Carol Cone:
Welcome to Purpose 360. I'm Carol Cone, and the show that we're going to have today is one of my favorites of the year. It's our Purpose Predictions for 2025, and we have marvelous guests on the show. Each one has a very different and distinct point of view. We have Caryl Stern from Lion Tree, we have Martin Whitaker from JUST Capital, Jenny Lawson from Keep America Beautiful, and Justina Nixon-Saintil from IBM. Each one has a different point of view on their vision for the coming year, and I am so excited about it, so let's get started.
Carol Cone:
So Justina Nixon-Saintil, welcome back to the show. You are one of my favorite people in the entire world with the gigantic title of Chief Impact officer and President of the IBM International Foundation. Welcome back to the show.
Justina Nixon-Saintil
Carol. Thank you for inviting me back. Happy to be here.
Carol Cone:
Okay, so let's just jump right into it. So where do you see purpose and social innovation evolving in the coming year?
Justina Nixon-Saintil
So I think over time purpose has been very much aligned with business strategy. It's starting to strengthen where almost every organization today has a purpose or social impact function that is aligned with their business, and I think that's going to continue. But one other area that we see for next year is really how AI is going to permeate this work and everything from the rise of AI agents, the focus on AI ethics, how AI can be used to personalize customer service or personalize a learning experience, how nonprofit organizations can use AI to really understand their communities and understand how to better impact those communities. I do see that shift as we move into next year and how important it is to really fully understand AI and how it could be used for social impact.
Carol Cone:
That's perfect. That's absolutely perfect.
So you've talked about AI as an opportunity and a challenge. Are there other predictions you have besides AI, which is ginormous? I've got that, but any other areas that you would say you're looking into 2025 and social impact opportunities, challenges?
Justina Nixon-Saintil
Yeah, I think there are three things that I'm thinking about around predictions. The first is around the use of more guardrails around AI. If you really think about it, AI ethics is something everyone should understand, and what's the responsible use of AI? And it's important for our communities to understand that. It's important for nonprofits to understand that. You would also not just take advantage of the AI opportunity, but understand how to use it in the best way possible. So for example, there's a focus around shadow AI and that's the misuse of AI, especially in the education system or with employers. And people need to understand, what's the responsible use of AI based on where you are? Are you in school, in university? Are you at your work of employment? Do you understand how to use it responsibly?
So I think as I think about next year, the increase in AI agents which actually execute the work for you based on the prompt you provide and the increase in shadow AI, both of those will require more of a focus around AI ethics. The second area around predictions, and we've been talking about this for quite some time, Carol, is the opportunity for lifelong learning. This can no longer be one and done. You learn something and then you start working and you actually never up-skill or re-skill yourself again. The opportunity for lifelong learning is going to be something everyone needs to understand. And right now it's all about AI. But then everybody needs to understand, what is cyber? What is cybersecurity? And then when you think about future technologies like quantum, what is that going to mean down the line?
So everyone needs to understand that lifelong learning is something they all have to consider, and it's not just learning one topic and done. And then the last thing I would say is really around the use, and I touched on this earlier, the use of AI to provide that better educational experience. I think educational entities and organizations with learning platforms will really need to consider, how do you integrate AI to provide that personalized learning experience? And I think that's going to become a competitive advantage for those who are able to do that. I think those are the three areas that I see being significant as we move into 2025.
Carol Cone:
Great. Lots to learn, and lifelong learning, for sure.
Justina Nixon-Saintil
Well, one of the things I enjoyed and what attracted me to IBM was the opportunity to learn new things. I learn new technologies. I'm a curious person overall, but being able to come and learn about AI or hybrid cloud or environmental data, I think that's what excites me. And I think if you want to be successful in any job, you have to have that curiosity and that opportunity to always be able to up-skill yourself.
Carol Cone:
Perfect, because that leads right into my next question, which is, what advice would you give to purpose and social innovation professionals? So one is lifelong learning, be insanely curious and put the time in.
