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Tomorrow can be different from today.
Our lives often leave us feeling hopeless—like nothing will ever change. But perspective is everything. When you know where to look, hope can be found in the spaces and places you least expect.
Join Jason Gore (Lead Pastor of Hope Community Church) for a fresh perspective, practical steps, and weekly encouragement that hope really is possible… even in real life.
that the reason they were toppling is because they had never had to face resistance That the wind is actually necessary Oh wow For the health of a tree because it's against the blowing of the wind that the roots have to dig in That's good Welcome to the Hope in Real Life podcast with Jason Gore Our team is passionate and committed to bringing you more hope in the everyday real areas of your life If this conversation and content is valuable for you please do us a favor Like subscribe and even share You never know how valuable it could be to share a little bit of hope with someone else Let's get the conversation
started Well welcome to season 2 Hope in Real Life podcast Thank you all for tuning in We are here this week with pastor speaker author former NFL player college all-American and as we heard in a previous episode this season botanical garden walker Leon Scrub Jr Leance how you doing this morning you're never going to let that go are you never going to let it go Not going to let it go We are here this week to talk about a topic that uh is very near and dear to my heart I know it's near and dear to your heart as two men who really want to see the world become a better place We want to see lives changed We want to see people experience the life that we believe that God's created them to experience regardless of what our listeners believe How that fits in That's what we're after And it's the topic is this How to be resilient in a chaotic world My my Yeah And so Laos is here with us this week He's actually written a book called The Resilience Factor And so uh man I just would love to start right out of the gate What does resilience mean to you yeah resilience uh to me to quote the great Mike Tyson That's right I know right where this is going Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face And uh and I think there is something incredibly poignant in that statement He probably didn't know that as he was saying it but no he's a theologian He a theo and a philosopher A philosopher That's right Uh but but there is something to that idea that we all think we have the way to go until we hit rough terrain until we hit difficulty And so the way I would define resilience is the ability to keep going uh against obstacle against trial against tragedy against difficulty to keep moving forward Or another way to say that is the capacity to get up and keep moving after you've been knocked down That's right And and I I would even now I didn't write the book Uh but I I would even add on that like the ability to come back stronger That's exactly right Before So it's not hey we're not enduring There's a difference in in enduring something versus being resilient through something because when something happens when you've gone through some difficult times and then you come out on the other side strong wait a minute I'm a better man I'm a better woman I know how to handle this Um it's interesting that you started out by saying that though Everybody has a plan till they get punched in the mouth or you you said in the face but but punched in the mouth Punched in the face Is it me i mean it seems like the world right now is throwing punches at us Well the world has always been throwing punches Yeah I I think the difference is uh the the frequency with which they come uh um the the ability of uh Joe from uh Jackson Hole Wyoming to get on Twitter and and yell at a celebrity or you know or public official Um the the access that we have to information it has just increased the ability uh for individual actors and groups of people to create chaos in all types of ways which requires us to be more resilient And I love the the way you rounded that out It is the ability to come back stronger and we did cover that in the book by the way Um but it's the ability to to get hit to get up and and you have taken the collective learning from that and it is actually we're good We had a little lighting change in the everything's all good Yeah we're good Yeah I thought Jesus was coming back Um I was like I'm ready No trumpet though I'm red I heard it inside Okay You didn't hear it i didn't hear the I'm in trouble That's in trouble I need some resilience We got to call Nick Cage
Oh my goodness Where y'all want to pick it up from that's No I think we're good We just keep rolling Yeah Oh I listen I don't know what kind of situation this is Yeah we're good to go You know I'm usually on you know we're going to be resilient I'm usually on NPR type nonsense Not the NPR today on this episode of Hope in Real Life No Uh but but that ability to get up and and to have taken the collective learnings from that loss right nelson Mandela said this um he said "I've never lost I've only won or learned." Right um that to me again is a part of the essence of actually having resilience And I think resilience can be cultivated Yeah It's not something you're born with It it's not something that is reserved for special human beings or former Navy Seals or all-American wrestlers It's something that can be cultivated over time with intentionality Right That should and that should be