The Chemical Show: Where Leaders Talk Business

Curious about the booming potential of Alberta’s Industrial Heartland and its impact on the global petrochemical landscape? Join Victoria Meyer as she speaks with Mark Plamondon, Executive Director of the Alberta Industrial Heartland Association, to uncover the immense benefits of investing in this strategic region. From low-cost feedstocks and world-class carbon management systems to a robust infrastructure and skilled workforce, Mark highlights the unique advantages that have positioned Alberta’s Industrial Heartland as a premier destination for major capital projects.

Mark discusses significant developments, including Dow's groundbreaking net-zero ethylene manufacturing facility and Shell's advancements in carbon capture projects. The episode also touches on the role of logistical certainty, international investments, and the region's future growth prospects. Additionally, hear about the upcoming Canadian Petrochemical Summit in Lake Louise, which promises to be a vital platform for industry leaders navigating global markets and fostering meaningful connections.

Be sure to check out the full episode to learn more about:

A look at the growth of Alberta's Industrial Heartland
Breaking down the economics: How feedstock advantages shape petrochemical investment decisions
The role of carbon capture in industrial development - from existing operations to future expansion plans and why timing matters
How global supply chain dynamics and port strikes are affecting industrial development, plus insights on Asian investment trends in North America
The challenges of navigating uncertainty in a changing political landscape - and how regions work to maintain stable investment environments
A discussion on leadership - why stepping up to take clear positions matters and the importance of leading with integrity

"There's so many things that need to line up for a company to reach final investment decision... helping roadblocks out of the way or streamline the process, or just getting the information that they need to make a decision or partnering them with the right people to get their project moving forward, all part of the process here, and that's what we're doing here." - Mark Plamondon

Other links:

Mark Plamondon Episode 145 Alberta’s Industrial Heartland’s Competitive Edge in Petrochemicals

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Creators and Guests

Host

Victoria Meyer

Host of The Chemical Show; founder and President of Progressio Global

What is The Chemical Show: Where Leaders Talk Business?

Looking to lead, grow, and stay ahead in the trillion-dollar global chemical industry? The Chemical Show - the #1 business podcast for the chemical industry - is your go-to resource for leadership insights, business strategies, and real-world lessons from the executives shaping the future of chemicals. Grow your knowledge, your network, and your impact.

Each week, you'll hear from executives from across the industry - from Fortune 50 to midsize to startups. You’ll hear how they're tacking today's challenges and opportunities, their origin story (what got them here!), how you can take and apply these lessons and insights to your own business and career.

We talk:
- Business Transformation
- Innovation
- Digitization of business
- Strategy
- Supply Chain
- and so much more

Founder and host Victoria King Meyer is an expert interviewer - who brings out the best in each guest. She gained her industry experience at leading companies, including Shell, LyondellBasell and Clariant. Today, she is a high-performance coach and advisor to business leaders in chemicals and energy, as well as the host of The Chemical Show podcast, and founder of The Chemical Summit.

Websites:
https://www.thechemicalshow.com
https://www.thechemicalsummit.com
https://www.progressioglobal.com

Welcome to The Chemical Show, the
podcast where chemical means business.

I'm your host, Victoria Meyer,
bringing you stories and insights

from leaders, driving innovation and
growth across the chemical industry.

Each week, we explore key trends,
real world challenges, and the

strategies that make an impact.

Let's get started.

Victoria: Welcome back
to The Chemical Show.

Today, I am speaking with Mark Plamondon,
who is the executive director of the

Alberta Industrial Heartland Association.

You may remember that Mark is
previously a guest on The Chemical

Show, and we will link to that episode
so that you've got access to that.

And we're going to be talking about
the wonderful world of Canada and

specifically Alberta and the industrial
heartland, and just the, the Benefits

of investing in that region and more.

So Mark, thanks for joining me today.

Mark: Very nice to see you,
Victoria, and thank you once

again for having me on the show.

Appreciate

Victoria: Absolutely.

So just provide If you would a
brief overview to you and what

your role is within the heartland
and also to the heartland itself.

