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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:01)
Welcome to Messy Liberation. Let's get started.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:06)
Hi.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:06)
Hello?
We're actually here today to talk about our unlearning and relearning journeys. And what does that mean?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:12)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:12)
It's the discovery that we live inside of a system that is
Taina Brown she/hers (00:16)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:17)
systemically and systematically oppressing people that has hierarchies within it's a white supremacy capitalist
Taina Brown she/hers (00:23)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:24)
patriarchy, right? Just even discovering that, because for somebody with more privilege, that can actually mean like discovery. For our people who
Taina Brown she/hers (00:30)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:31)
maybe always know there's something, it's putting words to what they've always known inside of their experience.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:35)
See ya.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:36)
And then the unlearning of the stuff that we are holding inside where we're actually
like recreating or propping up that
system. And then the relearning
Taina Brown she/hers (00:45)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:46)
of what does it mean to actively reject and try to rebuild something different. So that's kind of
Taina Brown she/hers (00:51)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:51)
what I mean in that big overarching conversation of unlearning and relearning. So I thought we could maybe just do our little like origin stories or our own little bit of a journey of
Taina Brown she/hers (01:00)
Our villain origin story.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:02)
Well, if two the villains to white supremacist patriarchy, yes.
our journeys look very different. One, because we hold different identities that make our relationships with these systems different. And also,
Taina Brown she/hers (01:07)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:13)
you have the additional layer of religion that I don't bring into this experience,
Taina Brown she/hers (01:18)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:18)
which definitely adds a whole additional heavy systemic
Taina Brown she/hers (01:21)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:22)
layer to your story. we've heard parts of each other's stuff, but I don't know how much we've fully gone into
Taina Brown she/hers (01:24)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:26)
it.
Tell me yours.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:26)
Just put me on the spot. I think for me, and I've mentioned this before, but the tipping point was when I lost my job at the church, I got fired, which when I told people that
they were like, you can get fired from a church and I'm like, yeah, it's a job like any other job.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:44)
the church is a business like any other
business in many, many ways.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:46)
It is, it is,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:48)
what was your age ish
at that time?
Taina Brown she/hers (01:49)
I was
like 30, 31. mean, churches operate as nonprofits, So when you think about how nonprofits are staffed and just work environments, it's the same. It's no different just because it's within the building that houses spiritual activity doesn't mean that people still don't act like shit when they have the opportunity to. So yeah, so I got...
for my job which didn't pay well. Looking back I'm like damn they were really fucking taking advantage. And because of some interpersonal issues with someone who used to be a friend and was no longer a friend after that. And then I just decided to go back to school and I somehow found myself at a women's college like a private liberal arts women college. Women's college that literally I had never heard of until like
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:39)
How did you apply
I mean, you don't just find yourself there. You had to have at least applied there. What made you even Yeah, what made you apply
Taina Brown she/hers (02:43)
Well yeah, I did apply, I did apply, but so...
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:46)
there? Because I would think that that background because you weren't just working at a church, you grew up in in religion, right? Like in the sort of Christian it would it be fair to say fundamentalist kind of Christian? Okay, evangelical. Okay. Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:53)
Yeah, evangelical for sure. I wouldn't go as far as calling it fundamentalist, but definitely
evangelical. So there was a big emphasis on preaching the gospel, converting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:06)
Right. Trying to bring people into your evangelizing and right. So you
grew up in that, then went into that like thinking this is these are my people, this is my world and right.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:15)
These are my people. this
like, I just saw myself in that space forever.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:22)
Mm-hmm. Can
I ask before we go to the college part? Because that's where things started to change, but before that,
Taina Brown she/hers (03:26)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:27)
obviously, you know, you grew up as a woman of color in a country that is based on and built on
white supremacy. We now
Taina Brown she/hers (03:33)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:34)
know that you are, I don't know if you call yourself bi or pansexual, but you have a
Taina Brown she/hers (03:39)
and
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:40)
pansexual and
Taina Brown she/hers (03:42)
I too love bread.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:43)
and I mean, who doesn't? you like to masticate. Anyway.
So you have these identities. One, which you you obviously could just see in the mirror, you knew that you had you were a person of color inside of a white supremac,
Taina Brown she/hers (03:52)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:55)
you may not have understood white supremacy, but you knew that you
Taina Brown she/hers (03:58)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:58)
were in a white dominant society with person of color.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:00)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:02)
The I the sexual identity piece may have come later. You may not have had that realization
Taina Brown she/hers (04:05)
Bye bye.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:06)
yet. So up before college. But before college, just what was your understanding? Like what language did you have of your understanding of systemic oppression? Did you
Think of yourself as somebody who held identities that were historically oppressed. Like, what kind of knowledge did you have going up before college? 'Cause I kinda wanna get a picture of
Taina Brown she/hers (04:23)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:24)
where are we starting before this unlearning? Was
Taina Brown she/hers (04:26)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:26)
it like the same amount as everybody of like, well, I mean I studied slavery in school, but I didn't really,
Taina Brown she/hers (04:32)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:32)
you know.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:33)
Yeah. Yeah. I didn't think racism was a thing. Like, I didn't think it was still a thing. Like, I knew historically it had been a thing, but I didn't think it was still a thing. Even though looking back, there were clear instances where I was being treated differently because of my race, because of my gender, because of the size of my body, right? Like, I can look back and just pinpoint moments where I was like, yeah, that was...
