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Built to Win is a podcast for leaders driving growth, transformation, and complex change. We speak with founders, operators, and industry experts about what it really takes to build and scale successful businesses. Conversations cover leadership, culture, talent, technology, and execution, with a focus on real challenges and practical decisions. Expect honest insights, real stories, and lessons you can apply straight away. Powered by people. Built to win.
welcome to the built to win podcast
I'm your host Luke Mccluskey
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welcome to another episode of the build to win podcast
today I am joined by Tom Benjamin good to have you on
so Tom is the founder of The Bagel Projects
founded it in 2023 scaled organically
from initial investment to currently five stores
with a goal to get to 20 stores
and then an exit
have I missed anything no
no no
that's good cool
perfect but um
so today we wanna talk about mindset pressure
discipline and all that stuff
all that stuff that makes you successful
um so uh
let's just kick on okay
cool into it okay
so when you've obviously taken risks right
yeah when everything is on the line
everything is on the line
you know financials reputation
all of that stuff
what does your internal dialogue sound like
I think you've got a just like back yourself
I think that's the biggest thing that I've always done
is I
I kind of eliminate risk by saying the worst thing is
you know as long as you're not getting yourself
in crazy amount of debt
I lose all the money I can go again
and I think I just break it down like that every time
that's like the easiest bench up for me yeah
if I lose all the money I can go again
and I think once you look at it like that
and money's not like a real tangible thing that you
hundred percent need and decisions you make
the better decisions you don't have to apply that risk
that people say might be too risky
I just think well so worst thing the upside out no yeah
yeah if if if it doesn't work and I lose
then I lose and I can just go again but if I win
the upside is a lot bigger than
me sat here and doing nothing
just like fair well
actually that's one of my later questions
but I'm gonna just ask a question now um
are you driven by well I think you just answered it
but are you more driven by the buzz
of the drive to succeed yeah
or the fear of failure
I think beginning it was fear to fail
like I didn't want to fail like a
I started off I used to play like professional Rugby
okay so I was in a big environment where if you failed
you got dropped hmm
you can't fail you can't get dropped
so I kind of applied that early when I started as in
I can't fail whereas now I'm very relaxed
like I actually
I hope I do fail a few times because I feel like you
I know it's really cliche to to think to say
but on the things that I failed on
I've learnt so much 100% to where we are now yeah
I almost think
if I hadn't have had those real bad times
or real bad failures in
in the sense of looking at it as a failure
then I wouldn't be where I am today
so I'm actually really grateful for for failure
so when all I am yeah it really doesn't um
it doesn't faze me like it used to yeah yeah
I was really scared of failure
whereas now I just think
be driven back yourself and I know it's coming yeah
yeah you you can't you can't yeah um
you can't win everything you do no
all your ideas all your innovations
all that stuff that you're gonna do yeah
some of it is just gonna fall on its ass yeah
and some of it is gonna absolutely fly
but somewhere in the middle
you find the balance of growth
definitely
that's really into I didn't realise that you um
you played professional Rugby who did you play for
so I was at Nottingham
I did a bit of Bedford and then yeah
I came up through like Cardiff Met um
so I played at university there for three years yeah
and then yeah
I came so nice high standards it was good fun yeah yeah
it was good good stuff what
what do you do differently
when the stakes are at that absolute highest
yeah I think for me
I probably work like I know as hard as I can
like I'll
just work every hour that I physically can
and be committed to what I'm trying to achieve
I feel like if I work as hard as I can
and it still doesn't work
at least you can look at yourself and be like
you know there's no question of we
at least you didn't put the work in
so that's the biggest thing for me
I'm just making sure that I am working to my limit
and now I guess
I'm better at delegating and splitting the task down
whereas before I take everything on
we're expanding obviously quite quickly now
before I take the full fit out and brand in
our launch strategy everything would be me internally
I would work on it whereas now I'm kind of
we've meet and I'll divvy bits out
and I think that's helping me get better
whereas I used to just take it all off yeah
you start meddling as well yeah
the trouble is when you do delegate yes
you start thinking do it like that's that's
that's a tough bit
but you gotta let people come through
hundred percent you gotta let people come through um
okay have you ever felt like you were going to like