comforting I think to the to the listening world at the moment You're going through a difficult time like this is something that can be developed You've got to want to develop it That's right You got to be willing to go through the fire But but it is something that can be developed Uh I think it's important for our audience to kind of connect with you a little bit on this and not because I know a bit about your life right we know each other Um for those of you that maybe you've heard the story but there was a couple months ago you were in town two three months ago in town and we spent some time in an office Just we just said you know if we're going to be working together more if we're going to be spending more time together we should just get to know each other more and talk about our stories I think it was maybe 30 minutes before both of us were probably in tears talking about things We 30 minutes Okay 30 minutes You were crying in 7 minutes It was beautiful Oh my gosh It was beautiful Okay Well we've got a clip of you that we're going to play right now going through flower garden So we're going to play that and we're It was incredible But let's do this because I know you you could pick one You got a laundry list but just talk about a time where you experienced a difficult time in your life and you had to work through that and maybe just share bit of that with our listeners Yeah Um I mean I can say this quite candidly Uh 2019 to 2022 were the hardest years of my adult life And I questioned everything I questioned my calling I questioned whether I was supposed to stay in ministry I questioned um uh what I had done with my life for the previous 10 years and and if I was in the right place doing the right thing And and it was because there was a series of uh of incredible challenges and difficulties and traumas You know in 2019 um uh a couple of my elders and one of my associate pastors uh decided to try and and uh basically upend my leadership and and the leadership of some of the other elders and pastors And um it caused uh terrible trauma in our church Um I wouldn't call it a church split but but definitely a church splinter You know there were a bunch of people that scattered just because they were hurt They they weren't even mad at a particular side They're just like I don't want to be a part of the drama And so we navigated that in 2019 rolled right into the pandemic in 2020 Um and leading a church you can't see uh is incredibly challenging Um and because we were in the city of Atlanta uh you know I don't know if you guys followed this on the news but our governor and our mayor were fighting every day right uh the governor was like "Go back to church and do your thing." And the mayor was like "If I catch more than five people in that building I'm going to shut you down forever." And so we were caught in this limbo where we didn't gather for 14 months Wow 14 months So I didn't even know if we would have a church um you know on the other side of that Uh and then in the midst of that my younger brother was fighting cancer And uh all through 2019 while I was on this legitimate battlefront in in our church my brother's fighting cancer and I couldn't be there for him the way that I wanted to be when I look back in hindsight because um you know I couldn't know then that that he was going to end his fight with cancer um you know a few years later uh which was in September of 2021 And so um these last few years have been one hit after another And if I mean I can say this without any any reservation or compunction If if I hadn't had a life some of the things we shared when we were together uh of having to find a way to regroup and recalibrate uh on the other side of tragedy and move forward stronger than I was if if if I hadn't taken the time to cultivate that through academics through sports through family drama which we don't even have time like I think that's where the tears started That's right That's right um uh if I didn't have those faculties I don't know that I would still be standing And and you know again we're Christians I I do believe that the spirit of God in me um has been kind of that X factor right but but just from the sheer standpoint of emotional mental and physical wellness if I didn't have those other things to kind of build this resilience into me over time man there's no way that that I not only survive but but thrive on the other side of that And that and that's the word It's not and you know endurance is survival We don't want to survive Resilience is thriving right on the other side of it and and integrating the pain into the person that you're becoming And uh and I feel like that's a lot of what 2023 has been is is a a period of integration And those are the cycles we go through We go through pain we go through trauma we either repress it or we integrate it or or we expel it and take it out on other people Um and I feel like this year has been the integration process of you know how am I doing not being able to call my brother every day how am I doing um knowing um that the men who did what they did have you know started a new church and continue to try and spread rumors How am I doing um recovering from 14 months of of uh not being able to gather with our church and wondering if we're going to make it after we had just bought our largest building ever By the way two months before the shutdown we bought 12 and a half acres and 100,000 square feet Yeah Um yeah Talk about asking some questions man That's tough Yeah So so that's it man That's that's uh And