That was racist, right? but... Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:58)
So for sure now, upon reflection, but in that time
you were like sort of a this we're post racial concept. But yeah, okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:05)
Post-racial, post-gender
discrimination. One of the things of the church that I was a part of at that time that I was embedded in, I will say that, because that's what it was. I was embedded. For like 10 years was one of their points of pride was that they had over 90 nations represented in their congregation.
But
again, and I mentioned this last week, in last week's episode, but like the majority of the leadership was still, like the higher up leadership was still white. And so when you look at like the staff, a lot of the help staff, right, were women, women of color, whereas a lot of like the people making decisions were white, mostly white men. And I went through like a ministry training program through that church.
and was an admin assistant for like five years. Meanwhile, like white men who were younger than me, who had less experience than me, were getting like promoted into positions of leadership, were coming in out of the blue and getting like positions of leadership. So it mimicked that like capitalist corporate type of structure that people complained
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (06:18)
But
Taina Brown she/hers (06:19)
about a lot.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (06:20)
and I know you don't have language for it, at the time though, did you think something about this doesn't seem right? Or did you internalize it in the way that we often do, which is I must be doing something wrong, and that's what's explaining why these men are leapfrogging ahead of me? Both. Okay. All right.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:33)
Yeah, both, both, right? So there
was, there was that, and that was a cognitive dissonance, right? So there was a part of me that was like, well, maybe if I did this different, or maybe if I lost weight, or maybe if I didn't like speak my mind too much, or, you know, like maybe if I was like that
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (06:49)
Totally.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:49)
biblical Proverbs 31 women, right? Like maybe that will help me, you know, do something else or like make more, not make more money, but like have more like leadership.
experience available to me. But then there was also like that little voice in the back of my head that was like, but I'm doing all the things they're asking me to do. And still, like, so I'm not like I couldn't, I couldn't fill in the gap. I didn't have the
language to fill in the gap because I had been.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (07:15)
Right. Exactly. And
I I just wanted to like shine a little bit of a spotlight before you continue on that, just because I think sometimes people in an effort to maintain the status quo will point to things like, Well, I have, you know, the good old my Black friend, my Black friend voted for Trump, or, you know, my
Taina Brown she/hers (07:32)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (07:33)
my woman friend likes Trump or whatever the thing is, they will point to these particular use cases, as it were, like these very specific incidents.
Instead of looking at the overall data. And I would just say, just because someone holds a particular identity doesn't mean that they don't have the internalized belief systems
Taina Brown she/hers (07:48)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (07:48)
about that identity. So because it would be easier to say, I think people might be surprised, like my journey actually looks probably in some ways like I was ahead of you age-wise
Taina Brown she/hers (07:57)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (07:58)
in some of these things, even though I don't have that added identity around race because just because of my upbringing and being outside of the church
Taina Brown she/hers (08:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (08:05)
and other things. So I just think that's really interesting to kind of shine a light on for people that.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:09)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (08:10)
Just because you are a woman doesn't mean you're not gonna be sexist. Just because you are Black doesn't mean you won't be racist, right? Like these things and I don't
Taina Brown she/hers (08:13)
Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (08:17)
use racist meaning racist against white people. I mean have the internalized belief systems of racism. So anyway.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:22)
Yeah, no,
and listen, I will give you clear examples of times when I had internalized that, right? Like the fat phobia of myself, right? Like, I need to lose weight in order to be given more leadership opportunities. The racism, right? Where one of the things that was said a lot in the church that I myself had said and agreed with and would say to other people was like,
Well, you if you're coming to this country, you're coming to this church, like you should really assimilate. You should learn English. Like you should let go of like your cultural identity because we have our own culture in Christ. Right. Just the homophobia. Right. Like there were instances where I have said and did things that were like toxic and homophobic and transphobic. Right. Because I at the time, I didn't know any better.
And I will say that like I did have opportunities to lead and the people that I did lead always were happy with my leadership, but those opportunities were on a volunteer basis. I was never given a public facing, like a real public facing like leadership opportunity. It was always like, you can be a small group leader or you can be a small group coach.
or you can do this, or you can lead a missions trip, but you have to pay for it yourself, even though you work for the church. And this white dude who also works for the church is leading a missions trip and we're gonna pay for his missions trip, but you have to pay for your own. And so, yeah, so I did have opportunities, but at a cost to myself, right? Whether it was time or money. So yeah, so I got fired. Right before I got fired, I became friends with,
another woman in the church and I wouldn't say looking back it was very toxic looking back it you know when you it had to be pheromones like it just had to be pheromones like there's no other way to describe it because I don't believe in love at first sight I don't I don't believe in like that kind of thing but there was just like this instant attraction that I couldn't make sense of and it's the way that some people talk about like their first
same-sex crush when they're kids where it's like I just wanted to be around them all the time and I just wanted to be their friend and you know wanted to do all these things and so so like we developed this friendship but obviously for me it was different I don't know what it was like for her like we're not we're not friends anymore now just because again it turned very toxic and we ended up not our friendship ended up not surviving but that was like maybe six months before I got fired
And we talked every day for like hours and I just had such intense feelings and towards the end, like right before I got fired, I just remember finally like having this honest conversation with myself and just being like, do I like her? Like like her, like her. And I was like, but I'm not gay. Like I knew I wasn't gay, right? And so then...