Mark: Glad to do so, for sure.

So, so thanks for the introduction.

Yeah, so I'm Mark Plamondon and I'm the
Executive Director here at Alberta's

Industrial Heartland Association.

And our association, we represent
Municipalities, five municipalities,

the city of Edmonton, city of
Fort Saskatchewan, Strathcona,

Sturgeon, and Lamont counties.

These all have land in an area called
Alberta's Industrial Heartland,

which sits in the northeast corner
of the Edmonton region in Alberta.

So just for those in the show, if
you go to Alberta and then Edmonton

in the northeast corner of Edmonton,
there's a 582 square kilometer heavy

industrial cluster called Alberta's
Industrial Heartland, it is Canada's

largest hydrocarbon processing region.

will talk a little bit later about,
the competitive advantages are and why

companies are building projects here.

But what we do, our association, we're
funded by those municipalities and

we are in sort of three main areas.

We're focused on, promoting the region.

So there's a huge marketing component.

do a fair amount of international travel.

We work with companies when they're
assessing their next capital project.

We want them assess the industrial
heartland and see if their next

major capital project makes sense
in Alberta's industrial heartland.

Victoria: Yeah

Mark: we also have a significant
effort in improving the region.

So improving is either from a
competitiveness standpoint, an

infrastructure standpoint, a
regulatory streamlining standpoint.

This is all done through advocacy
and partnerships with government and

with other like minded stakeholders.

And then we also have somebody focused on,
you know, communications, social license,

making sure that there's good dialogue
between industry and community and that

there's support for growth in the region.

In a growing region, it's obviously
very helpful if you have supportive

community and strong social
license, which we have here.

So we spend a fair amount of time on
that as well in partnership with the,

with the companies that operate here.

Victoria: Yeah, and I
think that's so critical.

I think the role that you guys play is
so critical because of course investment

doesn't just happen It happens with the
support of the community, with the support

of organizations such as yours, the
municipality, and also other companies.

I think it's, it's so critical the
role that you play in this area.

Mark: Yeah, there's so many things
that need to line up for a company

to reach final investment decision.

And so helping roadblocks out of the
way or streamline the process, or just

getting the information that they need to
make a decision or partnering them with

the right people to get their project
moving forward, all part of the process

here, and that's what we're doing here.

Victoria: Awesome.

I love it.

So when we last spoke Dow had
just announced its FID for

its net zero cracker, ethylene
cracker in Fort Saskatchewan.

And to the extent that you're
able to, how is that progressing?

Mark: yes, it was probably,
it was over a year ago.

Maybe 12 months ago or so, 11,
12, 13 months ago, I think,

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: that Dow reached final
investment decision for this.

They're the world's first net zero,
ethylene manufacturing facility here

in the industrial heartland, which was
a, very exciting announcement for our

region because it's such a large project.

Not only is it such a large project,
it is, of course, that first net zero

ethylene manufacturing facility that
really puts Industrial Heartland on

the map, I think, because, of course,
Dow is a global company and they can

put capital in a lot of places and
they have chosen to do this project

here in Alberta's Industrial Heartland.

I can't speak.

to their project, of course, but
just in general, in the industrial

heartland, there's been so much activity.

And of course, the big
project is the Dow project.

We are seeing ramping up of of
traffic through through the region.

We are seeing workforces grow,
to meet the growing construction

profile, primarily at the Dow site.

We'd expect, you know, peak labor
to be reaching here, but probably

by the of this year, but we're

Victoria: Wow,

Mark: Growth their site and then in
a number of other areas as well when

it comes to construction activities,
because since the Dow project reached

FID, there's been a couple other
final investment decisions, which

are in the public domain as well.

Shell reached final investment
decision on their Polaris project,

which is a carbon capture project
at the Shell Scotford site.

Victoria: that's excellent.

Mark: about carbon sequestration
capability in this region and why that's

a competitive advantage for us here.

also Shell, in partnership with ATCO and
Power, announced their Atlas project,

which is a sequestration project.

So these both these projects
were announced final investment

decisions at the same time.

