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Even the most prominent voices in Sales were crap at Sales once.
Join bestselling Author, Founder and Sales Coach Mark Ackers as he speaks with successful Sales professionals about their early Sales struggles, and how they overcame these challenges to become the people they are today.
Mark Ackers: Hi everyone. Here's
what's coming up in today's
episode. Now today's guest.
Where do I start? He's an
Australian who studied at the
University of Technology in
Sydney and has gone on to have
an amazing sales career along
the way. He's also worn hats of
advisor, fractional VP of sales,
and of course, he's one of our
brilliant coaches here at my
sales coach. But, and there's
always a but it hasn't always
been smooth sailing. In between
those successes, there's also a
job where I spent nine months
for a cyber security firm, and
he didn't close a single deal.
If you haven't guessed it
already, my guest today is Scott
Cowley, did you used to be crap
at sales?
Scott Cowley: God Yes. I was a
super high performer, as I said.
Joined this organisation and I
was like, ready to make some
serious cash, and it just never
worked. And then the CEO sat me
down and basically said, This
isn't working. Handed me my P 45
and I was out the door that day.
I was very immature every role
I'd been in. When I left, I
didn't have any friends left in
the organisation. I understood
what the product did really
well. You could monitor a bunch
of Twitter accounts. You could
get a lot of information, but I
had no idea why someone would
pay at the time, two analyst
salaries for this product. Some
businesses, the seasonality is
so easy. HR tech, for example,
the sale will happen in q4
implementation will happen in q1
Mark Ackers: you've actually
gotten a journey where you've
learned the three whys. You've
created your own frameworks. How
did you go from being let go for
non performance to being able to
sit here today. How did you
learn all this?
Scott Cowley: You have to deeply
understand why someone is buying
your product. And I break it
down into this three whys. Why
buy anything? Why buy now? And
the one that people are really
good at is, Why buy your
product? Most people are really
good at one of them, but it's
the last one that they're really
good at. Why buy anything? A lot
of them are bought in. Why buy
now they got completely wrong.
It's probably the one that the
buyer is going to struggle the
most to answer, but it has to be
in that order, because if you
don't have Why buy anything,
they're not even going to
entertain you long enough to get
to why buy. Now, if you've
chosen a path that requires
sales, you either have to get
good at it, or the business
doesn't exist. The biggest thing
I wish I had to learn a lot
younger is
Mark Ackers: Hello and welcome
to another episode of The I used
to be crap with sales Podcast.
I'm Mark Akers co founder and
Head of Sales here at my sales
coach, and I'm your host, Scott.
Welcome to the UK, to the myself
coach headquarters, and to the
orange chairs. Is it okay say
Good day mate.
Scott Cowley: Yeah, Good day
mate. To you too. How you doing?
You okay? I'm all right. Yeah,
I'm all right. Jet lagged. I've
been in Europe for like, two
weeks, so the jet lag is gone,
but I'm flying out in two days,
so the jet lag will be back.
Mark Ackers: The opportunity to
have you in offices and on the
podcast was too good to resist.
Scott, we always start with a
yes. No question, did you used
to be crap at sales? God, yes.
And how crap are we talking on a
scale of one to 1010, being the
crappest you could be.
Scott Cowley: I mean, I did have
a sales job for almost a year
where I didn't sell anything.
I'm gonna say a one. So 10 is
the crappest you can be. Oh, I'm
gonna be a 10, a solid 10, like,
I definitely used to be crap at
sales,
Mark Ackers: I tell you what,
Scott, why don't we start there,
then set the scene for us. This
was your job in London, wasn't
it? The cybersecurity firm,
yeah, one of them, yeah. Okay,
so tell us a little bit about
that role and what you were
doing.
Scott Cowley: So I did have a
role before that where I was
quite senior. It was the role I
started in Australia, moved over
to the UK. Was a senior sales
rep within that organisation.
Left there. I was trying to find
a job with the highest OTA
possible. I wanted to make
100,000 pounds. And then I
joined. And I still to this day,
have no idea why anyone would
buy the product. The whole time
I was there, I was listening to
other people's sales calls. I
understood what the product did
really well. I understood how it
could you could monitor a bunch
of Twitter accounts. You could
get a lot of information and
then make that information into
a certain format. But I had no
idea why someone would pay, at
the time, two analyst salaries
for this product. I have looked
them up not too long ago, and
they have grown quite a bit as
an organisation. So maybe they
worked that problem out, but I
could never work it out. And
they have customers, so, like,
it's 100% of me problem. That's
probably my worst experience in
sales joining I was a super high
performer, as I said, join this
organisation, and I was like,
ready to make some serious cash,
and it just never worked. Yeah.
Then the CEO sat me down just
before he was going to the US
for a trip, and basically said,
This isn't working. I said, No,
it isn't. It had to be my P 45
and I was out the door that day.
Things are slightly different
now, but yeah, that
organisation, I wish them the
best. I just I couldn't work
Mark Ackers: it out. Just for
those listening for context,
what year are we talking about
here? When was this I
Scott Cowley: think it was 2017
Yeah. 17. Yeah, it might have
been 2018 when I left, but I
think I joined in 2017
Mark Ackers: in a scary way.
Doesn't feel like it was
Scott Cowley: that long ago, but
so recent. Yeah, so and you said
before,
Mark Ackers: and just picking up
in your language, you said you
were a super high performer.
What's your definition of that?
The
Scott Cowley: previous company
when I was. Australia, I was top
three in Asia consistently.
Never was number one, but I was
kind of two or three
consistently. Then when I moved
to the UK, I was consistently
top five for that. That office
sold to Latin America, Middle
East, Africa and Europe. So
yeah, that office, I was
consistently top five again. I
was never number one, but I was
always kind of there or there
abouts and that organisation as
well. When I first joined, I set
the target of being number one
in something. I ended up being
number one in outbound sales for
two months running, which wasn't
something they did track, but I
tracked it. So like I was good
at that job, but I think I got
good at selling that product,
not good at sales. And
subsequently, I've had to learn
how to be good at sales itself.
But there's definitely that
imposter syndrome that's like,
Am I still crap at sales? Like
every time a deal that it should
have gone a certain direction,
in my mind, doesn't definitely
that imposter syndrome kicks in
and you're like, maybe I am
still crap at this thing. So
that's yeah, that definitely I
have been a super high
performer. I have been literally
fired from jobs or a job in a
sales capacity.
Mark Ackers: There's a few
phrases that I want to pull out
there. I just suppose again for
context, when you said top
three, top five out of how many?
Scott Cowley: In Australia, it
would have been 25 okay, in
Europe, it would have been,
let's say, double that 50. And
then when I was number one,
because right at the beginning
of when I joined in Australia,
when I was number one at the
outbound thing, there would have
been 150 reps worldwide.
Mark Ackers: Okay, so in
Australia and London, basically
what we're saying is in the top
10% Yeah, effectively, okay. And
then the bit that pleased me,
because I thought I'm gonna have
to go here, and I don't know how
you'll take it. Is when you said
it's a me thing, oh, 100% that
was a me thing. And that's what
I was gonna get to because I was
gonna ask, was the company
successful? Are people buying
it? So
Scott Cowley: that company, when
I joined, there were four sales
reps. One got fired three weeks
after I joined for non
performance. Two of us joined at
the same time, so there's four,
went to six, went to five, then
myself and the other guy who I
joined with Pro also left within
the year. I think the other guy
did close a few deals. I think
his was voluntary. So they Yeah,
at the time, they had three
successful sellers. I think
Mark Ackers: so the interesting
thing that, that you said was
you took it straight to the
salaries of two data analysts.