my brain was like, no, that's not it. It's just, you know, we're just, you know, we just get along really well. We have a lot in common, blah, blah, whatever, like making excuses. So fast forward, she's the one who actually introduced me to this private women's liberal arts college that I had never heard of before, just outside of Atlanta. And I had actually planned on moving back, like moving in with my mom.
and she was living in North Carolina at the time and I was going to apply to go to finish school there. And then this friend, I'll just call her Samantha, she was like, have you heard of Agnes Scott? And I was like, what is that? And she was like, it's this school, it's not far from where you live. Her sister was going to go there but ended up going somewhere else. And so,
She was like, at the time I didn't have a car. So she was like, I'll take you to visit the campus if you want. So I was like, okay. So we went one day and we visited the campus and I just remember like walking around and even though I don't necessarily consider myself like a Christian these days or even like much of like a church going kind of person, I would say that walking around that campus, like I...
it felt like I was having a spiritual experience. I just knew as soon as I stepped foot on that campus that that is where I needed to be. so much so, I remember sitting on a bench and just crying. I was just so overwhelmed with all these feelings. And I was like, I have to be here. This is where I have to go. And so I think it was summer. It was maybe May or June. And so I applied and I got in.
with like almost a full ride. And I was supposed to start in the fall, but I didn't have anywhere to live. I didn't have a car, I didn't have a job. And so they allow me to defer my enrollment into the spring semester. And then in the spring, I took three classes. I took medieval history, philosophy, and I took
intersectional approaches to media studies. And those three classes fucking changed my life. Changed my life. Philosophy was incredibly hard. I spent most of the semester not even understanding what we were reading because I had never read anything, any philosophical literature before. So I struggled there, but the professor was like really amazing and just like spent a lot of time with me just like.
explaining things and I hope that it was a small college with small class size, you know, there I think there was like six of us in the class. But I remember sitting in the medieval, like the medieval class and reading and discussing the Crusades and all of that and coming straight from a church like a religious environment and then talking about the political ramifications of the Crusades like in a really honest way.
that's that you don't, you wouldn't get like in high school, right? In the high school textbook. I was like, fuck. Religion is really, really fucked. Like what the hell? And it was, it was in that class that I was like, I do not want to be associated with anything that looks like this anymore. And I know that there are a lot of people who
who are religious, who do go to church and still have those beliefs that say, you know, well, people are flawed, but God isn't, right? Like, you know, that's, you really should be part of the spiritual community, not for the people, for the being that you're worshiping. And to that, I would say one, that's bullshit because the reason people go to church is not just because of quote unquote God, but it's also because to be in community with people.
But also like, if it looks like a fish and it smells like a fish and it swims like a fish, right? know usually people say duck, whatever. To me, just gives me that, you know, when you smell fish, you're just like, mm. So if that's the case, like, even if, let's say even if I did believe in this God that I once believed in, I still would not go to church. I still would not want to be associated with the
structure the system of religion because of how fucked up people have been throughout the centuries in the name of quote unquote god and so i would still want to separate myself from that and then intersectional media approaches to or intersectional approaches to media studies like
For the very first time, I was like, that's what I've been feeling this whole time. I started to see that, yes,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (15:48)
Like I got the language.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:51)
I was like, I now have the language to talk about these experiences that I've had. And that cognitive dissonance that I was experiencing, like, I just need to do all the things, but then I'm doing all the things and it's still not turning out the way they me it would. Like, it's still the gap.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:11)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:12)
There's a reason for that. Okay, it wasn't just me or my intuition was right, right? Like it validated my experiences and it was after that semester that like I changed my major to like women's studies because I was at the time when I went back, I was a sociology and anthropology major. And I changed it to women's studies because I was like, I got to like consume as much of this as possible or engage with it.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:34)
Did you
did you exit the I know you weren't working at the church, but you were still in the in kind of in religion you're like when did you was it that semester where you're like I reject this and I'm no longer part of this religion or was the process of disentangling yourself a little longer?
Taina Brown she/hers (16:49)
No, was that semester. Like I had already stopped going as much as I was going before. Cause when I worked there, one, I was there almost every day cause I worked there. So every event, every service, like I had to be there as a staff member. So once I got fired, I started only going like once or twice a week, but then about halfway through the semester, I was like, yeah, I know this, this isn't for me. And so, and I had, you know, church friends that didn't care.
They were just like, yeah, sure. It never even came up. It wasn't even like, why aren't you coming to church anymore? But then I did have church friends who were like, why aren't you coming to church anymore? We miss you. What's going on? And then when I would tell them, and I was like, well, this is what I've been thinking about. They didn't have anything to say.