break with stress and what did you do in that moment
I probably just carried on working to be honest
early on that's like we used to have a
we had a cocktail bar
and then I was opening the Bagel Projects where
I was working till 2:00am
getting up at 6:00am a bit to bake
like to roll to open the store
and that was probably the point where
you know you thought you're gonna break
and for me I just think
I feel like when you look back
and I think that I don't know how you got through that
but at the time
it just felt like it was a necessary evil
I had to do to get through
so where does this work effort come from
I'm not I actually don't know
like I'd say maybe my mum's obviously been a
you know
she's come all the way up through food manufacturing
I started as a food technician
went all the way through to like CEO
yeah obviously huge company
I think seeing you know
that in quite a male dominated industry
her do that's pretty incredible
I don't I
at school I was
I didn't really have a great work ethic
I think in Rugby
I probably rely maybe more on talent than work
but I think in business I felt like I was very under
maybe
I didn't have the skills that was necessary to succeed
so you make up for it so I make up for it by work
that's probably where I've got to with that
it's crazy isn't it
yeah it's crazy
cause I I similar to you
I just I just couldn't get through school
hmm and get my head down
it just didn't it didn't work with my brain
but when there's something that you're interested in
and it's exciting
then you get into that hyper focus mode and it's like
nah like this is all exciting
I know it it you it's the old set yeah
100% yeah
it's probably
I think I've got quite an addictive personality
like business for me is so I just find it so addictive
so I think that's why I enjoy it yeah
yeah and I I you know
if you enjoy what it's it's clear show right
if you enjoy what you do you never work a day yeah
you probably not seeing it as work yeah
no I don't
and I always say that to like my friends
and now you know that I know works works shit
whatever I'm like I just don't
I just think I get to surround myself
with people that I wanna be around
and then we get to build something really cool
from an idea to a brand
that's like what excites me and what I enjoy yeah
nice OK
in your in your opinion what do you think separates
people who perform under pressure
and people who don't I think it is a mindset
and I think you either have
I think you should motivate a factor
I think I used to motivate myself by saying
you're not good enough to be here
and that was my motivation
whereas now I motivate myself by saying
you are good enough you just gotta go and
step on and prove yourself for the next level
and if I feel like you gotta be fighting an internal
dialogue to push yourself through that pressure
and some people crack and say it's too hard
I'll turn away hmm
if you don't have something internally driving you
that's where I think and what is it that drives you
I think now
I wanna build the biggest bagel brand in the UK
that's the goal
like aside from financials and anything like
you know
I want that's my goal and I think we can achieve it
I think being able to do that from
just to start rolling you know
physically making the bagels myself to do that
to see where we are and
you know we're getting into position where
speaking to potential investment
to be able to drive us to that next
that next stage I think that's my biggest goal
and that's what drives me
and was that always there
I don't think so in terms of like a business sense now
I think we started off so I started off with bars open
the first bar just before covid uh
as I was playing Rugby as well
and that was very much like this
I was like I'm getting to run a business
but I'm also getting to drink with my mates perfect
but the business acumen of it didn't really come in
and I think maybe as I stopped playing Rugby
and I didn't have that passion
I lost all of you know
like from like 12 all the way through to like 24
I was playing Rugby to a high standard
and then like I just had to finish doing that
losing all of that time that I had
and then I think found like a huge passion for business
and then just kept developing and developing
and like we do multiple things
clothing brand and a few other bits that
that we do just because I love it
like I find like it's just yeah
it's such a passion for me
do you have much of a social life now
a little bit um
more I imagine my
my girlfriend would probably say
we could have been a bit more
but yeah I feel like I'm trying to find a balance
but I do think that the balance is really difficult
and I I think when it's a passion
and something that you absolutely love
I don't think you wanna be away from it
rest of the hand yeah
that's the thing and I really enjoyed it
so doesn't seem like a
it's not a task for me to go and do it yeah
okay fair
what what what are the non negotiable habits that um
have driven your success
I think in terms of being like disciplined
finding routine and keeping yourself accountable
obviously you all know I guess
it in the sense of
if you say you didn't turn up to work today