Justina Nixon-Saintil
Yeah, definitely. I think part of lifelong learning is, how do you make sure you have those immediate skills around AI? I mean, something as simple as, how do you master the art of prompt writing? How do you create the right prompt to get the response you want with an AI assistant? And then when you move to AI agents, how do you create the prompt to be able to go and execute what you need? So understanding what AI is and up-skilling yourself in AI, I think that is one of the pieces of advice that I will share with everyone who are on the journey around lifelong learning. I think the other things that are always important to me, and they were great for my career, is how do you find the right mentors? How do you find the right partners and supports within your organization, whether you are in the university space where mentors help to guide my journey through engineering, to be able to get employment, to be able to move up in my career, and also at the employer level as well?
So I do think finding the right mentors, finding people that you can have discussions around AI with and learn from, and then up-skilling yourself, even starting with some very basic ways to understand AI fundamentals and AI ethics, all the way to really fully understanding if that's something that is important to you, how do you actually build models or how do you implement these AI assistants? So I think there's a lot of opportunity for people to up-skill themselves.
Carol Cone:
That's brilliant. So I'd love you to predict what do you think are the most important social issues in the U.S. and then global? Because the world is different in different places.
Justina Nixon-Saintil
Yeah, I mean, this is a really tough question because there are just so many global issues, and I travel significantly. I meet with my teams all over the world, and there is the focus on hunger. There's a focus on very specific human rights issues, for example. There's the focus on climate change and environmental threats and how that's impacting certain communities. I know, for me, I support a lot through the volunteerism that I do. So I will work on creating [inaudible 00:15:17] blankets for cancer patients. I will pack book bags with supplies for children who don't have access to those types of supplies. I will help feed the hungry where I can. As far as what we do from a corporate perspective, our focus is really in two areas. How do we make sure we are providing the right skills for all? We want to make sure we have opportunity for all.
And with the acceleration of technology, with the need and demand from corporations for people to have the right AI skills, my focus is, how do I bring this to them, make it available for free, and help them connect those skills to a real job opportunity that can increase their economic and social mobility? And that is the area that my team and my organization and IBM focus on the most. And that's in the university space, that is in the high school space, but also adults who need new job opportunities and who need to also re-skill and up-skill themselves. And then in sustainability, how do we use our expertise, how do we use our access to data and our access to AI platforms to really help those communities that are being impacted the most by climate change and environmental threats?
And we do that as well. So those are the two areas of focus. And I can tell you, Carol, no matter where I travel in the world, governments and communities are still focused on those two things, education and sustainability, and how we uplift those communities.
Carol Cone:
Great. That's super. Very well stated. So this has been a wonderful conversation, and I always like to give the last word to you. So is there anything else that you'd like to state regarding what you predict for 2025?
Justina Nixon-Saintil
Yeah, I think, again, it's AI, AI, and AI, and how we can use it to better our communities, how we can use it to improve our lives, and the importance of up-scaling and making sure that you're ready. And I think that's why it's so important for people to be aware of how AI can shift and change their jobs and how they need to be ready for the next set of jobs that will be created and how they have to make sure they have the right skills to do that. So I'm excited about how we think about this in 2025 and beyond, and how we're able to help even more communities around the world.
Carol Cone:
Thank you, Justina. You never disappoint.
Justina Nixon-Saintil
Thank you, Carol.
Five seconds of music separating guests
Carol Cone:
Martin Whitaker, one of my favorite, favorite people to have conversations with on Purpose 360. Welcome back to the show, Martin.
Martin Whittaker:
Thank you, Carol. It's always great to be here.
Carol Cone:
I love our conversations. So I'm going to start out with the one that's on everyone's mind, which is what role should companies play in social issues in a Trump administration?
Martin Whittaker:
Well, I don't know that it's that different than they should play on a Biden administration. I think you have company's role in society, as you know, we define that through by asking the public. And this year we've done that as we've done that for the last decade, and we did see some changes. We're going to be announcing the detailed results of that, but it's clear to us that the public does want companies to step up and step in on social issues that are related to their business and less interested in companies speaking up and speaking out on things unrelated to their companies. So that's an important point. Secondly, in all our work this year, I think we have seen the issues that decided the election, the issues that gave rise to Trump victory reflected in the issues that people associate with just business behavior. So those are issues connected to employee wellness at work, the strength of benefits.
