write as much as possible if they hide time for it because it's really good for yourself to understand what you're trying to say if you write it out.
Instead of just leaving it over to a copywriter, if you can explain what you're trying to do, you're going to become better at working with it too.
So I think everyone should try to write as much as possible and a copywriter can be there to help you to guide you to tweak things But like I said, the product team is going to have the most knowledge about the product.
Fredrik 28:57
So let them write first and then have a copy to come in and tweak things.
Kyle 30:12
I absolutely love that.
I think I totally agree that I think everybody should write and should write more because I think that that's a critical part of any business and really any understanding of a product of a user experience of a brand in general.
And depending on where you're at, like you said, being able to have a dedicated either a dedicated copywriter or somebody being able to add the unified voice or the additional context to some of that, especially early on when you're trying to keep all of that unified and really put together a cohesive narrative and story and, you know, have that really be a team effort of everybody contributing?
And then trying to tie that all together in a really good way.
And then as you scale up, obviously, you have a lot more options to be able to have more people involved in that and have maybe more dedicated people doing the writing, but never really giving it up entirely, especially for people who are closest to it, it shouldn't be something kind of like you said that goes away.
Kyle 30:37
You know, if I'm the person who's closest to it, I should still be very much involved if it's my product in helping craft some of that narrative and story, but also working very closely with somebody who can help tell that story in a way that also ties together with the rest of the story that we're telling across the brand.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
Fredrik 31:01
Yeah, exactly.
It needs to be collaborative because sometimes there's situations where I get handed a brief, oh, can you explain this product or this thing?
And I know about the product.
I know how to explain it, but I don't know the nuances of it.
So if a product person writes out at first, or we can have a conversation about it.
Fredrik 31:11
We can together craft what's the best?
Like what's the best So so a a customer can easily understand the metrics of it.
Kyle 31:52
I think that's great.
Now What about when our copy or language or story starts to get a little bit old or outdated?
This is something that I know we were dealing with in 1 of my roles previously that we had a lot of just older copy and older language and and things on there that was really starting to get outdated and, you know, we needed to go through and and just really start to revise and update a lot of the story that we were telling and the things that we were talking about.
What's been your experience in that?
Obviously, you know, that may not be the case necessarily in a really new company.
Kyle 32:09
But, you know, as as we start to grow and things change, you know, how can we, I guess, do better about staying on top of our story and staying on top of the voice and the way that we're telling our story?
Fredrik 32:44
Yeah.
Language, evolves all the time and copied us to and and how we're speaking about products, how we're speaking about a company is probably gonna be changing the next 5 years and we're gonna need to update the things we're writing today.
So I think it's really important and that's big part of my job is going around and seeing how we're talking about our product and how we're explaining And is it like do people understand this?
Is this updated?
Yeah, is this easy to understand?
Fredrik 33:06
And I think that's a big part of my job is really to find those things that it's not working anymore and updating it.
And it's always evolving.
It's always evolving.
Sometimes what we wrote last week doesn't work because something happened culture in the world and we need to change it.
It's it's always evolving and you really need to stay on top of things.
Fredrik 33:35
And so I think like, yeah, being really updated what's going around in the world and how people how other companies are communicating is really important to do that and seeing what other people do, what's working for them, and being flexible with how you're speaking, and being flexible with the voice too, still have that core of it, but be ready to update and evolve around how we speak and how we understand things today.
Kyle 34:34
You you bring up such a good point because language is always evolving and our our culture is continually moving and adjusting.
And, you know, the market that we're in or that our products are in can be shifting and adjusting as well.
And so being able to adjust to that and tell the story in an appropriate way is is really important because you know, the the way that we're telling it 5 years ago may be the absolute wrong way to tell it now.
And especially as we see the way that people are thinking about storytelling and thinking about culture and all of these different things, something that may have been benign and and this is what came to my mind as you as you were kind of going through that.
May have seemed benign a few years ago, may actually be something that is no longer been and and no longer the way that we want to portray the product or portray the story.
Kyle 35:08
And so constantly staying up to date with those types of things.
How do you I guess, how do you go about that?
How are you keeping up to date with a lot of that thinking and a lot of the language and the storytelling, And then how are you helping other people understand that, hey, we need to maybe adjust the way that we're talking about our products or our brand or our story because there's these things happening and we may need to be thinking about that in a new way.
Fredrik 35:37
Yeah, I try to really stay updated in what's happening around in the world watching a lot of news.
I watch a lot of YouTube too.
I think there's it's really good things to found in popular culture, what's happening on YouTube, what's happening around what are people reading, what are people interested in and really draw inspiration from there.
And then also looking at obviously other companies how they're doing like who's doing the best who's doing the best job at it right now?