but no one's gonna you know
say that what what why aren't you in work
like you you control it yourself
I think that's the same for me
but my internal thing is like
you have to turn up every day
you have to show up
you have to do this just making them non negotiables
you find in times you know
you have pretty low motivation points and you feel like
I'm not motivated but if you just stick in the routine
and you have your habit
you just get through it and you know
you look back on like three weeks and you're like god
I really didn't maybe wanna be in work
or I wasn't that motivated
but having that routine
and having those habits just drives you to
catches your fault when yeah
motivation 100% yeah
and then when you're super motivated
it's like you've got everything lined up and you yeah
yeah so when
when when when the motivation is is low and you know
you got cause we all get sometimes like where it's like
you know I could just have a day after that
but you don't what is it that's
that's that's that's getting you in
I think it's just that internal
you know we want the big
I wanna create the biggest brand and I want to do that
and to achieve it you have to turn up daily
I think for me it's about showing the team that
you know if they ever think that oh
you know I would hate to see my like boss or whatever
not turning up to work
or taking a half day or choosing
picking and choosing I'm very much like
I wanna show them that
this is a standard that I'm setting then
you know
hopefully that then drives everyone along along with me
so I think they're all the bits of playing to it
when I'm not moving yeah
I love that I absolutely love that
and what do you do consistently
that most people wouldn't have the discipline for
I think just like consistently working
and consistently trying to be better
like every single day
I know it's between like hospitality
but in terms of the bagels
I will looking at
every little bit of detail on how we get better
that's 100% how we get better
and then I think for myself
I'm now looking at how I can have a better routine
to make sure I'm eating better sleeping
training like all the things that when I started out
I wasn't doing I'm like
well no wonder I felt burnt out
feel like
now I can work at a pretty consistently high level
sustain it because I'm looking after my body
yeah it's like
you know not just putting work is 100% focus
because if you don't look after everything else
you start you've got to find a balance
you have to find a balance
you have to work less yeah
it doesn't mean that you have to work less yeah
it just means that you need to prioritize other things
yeah like that's an important factor in your life
yeah like
I wouldn't train
because I feel like an hour and a half
going to the gym is an hour and a half
out of my working day because now I'm like
if I do that I give you your release at the end of like
you know and ideas yeah
me yeah
and if you go at 6:00 and you do that
and then you go home and finish the
you know I always say like the creative bits
I don't find work
so from designing t shirts or designing our new menu
or doing anything like that
I'll do that at night
because I just feel like I can have the TV on yeah
do those types of bits but then like the harder work
get that done in the day yeah
yeah so you can finish off the easy stuff at night
yeah and what
what does a locked in day look like for you
I would say into well
I'd get get up we go into the bakery in the morning
I always get into the bakery
just because that's like our time
to make sure everything's getting right out the door
so we got centralized prep and bakery
that then all goes out
and then I kind of have team meetings in the morning
we're normally then looking at how we can develop our
either new menus or now new sites
doing quite a lot of investment work
so kind of like forecasting what we look like now
what we look like with six sites with nine sites
and when that comes in
and the pinch points on investment
and pinch points where we're gonna be short on cash
and looking at all those types of things
very much do that and then I'd say like afternoon
I normally look at something like the clothing bits
dropping to the bars and then evenings just
you still got the bars yeah
yeah yeah
still got the bars we got you for four
have you yeah
nice so it's good nice
just don't get to go in them much now
no she working yeah yeah
yeah I do
I do um
I go in a bit
check on them like a couple of times a week
but we've got good management in there yeah
um and I think it's often you
you have to prioritize something and understand why
why you want things to grow
and I think for the bagel project
we've really got a business
and kind of like
the unit economics really add up to scale
bars are really good but you know
you you have to be in them constantly and driving them
yeah I think the scalability
the investment in to set up a bar
versus the payback is a lot longer than what we call
yeah yeah
fair um okay
um what would you say when I
when I talk about something that didn't go to plan
what is that one thing that comes to your mind
where it's like
or maybe a failure a setback or whatever it might be
yeah I mean