We saw a lot of interest in care and people being able to enter the workforce, look after aging parents or children. A lot of focus on fair pay, obviously. I mean, compensation, living wage, fair pay has always been at the top of the list of issues. So we haven't seen a huge change. I don't expect under a Trump administration company's role is going to be very different. I do think that the expectation on companies to be leaders in their communities, to be a good employer, to think about the health of their products and how they're supporting health and safety and environmental quality and stuff like that, I think that continues. So I'm not sure there's a major difference.
Carol Cone:
Okay. Well, that's good to know. So where you give tons of counsel to companies all across the country, whether they're national or multinational. And so what advice would you want to give them setting aside Trump administration in terms of how they address their purpose, priorities, and activations in 2025?
Martin Whittaker:
Well, I would put it this way, they got to hit the gym.
Carol Cone:
How are they going to hit the gym?
Martin Whittaker:
At the gym? I think this is going to be about the business case, the strength of the business case. This is about tying stakeholder leadership, whether it's your workforce, customers, communities, environment, tying that to the generation of value profits and returns. And for too long, it's been too easy for companies to make commitments and future pledges about how good they're going to be. And we've seen that with DEI, we've seen that with ESG, we've seen that with climate, future climate commitments. And if you're really serious about those issues as business issues, it's time to get serious about what data do you need? How do you do those things? How do you connect that to the strength of the business case? It'll be a lot more disciplined, a lot more committed, a lot more as focused on the ROI of that work as you are on the ROI of other operational strategic business issues. So hit the gym, put in the hard work, don't worry about looking good, focus on being good and then let the results follow.
Carol Cone:
Wonderful. So in that measurement business connected view, there has been a lot of, did we say backlash on at least the terminology ESG, the work in DE and I, companies seem to be going backward. Is that the case from where you sit?
Martin Whittaker:
We've certainly seen companies pull back on the public commitments, no doubt. We've been tracking that over the course of 2024. Many others have been tracking that, it's well documented. Walmart, I think it was the latest, just before Thanksgiving, Walmart didn't pull out of DEI altogether. It's just shifting its strategy as many other companies are. We've also seen a lot of companies re-up and reaffirm their commitment to the issues that fall under DEI. I'll come back to that in a second. JP Morgan is one, I saw Colgate-Palmolive I think just came out with a DEI report. So there's a lot of companies who don't get the headlines, because they're not changing their position, who are all systems go. I think what we're seeing shift overall, Carol, is how companies talk about it privately as well. How they think about implementation goes back to what I said earlier about really getting disciplined about what you mean by DEI.
Putting in the hard work of, okay, we believe we want to create equal opportunities for everybody in this company without any kind of bias or discrimination. How are we exactly we going to do that? How do we measure that that's happening? How do we understand the business case, et cetera? So that doesn't happen overnight. That's not a commitment that you make or a commitment in terms of a target. That's a process. That's an investment in your people, and that takes time like any other human capital investment. So we do see companies framing DEI differently. Again, it's around investing in workforce, training, access to advancement in the workplace, upskilling, and more broader, I suppose, human capital investments. And I think that's probably what's going to happen in 2025. You're going to see a lot more focus on workforce, workplace, wellbeing-related issues, and tied very strongly to a business case for investing in people.
Carol Cone:
I'm curious if you are doing any engagement with boards to try and up-level their understanding of this and the greater integration with ROI?
Martin Whittaker:
We do some, we'd like to do more. Most of our work right now is with either C-suite or level below, direct report to C-suite. I would say we have three levels of relationships with companies, Carol. One is just purely through the rankings. We rank 1,000 companies. The majority of them are engaged with us in that process, giving us data, responding to our data, et cetera, but it's like a transactional relationship throughout the rankings. We want to make sure we're reflecting that performance accurately so that that's one level. The second level would be, okay, we've seen what you guys are all about at JUST Capital. We want to improve. We'd like your thoughts on what we could be doing better. Where might we be investing? Help us understand the rankings, help us understand our performance. So we have deeper relationships with those companies. And then there's several dozen, maybe 50 or so, maybe more than that, 50, 75 where we have, I would say high-level ongoing relationships.