for people that don't know I mean you you don't uh despite what some people might think you don't start a church or step into the role of pastor uh for fame or for fortune for other people That's not that's not you know for the sake of being lift up That's not why you Oh there are better things to do There are there is a lot better things and we can we can have a whole podcast on that We you do that because you actually care about the mission you care about it And so when you give your heart and your soul to something and then the thought of there might be another man or group of men or some other people that are trying to strip that thing away from you and then there's outside circumstances that then play in man the questions uh and the resilience that it takes to be able to push through that And as a guy who knows you I applaud you for for the focus that that took because I know um that could have been easy to just take a step back and say "Man there are easier things that I can give my time to and give my energy to and quite honestly would hurt a lot less." Well and there were things on the table Yeah You know I had multiple job offers through 2019 and and multiple opportunities to just bail Um but when I looked at kind of the the cultural ethos of of bailing out when when it gets hard I did I didn't want to replicate that pattern and and honestly in a lot of ways there there are things in me that just wouldn't allow it right you know and uh um even though the thoughts circulated through my mind we are going to take a brief break from our show to let you know about a resource that we are making available to you If you're looking for a resource on personal development or spiritual enrichment then you've got to check this out It's a free tool Now free to our listeners Wasn't it was not free for us to create but free for our listeners made specifically for anyone who's looking for a bit more hope in their everyday life Listen to the features daily devotions parenting tips financial resources marriage insights There's even a community where you can share prayer requests if you've got things going on in your life and you can see and know that other people are praying for you This is going to be available in early January We'll make sure everybody knows Stay tuned Keep looking for it We'll have it out But listen tomorrow can be better than today and hope is possible even in real life Let's get back to the show Yeah And we might come back to that that little thing that we get in our head sometimes that won't let us do that But but I want I want to do this because some some folks might be listening and and I we talked about this before the show but I kind of have a um I'd be lying if I didn't say had an agenda with I didn't have an agenda with this topic Passionate agenda Yeah that's exactly right Because I do believe the world like you said it's always been throwing punches but it seems like right now they're just coming faster and faster and faster and harder and harder and harder And I want to be careful how I say this Um but may maybe it's circumstantial Well maybe CO had a big impact on this but it doesn't seem like the majority of the population is as good at taking those shots and wanting to come back stronger And um and so but but I desperately believe that the world um that there is more hope out there than what we realize right now Yeah And so I think we've probably got some listeners even if they're not going through something right now Maybe they've got kids maybe they've got young kids and um we don't always get to choose the battles right sometimes the battles choose us and that develops resilience if we push through it the right way But what are some things that that that parents can take and I'm actually going somewhere with this so if we don't land the plane in the right spot maybe I'll come back to it But what are some things some parents can do what are some environments some parents can create for their kids that would actually help them develop resilience in their lives yeah No I know exactly where you're going and and I think that is a great direction to go The only thing I would say before I jump into that is to anyone who's listening life only comes in three stages You're either entering a trial in the middle of a trial or exiting a trial Exactly Right So if you're not going through something right now you will be buckle up You know you will be It's it's coming Um and putting your head in the sand and hoping that it passes is is not the way to do it Um and and so I I think teaching our children that at an early age comes uh with intentionality Uh a couple of things that I've done personally uh is create environments of challenge for them and environments of difficulty You know we're we're kind of in a in a moment right now with our son Um he told me he wanted to wrestle You and I both know that Um there is no no glitz no glamour That's right No money right no money No money Maybe a college education That's right Maybe you get your college paid for Um and and so but there's easier ways to get your college paid for There you go It is a hard sport And uh he did it one year He said he kind of liked it but he didn't know He came back this year Well it turns out he's been you know quietly telling my wife that he doesn't want to wrestle He's he's just been doing it because dad did it And I had a moment where I had to decide if I was going to let him pull the rip cord uh or make him finish out the season right even though he doesn't want to do it He hates it And now