So there's activities
for that project as well.

also seeing, um, there's
current construction activities

in fractionation facilities.

There's fractionation
expansions in the region.

So there's, Lots of activity that we're,
approaching a 50 billion, 45 to 50 billion

of assets in the ground here now, and
before the end of the decade will be

well over 60 billion, in assets, um, 60
to 65 billion in assets, probably with

growth and fractionation, of course,
the net zero ethylene manufacturing.

There's also, Lindy has announced that
they're building a 2 billion hydrogen

facility on the Dow site to meet the needs
of the net zero path to zero project.

So just,

Victoria: amazing.

So it is.

I haven't been up to Canada in
several years, but I can only

imagine that it is really hustling
and bustling in that region.

Not just because the invest
those direct investments, but

of course, we also know that.

I think ACC had published some data
a while ago that says something

like seven jobs are created for
every job that's created inside

the petrochemical industry, right?

Whether it be grocery stores and schools
and doctors and nurses and all of that.

So that's a huge impact for your region.

Mark: Yeah.

There's both the direct and the indirect.

There's, there's, there's all that stuff.

There's the indirect impacts as well, but
also the spend that the companies have

amongst other companies, the supply chain.

I mean, of course, there's the effects
from workers staying in hotels and eating

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: that stuff.

But, but even the spend of companies
in the industrial heartland, a real

economic engine for the region, for
the province and for the country.

Victoria: Yeah.

So what about the Heartland
makes it such an attractive

place for companies to invest?

Yeah.

Mark: you know, really optimistic
about the future growth here

for the industrial heartland.

And there's, there's a few things
have been competitive advantages.

For decades, of course, and then
there's really the growth in the,

in the drive for low carbon products
and industrial decarbonization

that enhances that further.

But, you know, just to start the main,
the main economic driver in this part

of the world is the low cost feedstocks.

So low cost methane, propane, ethane,
butane, particularly in the petrochemical

space coming out of natural gas, natural
gas liquids, you know, in North America,

it's the lowest cost feedstocks in North
America, your discount rate here versus

Gulf Coast is typically between 30 to 40%.

I mean, that, of course, ranges
day to day, but on average,

you're looking 30 to 40 percent
discount for those feedstocks here.

And when your

Victoria: that's real money.

Mark: When your largest operating
cost is your feedstock, having a

significant discount for your, your
methane or your propane or whatever

you're using as your feedstock, that's
a tremendous competitive advantage.

And as you know, those feedstock costs
in North America are a lot cheaper

than other parts of the world, too.

There's, there's a few pockets, of
course, that have still have really strong

advantage, but in general, North American.

Feedstock costs are low relative
to other jurisdictions and here in

Alberta where we have a discount
compared to say the Gulf Coast.

So there is a tremendous economic
advantage and that's driven

investment here for decades.

What's really been, I'm going to say,
interesting over the last five years,

five to seven years is the interest
in producing lower carbon products.

Thanks.

And

Victoria: Right.

Mark: leads to companies looking at,
carbon capture and sequestration is,

is 1 of the technologies that large
emitters would look to this jurisdiction.

It's world leading when it comes to that.

You know, we've got region has operating
carbon sequestration assets in this

region been operating since 2015.

There's the Alberta carbon trunk line
is a carbon trunk line that leads to

additional sequestration capability,
That was built with capacity of 14.

6 million tons a year of
CO2 carrying capability.

It's

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: you know, around 10%.

Victoria: Wow.

Mark: got 90 percent and capability
in that asset that companies can take

advantage of that that that capital is

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: the ground and companies
can come in and work with the

Alberta carbon trunk line to look
to sequester, but that's just one

Victoria: Yeah, I think that's, I
think that's so significant because

of course we know that there's a lot
of companies and and regions talking

about building carbon capture and
sequestration, and it's expensive, right?

It is an expensive project to build.

It is time consuming to build any
of that, and so for that to be

part of your core infrastructure
is a real significant advantage.

Mark: Well, it's infrastructure
today that's working today.

So it's

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: It's it's operational today.