we had a pretty big one
when we launched a cocktail bar at 6 Richmond House
it went it did go really well for a couple of years
and we had a flood
we overinvested like the the fit out cost were silly
we'll never recuperate that money back
and I think we were
almost flogging a dead horse for a bit
like it just wasn't turning
so we closed that and reopened as a different concept
just rebranded and now that's doing a lot better
oh nice
but I think it's that was because I was scared of fate
I thought if we close this
you failed you can't do that but then I was just like
it doesn't doesn't matter
and then we closed it reopened
and all of those problems we were having
seem to have gone away and now yeah
so I think what did you learn from that
I think just you're gonna fail sometimes
you're gonna make really bad decisions
and you can't hide away from them
you have to just accept that
that was a really bad decision
how do we can we reverse it
can we make it better and if we can't
then just accept that it's a bad decision and move on
instead of I think we kicking the cat
yeah it was
and that's what we did you know
for too long like for nine
even probably a year
we were just looking at it losing money
just gonna I'll get better
like we'll change this we'll change that
and it doesn't so you gotta just make
you just gotta make the right decision
yeah it's difficult
you don't know what they're like yeah
yeah absolutely
absolutely it's a
it's a tough one
especially when there's emotional attachment involved
yeah as well it's
you know it's a baby of yours
yeah okay
what would you say the hardest period of your career
yes been
and how did you navigate it
I would probably say as we
as we had the as Richmond house and
and we're opening the Bagel Project
cause at the time I'd only done bars
I never done like a cafe
so it was a complete new concept to me
I had to teach myself how to bake
it was like baking and operating the site
as well as running the cocktail bar
that was running till like 2:00am
so I think in terms of like
flipping your mindset between like
trying to operate a cocktail bar
and then flipping it back to opening a bagel shop
in the more yeah
that was really difficult
and I think
I didn't know whether I was making the right decision
I thought I was stretching myself too thin yeah
um but now I've Learned
I think now I'm trying to test ideas all the time
where did
where did the idea for the bagel project come from
um I first I used to um
drink quite a lot so the bars were perfect for me
and then I started drinking less and I was like the
the appeal of
being in them all the time became less and less
and I think then
seeing that there was a shift in kind of like
you know younger people coming through
they're not drinking as much
there was less drinking culture and I think I'd seen
you know the the face of it
I thought if we can make a product and we can sell that
we cut the middle man out
like with beer for instance
you buy a brewery they're making it
they put a cost on you get it from the wholesaler
so they've put a cost but by the time you get it
you've had like two extra cost
and you're then putting your margin
you know you've got like three up upsales on it um
whereas I thought if we can make our own product
we're a wholesaler
we're a supplier and we sell the own product
so that allowed us to have a bit more margin
and I thought it'd be worth a shot at it
the investment cost in wasn't a crazy amount
I thought it was worth a punt and
mm hmm and I will see it soon
soon why bagels
um I'd always
I'd seen when I went into university
I'd seen a bagel shop um
it was like kind of like a New York deli
I really like the concept
I thought it was really good
and Nottingham didn't have anything
and I thought we if you've got an opportunity
especially in hospitality
to get into a market without any competition
yeah like you are laughing
you have to yeah
I literally did a search and I was like
there isn't and then did another one
I was like there's literally no bagel shops in London
yeah
and then I think as soon as we got a bit of success
we'd I then took a loan against my property out
because I was like
we have to try and monopolize this market
and now we've got to like three
and obviously we would we got the
the two more coming to make us five
within two and a half three years
I think you know
competition is now on its way
is that um yeah
it's pretty big competition
but I feel like it's I just see that as like um
a compliment they're obviously looking at it and saying
there's an opportunity so I just say like we're
you know we're doing the right thing
and it like motivates me more like absolutely
it's giving me like you work at a
such a better level
now that somebody's trying to take the next one out
yeah yeah
it's so good I actually am
it's horrible yeah
yeah it's
it's a hard feeling I think it's
you know it is something you're dealing with
but I
I think I've just said that we are gonna get better
if we get better every single day
is that bigger business yeah
there you could be more agile
like yeah
yeah and I think we
we understand like I'm in it every single day and they
they I know that that won't be the case in that