She was like, why would someone
pay the equivalent of two data
analyst salaries? And then you
spoke about imposter syndrome.
One of the things that I talk
about a lot, and I see in sales
people, are mindset issues
around need for approval,
imposter syndrome and a weakness
for money. And the interesting
thing I remember, early in my
career, I used to think no one's
going to pay the equivalent of
my salary for this product. And
that's because what I thought
was expensive actually to
another business wasn't. I
actually had this conversation
my wife a couple of weeks ago,
and it didn't, I didn't deliver
it in the best way, but she was
talking about something being
very expensive. You know? She's
saying, oh, one of our
customers, they're paying, I
can't genuinely come in the
amount, but it's a lot of money.
And I said, is it a lot of
money, though? Is that a lot of
money? Because to you and I, is
busy, and she, she just didn't
want that conversation, like,
What do you mean? It's like, it
was like, millions, right? And
she's like, of course, a lot of
money. I was like, Is it to
them? And when you start talking
about two data analyst salaries,
we're talking about what's
expensive to us, not to the
business, I'm just wondering
there, like when you say it's a
me, thing, was it weakness for
money at the time? Need for
approval, imposter syndrome
holding you back. I
Scott Cowley: think part of it
is I didn't understand that
product did not contribute
directly to the bottom line.
There was no way to use that
product to make more money. I
fully understand spending, and I
I've definitely my opinions of
how much is too much, how much
is expensive, all those sorts of
things these days completely
different. But the reason I
related it to two analysts is
one of the quotes in all of the
collateral for that company was
from a navy customer who
explicitly said this saves us
two analysts. So I was trying to
relate it to the way that the
customers described it, and I
couldn't understand that
product. There was no way it
impacts the bottom line. So if
you think about the reasons
people buy anything, you've got
more money or less costs and
more revenue hits the bottom
line. You've got more time or
less time spent on certain
things, so, like, more
capability, or you've got, like,
a grudge purchase or a
reputation purchase, or
something like that. Like, no
one buys insurance expecting it
to end up on the bottom line.
That's why you just don't pay as
much for insurance as you would
for something else. Whereas a
salesperson, you're hiring them,
expecting a multiple of their
salary as an ROI. So thinking
about in that context
specifically, I was relating it
to the way that the quote from
their buyer related to it, I
will say I've probably had, I
mean, I've definitely had money
issues and money the. Thoughts
over the years, but I do exactly
what you do of Well, hang on,
let's relate that to something.
Because my my apartment in
Australia, is a million dollars,
like, that's a lot of money to a
lot of people. To me, our
apartments too small and we need
to upsize so like relating it
into the millions is I can I now
have that conversation with
other people exactly around the
money worthiness element, and I
don't think at the time it was a
money worthiness thing, because
I'm very good as well
personally, of putting who is
Scott and what Scott's worth
completely to one side, because
the product I'm selling, or the
product that I'm coaching people
and training people to sell,
it's not us, like at the end of
the day, no one really is buying
us. They buy into us, but
they're buying the outcome the
product gives them. One of the
newsletters I wrote, I kind of
remember how long ago was
talking about how at the end of
the day, if your customer or
your prospect could solve the
problem they had without ever
speaking to you, they'd probably
be happier, because they just
don't have the problem. They
don't have to put any resources
into the problem. Therefore, the
only reason they're talking to
you is because the pain is so
great that they have to invest
in it. They have to put cash
into it. And that's that's one
of the things that I do to get
around the money worthiness when
I'm coaching people. I'm
coaching people, because it's
coming back to your question.
No, it wasn't me having issues
with charging that much money.
It was me trying to relate to
why would someone buy that? And
that's why, as much as I can, I
much prefer products that hit
the bottom line so that are
directly money, not time or even
grudge or reputation, because
money is so much easier to sell
and you can charge a hell of a
lot more for
Mark Ackers: it. So again, lots
of insight there. Here's
something that went through my
mind when you were talking and
it feels like you're going to
agree with me. I hate the
phrase, people buy from people.
People buy people. Yeah, I'm
with you. Give us your takeaway,
because it feels like on the
same page, but people still say
that now, people buy people, buy
people. And I think it's a load
of nonsense.
Scott Cowley: No, it's 100% a
lot of nonsense. As I was
saying, if someone could solve
their problem without ever
knowing your name or spending
any time with you, they would.
They don't. They don't want you.
Even in the context of where it
really is that they're buying
you, in the employee, employer
context, they still don't want
you. They want their problem
solved at the end of the day.
There are so many examples of
when a sale gets made, but a
human is not in the loop. I
changed my electricity provider.
I don't care who that company
is. I don't I just looked at the
deals that came up. I don't care
this, like Australian owned and
they do something with the Snowy
Hydro scheme. All that says to
me is that maybe you're adding
cost on that I don't need in my
life. That's an example of where
a sale got made and a person was
not involved at all. Those sort
of sales happen every day. And
there's also the examples of
where, like, as a buyer, and
this is one thing that I think
sellers really struggle with, is
really properly empathising with
the buyer and understanding
because they've never really
been a buyer, but like, buyers
often don't want to talk to you.
They just want their problem
solved. So there, there are
definitely circumstances where
the human, the seller
contributes as a net positive.
I'd probably say there's more
examples where the seller is a
net negative of the
conversation, but the buyers
already decided they need
something and they're going to
buy anyway. They're going to buy
from someone. They just, they
pick that organisation, and then
a seller just has to be involved
to kind of square the
Mark Ackers: circle. It's
interesting if we start to look
to the future, take your example
about switching electricity
providers. If we exaggerate that
point and go far enough back,
you'd have had to have gone
somewhere to speak to someone.
Then it become you could speak
to someone over the phone. Then
it become you could speak to an
agent. Now you don't need to
speak to anyone, and you can do
it. How do you see this playing
out in the future of B to B
sales, where buyers don't need
or want to speak to sales
people? How's this career and
this profession and your mind
going to change? Oh,
Scott Cowley: you hate my answer
here, because I have this debate
with different people at
different times, and I never,
I'm very wishy washy on this
one, because no one can predict
the future. Humans are never
going away, because, especially
in most B to B contexts, the
buyer doesn't even know they
really have a problem. When
there's cold outreach involved,
will there be less sales people.
There's one angle of I can see a
decentralisation starting to
happen, because we've definitely
seen, over the last kind of 20
years, 10 years a centralization
where big businesses just keep
getting bigger. But I can
definitely see a
decentralisation happening where
you then end up with a hell of a
lot more sales people, because
there's just more companies. And
if, even if every company only
has half the number of sales
peoples as the really big
companies, there's still just
more jobs available. But I can
also see the centralization
continuing, and you end up with
like, one seller, three or four
assistants, and like, a really
powerful AI behind them, and.
And you end up with less sellers
because the centralization
continues. It's super wishy
washy answer, because I just
don't know. But at the end of
the day, I think if an
individual is watching this and
they're thinking about their own
career in sales, I think there
will always be a space for sales
people, especially in B to B,
especially in my sweet spot, is
what I'd call me. And you always
have to define that, because mid
market means it's different to
every business. Mid market, to
me, is kind of that 10k a year,
up to about 100k a year, where a
seller is needed to help really
scope and deeply understand if
this buyer actually has the
pain. But it's not a complex
sale that involves buying
committees and multi year sales
processes. It's a it's a much
simpler, what I call a simple
sale. You only really need one
person. You don't need sales
engineers, you don't need
potentially even SDRs, and you
don't need a cold call it to
then hand over to closer. I
definitely didn't answer your
question. I told you that I'm I
don't know the answer your
question, but I gave you two
ideas there.