Who's leading this?
Fredrik 35:54
Who's leading the language forward right now?
And looking at that and looking at trends, what people are interested in?
And then really going back and sharing that within the company, hey, this company is doing this.
This is really interesting.
People are reacting And today, there's so much data defined around this.
Fredrik 36:33
And we can really be, if we really take the time and look into data and looking into trends, you can really stay on top of it and be 1 of the companies that drive it forward.
And just have a conversation and not being afraid of of changing and evolving and trying out new stuff.
I think sometimes companies can be scared of trying new stuff because they set a voice.
It's taking time to figure that out and and doing changes to it can be can be scary, but I think we always need to be experimenting with different things.
And there's always really interesting and found outlets to to experiment on.
Fredrik 36:51
Right now we're doing some interesting stuff with SEO writing that's it's boring writing.
People say, but you can do really fun stuff with SEO writing.
You can really get a joke in there and make people laugh and make something fun of something that otherwise is is not as interesting as yeah.
Kyle 37:02
Yeah.
Absolutely.
No.
That's great.
Now for somebody who wants to maybe get into copywriting or advertising or just general storytelling.
Kyle 37:05
And what advice would you have for them in order to get into this?
Fredrik 37:39
If you're really interested about it, I'd say, yeah, find things that really inspire you.
For me, it's always been movies and great writing in movies have always inspired me to become a writer and that's what really brought me here.
It's at storytelling.
And being able to pinpoint a feeling, be able to pinpoint an emotion that's what inspired me a lot watching movies that I can really be drawn into it.
And that's what I have always wanted to to be good at.
Fredrik 37:58
I wanted to write stuff that people get drawn into that people find interesting that they want to read and that makes people feel things So I'd say if you're passionate about making an impact and really doing something fun and creative.
I think writing is is a really good outlet for that.
Kyle 38:08
I I think that's awesome and and a great way to to kind of get into it.
And probably a great way to explore a number of different opportunities or -- Yeah.
Kyle 38:08
--
Kyle 38:17
things like that.
So I I think that's awesome.
Now is there anything that you wish you would have known before you had started or earlier in your career?
Fredrik 38:51
That I wish I knew.
That's a good question.
No, that it takes time it takes time to be to write something simple it takes time.
Whenever you see something and you think oh, that's a very simple way of saying it, there's been so much written before that's taken them to that place because the simplest stuff are usually the most well thought out stuff.
The more words you're trying to explain a thing, the less thinking there is behind it.
Fredrik 39:28
So it's all about writing out everything as big as possible and then just revising and shortening everything until you have that 1 sentence that explains something.
And I think earlier in my career, I've been I've been anxious to just get it done and not taking the time into refining and making it perfect.
But it's a process and you have to understand that the process is going to take time and it's going to be frustrating sometimes.
But once you get to that point when you have something really really complicated, explained in a sentence or 2.
It's a good feeling to feel.
Kyle 39:52
Yeah.
I highly, highly endorse that.
It it definitely takes time both in your career in order to to do the things that that you want to be able to do and then to create the really good like you're talking about.
Like, it is to do something that looks effortless, it really does take a lot of time.
And I've found that absolutely to be true, you know, going into just a number of different things that
Kyle 39:53
--
Kyle 40:19
Yes, man.
-- you know, you think that I'm going to be able to do this and I just wanna get it done But to do it well and to come out with that really nice finished product, it just it always takes more time than than you think it's going to.
And just having the patience in order to say, you know, this is this is going to take some time in order to get it.
But ultimately it's going to be worth it, but it's just like you said, it just takes time.
Fredrik 40:39
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you have to just allow yourself to accept that it's going to take time.
And also eventually you're going to be able to love that fact too.
You're going to be able to love the fact that it's going to take time and I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna treasure every single moment of it because it's I get to do something that I really love in it.
Fredrik 40:44
And and and I you must really understand that too with the woodworking, I guess, that's
Kyle 41:09
That was that was the exact example that came to mind when you said that because when I first got into woodworking.
You know, it was 1 of those things that I thought would be a lot faster than it actually was.
And then to get in and just spend hours and hours doing what seemingly were very, very simple things.
I was just like, Am I doing this wrong?
And how is this taking so much time?
Kyle 41:41
And then you realize that that's part of the process.
It's you know, part of the joy of it is that it takes time and it's not it's not a shortcut thing where you just you make a couple cuts or do a couple things that's part of the joy of it is the the process and the time that you take doing it.
And and not rushing it and not, you know, taking a whole bunch of shortcuts in order to get to the end.
But the the joy of the finished product is a lot of times the time that it takes to get there.