They're involved in our program work, they're licensing our new toolkit. They are involved in our corporate impact lab, our programs, we're advising them in some way, shape, or form. So that's a deeper ongoing relationship. And we want more of those relationships, because we're all about trying to help companies create value for themselves and for their shareholders and for society. That to us is what stakeholder capitalism is all about. And so that doesn't come purely from a ranking. It comes quite doing the work with the company, so we want to invest in that part of our platform.
Carol Cone:
Okay, and thank you. I always like to give the last word to my guest. So any other advice or counsel to practitioners or just the overall view of purpose in 2025?
Martin Whittaker:
I think one thing that is going to happen with the new administration, it's fairly clear that if we're going to get out of this debt crisis that this country has, it to be driven by growth, it has to be driven by the private sector. And so companies are going to have to think about and act on what really drives growth. And I think that that is going to have to be done in a way that doesn't exacerbate or perpetuate a lot of the inequalities that have given rise to populism, that have given rise to a sense among millions of Americans that capitalism isn't working for them. And so you got to grow and you got to have more people with a stake. How do you do that? That is going to define 2025. Talk about purpose. That is the highest purpose I think the business has in 2025.
Carol Cone:
Beautiful. Martin, you're always so articulate. I love your point of view. You're working with lots of great companies. I suggest to any of our colleagues, clients, and friends that they must, must participate with JUST Capital because you are so smart at what you're doing. So thank you so much.
Martin Whittaker:
Thanks Carol.
Five seconds of music separating guests
Carol Cone:
Caryl Stern, welcome back to Purpose 360. It's so delightful to have you and to ask you one of our favorite questions, which is what are your purpose predictions for 2025?
Caryl Stern:
Well, first of all, Carol, thanks so much for having me back. I love having a conversation with you. But my predictions for 2025, you know, I think the country is so divided right now that I am hopeful, after great chaos comes calm, and so I am hoping and crossing my fingers that we might find some calm in 2025. I don't know whether I'm optimistic in thinking that, but I am at least hoping for that.
When it comes to purpose, I think one of the big things we're going to see in 2025 is attention paid to people with disabilities. In the past, we have defined DEI primarily in terms of race, religion, and ethnicity, and I am hopeful that we will be able to expand how we think about that. While many DEI statements mention people with disabilities, you don't hear a lot about it, you don't see a lot about it, and yet I believe we're going to see that change in 2025.
Carol Cone:
For our listeners, can you talk about the size of the audiences of the people that have disabilities? It's large.
Caryl Stern:
16% of the entire world's population has a disability of some kind, so that's one of the largest minorities you're going to find.
Carol Cone:
Exactly.
Caryl Stern:
But if you look just in the United States, one in seven Americans under the age of 65 has a disability, and it becomes one in five once you cross that threshold. So I get to be in the one-in-five group.
And so really, there's a number of things happening in 2025 that lead me to that prediction. One, it's the 35th anniversary of The Americans with Disabilities Act, so you will see events and fanfare that will draw people's attention there. You are already beginning to see some mainstreaming and commercials and other things where suddenly we are beginning to see some attention paid there. But also technology, in particular AI, is bringing to bear new products and services that are changing the way people with disabilities interact with the rest of the world. And so it's a really exciting time.
And then additionally, as we look to the next few years and you see the Special Olympics, the Paralympics, the regular Olympics, and the World Cup all coming to the Americas, there's a focus right now on health, on wellness, on our bodies, and our abilities. And so I think it's going to open up really innovation and opportunities for us to finally address that last bastion of rights.
Carol Cone:
Ah, that's terrific. So you've given a lot of advice over your career. You've been so generous with professionals and so I would... What advice do you give to them?
Caryl Stern:
I think number one, we all need to take a deep breath. It doesn't matter what profession we're in, we need to start 2025 by saying, "This is the year we want to reunify." I did a toast at an event that LionTree hosted and I talked about I hope, in 2025, we will learn how to listen to all that we hear, not just hear what we listen for. And that's what I think, to all of our purpose professionals, we need to really perhaps lead the way in that and be willing to say, "We may not agree. Let's look for common solutions as opposed to having to have common ground in order to work together."
Carol Cone:
That's wonderful. Do you have a second piece of advice for purpose professionals since the first one was so profound?