Mark Ackers: I mean, both ideas,
one will play out, I'm sure, I
suppose, for what it's worth,
how I see this going, I think
the way in which I see sales
leaders and businesses operating
today, it's about, how can we
get our sales reps to do more
selling by removing all the
manual, time consuming elements,
and you think about like the way
the tech landscape has changed
over the last 15 years, I feel
like I sound really old when I
talk about the first year in
sales. I had a company
directory, book, business cards
from the desk that I inherited
from the person that got let go,
and a phone LinkedIn was a CV
Library. But if you think about
all the tech that you now have
on top so businesses are like,
how can we make sellers more
efficient, more effective, spend
more time selling. For me, the
missing piece is, how do we make
the sellers that we have better
at their craft? And if we make
them better at their craft, and
we remove all the time consuming
elements, we naturally need less
salespeople, but the ones that
we have are better and will earn
more. And I think that's where I
agree with you. There will
always be a space for
salespeople. I think the missing
thing is only the good
salespeople. And I think, I
think that's where I see it
going, Yeah,
Scott Cowley: but like, that's
just not human nature. That's
just not how humans end up
responding to these sorts of
things, like, only the good
sales people. Well, what about
when you need to hire someone
like you can either go down the
path of hire a high performer
from somewhere else, but are
they going to be a high
performer for you don't know,
because at the end of the day,
in a lot of the sessions that I
run, I can show people scripting
that's worked for me or that's
worked for previous companies.
And I know it works, but I don't
know if it's going to work for
you. I don't know if it's going
to work for your industry. I
don't know if it's going to work
for your geography. I can't
defend there's no script you can
write. This is exactly how to
sell. So you either go the high
performer route and hope that
they work it out, and you give
them the tools. And one of the
cool things I love about my
sales coaches, it really is
supporting those people as they
come in, or you go the other
angle, and you got to train them
up from somewhere. And this is
where I think it's really nice
to only have high performers,
but if you carve out the middle
performers, there is no space
for those high performers to
appear from somewhere.
Mark Ackers: So no, again, we're
on the same page. When people
talk about like the SDR role
disappearing, I think where are
ies coming from? Yeah. And
actually, just the strategy of
hiring high performers, what a
wish that would be. Yeah. Here's
the problem, high performers
don't want to leave because
they're performing. Well, when
you've got someone applying for
a sales role, they're unlikely
to be a high performer, because
that likely be a side step or a
cut back in commission. Like
there's got to be a real reason
for them. So, no, no, we're
saying the same thing. You're
going to have to hire people.
But it can't just be about,
well, hire anyone, throw loads
of tech at them and make more
efficient more effective. It's
got to be, how can we improve
them and their craft? That's why
I see changing.
Scott Cowley: But is that? Is
that any different to if you
think about kind of the idea of
centralization,
decentralisation, the ebb and
flow, like 30 years ago, there
were a lot less sales people. In
30 years time, will they just be
roughly the same number as a
ratio of the population? Or are
you, are you saying you think
that there will be just a lot
less in general? Because I think
the job of sales has exploded,
but I think it's exploded
without necessarily having them
backing behind it. So we're
almost returning to the norm.
It's a regression of the mean,
as opposed to now is the
outlier, as opposed to now is
the standard that we're going to
Mark Ackers: stay at. Sales
leaders, I guarantee this, the
forecast you're looking at isn't
accurate. Why? Because your reps
have deals that become stuck in
the pipeline, things like
champion leaving, not being
taken to power competitor enters
the deal at the last minute.
They're ghosting. You imagine if
your reps had access on demand
to support where they could get
one to one deal coaching with
one of our expert coaches.
That's what we provide. Your
reps can use it and.
Proactively. Perhaps they've got
a meeting coming up and they
want to ensure they're putting
their best foot forward. They
can book time with a coach and
prepare for that upcoming
meeting. Or perhaps it's
reactively. There's a snag,
there's a last minute problem.
They need help moving an
opportunity forward. They can
book same day coaching with one
of our expert sales coaches and
get help deal coaching gives
your reps every opportunity to
secure the best outcome and keep
your forecast as accurate as
possible. That's fair. I think
when people talk about there
being less sales people, they
don't. They don't acclimatise
the fact that whether to be more
people. You think last, I'm
going to get this wrong now. But
what maybe last 30 years, the
population has gone up by 2
billion people, something like
that. Who knows, right? But I
remember it being six, it feels
like it's eight now. So you will
have more sales people there,
but I think the onus will be on
removing low performers, mid
performers, giving them the
right tech stack, but focusing
on developing them. And doing
that quickly. You'll have to
hire people that aren't top
performers, but it's how can we
improve their craftsmanship?
Because whilst you can give them
loads of tech stack, prospects
have their own tech stack as
well, and it sort of cancel each
other out, you need to have that
craftsmanship. Well, you're
Scott Cowley: also getting the
idea of, are sales people born
or made? And I'm 100% in anyone
can learn to sell. Now, not
everyone should learn to sell.
But anyone can I have a this is
like a secondhand story, but one
of my I know a recruiter who
just can't read people. He's on
the spectrum, and he just does
not understand facial reactions
and those sorts of things. But
what he did, and he's a super
high performer in his space,
what he did is he learned if I
say x, the response will be y.
If they then say y, and my
response of z will move them
through as we're going. So he
was forced to learn how to sell,
but really he was just forced to
learn how people work. And
that's the example of, like most
people think, that sort of
person who can't read another
person, there's no way they're
going to be able to sell.
Because, as you were saying, a
lot of people think sales is
about people being sell from,
sorry, people buy from people.
In that example, he just learned
a
Mark Ackers: process. Is that
the example that you spoke about
earlier, where you've learned to
sell a product, appreciate
recruitment would be more of a
service, but you can productize
it in this example, where he's
learned the process like you're
talking about. But actually, if
you put him in another
situation, he wouldn't be a
great salesperson. Is that what
you're saying? Probably
Scott Cowley: okay. But if you
think about your question
around, are we only are we? Are
we going to have high performing
sales people? If I'm a business
leader, I don't really care if
my team can sell I care that
they can sell
Mark Ackers: my product, agreed
and that. Because why would you
care about how they sell other
products and services, but very
few businesses have a product
that just sells itself, right?
Like very few, most people have
the kind of problem that you
spoke about with the
cybersecurity firm. People buy
it, but you've got to go out
there and educate people. You've
got to make them aware. Not many
people live this inbound life
order taking. And then you could
argue, well, they don't need to
be great at sales, because it's
the inbound life and it's
ordered. It's order taking.
Scott Cowley: Oh, but I love the
outreach guy. He talks about,
build a product that people just
want to buy and build a sales
team that can sell any product.
If you can get both of those,
you're going to have a unicorn,
like no matter what, which is
really hard to do, by the way,
both independently, building a
product that people just want to
buy with a mediocre sales team,
or building a mediocre product
with a great sales team that's
hard enough to then do both.
That
Mark Ackers: is probably why
it's called a unicorn fair.
Fair. So I want to get to the
why, right? Why do people buy
it? I suppose just before we get
there, we kind of needed to
conclude the start in our tune
story when you got let go for
non performance, when that act
did finally fall and you had
that meeting, it sounds like you
were in a place where you
agreed. You said, Look,
Scott Cowley: I was already
talking to recruiters. I was
already in the process of
leaving. What did you learn
about
Mark Ackers: yourself, though,
when you look back, because it
feels like that might have been
a real penny drop moment for you
that you have to figure out that
why? What did that period of
nine months not selling having
been in the top 10% elsewhere,
what did that teach you about
yourself?