that that side so yeah
feeling pretty good for it excited
good love that
do you do you believe that resilience is built
or do you feel that it's wired into someone yeah
I think there's a bit of both
I think you do have to have like
it is a crazy mindset to you know
I imagine you've probably felt it as well
but you're working stupid amount of hours
and probably not getting paid at the end of it
I know for the first like 12 months
even probably longer we
you know we were just reinvesting everything
and I was taking like minimum out
I could out of the business
like
there has to be a level of resilience built into you
I think and then I think you learn it more over time
and the more you do more resilient you get
and you know say like something comes in
you've probably seen it before
so you understand how to get around it
so resilience is built in
but I think there's got to be some natural in there
what do you think on it yeah
I'm probably with you on that
I think I think you built
I think resilience is built in school
yeah a lot
a lot a lot of it yeah
playground banter and all that stuff
I think you
you have to learn to cope with certain things
but I feel that you have to go through that
when you get later in life
you have to go through like hard knocks letdowns
failures to build resilience
like you can't just expect it to be there
you have to it's really difficult question actually
it's a really difficult one to answer
I think bounce back ability
it depends it all it all depends on mindset
it all depends on mindset
it depends on how you
what emotion you attach to that particular outcome
will depend on how you respond to it
with resilience that's not my take on it
so if if you're walking around glass half empty
almost expecting everything to happen
then when you get knocked down
you're gonna stay down
because you are kind of bringing it to the
to the forefront um
whereas I feel if it's just like well
nothing can knock me down whatever whatever comes to me
I'm gonna come back two times stronger
but it's difficult it's it's it's it's it's um yeah
it's a hard one so it's a hard one
I don't know yeah
I know I I think that I get that yeah
we we touched on this earlier
but what what
what has failure taught you
that success never could have
I think it's the feeling of failure
I think obviously you get better at dealing with it
but it still it stings
we've been in a period now where we've kind of gone
like back to
back to back record weeks
and the feeling of that versus like
the feeling of a bad week is complete
I feel the feeling of success for me
I don't really feel it uh huh
like it's next yeah
I don't you know I say the
the biggest thing that makes me feel like
I've achieved something
is when I walk into the bakery
because it's like you know
we've got a proper bakery now
and I just to roll in like a tiny little yeah
you know with an oven that could fit 24 bagels
and that is the thing I think I was cool yeah
but you know the failure
I think it stinks
and I think that feeling is is different yeah
it's um
it's where you learn yeah
it's where you learn if it's that painful
if it's that much of a failure
you just not gonna do it again yeah
yeah hundred
do you know what I mean and
and and you just become a lot more
diligent in your decision making
or whatever whatever yeah
it makes you think in a complete different way
I think yeah success
I don't think makes you
you've obviously worked hard to get there
and you get the success
but when you like have a really good week
obviously reflect on it yeah
I think the reflection is just in a different way
than it is when
for me I don't know about you
like when we have a record week month yeah
or whatever it might be
I I appreciate it for the moment yeah
but then I'm just like okay
we've proven we could do that that's a new benchmark
yeah
what can we go to next 100% and then it's never ending
you constantly you constantly chasing
but that's it it's a good thing and a bad thing yeah
it's a good thing when you wanna scale something
massive massive
but it's also a bad thing cause you're never satisfied
yeah I think that's it that's satisfied
I think as soon as you begin to become satisfied with
like either normal average
then I think that's when you you should look
I think to get out yeah
get out or yeah
as soon as you're happy with that was an OK week
like and you're not reflecting on every single detail
yeah I think when I say success and failure like
you know we still reflect on everything when we succeed
mm hmm but I think when you would it's that feeling
I think when you fail yeah
that's what stops you want to yeah
do it again yeah
I find that when we go through a tough tough phase
right we all go through it
that's when we learn the most
that's when I then build processes
that catches the fall that then that
that that will stop that from happening again
that will stop that from happening again
but my chairman always says to me
he always says he's my noni mentor
he always says to me said
when everything's going well
keep your eye over your shoulder
cause you're about to get left up from something yeah
right you don't know where it's coming from