Caryl Stern:
Yeah, the second one is learn to laugh. I think that when you work in purpose, you get your rewards by the people you serve. People always say to me, �When you ran UNICEF, how did you survive all of the traumas you had to enter into and the horrors that many children around the globe have to endure?� And I always say to them, �Well, I had the privilege to endure those things with children,� and children play soccer in the middle of a refugee camp, children will find something to make a doll out of in the wake of an earthquake. Kids will make you laugh. They will find funny things.
And so I've tried really hard myself, and I have to work at it some days more than others, to learn to laugh and to remember that purpose work doesn't mean I have to cry all the time. It means I have to be committed to taking that deep breath, working through the problems, bringing people along with me, and being willing to come along with them and be a follower, not just a leader.
Carol Cone:
Oh, that's beautiful. That's great. Do you feel that the advice you would give purpose professionals in the US would differ from those globally?
Caryl Stern:
You know, it's interesting because obviously with the advent of ESG, there's a backlash in the United States and there's a lack of a backlash in Europe. So clearly, I think we're facing some different challenges on opposite sides of the pond. In the developing world, it's yet an entirely different, and then it's a survival moment, and I think you bring forth different skills in each of those situations.
Carol Cone:
That's terrific. In terms of challenges, I mean, you've talked a lot about really fabulous things, people need to really engage and listen and there's new issues, any significant challenges that you would like to add that purpose professionals, they need to really spend some time about them?
Caryl Stern:
Well, obviously the backlash to ESG in the States is a challenge to all of us, and I've tried very hard to say to people, "Look, I was doing diversity work before the letters DEI were in the vocabulary, so let's stop using terms and let's talk about program." What is it that we're trying to achieve? We're trying to achieve equity. We're trying to achieve equal access to opportunity. Those should be the goals. And that's, again, where you look for common solutions.
One of my favorite ways to think about common solutions, Tim Shriver, this is his, not mine, but he described it to me where he said, "If we try to come together around gun control, the pros and the cons are never going to agree. They're just not. We're going to line up our statistics on both sides, we're going to stick to our guns or not our guns, and we're not going to ever agree. If, on the other hand, we were to say, 'Let's stop the violence in our communities,' we could all agree on that. Nobody wants to live in a violent community. So let's go for common solutions and then let's, after we've built relationships, come back to try to find common ground."
Carol Cone:
That's beautiful. And I always like to give the microphone to my guest for the last words, so anything you'd like to add for our listeners?
Caryl Stern:
Anything I'd like to add? I guess the thing that I would say to you that now, I mean, what I call my preferment, the swan song of my career where I get to do what I prefer, is that everybody comes to me, "You're going to retire?" "No, I'm going to prefer," and is to live in the moment a bit. You know?
I think I spent a great deal of my life worrying about the next step. And I, during my UNICEF time, I think because I saw how fragile life was, I did stop and learn how to be in the moment a little better and I'm trying very hard to hold onto that. And especially in this moment in my life where my friends and my family are aging, where I'm seeing my own body doesn't do everything it used to do, and I'm losing friends and family at a greater clip than perhaps I was 10 years ago, that I want to start to really value the moment I'm in.
Carol Cone:
That's beautiful. So Caryl Stern, it is always a pleasure. You are filled with wisdom, no matter where you are, what organization you're leading, and I want to thank you for your very insightful predictions for 2025.
Caryl Stern:
Thank you. Thanks for having me on, anytime, always good to see you.
Five seconds of music separating guests
Carol Cone:
So welcome Jenny Lawson. Jenny is the CEO of Keep America Beautiful. She's an extraordinary individual, a friend and a colleague, and I know we're going to have a wonderful conversation. So welcome back to the show, Jenny.
Jenny Lawson:
Thanks, Carol. Great to be here.
Carol Cone:
So why don't we start just in general, Jenny, where do you see purpose, and some people might call it sustainability, there's lots of names, evolving in the coming year?
Jenny Lawson:
I think in times of uncertainty and change, an authentic purpose for a brand helps on so many levels. It helps to navigate challenging conversations, it helps to articulate vision for organizations. So I think purpose has a really important role to play over the next four years. Sustainability is a mandate that is coming outside of U.S. politics these days. It's a global mandate for change that the vast majority of, at least the Fortune 1000, have really stepped into making changes and mindset changes that are necessary for the future. So I actually think that staying the course with authentic purpose and a focus on sustainability commitments really is how companies can navigate these challenging times.