Scott Cowley: There was a lot of
humility that had to come from
that. I also, up until that
point, I was very immature, and
I kind of every role I'd been
in. When I left, I didn't have
any friends left in that
organisation. I burnt bridges
every single job or client I've
subsequently worked with,
literally from that moment, from
when I when I did get fired, I
have a relatively good
relationship with maybe, like
one or two, like a handful, that
there's there's things have gone
wrong, but even when that
happens, I still think I have a
pretty good relationship with
them. So there's a lot of
growing up that I had to do at
that point. And I was in my
early 20s at this point, so I
was still pretty young. But then
also, it just taught me that you
have to deeply understand why
someone is buying your product.
You have to understand I break
it down into three. There's
three Whys most people are
really good at one of. Them, but
it's the last one that they're
really good at.
Mark Ackers: So I've been really
looking forward to talking to
you about the three whys. Let's
just imagine someone listening
doesn't know what what you're on
about. Bring it to life for us,
the three whys, what those three
are. And then let's dive into
why people are only good at one
of them and
Scott Cowley: etc. So the three
whys, and it's from your buyer's
perspective, not from a
salesperson's perspective. Why
buy anything? Why do any change
at all? Because, as we were
talking about earlier, if an
organisation could have their
pain solved without ever talking
to you, let alone buying from
you, they would. So why does
that organisation have to do
anything or buy anything? Why
buy now? Why not last year? Why
not next year? Because if you
don't have to make a decision,
it's just human nature that you
want you'll naturally delay that
decision. And the one that
people are really good at is,
Why buy you? Why buy your
product? And almost everyone
that I work with, they can
answer that third one super
easily. Almost anyone should be
able to answer that third one,
because it's really why, once
you've already decided you want
roughly what you're selling, or
once your buyers decided roughly
what you're selling, why you as
opposed to competitors, all
three of those. But it is in
order to because, if you just
have Why buy now, well, they
haven't even decided they want
to buy anything in the first
place, and no matter how good
your product is, no matter how
painful The problem is that
you're solving, you're still
only solving maybe one, 1% of
their pain, because everyone has
1000s of problems. I deal with
every day, and especially if
you're selling into relatively
senior leadership, if nothing
else, they're recruiting all the
time, and they're worried about
their top performers are going
to leave. You probably don't
solve that problem with your
product, unless you're a
recruitment firm. But like,
you're probably not solving the
number one thing on their mind.
So you have to give them the
number one thing for their
company at the at a minimum. So
why buy anything is by far the
most important. Why do you have
to change it all? Then why buy
now? And the cool thing about
this, I worked with a company
who just got this completely
wrong, and it's a good story
behind it. They were selling to
sporting organisations, and they
were mostly selling to Premier
League teams. That was like, who
they were really going after,
and why buy anything? It was
like this statistics programme
around the players and how to
build a team. Why buy anything?
A lot of them were bought in,
like a lot of the I can't
remember the job title, but a
lot of them were 100% Yep, cool.
We like this. We want this. Why?
By now, they got completely
wrong. The person that I was
working with kept getting the
response from their really an
influencer, not even a buyer.
Our budgets get reset on the
first of, I think first of
August. That's the new Premier
League season, right? Why? By
now they were looking like the
first of August was their thing.
It was also, it was budget
reasons as well. The budgets for
that organisation reset on that
day. But also the transfer
window opened up. However, when
they reached out to every single
one of their buyers, and they
claim to have about four or five
teams ready to go. All the teams
went, Oh no, the budget's
already assigned. So they just
completely messed up the Why buy
now. They had Why buy you like
they're all all of the, let's
call it heads of performance. I
can't remember the exact job
title. We're all on board with
why buy this organization's
product. But they messed up the
Why buy now? And they had to
wait an entire year, well, about
10 months before the budget
conversation came up again, and
they were able to even do this
because it was not a cheap
product. It was not a
discretionary product. They
could have just just purchased,
even when you get why buy
anything? Why buy now is
probably the hardest. It's
probably the one that the buyer
is going to struggle the most to
answer, but it has to be in that
order, because if you don't have
Why buy anything, they're not
even going to entertain you long
enough to get to why buy now.
And if they don't entertain that
long enough, and they have like
that conversation, and they've
got a buying committee, well,
what happens when your your
champion, reaches out to, let's
say it's a CRO they then talk to
the CEO, and they're like, hey,
I want to buy this product. They
go, cool. What are the
alternatives? They go, look to
market, and they find something
else. Why buy you is the moment
you have to drop in there. Maybe
they have to do three tenders or
something like that, so you have
to have a good reason at the end
there. But all three of those
are vital, and they're vital in
that order. And that's kind of
one of the biggest things I
learned from that failed job. I
didn't know why they would buy
anything. I didn't know what the
pain was. That was was big
enough that I never even got to
Why buy now
Mark Ackers: it's a really
interesting example you've just
given. And whilst I don't want
to hone in on this football
example, I think the bigger
point that I'm making is not
understanding your craft, but
you said it earlier, not
understanding how buyers buy in
that in their world, and the
reason the football example,
kind of irritates me. So I'm a
big football fan myself, right?
If I was going to sell into that
market, I would know the
transfer window opens at the
first of August. I would know
the financial fair play, or PSR,
which. Do is about profit and
sustainability rules and
financial fair play, so they
have to spend certain amount of
money each window. I would know
that, and I would think to
myself, well, you're not going
to wait and have a recruitment
meeting on the first of August.
You're gonna be planning who
you're gonna be buying, January,
February, March, maybe even two,
three years out. Like sometimes
football clubs track players for
several years before they buy
them. So it feels like a huge
mistake not knowing how your
company clients or in prospects
buy to get the timeframe wrong.
That feels like actually the
biggest mistake they could be
making.
Scott Cowley: Yeah, and that
idea of understanding the
seasonality of your customer is
huge and understanding. And this
is where, like some businesses,
the seasonality is so easy. HR
tech, for example, they will the
sale will happen in q4 the
implementation will happen in q1
that's just kind of HR tech.
That's how it gets purchased.
When I was selling the yoga
studio management tool, mind
body, if they did not have a big
January, that business didn't
exist at the end of the year. If
they didn't have a big
September, they didn't make any
profit for that year. So
understanding the seasonality of
how that fits in, but as you
said, like they're not buying
the tool on the first of
January. Interestingly enough,
though, because I sold that
product, the mind body online, I
sold that in Australia, and I
sold that in the UK. The
seasonality is the same, which I
thought was super weird, because
it's actually flipped in
Australia, January is summer. In
the UK, January is winter, and
then September, obviously spring
or autumn, depending on but the
January one kind of makes sense.
It's like, okay, New year, new
me, New Year's resolution, gyms
and yoga studios do really well
that time, but September was,
like, totally unintuitive that
it'll be both not 100% why? To
this day, September was always
the time. I've kind of got some
theories, but understanding that
the seasonality of your
customer, and it might not be
intuitive, but you've got to
then also as a seller, and this
is what comes down to honing
your craft. Understand, if
that's the seasonality, when do
they actually have to make the
purchase? When do they actually
have to start the
implementation? Let's say your
product, just as an example, has
a three month pilot, and you
just that's your sales process.
That's what has to happen. So if
someone needs it ready to go by
the first of Jan, at a very
minimum, they need to go start
three months before that. But
really, they're probably gonna
need a month in between the
pilot and the implementation to
do all the paperwork, which
means you need four months,
which we're getting back to,
what October, September,
whatever month it works out to
be. And then think, like, you
probably got to go a month
earlier for budget approvals and
legal red lines. And, like, just
really working out, okay,
someone wants to start on that
day. When do they actually have
to make the decision? It's like,
six months earlier.
Mark Ackers: Do you think most
sales people know the
seasonality of their buyers?