so while they're just there
and you're dealing with them
that's great yeah right
that's great
cause you're moving forward and and stuff like that
but when everything's going perfect yeah
a big left hook is coming somewhere cause it's never
it is it's never your success is never linear yeah
I think that's what we like
we're in a good position now
we got good systems in the stuff
and obviously we're looking to expand
but that's the thing for me that I'm always like
looking at
whether we can develop other angles to the business
that we're just cause of the clothing stuff
we're now launching like online
we can have a website and we'll run that through like
um shopify
so I'll be able to sell our merch and yeah
run our ad stream the same that we do with our clothing
so I'm like well
I've got a physical store
I'm trying to build my brand
I'm gonna now build an online presence
and that's gonna act as its own ecosystem
someone might wear a Bagel Project T-shirt
because they think it's cool
in London they're wearing the brand
there's got a physical store
it's like in the times that we're a little
like things are going well
I'm like
how can we get better and how can we make our business
like I want to be a hospitality business
that's like thinking completely different than yeah
yeah traditional like this is what we do we
we serve people we do this
I want to have like an ecosystem that all fills yeah
that's smart smart now I like that
what does winning actually mean to you now
yeah um
I think it's very similar to
probably how you feel about it
I think when we get a win
I just it's it's how do we get better and how
how do we do it again but how do we do it bigger
and I think from a perspective of um
I think because it's
I've been very used to being in the team
winning in the team is such a good feeling
I don't know if you play sport
but just it's such a good feeling where it's like
when you win by yourself
even though you've got a team around you
is still quite lonely it's a different feeling
and I think it's like a what what's next then
or how do we improve or get better
and I know I keep saying it
but it's just an internal dialogue
I always have in my head is like
even when I was driving over here today
I was like
calling couple of the team and just thought about this
we think about that yeah
we've got someone's coming up
how do we look at maybe doing this
we've got like a mobile van that we put around
it's like how can we get that into cooler events
like so there's always things that I'm thinking of it
yeah um
the wins for me is just how do we keep
keep building on it
and did you always have that internal ideas factory
or is it is it just is it something that has
you know since you got into business
it's it's then started
you know falling from the sky these ideas yeah
I think I that's I think it's hard to
I don't have really a great memory
I think probably just getting hit in the head
a lot of most people like to do that yeah
that I think it has probably done it to be fair um
but growing up in that
I can't really remember having like
loads of these crazy ideas or thinking like
I wanna work for myself or anything
I thought I was gonna be a professional Rugby player
I think that was like my goal and even post uni
I thought yeah
I can still do it and
and then when work kinda got busier that fell away
and I think that that was when like
I really stepped on into the business
and I think then the more learning you do about it
the more ideas you come
and you're thinking in a different way
in terms of like
how do I take a product and how do I market that
you know how do we look at our ads strategy
and all the bits that we're looking at
in terms like the clothing really helps me
and I wanna test everything
I wanna be in every market
because I know everyone says
you should focus on one thing and do it really well
and I agree
but I also think if I can learn different elements
even if one business fails
but I learn say the clothing fails
but I've Learned about ads
how do we target target someone
how do we run an email campaign
how do we do all those things
and that's something that's gonna help
the Bagel Project you know
so for me
I just wanna I wanna be as many places as I can yeah
fair enough fair fair um
we kind of already answered this
but I'm gonna ask it again
is winning addictive yeah
yeah yeah
I yeah
I find it super addictive
like I think just that it's it's
it's like it does give you a good feeling
doesn't it yeah
yeah you know
it's impressive what you can achieve
I always take it back to like a base of like we had no
you know
we didn't have a business two and a half years ago yeah
so everyone's cool yeah
I think it's addictive do you find it addictive
massively I find it usually addictive
I I am absolutely addicted to the deal
I really cherish and I love my family time by
by the time I go to bed on Sunday
I am chomping at the bit to get back in the office
because I know deals are about to land
yeah and I'm just and I'll never lose that
when I do lose that that's enough
but yeah I'm I just I'm that's what that's why I'm here
you know because I'm just addicted to the deal yeah
I just love it it's math
it's a good feeling though