he hadn't told me this right but I can see it on him He hates it And and I don't blame him you know if if I wasn't if I wasn't certifiable I would probably hate it too right um but he's going to finish the season Yeah We don't let our kids quit things in the middle So that's one way to build resilience We don't let them quit in the middle You can quit at the end Yeah Or you cannot start right but you're not going to bail in the middle That's good Um and and it hasn't always been received well You know anybody who's tried to race teenage girls Um that's me Oh Jesus help Jesus Um but you know our She's great I know she listens I love you I love you He loves you I do love you You and mom are special together though I tell you that and and my girls uh you probably won't listen but if you ever do I love you too And you're also the source of all of the white hair in my chin Um but we had to make our oldest she tried to quit in the middle of the track season last year We're like "No you're going to finish." Now if you don't want to run track after this that's fine but you're not going to quit on yourself and you're not going to quit on your team in the middle That's one way that we build resilience We don't just give our kids things Right Right They have to earn things Um it you know every year Christmas time however many new toys you think you want that's how many old toys are going away you know and and we're in that we're not only teaching them about uh loss and and processing letting go but we're also teaching them generosity because they're taking those lightly used toys and they're giving them to kids who may or may not have a Christmas at all Um but those are a few of the things man Keep going down the line You know I I made my kids start cleaning up after themselves when they were five Even though I knew they would do a terrible job I'm like you still have to clean up after them cleaning up after That's exactly right But the lesson is if you make a mess you clean it Yeah So get down and and get this rice off the floor You know all of that even though they don't understand it you know it's meyakiing them into you know resilience You don't understand that reference karate kid Wax on wax off He was mad You're never going to teach me karate Damn your son Wax on And then he knew He knew he had karate Oh it was beautiful Sandlaw [Music] It was so great And all of a sudden he's like "Oh I know karate." Like "Yeah dummy I've been teaching you the whole time." Right So a lot of this is meyaging them Yeah Into what I hope you know will become a resilience Now um parenting is a stewardship right like we're just stewarding what ultimately belongs to God Um and so I'm trying to be the best steward I can and all I can do is is hope that the results are what we're putting in Yeah I I can say and it's you know I'm not the guest on this episode so we're not going to get into this but I can went through some some some challenging times in leadership roles in between 2020 2022 in that way Yes So but I can honestly say man the the wrestling for me um was one of the things going through life Now I didn't realize it that I had actually gone through some challenging times and some trauma that probably is what led to me being able to thrive in the wrestling environment You mentioned being certifiable I probably fit in that category So but I wasn't old enough to realize it at that point Yeah But man if it weren't for those lessons um if it weren't for understanding hey it's not about the glory in the moment It's about hey you're not where you want to be So you got to put in the work You got to keep grinding You got to keep pushing through you got to find a way They they got me to that place We said with our kids um and by the way this is not a prescription okay uh this is not a prescription This is descriptive of what we did So I'm not telling you this is what every parent should do And I hope you would follow the path Go ahead We told our kids um that you can play any sport that you want um at any season uh except for the winter Uh you must wrestle until you get to high school Yeah And so we told our kids you have to and that's just because of the lessons that you learn It's a there's no other sport where you have to go out and it's just you and another person There's nowhere to hide There's no one else to blame And uh if you don't want to win you don't have to win Okay But but you do have to learn what it's like to go out knowing because in life you're going to get in situations that are going to come after you whether you want them to or not That's exactly right And so you might not want to go after that person but I don't want to go after every challenge that faces me in my life And so we just said "Hey this is what we're gonna do We're gonna make it fun." Yeah You know you're going to experience some rewards We're going to travel to get a little bit as a family We're going to go around We're going to enjoy it Um now and to that that we don't make them wrestle year round We make them cut weight They'll you know my my oldest two you know they've got head seasons where they had goals they wanted to set and they wanted to cut weight My daughter probably loves wrestling more than anybody else in the family So my oldest two are twins They're freshman in high school this year And so they still love the sport They're going to be wrestling And my youngest still loves it So for us it's worked out really well I believe I've seen a tremendous amount of determination uh and grit through them both in school