Scott Cowley: Most know the good
ones? Yeah, even if it's just
intuitive, I think a lot of kind
of top performers, maybe not a
lot, but like a decent number of
top performers, just intuitively
learn how to sell that product,
and therefore intuitively learn
the seasonality of it. And then
often they don't change
industries. Because if you think
about recruitment, like if you
change from one recruitment
provider to the to another, and
you're still, I got a friend who
she recruits financial crime. So
she deals with banks. Banks are
the same regardless of whether
she's at whichever company it
is, so like, there, she doesn't
have to learn how to sell, and
she's actually very good at
this, but she doesn't have to
learn how to sell. She only has
to learn how bank seasonality
works from a recruitment
perspective. So you don't
necessarily, yeah, you don't
have to go further, but direct
answer your question, no, I
don't think most understand it
at a deep enough level that they
could then apply it to their
next
Mark Ackers: job. I agree with
you. That's that's the second
one. The first one is, Why buy
anything? Now here's the
challenges that I want to see of
you, if you see as well, is that
requires you to almost challenge
your prospect, push them away,
ask tough questions, almost not
make the happy years assumption
that, ah, we're talking you must
want to buy. This is the why
can't you keep doing what you're
doing? Why? Why would you you
surely wouldn't want to rip out
and replace what you've
currently got. Why not wait six
months like talk to you about
the difficulties that sellers
have with with that around
please.
Scott Cowley: Okay, so I worked
with a dude in Switzerland who
was selling a package that would
allow NGOs to train people where
there was no electricity, like a
projector, Speaker bundle, and
let's just say it's 10,000 euros
he could easily get on the phone
with NGOs, and just like go
through a discovery call and
learn that they deeply had the
problem of, let's say Doctors
Without Borders, or however, the
French, the French pronunciation
is, they drop in a team into,
let's just say Egypt, and
they're going somewhere. Like,
right in the desert, and they're
going to try and train up some
some people out there from a
medical perspective, but there's
no electricity, so this thing
had a portable battery. It had
like, a pop up screen, like all
those sorts of things. The NGOs
loved it. They were like, Yes,
super exciting. He'd then have a
demo so discover quickly, then
have a demo conversation where
they'd go through more details
off the back of that. He then
put together a proposal, which
would take about two hours. And
he needed sign off very small
company. He needed sign off from
the founder for pricing that
whole thing, 30 minute
discovery, hour demo, two hours
of his time, plus a little bit
of sign off from the founder
before they ever had to say,
yes, we're interested. So, like,
instead of thinking about it as
does the buy? Like, do you need
to push the buyer go the other
way? Like, why are you wasting
your time on someone four hours
that's half a working day before
they give you anything? When I
showed him that, and we worked
through that, he was pissed,
because he's dealing like, spend
a lot of time with these tiny
NGOs who, as much as they want
it, they're never going to get
the funding allocated, because
the NGO world, especially the
way that, let's not go down
there, but like, just that's a
hard sell to spend any money on
this product. Even though they
wanted it, they had no idea how
to even get the budget for it.
So he ended up, like, we
basically flipped it around, and
he came back, and he's like,
Yeah, I'm saving two days a week
just not talking to the wrong
people. And also, he looks so
much better to his the founding
team, because he's not pulling
them in all the time to, like,
give approval on stuff that was
never going to close. So instead
of thinking about it from the
buyer's perspective, I always
think about as a seller, is this
person worth your time? Have
they proven that they're worth
your time? And yes, challenge
them, but like, it's your fault
if you go and spend a lot of
time with this person and they
were never qualified in the
first place.
Mark Ackers: So I agree with
everything you said there. I
think we're talking about
different things. What I'm
saying is, when you speak to
let's just say you're speaking
to the right person. Sales
people will struggle, in my
experience, to understand why
they're going to buy versus
because the easiest thing to do
is stick with what you've got,
right? Everyone's got something
in place, whether that's manual,
whether that's whether that's a
competitor, or, yeah, it could
be something like spreadsheets,
right? Whatever, they've got
something in place, or they
don't realise they've got the
pain. My point is, sales people
struggle to go but why would you
change? Why? Why? Why couldn't
you stay the same? And it's
because we don't want to ask
those difficult questions, what
you're talking about. And again,
couldn't agree more is, and I
learned this too late in my
career. But spend your time with
people that can actually buy and
want to buy, I feel unwell when
I think about early in my
career, how many trips to
London, trips out the office.
How many zoom calls I had with
people that simply could never
buy or would never buy, but I
felt like it was my duty to
spend time with them, because
these are the leads I had, the
meetings would be put on for me.
And what I never really, truly
appreciated was, if I fell in
this role, no one's gonna go.
Yeah, but you spent your time
with the wrong people, so don't
worry about it. Yeah, they're
gonna say you've not hit your
number. You've gotten
Scott Cowley: it's one of the, I
mean, even just that last thing,
it's one of the best things
about sales, and the worst
things about sales as as a
career, it's really clear
whether you're achieving your
goal or not, whereas. And then
the best thing about that is it
means it's also really easy to
get paid a lot, because it's
directly attributable. If you
contribute a million quid, okay,
you're easily worth 100 maybe
200,000 pounds, if not more. And
I'm talking cost here, as
opposed to salary. Whereas you
go the other way, and it's like,
okay, you work in the customer
support team. How much value did
you actually attribute to the
bottom line of the business?
It's really hard to measure. And
even if you're the absolute best
support tech on the planet, are
you going to contribute nearly
as much as a salesperson who put
a million quid on the bottom
line? I mean, maybe, but, like,
it's so hard to make that
argument where if the sales team
just goes, yeah, cool, we added
a million pounds, super easy.
But the other side is it's so
measurable, if you don't sell
anything, which I did, once
you're not giving the ROI to the
business, you're going to be
gone pretty quickly, whether
voluntary or involuntary. So
it's one of the one of the best
parts and worst parts about
sales. Where
Mark Ackers: did you learn this
stuff? Like, obviously you had
your penny dropping moment when
you had to figure out the why.
Why do people buy but you've
obviously got on the journey
where you've learned the three
whys. You've created your own
frameworks. How did you go from
being let go for non
performance, and I appreciate
you were successful before that,
but from being let go for non
performance to being able to sit
here today and really have such
a strong grasp on selling your
own frameworks, your own
approach. How did you learn all
this? So
Scott Cowley: the probably the
easiest answer, is books and
then applying it, reading a lot
and then trying to apply it as
well as, like, I'm one of those
weird people that always knew I
was going into sales. Like, I
decided at about 15 I was going
to go into sales. I ended up
getting an accounting degree
because I was following the Tim
Ferriss advice of get two skills
that don't normally go together,
and then put them together so I
can read a balance sheet like
anyone's business, and I can
build a cash flow statement. But
then I always wanted to go into
sales. And the way that I ended
up learning that it's both on
the job, I don't think you can
learn sales from a textbook, but
you do have to. You do have to
be open to new ideas and
understand that your ideas are
never going to be as, not
necessarily as good, but like as
varied as if you go and read a
book from someone else. So read
a book, then apply it. I'm
actually a really big believer,
and I try and push a lot of my
coaches and my clients, to make
one change every day, if you
like it, keep the change at the
end of the day, if you don't
revert back, if you do that
every working day, that's 200
changes you've made your sales
process by the end of the sorry,
200 changes in a year, your
sales process is going to be
completely different every
single year, but it's only going
to get better, because you're
only keeping the ones that make
sense. So I think it's really
important, as I say, read the
books, listen to the podcasts.
I've done a number of courses.
I'm a big fan of Benjamin
Dennehy, UK's most hated sales
trainer, big fan of his. I just
finished gap selling by Keenan.