yeah it is yeah
it's a really good feeling okay
so when you talk about
when we talk about like people's purpose
do you think that it do you think that is found
or do you think that is built
I think it's a mixture but I do believe
if you haven't found what your purpose is
and you're trying to just build something fabricated
and I do think eventually that runs out
like I do think if your sole motivation was like
financial gain in a business
I think you might get to that point
but you'll have something in your head that you like
if I get to that
then I'll be happy or then I'll be you know
I'll find my purpose
I don't think that really it might serve some people
I can only speak from my personal perspective
like if it was that motivating factor
that was it I don't think I could
I think the purpose would run away pretty quick
absolutely I'm a big one on purpose
like I think about purpose is like happiness yeah
free yeah um
yeah happiness and I mean
what more do you want than being happy
and if somebody if X is gonna make you happy
then and I think that's it
isn't it
I think it's it's a process more than the end product
I find yeah
I think the yeah the journey is like so fun like yeah
just being in it all the time and seeing growth
and they're all the bits I really enjoy
and I think it's it's it's stressful
isn't it and it's hard I think yeah
it's easy everyone would do it but you know
I think you if you enjoy all those elements
and like you say it makes you happy
like I couldn't work for someone
I don't think I would just get fired pretty quick
I wouldn't be I couldn't
I don't think I could deal with the progression levels
and like if I came in an entry and I was
I would just want to keep
you know I would just be like
I would say a lot of experience level
then I'll be like for me
I always say to my team like
experience for me at some point
I think it matters but the stage we're in
like I just want people that want to work and enjoy it
being around and I enjoy being around
like the biggest thing for me
because I didn't have two and a/2 years ago
I didn't have any experience
you know deny to make a bagel where I was like
we are where we are today
if it was based on the experience
I would have never been able to stand
you know yeah
that would have been a barrier to entry there yeah
yeah yeah
I'm I'm with you 100% on that
I very very rarely do I hire anybody um
with recruitment experience every
everyone even like my board now yeah
like my commercial director
my sales director all home grown yeah
um that's why yeah
absolutely they
they learn it your way yeah
um and they don't necessarily come with egos
oh well
we could do it better if it's like
hang on this is how we do things around here
um buy into it
yeah buy into it
and you can and then
then you put them on a journey of
of progression and that's how you get loyalty
and culture and stuff like that
definitely that's how you get it
that's it yeah
and that's important
and last thing you want is looking over your shoulder
and then thinking do I trust that person
yeah I've got a really old
that tight knit team that I trust
yeah I think that's important for me
like it takes a me a long while to like trust you
yeah especially when I know that business capacity yeah
I'm probably like from a friendship
I'm quite like yeah
you know yeah
in a business sense it takes me a long
long time for me to be like yeah
it's your neck on the line
yeah it's your neck on the line
yeah so you got a bit right
you have to be yeah
um okay
if everything disappeared tomorrow
what would you rebuild first
um
I probably look at doing some of like the online bits
mm hmm what are you talking about from like a business
yeah yeah
yeah yeah
so you just got tomorrow you start again
yeah but I had all the
I knew everything yeah
yeah you got your knowledge
yeah I would probably look at like the um
e commerce side
just because I think in terms of like a quick like
you know
money in versus money out from a minimal investment
I'll be able to make some money back quite quick
yeah
as soon as I then gained a little bit more financial
then I look at how we probably took
where we are now as a brand
what works like unit economics
and then be able to like
bring that into a unit and expand quickly
but so like the the service of like
from your perspective of service base and like
especially ECOM online products
you know the overheads are so much lower yeah
with like a hospitality
like our overheads are extremely high
you know with business rates rent
you know all the
all the stuff that the government are
piling on at the moment you know
it all feeds into it
so it makes it a harder industry to be in
so I probably would look online
mm hmm if I was gonna go fair enough
what it what do you feel is one habit
everyone should steal from you
just I'd say consistency yeah
that is what I've tried to set stay now just consistent
make my I have a to do list
I have like important tasks need to get done
would be good if I did like
and if you had an absolute crazy day
and nothing's gone wrong
try and get these done at the end yeah
I just do that every day even if I'm like not in work
there'll be like a few bits I put on it yeah