There was still like that, I mean, their argument was like, well, you know, people, people are flawed, but God isn't. You should still come to church. You should still come back. And it's like, okay. But if the church is the people. Like it's interesting because like in a lot of evangelical searches or circles, like they.
It's like they're saying two different things at the same time. Like they say, when people talk about how fucked up the church is, they're like, well, the church is, you know, it's about God. It's not about the people. But when they're evangelicalizing, when they're
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:08)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:09)
preaching and trying to convert people, right, the argument or the premises that the church is made up of people, like the people are the ones that matter. So it's like, which is it? You can't have both, right?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:22)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:23)
And I will say like a few years, maybe four or five years before I got fired while still working at the church, like it did come to light that there was some sexual abuse happening in the church. And
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:34)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:35)
like, it just got covered up and like, nobody talked about it. And very few people knew, very few people knew what had actually happened. More people knew.
that there was quote unquote an affair that had happened. They had framed it as an affair as opposed to the sexual abuse that it was. And so that was really hard to like, and it happened to someone that I was very close to. And
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:04)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:04)
so that was a really hard thing to come to terms with, but even that didn't like drive me away. Like I was still, well, no, this is where I need to be, you know, so.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:16)
Yeah. So college comes along, religion, understanding some of the historical legacy of that that you didn't know, and then getting some language around intersectionality and and the intersections of oppression sort of was what really shifted for you. Were there any particular
Taina Brown she/hers (19:30)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:31)
authors' books, anything in there beyond just what you know, the the stuff you're learning from the teacher? But there anything that just really
Taina Brown she/hers (19:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:37)
struck home that was like really in instrumental in some of the unlearning process for you?
Taina Brown she/hers (19:41)
Yeah, yeah. So there was one reading assignment. And this was the following semester when I took Intro to Women's Studies, right? So I kind of took this upper level course. They let me take this upper level course without having to take the intro class. But then when I did take the intro class, the textbook was an anthology of different works from different writers. And so there were a couple
There were several reading assignments in the textbook that just really made an impression. And one was Who is Your Mother? The Red Roots of White Feminism. I think the author is Paula Gunn Allen. I think that was her name. And it's about how the early suffragettes, the ones who wrote basically the Seneca Falls Convention, if you knew anything about feminism and feminist history.
They modeled their requests in that, they modeled their movement after what they saw in the indigenous tribes and how gender inequality or gender equality was played out day to day. And so when they saw that in the indigenous tribes, they were like, wait a second, how come we don't have the same privileges? How come we don't have?
the same kind of like societal structures. And so then they came together and they wrote the Seneca Falls Convention. The other one is the Combahee collective, the
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:58)
Collective. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:59)
Combahee River Collective, yeah. And that was in response to the second wave feminist movement. There was a lot of Black lesbian women who were trying to find...
a footing in the feminist movement, but didn't feel like there was a place for them because they were lesbian and because they were Black. And so they came together and wrote their own manifesto towards a Black feminist liberation movement. And then the third one was, fuck, my mind just went blank. It was a piece on intersectionality by Kimberlé Crenshaw.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:35)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:35)
And it was one of
her first pieces on intersectionality in like the early 80s. And I remember she gave an example in, she gave two examples in that article. And this is a legal paper, right? Like I just, again, I want to preface this intersectionality started as a legal framework because Kimberly Crenshaw is a legal scholar. She's not a sociologist. She's, know, her work obviously intersects in different places, but she gave two examples, but one of them was about
Black women who worked, I think it was at Ford or some like car company. And they weren't getting hired because they were giving the office jobs to white women and they were giving the floor jobs to Black men. And so basically there was no place for them. And so they sued the car company and they were like, we are being discriminated against based on both our gender and our race.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:30)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:30)
And the ruling came in against them because the court said, if we agree that you're being discriminated against twice, that gives you a privilege that white women and Black men don't have. Because then it's like a double, it's like a, it would be like double privileges or like a double ruling or something like that. And so, which doesn't make any fucking sense, but that's what they ruled.
And so Kimberly Courant-Charle used that and some other examples as a case for needing an intersectional approach in the legal system to address issues of discrimination against people who aren't just one thing but have multiple identities. Yeah, so those were the three that like really made the biggest
impression for me.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:21)
Awesome.
All right. I'm going to go through my origin story and show, I think it'll highlight some differences because the religion thing
Taina Brown she/hers (23:26)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:27)
my parents from a very early age said if you want to explore religion, we'll let you do that. But we're not, religious. I went to vacation Bible school one summer and went to church briefly by myself. My parents literally dropped me off at those things and then picked me up because they were like, we're not doing it. And I pretty quickly realized it just wasn't for me. So that never factored in, which I think is important because that is such a
Such a big additional layer of re
Taina Brown she/hers (23:50)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:51)
of reinforcing the oppressive concepts with a moral lens that adds
Taina Brown she/hers (23:56)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:57)
a weight that I didn't have. Because when your
Taina Brown she/hers (23:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:00)
thoughts, when your like belief systems around this are also tied up with you're gonna go to hell, eternal damnation,
Taina Brown she/hers (24:05)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:06)
that is a very different level of
Taina Brown she/hers (24:08)
That's a lot of pressure.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:09)
I felt very lucky that that was the approach I was given. and honestly, I'm it's pretty shocking in the world I grew up in, Midwest red, deeply religious part of the world that my parents did that.