That was awesome, the number one
book, and I've given this book
away at least a dozen times, if
not more. Is Jeffrey Gitomer the
Ultimate Sales Bible.
Mark Ackers: I think it's just
called the sales Bible. Sales
Bible, black book. Yeah, yeah,
no,
Scott Cowley: it's blue. This
one, the latest 120, 15, is
blue. He's got a bunch of them.
I'm a big fan of that. So what I
and what I did with that one?
This is when I I first learned
to sell I would read one chapter
of his, because the way he
builds his books, he writes a
column, and then he basically
takes 50 columns and rewrites
them a little bit and puts it
into a book. So he writes a
column every week for a
newspaper. So it's very, very
digestible, maybe two pages
worth of content, maybe four at
most, read it and try and
implement it that day. That's
that's how I think that's the
only way to learn sales, because
it's not academic, or it's not
something you can learn without
actually applying. So you've got
it, you've got to actually be
selling as well. I don't know if
I answered
Mark Ackers: your question
there. No, you definitely
answered the question in the
sense of, you've taken it into
your own hands, right? You've
gone out there and you've looked
for content in a way in which
you can digest it and understand
it. The penny for me that I'm a
few years older than you, just
the fact that I read that sales
Bible by Jeffrey Germer a number
of years before.
Scott Cowley: Yeah, I had the
original because I got it before
2015 and then since then, it's
always been the 2015 one. But I
love that
Mark Ackers: book. No, I it was
what think, I think it was the
first sales book I ever read.
And I remember reading on
holiday and someone took the
piss army, like, just someone in
the pool, because, yeah, the
sales Bible and they and I
remember like, just looking at
him, thinking, well, this book's
amazing. Like, you know what
you're about, but it was just
some old blown took the piss out
of me for it. But anyway, my
point being, you go out, you
found content, you digest it.
Here's the here's the bit that
people don't do, though, and
anyone listen to this podcast
will be able to relate to this.
How many times do you hear
something, read something? Think
that's a great idea? Yeah, maybe
even on this podcast. And I
suppose that's the one dynamic.
People listen to this are doing
that already, because they're
already because they're already
listening to the podcast. How
many times you hear a good idea
and think that's a good idea,
I'm going to do something, and
then you never, ever do it. And
that's the bit that you're
talking about, the most
important bit, putting it into
practice. And that's where I
found coaching is the most
effective way. So talk about
your experience. Obviously,
you're a coach with my sales
coach, and you've done that for
a long time, but what about
being coached yourself to be
held accountable and put things
into practice. Coaching
Scott Cowley: and the
accountability element, some
people need different things out
of coaching. Me. Personally, I
have my own coach, and he's not
actually a sales guy, but he
very much holds me accountable
to every session. Okay, what are
you actually going to do after
this, what's your one thing? And
even I was the coach to one of
the my sales coach team just
before recording this, and we
talked about a lot of things.
And I said, okay, cool. Now
you've you've got a sales call
in nine minutes. Which one are
you going to apply, and how are
you going to apply it? And she
said, we're going to do this.
And I said, Cool, then let's do
it right now, and you roleplay
it together. But then I think
the hardest part about coaching,
from a coachees perspective, is
it can be anything like my coach
is a is more of a life coach,
even though I kind of hate that
term, but he's, he's more of a
life coach than anything else.
We kind of just have a
conversation and it ends with,
so what are you actually going
to do from here? As long as you
actually have that conversation,
it triggers something, and
you're typically more likely to
take action, especially if you
then commit to it. It's like,
how are you going to apply that?
Well, I'm going to get this to
you by this day at this time,
and then if you don't, well,
there's a huge. When you're
talking to that's responsible to
say, Hey, Scott, you said you
were going to do this. You have
my number on WhatsApp. Why
didn't you do it?
Mark Ackers: Give me some ideas
when you've given people that
change. One thing change. What
are some of the changes that you
see people make to kind of
inspire people listening to this
Scott Cowley: podcast? Yeah, a
big one is what I call the
Sunday night test. And this is
like, I'm almost certain I came
up with this, but let's be
honest, Nothing is new under the
sun. Most people that I work
with in the sales world, they
don't actually talk to their
customers in language their
customer needs to hear. So I'll
make that real for you. Do you
know what a widget is? I would
think so it's if you crack a can
of Guinness. Oh no, oh, thing,
oh sorry, yes, busy. That's what
a widget is, right? I thought,
you know, like a widget on a
dashboard? No, that's my point.
The it's not the original, but
like that, that physical thing
is actually called a widget in
the Guinness. Can in the
Guinness, or any, any soft drink
that adds
Mark Ackers: Guinness, can't
taste nice in Australia. No,
Scott Cowley: it's different.
It's different. But then again,
it's not as good in the UK,
Scotland. No, go to Dublin, and
it's
Mark Ackers: just going there
next month. I can't wait. Yeah,
it's amazing. Anyway, sorry,
totally off track. So that's
Scott Cowley: what a widget is,
actually, that thing inside a
Guinness can but could you take
a synonym for that is a gadget.
Now, if you walk into the
Guinness factory and you start
talking about gadgets, kind of
the same thing. Gadget,
etymologically, comes from
widget. It's the same root for
that word. But if you're talking
at cross purposes, they're not
hearing you, and every time you
say gadget, they're like, What
is he talking about? And you're
talking about the widget. So the
Sunday night test, the first and
most important thing to remember
about it is you've got to talk
to your customers in their
language, the way they need to
hear it. It's not about being
accurate with information from
your perspective. It's about
being for them hearing you
specifically. Now, what actually
is it? It's Imagine your
customer is lying awake on a
Sunday night at 2am in a cold
sweat, and they are dealing with
the pains that you solve. How
are they describing that pain to
themselves, and exactly what
language are they using? And I
mean, I can probably give you an
example. I don't imagine that my
sales coach prospects are
actually thinking, we need
coaching. They're probably
thinking, maybe one angle is,
why is my team underperforming?
Maybe another angle is, how do I
support my absolute top
performers to get even better?
They're not thinking, I need my
team to get some coaching. So
the Sunday night test then leads
into when you're cold calling
someone. Hey, we sell coaching.
Oh, cool. I don't need coaching.
Hang up. Hey, we help top
performers get even better. Oh,
I'm intrigued. Let's keep
talking. So if there's one thing
you can change, it's really
deeply. Get into the Sunday
night test on the pitch that you
have. Does it pass? Does your
audience actually think about
the problem that you solve and
use the language that you're
already using with them? Because
again, if you walk into the
Guinness factory and start
trying to sell them a better way
of doing that little thing, and
you keep saying the gadget
inside your cans, even if they
like cognitively understand it,
they've got to think about it,
because it's actually called a
widget.
Mark Ackers: You've signed your
team up to another E Learning
course. You've hired a trainer
to come in and run a workshop.
But guess what? Six months
later, pipeline and performance
is still lumpy, my sales coach
turns learning into doing. We
evaluate everyone on your team,
we identify with real data the
critical gaps that are holding
them back, and then we remedy
it. We match each person to
their dream coach and provide
consistent one to one coaching
to help them fulfil their
potential and hit the number
less one size fits all,
training, more personalised
support, which results in the
growth of your team. That's
predictable sales execution.
That's my sales coach. I love
the Sunday night test. I have a
similar version of that, where
it's your prospect comes home
for dinner and they've had a bad
day. How do they moan to their
partner? Yeah, here's the
problem that sales reps have
with this. It's twofold. One,
most sellers have never done the
job of the person they're
selling to, yep, so they can't
truly understand their world.
But secondly, when you think
about how lots of organisations
onboard sales reps come and
spend time with the tech team.