So it's not like it's something that we're
hoping to do, or that this region has

that companies in this region have built.

pipeline.

That's an example.

But I also want to elaborate
on that a little bit.

The government of Alberta.

to three years ago, um, they
allocated poor space and they

identified carbon hub operators.

They awarded carbon hub operator status.

So there's 6, 6 of them in the, in the,
in the region that are now progressing

projects for, or at least doing the
studies that are necessary and trying

to understand, if they'll advance
their, their, their carbon hub operator

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: Um, one of them is the
Atlas project that I mentioned

earlier, but there's, there's.

You know, so for those five
others that are under study,

so that would give optionality.

So you're building a large
emitting petrochemical facility.

You have optionality or you will
have optionality as to where you can,

how you can manage your emissions.

And so carbon management is another
key advantage here that I'm going

to say that over the last 5 to
7 years is really maybe the.

10 years on the outset but has
really come to the forefront

here as a competitive advantage.

So you've got low cost feedstocks,
carbon management capability.

Then you have logistics here with respect
to proximity or getting the markets.

So you know, two class one railways,
service the area, moving products

out to the West Coast or the East
Coast or down to the Gulf Coast,

good accessibility into the United
States markets with the rail networks.

And then, of course, you know, we've
got 582 square kilometers of flat

pre zone, heavy industrial land,

Victoria: yeah,

Mark: workforce here.

You come and look at the
industrial cluster here.

We encourage companies to
come and have a look here.

Victoria: yeah.

Mark: the cluster and you'll realize
that the skilled workforce that's here

to operate and build these facilities.

It's a bonafide cluster as skilled
workforce to do what needs to be done.

And I'm really excited and
optimistic about the future

Victoria: I think that's exciting.

And I think a few points
of that are so critical.

So number one, I think just the natural
gas backbone from a feedstock perspective

on a relative basis, it's already a
relatively clean feedstock as compared

to heavy oils as a pairs compared to
coal, which, uh, you know, again, is

being utilized as a feedstock for
some chemical products elsewhere.

So I think just starting with that and
then layering in the carbon capture,

layering in the infrastructure and,
in the workforce becomes compelling.

Cause you know, as you know, and
we've talked about this before, I've

spent some time developing projects,
back in my corporate days and, you

know, location, location, location.

Close to the customer, close to the feed
stocks and close to your transportation

is, is critical, but also being in a
friendly, and well skilled business

environment is really critical.

Mark: I just want to add one more
thing to Victoria's is, you know, we've

done some work over the last year.

We will be rolling that out
probably here in the first quarters.

We've done some work benchmarking
our industrial cluster here versus

other some other global industrial
clusters from a because you

mentioned, you know, carbon intensity.

And so we're doing that
from a nESG lens basically.

And so that, you know, the carbon
intensity of your feedstocks,

your grid, the capability or the
diversity of your workforce and

skill set and proximity of workforce.

Like there's a whole bunch of measures
between the environment and social

and governance range that we've
used to benchmark the industrial

heartland versus other jurisdictions.

And, you know, really for a
functioning industrial cluster, it's

world leading from that standpoint.

So for companies globally
where that matters, this will

be a jurisdiction for them.

Victoria: We're in a
changing world, right?

In a lot of ways.

When I think about just the global
economics and the geopolitical

climate, the U S has just
inaugurated a new president.

Canada's poised for
another federal election.

There's just a lot going on.

How does this influence
investment in Alberta?

How, how are you managing and
navigating some of those changes?

Mark: Yeah.

So it's a good question.

I mean, You'll hear often and
when you're talking with business

leaders and others, like, you know,
uncertainty is, is always a headwind for

investment and you can understand why.

I mean, when you're investing other
people's money and lots of it, hundreds

of millions or billions of dollars,
you know, boards of directors and

executives, or there'll be, there'll be
a tendency to wait and see what the, if

the uncertainty is going to become more
certain before you can make a decision.

And

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: typically uncertainty.

Leads to bit of a pause
in capital investment.

And so there's not much we can do
about the uncertainty, but what

we can do is a few pillars, a few
things that we, that we focus on.