Both of my parents were college educated, and I think that makes a big difference, So I that is a privilege
Taina Brown she/hers (24:23)
.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:25)
that I have that a lot of people don't have.
I grew up, my mom grew up in a very rural, like had she was using an outhouse in the 1960s when their people didn't have outhouses anymore because they were very, very desperately poor. So my grandparents had eight kids, a one-room, one-bedroom house.
And my mom grew up in a school that was segregated not just by race, because there were no Black kids, but segregated by boys and girls. They had a girls' hallway and a boys' hallway, and the girls and boys weren't allowed to.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:50)
Wow.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:51)
Use the same hallway and right. So, like, and I'm not talking this is not the 1920s. This is my mom was born in 1950, basically. So, this is the 60s, 50s, 60s, right? And then
Taina Brown she/hers (24:58)
Yeah, so this is like 70, 60, 70.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (25:01)
she goes to college in basically 1970 through the Vietnam War and stuff.
for her to leave that exceptionally small, exceptionally red, exceptionally racist part of the world. I grew up with the entirety of my mom's family, other than my mom.
Making racist jokes. I mean,
Taina Brown she/hers (25:17)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (25:17)
I heard the N-word growing up, I never used it because I had a parent who taught us very different. She left, moved to a big city, she got college educated, the only one in that family who did. So I it's like the luck of the draw, some of this I think about. The fact that
Taina Brown she/hers (25:30)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (25:31)
my mom was the one of eight that went to college, the one of eight that left the small town and went to a big city, the one of eight
Taina Brown she/hers (25:36)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (25:37)
who is, you know, college educated and and decided not to be a part of religion and raise me that way. that's so
much luck involves that I also can find empathy for people who didn't have those privileges that I have that
Taina Brown she/hers (25:50)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (25:51)
helped to lift me out of a way of thinking that I still don't think it's an excuse to have the hatred in your heart. However, I can understand where it comes from when it is the entirety of your existence.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:01)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:02)
So I feel very lucky. now here's where it goes a bit astray. Obviously a well-meaning person
However, she also grew up in the circumstances I've just outlined. So for her, as a sort of second wave feminist, the Gloria Steinem years, you know, she went to college in 1970, 67. She's
Taina Brown she/hers (26:17)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:17)
there during the Vietnam War. She's like, you know, women are burning their bras that whole sort of time period. Gloria Steinem and her friends are like, are the leaders of that sort of movement. My mom's learning about things in that time. And again, you mentioned the Combahee River Collective, which I now understand, but wouldn't have when I was young.
But that that
Taina Brown she/hers (26:33)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:34)
was in response to that very time. As you're saying, those second wave feminists,
Taina Brown she/hers (26:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:37)
you know, this sort of white-centered feminist experience is
Taina Brown she/hers (26:41)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:42)
sort of where my mom's growing up. So her message to us was not one of racism is bad, although there was that, or
Here's what racism means. It was we don't see color kind of approach, That we often see
Taina Brown she/hers (26:54)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:56)
from people who kind of came from that time frame.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:58)
The now, many of the baby boomers who came from that time frame never even got that far. So I am
Taina Brown she/hers (27:03)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:04)
grateful that my mom got to that place. Because it would have been just easy for her to be like her sisters and never have gotten even there.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:10)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:10)
I also now know how that can, in in its best of intentions, can also be problematic,
it's just silly to think that we don't see color. We do see color, it exists. You know, and along with that message is we
Taina Brown she/hers (27:18)
Yeah. The color isn't the problem.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:22)
right.
I again, though, grew up in the suburbs of a city. So it was very white. We had a few people of color in my school. most of those folks were not Black.
I had a couple of Black friends in high school, and I was part of starting the multicultural club in high school because I was like very much racism is bad and all of that.
my first boyfriend in high school was Black. And that
Taina Brown she/hers (27:45)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:45)
was one of my earliest experiences of understanding where the experience I was having didn't shape up with what it meant to actually live in the world. So, right, my mom saying
Taina Brown she/hers (27:55)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:55)
we're all one people, we don't judge people this way, whatever. Yet when I came home with a Black boyfriend, her tension around that became apparent. To the point
Taina Brown she/hers (28:05)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:05)
of her saying,
But what if you have kids? Aren't you worried about them being discriminated against? Because we do live in a world where that would be the case.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:12)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:13)
And I remember sitting with that thinking, yes, that may be true. And it's because of the things that you're saying, right? Like, because if you're
Taina Brown she/hers (28:21)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:21)
telling me it doesn't matter, then it shouldn't matter. And if it does matter, then why does it matter?
Again, didn't have language, didn't understand. I knew racism was bad, and yet my mom's worried about having, you know, multiracial grandchildren because of the discrimination they'll face.
it just none
Taina Brown she/hers (28:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:37)
of it quite added up. And then in college, like you, I had a class.