So the tech team do what
technical people do, and they
tell the sales person all the
technical knowledge, how to
build reports, how to customise,
how to log in, password resets,
dashboards, data, widgets,
gadgets, etc, glance up with the
marketing team. Well, the
marketing team will give you all
the marketing buzzwords of the
product and how it works, and
awards they've won, and why
they're so great, how they stack
up to the competition. You'll
then spend time with other
people across the business, and
they will continue to speak to
you in their language, in their
world, which is very much
organisation language, right?
It's their own internal
vocabulary that they've created
over a period of time. What
rarely happens is someone sits
down. Of a salesperson goes, let
me tell you all about the person
you selling to, their world,
their language, and that's why
so many pitches when you go out
to the three Whys why us? I know
you're right. When you say out
of those three things, people
get that one right. The most
people still mess that one up,
because they, of course, all
they do is talk about
themselves. And that's why so
many pictures aren't using the
language of the prospect.
They're using technical
language, marketing language
jargon, and it confuses people.
I had a cold call today, and if
you think this should be just
something that's easy to say yes
to, for me, it's someone that's
based in this city, in
Newcastle, I still they've
called me twice now I still
don't know the name of their
business, and both phone calls,
I've said from where, sorry,
I've still not clarified,
Phil's. I don't want to feel
stupid and ask for a third time
on each call, because prospects
don't do that. But all I could
get out of this individual was
that it's something to do with
data, something to do with
making it streamlined so we can
use AI on it, right? I haven't
got a bloody clue what that
does. It makes no sense to me.
Whereas, if they would have
said, look, and spoke in my
language about a problem that
would resonate me and led with,
I'm just around the corner. Do
you fancy meeting for a coffee?
That's really hard to say no to.
It's a local business. He's the
co founder of the business.
Feels like someone that would be
good to meet, but the phone call
that I had a couple of weeks ago
than the one I had chasing up
today, which isn't all about
like data and infrastructure, it
just doesn't speak in my
language, and that's where it
goes wrong. So that kind of ties
to your point. We are seeing so
many reps fail at what you'd
call the Sunday night test.
We're not enabling them in the
right
Scott Cowley: way. You're right.
And if you think from a business
perspective, you can do the
enablement, but from an
individual perspective, my
answer would be, that's nice,
and it's not your fault. That's
the way the training is, but the
numbers still your
responsibility. Go talk to some
customers, like, how hard can it
be find your auntie's best mate
who happens to be in the
industry, and just spend an hour
with them? Just like, hey, how
do you think about this? Have
you ever heard of this company?
But
Mark Ackers: this is a
difference, isn't it, Scott,
this is the people that see sows
as something they've fallen
into. They see sales as a thing
that they do, and they don't
have accountability. They don't
take responsibility for their
results. They lack the
motivation desire, they lack the
commitment. And again, people
listening to podcasts don't fall
into that bracket, right?
Because they're already doing
something about it. But you're
right. It's about Turton
Academy, but I think it comes
back down to that mindset of
imposter syndrome, need for
approval, reaching out, having
those conversations, almost
admitting I need help, I don't
know. I'm trying to learn, and
that's very difficult for people
Scott Cowley: to do. It's also
really difficult when you're in
the company like and you've been
there for a year or two or
three, to go to actually admit
that to yourself, let alone
admit that to the organisation.
Because could you imagine
someone and some leaders would
be more receptive to this? I
imagine you'd be more receptive
because this is still a small
business. It's on its way up,
but it's still pretty small. But
could you imagine working for a
fortune 500 as a sales rep and
going to your leadership and
going, I don't really understand
what we do. I don't fully get
it. Can I go talk to some
customers? I can't see anyone
ever doing that. So there's,
there's almost a like, you have
to do it by stealth, and you
have to decide that sales is a
career as well as a profession,
as opposed to it's a job. Did
Mark Ackers: you do any of that
in those nine months when you
weren't selling? No, and is it
for reasons you've said,
Scott Cowley: I had a lot of
growing up to do before that
role. So, yeah, it's a really
good point. I didn't do that. I
do it now. I definitely do it
now if I need to, but I'm also
my audience. I just love talking
to them. I just have friends in
this space. It's kind of just
what I do. So I can also
empathise with someone who's
like, Man, I sell tables. I
don't like the people that buy
my product. I don't really want
to go and spend time with them.
I can kind of kind of empathise
with that. And table is just a
random example. But like so many
sales jobs, I get it like it's
not an interesting thing. It's
not a sexy thing to be selling.
But at the same time, I just
come back to do you want to be
good at your job? And if you do,
then you got to put the effort
in. It's a profession. So one of
my clients right now is a an E
Learning product for
accountants, and specifically
all accountants, that is an
actual profession. You have to
be to call yourself an
accountant, you have to have a
qualification, and you have to
keep doing continuous
professional CDP, CPD, whatever
the acronym is. She then sells a
product that makes doing those
hours easy, but ultimately, like
everyone who treats their
business as a profession has to
put the time in. I know also one
of the other coaches here who I
have a lot of time for, Neil,
when he was either an SDR or an
SDR manager, he used to put time
aside during the nine to five
and. To go and do his own
research into the industry, into
sales techniques, a couple hours
a week. It wasn't a lot, but it
was still enough time. So you
can do this in a nine to five
but you have to decide that it's
a profession, it's not a job.
Because if you think about it,
if you're if you're a barista.
Now, some people treat that as a
profession, I'd say 90 to 95% if
not higher, treated as a job.
You don't really need new
training. If you're a barista,
if you know how to use the
machine, you know how to you
don't have to go and do it, and
you can do your job really,
really well. That's just not
true in sales. If you want to be
really good at this job, it is
always changing, but also you
need to always be growing,
because if you're not, someone
else is going to be growing, and
they're going to beat you to it,
and especially if you always
want to stay as an individual
contributor, which I think most
people want to stay there. Like,
my first management job did not
end well, and it kind of burned
me. I never really wanted to
manage people again.
Subsequently, like, I got forced
back into it, because that's
kind of the direction my career
is going. And it took a lot of
soul searching, and I read a few
books, and I, like, I had to do
a lot of work on myself to go,
okay, I can actually be a good
manager. And then I added in as
a question to all of my team,
like, start, stop, continue.
What am I doing that? What am I
not doing? You want me to start
doing? What am I doing that you
want me to stop doing? Like,
you're like, hey, this, I hate
this. What do you want me to
continue doing? Because I don't,
I don't know everything, and
every person is different, and
that's obviously in the sales
world of like, being a leader
within sales, but that's true
with your prospects as well.
Like, there's things that you
need to learn, that you're doing
that you need to stop doing.
There's things you need to learn
that you that you need to start
doing, and there's things you're
pretty good at that you want to
continue doing, but they never,
as you said, they're never going
to give you that feedback
directly. So you have to
experiment. That's where the one
experiment a day comes in the
market will tell you, if you do
enough reps that you're going in
the right direction. And if you
exactly like that guy who's cold
calling, like, let's also take a
second, he's actually doing the
dials, and he's following up, so
he's doing the initial work,
which is the bit that a lot of
people don't do to begin with.
Then he needs to hone it. He
needs to experiment. Change his
pitch a little bit, see what
happens. As you said, if he had
have said it in one certain way,
that'll work for you. You got to
remember, though you're only one
prospect, he might be killing it
with the rest of his audience
the way he's reaching out to
them. He probably isn't. But
like most organisations, if you
if you look at most pipelines,
odds are any one person that the
sell seller talks to will not
close. Let's say you got a 30%
close rate. That's one in three
people who even make it to an
opportunity will buy from you.