Fredrik 42:15
Yeah, you look at it and you're really proud of yourself that you that you allowed yourself to take the time and allowed yourself to let it become something really great because sometimes I feel early in my career where I did things.
I was never happy with end result because I always thought, oh, this is not good.
I could do it better.
But when you really sit down and you really take the time and you're going to end up much more happier with end result and you're going to feel a lot more prouder and lot more confident in your work too.
Kyle 42:22
Exactly.
Yeah.
I totally agree.
I absolutely love that.
Well, Frederick, this been a really, really great conversation.
Kyle 42:23
I I have -- Yeah.
Kyle 42:23
--
Kyle 42:34
2 wrap up questions.
But before we get to that, Where can people find out more about you, about the things that you're working on, and anything else?
Fredrik 42:54
Well, my Instagram is not very up to date or active.
But you can find me on LinkedIn.
Feel free to add me and I'll happy to to talk Anything copy, anything movie, just hit me up there.
We I'm I'm always happy to have conversation with new people and getting to learn new ways of writing and new ways to express yourself.
Kyle 43:07
Okay.
Awesome.
Well, we'll put that link in the show notes as well.
Okay.
Well, we we usually end with, you know, just a couple questions around, you know, any shout outs or recommendations that you might have.
Kyle 43:17
And I'm in this 1 because you mentioned movies.
So anything that you've read or watched in particular that you have enjoyed or want to recommend.
Fredrik 44:00
Movie Oscars is coming up soon.
So if you haven't watched all If you haven't watched all the best film nominees and if you should watch 1, I would definitely recommend everything everywhere all at once.
It's a magnificent way of storytelling and it touched me on so many points that I had to go see it 3 times in cinema actually might be going again this weekend, but it's just amazing how the Daniels wrote that movie that yeah, it has so many genres in it and it's really exciting, it's fun and you'll laugh and you'll cry throughout the whole movie.
So big recommendation if you haven't seen yet.
Kyle 44:16
Absolutely agree.
Really, really good movie.
I was it had been talked about before I had seen it, had been talked about a lot and did not disappoint, which I I always worry about when movies have been talked about frequently before I see them?
Stay.
Definitely definitely worth seeing.
Kyle 44:36
It it was really good.
K.
And then finally, any any products that you have been using and enjoying or not enjoying could be a digital product or physical product that that you've used recently or use frequently that you want to give a shout out to or an anti shout out to.
Fredrik 45:00
I mean, it would be weird if I didn't mention chat, GPT.
Right?
Yeah.
I I I've used ChapGP a bit and I think it's a great way to get you started.
I don't think it's a great thing to use for a final product, but I use it sometimes in a way to get a thought starter.
Fredrik 45:23
And it's a really way to start your wheels turning in your head and start thinking about things.
So yeah, I think it's a great tool.
It's really interesting and fascinating tool.
And I'm ready to see because it's at this worst right now.
It's just gonna become better and better and I'm interesting to see where it goes and if I'll lose my job for it.
Kyle 45:38
Yeah.
Hopefully.
I'm super interest Yeah.
Super interested in seeing where it goes as well.
And I've used been using it a lot in a very similar way to to you know, either kick off writing or take ideas and reframe them.
Kyle 46:19
And then I'm I don't feel like I'm ever satisfied with what comes out of it.
But it always gives me like another place where I can take it and then either, you know, take some of the ideas and then rewrite them or reframe them in a in a different way.
But I think it's it's great from, like you said, a starting off point to say, you know, give me some information or take all of this and, you know, condense it down in some way.
And then I can take that and reframe it or or take it as like a starting point and reuse it in in some way.
So I I enjoy that for a lot of different purposes.
Kyle 46:28
And so, yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
It'll be interesting to see as it continues to get better and better and what are going to be more and more applications of it.
Fredrik 46:30
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Fredrik 46:31
I agree with you.
Kyle 46:50
Awesome.
Well, Frederick, this has been a great conversation again.
Love the insights, especially around a topic that don't think we talk about enough, which is the copywriting and storytelling.
So this has been really, really great.
And really appreciate the time and insight that you've shared.
Fredrik 46:57
Yeah, thank you so much, Carol, for having me.
It was, yeah, really fun, exciting conversations, and yeah, thank you so much.
Kyle 47:06
Yeah.
Thank you.
And thank you everybody for listening.
We will talk again next time.
Thanks again for listening.
Kyle 47:39
If you like the show, be sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast app You can follow the show on Twitter at prod by design.
That's prod underscore by underscore design.
You can follow me at pylori edits on Twitter as well.
If you want more product conversation, check out my news that are product thinking at product thinking dot c c You can follow me on medium at kya larry Evans as well, or check out my medium publication.
Product by design.
Kyle 47:39
Thanks again.