That very much altered my understanding of things, it was a a class around like multiculturalism and media or something. Because
Taina Brown she/hers (28:48)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:49)
I was a journalism student. And he did that exercise that many people know where you all start on one line and then he'll
Taina Brown she/hers (28:54)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:55)
say, if you've never had to experience food instability, take a step forward. If you've never had, if you don't remember
pulled over or, you know, whatever, had a bad experience with a cop, take a step forward. That social experiment And I had never experienced anything like that. Had never heard of such a concept. And despite me not being able to take steps forward on many of the answers, because I did grow up economically disadvantaged for certain and with other things, there were many places where I was able to step forward. So I wasn't at the front of the line, but I certainly wasn't left behind.
Like I got to
Taina Brown she/hers (29:25)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:25)
move And I remembered that stark awareness that it brought to me of this understanding of like, it's not just we don't see color and it's these other things. It's like, no, it's obviously about color and race, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (29:38)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:38)
Like, because look at this experiment is telling me that I had a different experience than I thought I did of life.
and that was really impactful for me to understand. Now, all this to say. That was really great. And I still had so much privilege and I didn't understand complex issues around this, that I think from there the path I began to take was one more of s white savior complex sort of a thing where it was like, I see
Taina Brown she/hers (30:01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (30:03)
this and it's like, well, I'll fix it for everybody, which sometimes I still can
be guilty of. and like, this is now my job to fix, and won't everyone be so grateful when I do. And look at me being a good person. that's where my morality piece came in is I want people to see me as a good person for solving these issues
I couldn't have been more quintessentially white feminist without understanding what that meant for a long time. I just thought of myself as like I'm the I'm one of the good ones, guys. I'm one of the good ones, I campaigned for Obama,
Because in my mind, in some ways, I think I really believe too, if we get this Black man elected, then
Taina Brown she/hers (30:40)
It'll fix everything.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (30:41)
and that's the proof that we've done it,
And I think for me, where everything began to crumble for that second layer. So the first part of crumbling was just like this understanding that racism is a real issue and it's not as simple as we don't see color.
The next piece of where my white feminism began to dissolve was actually after Obama got elected. And I had worked so hard to see that man elected. I was so excited about it. And while it's very hard now in this regime to look at that time and it through a critical lens, because it's kind of like when someone you love dies and you you lift them up and you think of them as like this hero. The truth
Taina Brown she/hers (31:18)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (31:19)
is Obama was in many ways a major disappointment.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:22)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (31:23)
And again, by today's standards, he would be like, my God, wouldn't we all be thrilled? But the truth is, so much of what I thought it would mean did not happen, In my
Taina Brown she/hers (31:33)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (31:33)
mind, it was going to be what I think like Mamdani looks like in practice, I thought this
Taina Brown she/hers (31:38)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (31:38)
person's gonna come along, and obviously, through all this lived experience that he must have, I didn't have that language then, but like he's a Black man, so obviously he's gonna
And
When that stuff didn't happen, and I started to under that was when I really began to understand that piece of, wait a minute. Black people also are internalizing this same stuff. And they and can end up being just as much a part of upholding these systems
Taina Brown she/hers (31:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (31:59)
as anyone else,
So like by 2012 and his re-election, I was so disillusioned. I mean I voted for him. I've never voted for a Republican, but I didn't campaign for his re-election. I really removed myself from politics a lot at that point because and this is where I didn't yet understand my privilege is allowing this.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:16)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:17)
I can just step away from it all then. Fuck it. I did my part because again, it was rooted in
Taina Brown she/hers (32:20)
you
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:20)
ultimately sort of this white saviorism
And then when I realized it didn't even really matter, I was like, well, fuck it then. I don't even care.
and by twenty sixteen I was like, I don't fucking care. They're all horrible.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:30)
I'll ask you the same thing you asked me. Like, there things like books or articles or, you know, TV shows or
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:34)
Yeah. For sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:36)
creators that you read that like made a big difference in.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:38)
Yeah. Well, and I'll just also
quickly mention mention before the twenty sixteen election, I had started I twenty twelve I was like disillusioned. Twenty fourteen though, I had moved back to St. Louis and a half a mile from my where I lived at the time in Ferguson, Michael Brown was murdered by a local police
Taina Brown she/hers (32:53)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:54)
officer. And I remember the feeling of people burning down. I could see the fires from our house.
And I remember
Taina Brown she/hers (32:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:59)
thinking, I'm mad. And I don't think this is right. But I also was like, why don't I want to be burning the street? Why don't I feel that urgency? And also, what's this little part of me that's this that's afraid? Right? Like I'm afraid to go join this. Like it doesn't feel like it's my battle. And why do I believe that?