I just do that at the end of the night
when I finish my day
ready for the start of the next one
I just do that daily yeah
and that's been the biggest thing that has helped me
so simple as well yeah
I know it's literally the most simple thing
and then I sleep better
because everything that I was thinking out
on a piece of paper and then in the morning
as soon as I sit down you know where you are
then you just start working through
so it's it's just that monotonous cycle of like
you know what you need to do yeah
yeah um
um what
what what is one belief um
that you hold that most people would disagree with
probably the I'm
I'm quite strong on the the experience thing
yeah people like a couple of my mates didn't get jobs
like a guy he's trying to be get one at the moment
he's like you know
looking for more experience
I just do it it
that fundamentally just does my head in
yeah cause I just think it's like you could have
could have had the best person
and you could mould them and you can work with them
you might have to put a bit more time into them
but that could be like the best asset you have
absolutely because they don't have experience
on a piece of paper
and it probably goes back to my school days
because school just used to annoy me like yeah
you know you just put in a box yeah
and if you don't fit
if I'm like really dyslexic and stuff trying to read
I struggle with
and then retaining the information to regurgitate
on a piece of paper yeah
I struggle with yeah
yeah yeah
so then it was like oh wait no
you would you can't go to a top university hmm
but it's then you're like
well this is mental yeah
but then I look at my class and I'm like
not not been up to get but you know
I'm probably out achieving yeah
person that went to Oxford
oh god yeah
so it's like yeah yeah yeah
west there yeah
yeah absolutely
I had to have a conversation with my
my little boy he's 11 years old
he came back he's like
I got um
I got Star Student of the week
yeah he's in year 6
yeah and it was a really nice
really nice statement from his
from his teacher about how he's doing really
really well but I comment on it
he's working really hard to um
he's working really hard to tone down his exuberant um
his exuberant personality
I'm like that's his personality
yeah yeah
like why should he stop why should he
why should he tone down on like how exuberant he is
that he that's never offended anybody
so I had to sit down with him and say that
that I disagree with you
stay here and well done on getting all of that
but I don't like that like that just yeah
it is hard yeah
I think just get put in a box yeah
and if you don't fit dead into it and yeah
but yeah absolutely yeah OK
worst advice you see people follow
I I think in the online space there is a lot now oh god
I can't that's probably another pet peeve of mine
but yeah if you're selling a course
and you haven't got a business
then yeah you shouldn't or have one or yeah
you shouldn't listen to a word they say no
because unless you're scaling
something that people can physically see yeah
so that would be a big one is I would say
be really careful who you're listening to
from online space perspective yeah
and then like another one
I think
is people now get really put off the idea of risk
speaking to one of my friends the other day
he's just come back from America working
and we were speaking about business
and I was like why don't you start your own
so I made a risk I was like well
you ain't got a job at the moment he's like yeah
I know but like you know
I'll get one so I couldn't take on that risk
and I think people are so
you know it's drilled in that yeah
don't take risk don't do this
if you haven't got security in your job
or this or that then you know
you're not gonna be in a good space
whereas I look at it from the reverse side
you have got to go through you know two
three years of it
you're definitely not making all you know
making a bit of money but it been really hard
but once you get to the other side
and the way that you view things is worth that
two years yeah
failure or perception of failure yeah yeah absolutely
I think that's the that's the challenge like here right
there's a like there's a lot of rejection involved
there's a lot of rejection
recruiting is a really really hard sales job right
and I have to
constantly do mindset sessions with people
to get them to take risks yeah
and just be themselves and yeah
and not not put on a corporate mask
we're far from corporate it's like just be be yourself
I hired you for your personality no experience
I hired you for your personality
do that
just go and just just go and do that and but you know
when you look at how school is and
and everything around you is just like
oh my don't take this stay in the lane yeah
do that and it's just um
it does coach you that way doesn't it
yeah absolutely yeah
that's that's
that's what the whole world is like
yeah Tom
you've been great yeah
I really appreciate you joining me today
if you uh
if you don't know follow the bagel projects
I'm so excited to see how quickly this one scales and
uh yeah
appreciate it great cheers
thank you for joining me cheers
thank you thank you