Carol Cone:
And we all agree they are challenging times. So what are some of the opportunities for an organization or a brand in the coming year?
Jenny Lawson:
Selfishly at Keep America Beautiful, we have our eyes set on July of 2026, which is the country's 250th birthday. And so I think there's an opportunity ahead for companies too to think about how are they going to play into the country's 250th birthday? What is going to be their path to celebrating what brings us together and how do you use that, back to my previous comment, on that purpose journey over the year ahead? And so we're super excited and have gotten lots of interest from companies in helping us imagine and celebrate that moment.
Carol Cone:
And it's my understanding you're going to be working with over 25,000 communities helping to clean up and green up and beautify. Would you like to just comment on what your vision is for that?
Jenny Lawson:
You've got it. Our big vision is can we as a company pick up 25 billion pieces of litter? It would be more than half of all that's out there. If we could pick up 50 billion, we would pick it all up. And that seems like exactly the right direction for celebrating such a significant birthday.
Carol Cone:
So you've got a lot of sustainability and purpose professionals listening to this podcast. You've given them some interesting ideas for 2025, but what other advice would you give them as they're looking into a tumultuous environment?
Jenny Lawson:
I think the Deloitte Trust barometer, there's lots of indicators that continue to show that globally and nationally, we all trust our brands, those big voices from business to be, especially the workplace, a place of truth and authenticity. And that that's an important role for companies to continue to play. I think authentically leading through your sustainability messaging for how you live up to commitments that you've already made, all of those things matter and for demonstrating that not only in advertising but with how your employees volunteer, how they engage in their communities, and how you show up with partners in getting the work done in the next four years. It's a true leadership opportunity for business in many ways that'll be unprecedented from any administration before.
Carol Cone:
I'd love you to talk about the power of hands-on volunteerism and getting hands into the dirt. What is that like for an individual?
Jenny Lawson:
It changes everyone involved every single time. It changes the experience that that individual has in their own community. They start to know their community better literally at a ground level. They start to understand what are the drivers in a neighborhood, what's happening, the dynamics. Anthropologists study litter to understand cultures. Litter can tell you a lot about a neighborhood. So what's happening in those neighborhoods? What are some of the issues? Who turns up to help? The mother's groups, the citizen groups, the business groups that you serve alongside of when you volunteer. The fresh air, getting out in our communities is good, it's good for the community, it's good for the individual. It's a great way to show up in neighborhoods.
Carol Cone:
Oh, that's wonderful. Beyond beautification, cleaning up and beautification, what other important social issues do you predict that will come to the fore and get a lot more attention in 2025?
Jenny Lawson:
I think we're going to see civil rights issues continue to be very important in communities. And so as the mother of a trans daughter, I worry about those issues in the year ahead. And I think issues of safety for LGBTQ community members is something that will need our attention over the next four years. I also think that understanding how to engage change that is both economically important for communities is preserving and improving environmental justice will continue to be issues that will need to be clarified and really given attention over the next four years.
Carol Cone:
Super. And before I let you have the last comment, I would love to ask you, what role should companies play in a Trump administration?
Jenny Lawson:
As I hinted at earlier, companies will be a voice that is listened to in this administration. They also can be a place for authentic dialogue, for authentic commitment to sustainability, to the environment, to issues of diversity and equity. And holding those values closely and publicly will be important benchmarks as we go through this next administration.
Carol Cone:
Super. That's wonderful, Jenny. And I always like to give the last comment to my guest. So what haven't we discussed or what would you like to add?
Jenny Lawson:
Carol, at this time of year, and we've been friends for years now, and the power of friendships and collaborations and partnerships, I think, are going to be how we are successful in the coming years. The more we continue to work together building towards the values that we have all defined over the last eight, 10 years, I think we can't let our foot off the gas now. We have to keep going. And I look forward to doing that with you and with the companies that we are engaged with and who are interested in going on that journey with us as well. So thank you so much for having me.
Carol Cone:
Oh, it's our pleasure. Thank you, Jenny. Wonderful comments as always.
Jenny Lawson:
Thank you, Carol.
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