Taina Brown she/hers (33:09)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:13)
That's when I began to do some of the unpacking to understand and started to learn what like white feminism meant and where and what intersectionality
Taina Brown she/hers (33:18)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:20)
meant
I think the first book that made the biggest difference was bell hook's Feminism is for everybody. Because it was a Black woman talking about feminism. So it was still speaking this language I understood as somebody who grew up reading
Taina Brown she/hers (33:30)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:31)
Sassy and Ms. Magazine and idolized Gloria
Taina Brown she/hers (33:33)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:33)
Steinem, got to interview her once and all of that. Like it was speaking this language I understood around feminism, but bringing in perspectives that
wasn't there in so much of the other stuff I had read. I had
Taina Brown she/hers (33:43)
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:43)
read Gloria Steinem. I had read Bella Abzug.
but bell hooks had a different perspective that hadn't been a part
Taina Brown she/hers (33:50)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:50)
of all those conversations that I had been like listening in on. It also brought about for me this understanding of like conscious raising circles, which were a big thing in
Taina Brown she/hers (33:58)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:58)
the 70s with women's rights. And that's where I was like, I want something where I can read these kinds of texts with other people. So
By then it was like twenty eighteen-ish, and I started a feminist reading group, and we started reading a lot of feminist texts, which was really great because by 2020, when so many people were having this white reckoning of like, racism's
Taina Brown she/hers (34:16)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:16)
a real thing. I was already having read books that made a big difference, like bell hooks I had read Sister Outsider by Audre Lorde, which was another huge one for me in like
Taina Brown she/hers (34:26)
uses
of the erotic.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:28)
First one that I read. In fact, the reason I got to Sister Outsider was because I read Pleasure Activism And the one essay inside of there that made the biggest impact on me was Uses of the Erotic.
Audre Lorde and bell hooks more than anyone
Taina Brown she/hers (34:40)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:41)
else.
were the two people who helped me really begin to understand all of these overlapping identities and how we cannot pull things out and
Taina Brown she/hers (34:50)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:50)
began to be able to see it, see it in my own
Taina Brown she/hers (34:53)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:53)
past of where it was like I was trying to do that. And then I would say the other big book for me was White Feminism by Koa Beck who we got to interview, which was amazing. And
Taina Brown she/hers (35:01)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:02)
we have that, I can link to that as well. that book was really important for me and I I
recommend it always to white women instead of the one by Robin D'Angelo. Because one, Koa Beck has a lived experience of being multiracial, Also has some understanding of actually kind of living in two worlds by being lighter skin and also a bit some of the ways that that's perceived.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Being perceived as white usually,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:25)
Being able to be perceived as white in certain spaces and knowing what that
Taina Brown she/hers (35:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:28)
means and then
and her book was really, really important for me too in that unpacking journey of saying, my feminism has not always been what I thought it was.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:38)
I love that you brought up Audre Lorde because even though uses of the erotic wasn't one of the initial things that I read that just tipped me over into understanding and having a language for understanding how I experienced the world and how the world is set up. I read that one later on in college, a few semesters later when I was taking a Black feminism class.
And while a lot of the texts that we have read previous to that in that class and in other classes focus a lot on the issues, like uses of the erotic, I feel like was one of the first texts, if not the first thing that I read that felt empowering, that was like, I still have choice.
I can still do something. I still have power within myself to decide how I want to live my life despite all this stuff that's happening out there. so, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:31)
Well and a lot of what we've talked about has been around race, but I do think in the spirit of intersectionality, I think it's also
really important to and that's why I want to get back to before we finish, because both of us identify as pansexual. And I'm curious,
Taina Brown she/hers (36:39)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:42)
and I think this is an area where you got there way before me, it not in being that, but being able to own that and be with that and
Taina Brown she/hers (36:47)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:49)
whatever. So was that a text that was important in that for you? Or where did that part of your journey and and stepping
Taina Brown she/hers (36:56)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:57)
into your full identity come in?
Taina Brown she/hers (36:58)
so I mean it wasn't long before, it wasn't long after that first semester in college that I realized, I'm definitely not straight. I don't know what I am, but I'm definitely not straight, Because then I was in an environment where it was okay to not be straight and there was language around the multiple ways that you could not be straight, So before that when I was in a church it was like,
you're straight or you're not. Like it was just, it was very Black and white. And for people in the church, there's no other way to be but straight, but heterosexual, Right. Exactly. Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:31)
right. You're either straight or you're going to hell is basically the two options. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:35)
And so, and, and I like to tell people I was queer before I knew I was queer because when I was in the church, those, those last few years, like I had just decided I knew I didn't want to marry a man.
And so I was just like, I'm just not going to get married. And that was the seeds of like my queerness, like beginning to manifest. And like my friends and other people in the church could not wrap their heads around the idea of a woman not wanting to get married. And they were
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:04)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:05)
like, but what? Because the whole print, like religion is built up on patriarchy. It's built like the foundation is patriarchy and heterosexuality and family and like.
those kinds of things. so, but then literally weeks into my first semester, was like, definitely not straight. And I was like, okay, now I gotta like, figure out what I am. Like, what is it that I like? who, what kinds of people do I like? it, I think by the end of my first semester, I was like, about halfway through, I was like, maybe I'm bi? But then after, a few weeks after like,
thinking through that and being like, no, I'm not bi because I feel like I don't care what's in somebody's pants. it's less about what's in somebody's pants and more about the person themselves. And so then I was like, and then I was like, okay, I'm like pansexual or omnisexual or, know, whatever you want to call it. And that's what it's been since then. And that was in 2013.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:03)
Well, I mean, I had had sex with a woman before then, so maybe I am ahead of you. However, I didn't
Taina Brown she/hers (39:07)
Hahahaha
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:09)
I had I was so ingrained in patriarchy that in my mind, because I had been married to a man, in my mind that meant I was heterosexual. And because we live in this patriarchal system that involves a lot of male fantasy.