and whether they're you know maybe when my daughter is arguing back with my wife same thing So you see grit and tremendous So so I I think sports I think you can learn a tremendous amount through sports Get get a good coach if you have the right coach and you allow your kids to participate and follow that coach wherever they will take them if they'll invest in them the right way and call them into bigger things Well and that's what makes wrestling special and why I wanted to put them into it because you're right Uh you know when you play football which I did that too I can blame the offensive coordinator I can blame the play calling that day you know the line wasn't blocking Colorado Um you know there there's a bunch of different threads you can pull Yeah But when it's just you person to person it's just you and that really is what so much and and and again this is descriptive Uh me and Jason are not telling everyone to put their kids in wrestling Um but like is this a podcast on wrestling or resilience tricks you Um but but what I will say resolutely is if not wrestling something that you believe will teach them grit y will give them the capacity to grow against challenge um and prepare them for their future You know I heard this interesting study Um I I have all kind of weird facts You know Chick-fil-A That's right Uh and ice cream chicken Um but they grew these trees in a dome Okay You can look this up They grew these trees in a dome Who's they uh this group of scientists Not Chick-fil-A though Not Chick-fil-A Okay No No Although they might have you know they're trying to take over the world But um the long story short is the trees would get to a certain size and height like a a mature tree and it would just fall down And they couldn't explain it They're like "Why do these trees keep falling down once they pop up we're giving them enough sun We're giving them enough light We're giving them enough water They have all the ingredients they need that they should grow up and flourish." Well it turns out that the reason they were toppling is because they had never had to face resistance That the wind is actually necessary Oh wow For the health of a tree because it's against the blowing of the wind that the roots have to dig in That's good To not blow over Yeah And when they didn't have the trial of the wind when they didn't have the force of the wind blowing against them they still sprouted up as you would think they would Yeah But as soon as they got big enough they just fell over Yeah Right And and I I see so much semblance in that in not only ourselves but our children and and our culture you know we we are we are growing trees in a dome and then wondering why they're falling over That's good You know that's good We I say regularly in leadership let let me serve along somebody Let me work alongside of somebody that's got a little bit of a limp Yeah Let me I want to be alongside if I'm in the trenches I wanted to be with somebody that's gone through some stuff Yeah that makes who had to put their roots down That's right You know so that they didn't topple when the wind blew And uh yeah so I I I've always found that a fascinating analogy Uh our team when they were talking through this topic one of the uh thoughts that they came up with was comparing this idea of resilience uh with with a potential a antonyym of complacency And when we were talking through that you said I don't know if complacency is the best antonym I don't know if it's the best opposite What would you say is is the the best opposite for resilience yeah it's fragility I mean complacency is an issue but to be complacent um means that you're unmotivated and usually immovable right so if you're unmotivated and immovable the chances that you'll face a trial are pretty minimalistic So the the antonyym that I see to to resilience is fragility and and it is the continual and evidenced um practice of just kind of falling apart when things get hard you know and and we see it in sport we see it in government we see it in business uh we see it in relationships That's why the divorce rate is what it is right because things get hard and people fall apart rather rather than getting together together to do the work of repairing that relationship And and so I I really kind of see a culture of fragility and and this is not a political statement Um I don't ride the donkey or the elephant I roll with the lamb Okay you like that i like that pastor joke of the day Um but at the end of the day there is a culture of fragility that uh started with the generation born to the boomers you know when we first started getting ribbons for everything that started with us right you you know we're we're late Gen Xers and and I'll never forget we I was a kid I was a running back and we lost the game and we still got trophies and went out for pizza and I asked my dad "Why did we get a trophy?" And he said "I was asking myself the same thing son." That's the kind of dad I had you know But but truly I'm like why do we get a trophy for losing there there are no participation awards in life And and for that reason it has ingrained a certain level of fragility into our host culture ethos And when things get hard people fall apart Yeah And so I would ask you this and and I we're the truth is this this podcast this episode is probably going to go a little bit longer than some of the others uh probably because it's something near and dear to both mine and your heart And so uh that that's okay People can listen to it on the way to work and on the way