So two out of three won't. So no
matter what you do, you got to
remember you're starting from a
baseline of this probably won't
work, but if you don't try it,
it definitely won't work. That
whole idea of the enemy of the
great is good. That was
Mark Ackers: interesting when
you spoke about raising your
hand internally, saying, Look, I
don't understand. I need help.
I'll tell you where that really
plays out. One when you just
hired someone. Yeah, you can
easily do it then, well, you say
that, it can be difficult. To
say, Look, you know the job, he
was hired before. I don't know
if I'm any good at it, right? It
can be, can I go and speak to
customers, but to say I'm
struggling or don't quite get it
can be different. But the one
where I see it the most is and
this, this is what always seems
to happen, is top performers get
promoted into a manager role.
Yeah, yep. Now, here's the
thing, it's totally different
job. Yeah, they're not, they're
not the same skill set at all,
and that's where it's difficult
to go. You just promoted me to a
manager role. I don't know how
to do it, and you obviously
alluded to it there. Your first
manager role didn't end. Well,
what? What happened there?
Scott Cowley: I was a top
performer. It was, yeah, top
performer. I moved to the UK to
become a sales manager at mind
body. That was the reason didn't
stay in Australia. I Australia.
Also, the Rugby World Cup was
on, and I always wanted to go to
a World Cup, 2003 Rugby World
Cup 15. Oh, okay, yeah, where
Australia made the final? This
is where I show my age again,
because that's when England beat
Australia in the 2003 final.
See, I'm thinking of the one
where Australia knocked out
England in the pool. Yeah, I
forgot about that one. But no, I
came over for that and also to
there was no manager role in
Australia, but I knew that was
the next step, a little bit
though. I I pushed too hard, too
young. I was a good seller of
mind body. I was not a good
salesperson. I was also very
young, so I got into that role,
and I kind of didn't understand
what management actually was.
And the guy who was mentoring me
on the way in the UK, some
things happened in his life, and
he actually left the country
pretty soon after I was promoted
there wasn't really good now, I
have to give them credit,
though, there was an in house
trainer, and I spent every week
I spent an hour one on one with
him. So like, they really tried.
They actually did the opposite
of what most organisations do.
They had training just for us
managers. They also had, I had
one on one support. That guy
also had written a book on this
and was doing a PhD in coaching
and training. So like mind body,
really, I had all the tools. I
still as a manager. I failed. I
wasn't very good at the
management thing. And. Um, these
days, I've had to learn skills,
and I've had to I've also read a
lot of books. I also the first
management role where I think I
succeeded. I found a great
leader. I was working for an
organisation where the CEO, when
I was head of sales, he just
knew what he was doing when it
came to managing people. So I
think that one of the lessons to
take away from this is, go find
mentors. Go find people who are
one or two steps ahead of you,
ideally, and work with them. And
other people have already been
on this journey. Like, let's be
honest, there's not that much
new going on. Most things are
they've been solved before. They
just haven't been solved by you
in the exact way. So like, There
are mentors out there who can
help, or coaches out there who
can directly help with the
problem you've got.
Mark Ackers: Here's the
interesting you don't even need
to go and find a mentor or coach
anymore, because there is a
company out there that will
match you to your perfect sales
coach and mentor in my sales
coach, and you could be one of
their coaches that they get
matched to. And that probably
brings us to a nice sort of
concluding chapter. You spend
your time working with many
people, but one of your key
areas is working with founders
that aren't natural sales people
or consider themselves sales
people, and that's really your
passion. What's the fastest
mindset shift that founders that
aren't sales people need to make
when they start working with
Scott Cowley: you, the first
shift is that anyone can be a
salesperson. Do you truly
believe that anyone, anyone can,
not everyone should, but anyone
can. And if you, if you are a
founder of a business that
requires sales and you want the
business to succeed, you
Mark Ackers: have to learn to
sell. Is it easier, though?
Founder led selling? No,
Scott Cowley: it's not easier.
It's different. As a founder,
when you've been doing it for a
few years, you are a true
industry expert. You're not
really a salesperson. Now, the
bit that is easier is when you
get in the room and you have the
title of founder or CEO, people
listen when you get in the room
and you have the title of SDR or
sales person, you have to earn
the right so it is very
different, but you got to
remember, founders, sales is
only one of their jobs. It's the
most important one, because a
business without revenue is just
a hobby, but it's still only one
of their jobs. So I wouldn't
necessarily say it's easier,
because they don't get nearly as
many reps to try new stuff, but
directly, the number one thing
that they have to change to
begin with is anyone can learn
to sell, and you've put yourself
in a position where you either
learn or your business doesn't
survive. That's that's the long
and the
Mark Ackers: short of it. And
what's the difference? Then, if
you believe anyone can sell, but
doesn't mean they should, what's
the difference between those
that shouldn't, shouldn't. It's
a
Scott Cowley: life choice. So in
this context, especially if
you've chosen a path that
requires sales, you either have
to get good at it, or the
business doesn't exist. That's
kind of burning the boats.
That's the whole idea of you've
backed yourself into a corner.
That person has to learn how to
sell. And if you've chosen a
sales job and you actually want
this thing to work. Because the
cool thing about sales is every
sale is slightly different,
especially when you get into
decent sized kind of the 10k
plus deals, as opposed to
selling something on the street,
where it's just a repeat that's
the same thing time and time
again. There is a skill set
there. But every sale to a in a
B to B context is an edge case,
because otherwise they wouldn't
need you as a salesperson. They
just solve it themselves. And
that's the example. If we go
back right to the beginning, I
change electricity providers
without talking to anyone,
because I don't need any
information. I don't need
anything from them. I'm
literally just switching
something over. So if you're
actually going to require sales
people every single sales a
slight edge case. So you're
always learning to answer your
question really directly if you
choose to do it, and I
appreciate that this is a very
high agency answer, but if you
choose to do it, then do it. But
you don't have to choose to do
it. Just like, let's be honest,
you don't have to learn how to
swim. If you're in Australia,
don't go to the beach if you
don't know how to swim, but you
don't have to go to the beach,
so you don't have to learn to
swim, but everyone can learn how
to swim. Yeah, I'm happy with
that answer.
Mark Ackers: Great. What is, and
we'll wrap with this, Scott,
what is the one thing that you
wished you'd learned earlier in
your sales career?
Scott Cowley: Oh, there's too
many. The one thing would be,
buyers. Buy. Sales people
influence. So another way of
phrasing that a sales person
doesn't decide when a sale
happens, only the buyer does. In
fact, that's a positive. If the
sales person could decide, every
salesperson will say, Well, I
don't want to talk to them. I
just want them to buy and credit
it to my name, which means the
profession doesn't need to
exist. So the biggest thing that
I I wish I had to learn a lot
younger, is that it's not about
me as the seller. The seller is
merely an influencer who's
supporting a buyer, but the
buyer actually decides to buy or
not. The seller doesn't decide
for them. And once you learn
that, it kind of opens up. It's
never about. You at the end of
the day, it's about them, and
therefore, be the guide, be the
influence that they need. But if
you push them at the wrong time,
they're just going to say no,
and that's okay. So like really
understanding that ultimately
the buyer is the one who makes
the decision. The seller just
helps. And
Mark Ackers: this is where it
comes back to understanding
seasonality, understanding why
buy anything at all, why now it
all ties really nicely. Scott,
I've loved this chat that we've
had. I think we've covered a lot
of ground, again, probably only
a fraction of the things that I
wanted to cover with you, but
it's been great to have you
here. Thanks. You're definitely
going to stand long in the test
of time of travelled service to
be on the podcast. I know he's a
record that will live a long
time with you, but yeah, thanks
for coming on, and I'm looking
forward to we're heading out
tonight, right? Been a pleasure.
You.