In my mind, if I were fantasizing about women, that was just because that's okay and has nothing to do with preferences. It was just like fantasies or whatever, And then when that fantasy
Taina Brown she/hers (39:28)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:32)
manifested into something that was no longer a fantasy but actually happening, it was still felt like it was, it doesn't was no proof of anything,
Whereas now, if a man were to kiss a man, he's, you know, in this in this patriarchal
Taina Brown she/hers (39:42)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:42)
society, he's gay,
But there's a difference the way we treat women because we treat it as this like titillation for men. I had exceptionalized it, that it wasn't necessarily a statement on my identity.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:52)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:53)
And it took a long time for me to be able to get to that place because and what I have just since discovered was that was my own internalized homophobia. That
Taina Brown she/hers (39:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:00)
I was so deeply uncomfortable with the
It becoming part of my identity. And I
Taina Brown she/hers (40:05)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:05)
didn't understand why for a really long time it was finally getting some language around that to realize, like, it's because I have these beliefs. Because like I had a lot of gay friends. I was like, it's not homophobia. I'm not homophobic at all. But suddenly when it was about me and my identity
Taina Brown she/hers (40:19)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:19)
and how I would be perceived by the world, it became something very different. And this realization
Taina Brown she/hers (40:24)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:24)
of like, holy shit.
Even without being part of the church and having all of that stuff,
Taina Brown she/hers (40:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:29)
even with all of the love I have for people, I was like, I have a lot of this stuff baked inside of me that I didn't know was there. And that was really
Taina Brown she/hers (40:35)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:35)
hard. And what changed for me, honestly, was finally was when RBG died. Has nothing to do with actually LGBT politics, but when she died, I cried and cried because I knew before anything had changed, I knew what it meant. I knew that we were about
Taina Brown she/hers (40:48)
Hmm
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:49)
to lose rights that had been there the entirety of my lifetime.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:53)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:53)
And I was for the first time in my life, because of my privilege as a white woman, that I was like, I felt oppressed. Not like I knew it in some metaphorical way or like, yeah, an abstract sense.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:02)
Yeah, something theoretical,
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:04)
But I was like, this is what it look like. It's happening. And that was where I was like, I can't sit on the sidelines anymore.
this privilege that has allowed this moment to be the moment that's really unraveling, says that I have privilege I have to start using. And I
Taina Brown she/hers (41:18)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:18)
understood that that also meant.
Around these other issues, because by then I had trans friends and I was deeply fighting for and caring about the LGBTQ community, but still seeing that as a separate community for me. I wasn't part of it. And that was when I finally
Taina Brown she/hers (41:29)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:31)
I came out. Like it wasn't like people, like my partner, my husband knows. My friends knew,
but I I never identified as that.
until I finally sort of said it and owned it and was
Taina Brown she/hers (41:39)
yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:42)
like, instead of continuing to feel like that I that this is a community I support, I was finally like, no, it's a community I'm in and I need to fight
Taina Brown she/hers (41:49)
I'm a part of, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:51)
for myself, not just everyone else. And like many women who are in heteronormative presenting marriages, who are bi or pansexual or some other, you know, identity
Taina Brown she/hers (42:01)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:01)
beyond heterosexual.
because that I wrote about this experience and had so many women in that same space write to me and say, This is how I have felt, which is I have felt
Taina Brown she/hers (42:10)
Bye!
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:11)
like it's not my community to claim.
because as somebody who has all the privileges and safety of being it perceived
Taina Brown she/hers (42:17)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:17)
as, I can easily be perceived as straight,
that it felt almost like co-opting something that wasn't mine.
and I thought maybe I'm the only one doing these mental gymnastics. When I shared it, so many women said I have felt the same way. And I finally realized
Taina Brown she/hers (42:30)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:30)
I have to quit separating myself because that's part of the problem. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:33)
Of the problem, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:35)
So anyway, thank you for sharing that journey.
I just
Taina Brown she/hers (42:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:37)
hope it's helpful for people to hear some of the like journey because I think.
Sometimes it can feel overwhelming when you're on this journey where you feel like everyone else knows more, has done more. And unfortunately in certain communities can make you feel that way.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:50)
Feel that way, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:52)
Cause that happened to me early on too, where I felt like I don't belong because I haven't yet read if I hadn't read, I Audre Lorde as an example, or whatever
Taina Brown she/hers (42:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:59)
it is, it's like, do I belong then? Cause I'm not at I haven't done this learning. And it's like I don't have a PhD in this shit.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:05)
We'll provide links to some of the articles that are just like available, easily available.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:09)
And the books, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:10)
Yeah. So if you're listening or watching and you want to read it, it'll be there.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:13)
Yes, thank you very much for listening and maybe reading and hopefully it inspires you to like do one little thing that starts to open up your mind a little to something different. So
Taina Brown she/hers (43:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:23)
thanks Taina. I love doing this with you.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:25)
Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:26)
Thanks for listening to Messy Liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen? Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.