home But if um so say we've got a listener right now we've talked about resilience We've talked about some ways that you can build resilience with your kids Um what if somebody's right in the middle of something like right now this difficult and and they would say man what am I supposed to do right now to not want to give up what am I supposed to do to have the energy to have the fight to be able to push through and as we said earlier to even come through better on the other side what do I need to do yeah Number one remind yourself of the why That's good Why are you in this you know for me um my why that kept me in the church was I want to see people's lives fundamentally changed by the good news of the gospel I believe it And and I believe when people encounter Jesus their life is changed forever That's my why And if I can hold on to that why then it will help to pull me through Um the second thing I would say is is a period of recalibration right you need to step back and and ask the question how did I get here how did I get here um and do I see some steps toward daylight right the third thing I would say is um getting the wisdom or advice of a trusted mentor or another leader What would you do in this situation here here's what I'm facing Everything in me tells me I want to give up but I'm fighting to move forward Have you seen this before and how did you handle it what did you do the fourth thing I would say is uh particularly for you Christians out there and and it really should be the first thing is to pray Ask ask the Lord um to give you strength that you don't have and he will the Bible literally says he will supply every need right so ask him for I mean I had to do that dude Listen there were days um in 2019 where I just laid on the floor in my office face down crying out to the Lord saying "Please end this Get me out of here or get them out of here but please end this." I had to cry out to the Lord And every time not only would he give me renewed strength right doesn't the psalmist tell us that that he he'll renew our strength like the eagles Right Even the youths grow tired and faint but those that wait on the Lord he will renew their strength Every time I would come out of one of those seasons of prayer not only would I have renewed strength but I'd have new ideas new focus new new clarity Uh to the point where you know in the middle of this conflict we're still trying to just have church Yeah And one of these guys grabs me in between services and he's like "Hey I need to talk to you." And I said "Yeah no." And uh he's like "What do you mean no?" I said "My focus is them They're my priority The people in that room um you are not my priority today You can schedule a meeting like everybody else." Right where in the preceding weeks I was trying to have every meeting I could because I was trying to do damage control and put out all the fires So that was a strength that came out of prayer you know And and then the last thing I would say and and I really do believe in this is every leader needs a counselor and a coach Um you need a counselor to help you process your emotions and your traumas um and your own blind spots and issues Um and you need a coach uh to give you perspective on your leadership decisions and challenges Um if you're stuck right now if you'll do those five things um I really do believe you'll not only get unstuck but you will have energy to move forward in whatever you're facing right now And one thing I think that's common through all of those is you wouldn't do this if you didn't believe that there was something better on the other side And that's the why That that's the why It goes right back to the beginning And and you you mentioned scripture earlier but James says "We consider it joy when we face trials because we know there's something in us that's being developed There is a purpose for the pain There's a reason why we're going through If we can believe that we can grab hold of it That's going to give us some gas to be able to work through these things." Uh Lance wrapping it up Where can we find your book where can we find the resilience factor the resilience factor Uh you can find it anywhere books are sold Amazon.com is a great place but also Barnes & Noble and any other bookstore And I will ask um that if you get it and if you like it which you will because it is really good um please leave us a review on Amazon Uh that helps us with the algorithm because algorithms run our lives now They do They do Uh greatly appreciate your time being here with as always Uh one of these days uh maybe we'll get to live life in the same city Who knows we'll see how how that works out I just go and say it here people here online So grateful to spend time with you talking about resilience Thank you for modeling that for us Thank you for investing in that Uh for all of our listeners love spending time with you Thank you all for tuning in this week If this is valuable if you know somebody that in your life is going through a difficult time please share this episode with them Point them to the resilience factor Great resource Love you guys Looking forward to seeing you on the next episode Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Hope in Real Life podcast If this content was valuable for you don't forget like subscribe share You never know how important it could be to bring a little hope into someone else's life Uh there's even a place here for you to comment We would love to hear from you and hear your feedback Until next time let's keep sharing hope