So of course we have an advocacy
component that we work with like

minus stakeholders on where we're
advocating for specific policies.

Over the years, we've been fortunate
that there's been good traction in

a lot of things that have improved
competitiveness and improved the

regulatory streamlining here in Alberta.

So, you know, we put in our best efforts
to work with like minded partners and

governments to try to, improve the
region from a number of fronts, that

hopefully improves the certainty for,
for companies that are looking to invest.

So that's, so that's, um, one.

We also, Help companies navigate the
system here, the regulatory framework, or

Victoria: Hmm.

Mark: right people in the government
to navigate so that they can

understand the complexities of
the system a little bit better.

The actual uncertainty itself,
though, it's at very top

levels of governments, that's.

You know, it'll be what it'll be.

And I

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: will figure it out.

It's a bit of a wait and see, I think,
at the moment, and we'll figure out

Victoria: Hmm.

Mark: the world's going to look
like from a policy standpoint and

make the appropriate decisions.

Victoria: Yeah, makes sense.

And I know we've also seen, a few,
uh, supply chain challenges recently.

In fact, the, the U.

S.,

somehow all of our ports have decided
that this was the year to strike.

We saw it in Canada.

We saw it in the U.

How do you see that
playing out going forward?

And did, did you have any role in,
uh, or were you also watching on

the sidelines like the rest of us?

Mark: Well, again, the message around,
you know, stable, certain logistic

supply chains is so important for

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: in

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: Being landlocked.

It's so important for us to be able to
move products and not not only just being

landlocked, but also the majority of the
products in this region are exported.

So we need access to export markets.

And so,

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: that uncertainty again is is
significant headwind for investment,

especially from an international investor.

So just being a voice there, of course,
is what the best that we can do and

trying to really raise awareness that
look from an international standpoint,

any hiccup or interruption to logistics,
supply chains, logistics to getting

products to international markets that
would cause international investors in

their overall assessment, that would
probably be a strike against this

Victoria: Yeah.

But they're also, but it's
also temporary, right?

Those things have gotten resolved.

Those are temporary, I
guess blips in the system.

And in fact, I spoke with Kevin
Yttre, who's a investment banker a

few weeks ago on the chemical show.

And he really talked about the U S
being a very attractive market for

Asian investors, because they're
looking for secure and growing markets.

I would assume the same is true in Canada.

Are you seeing the same interest
in international investment?

Mark: So for our region, absolutely.

There's a lot of interest from
Asian companies primarily looking

to invest in projects that would
export the products to their markets.

Victoria: Hmm.

Mark: I mean, there are some companies
that are looking, they want to access

North American markets and build a
facility here get a foothold into

the North American markets that
there's some interest there too.

But I'd say a lot of our interest from
Asian customers or Asian clients,

companies that are looking to build
projects or look at petrochemical

projects, I'd say the largest
interest is building a facility in the

industrial heartland and then accessing.

Victoria: Yeah.

Yeah.

Mark: here.

Now, proximity and the connectivity from
here is really attractive more so than

I'd say from the Gulf Coast in the U.

Because getting our product to the West
Coast Port of Prince Rupert, for example,

that shipping time from the Port of Prince
Rupert into Let's say Japan, for example,

that shipping time is about half than
if you came out of the Gulf Coast, had

Victoria: No kidding.

Mark: the canal and then over.

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: we've got really good
proximity to Asian markets from

West Coast, British Columbia,

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: Coast of Canada, and we've got
good rail connectivity to the West Coast.

So we do have a lot of companies,
a lot of interest in looking at

building facilities in the industrial
heartland, moving products to meet

the growing needs in Asian markets.

Victoria: Yeah.

Makes sense.

And again, as we talked about with the
infrastructure, feedstock costs, skilled

workforce, it becomes really cost
effective as well to build and export.

Mark: Well, definitely.

I mean,

Victoria: Yeah,

Mark: know, clustering has advantages.

There's a skill set here.

Some outputs from one
become inputs to another.

So when you have a bona fide cluster
like you have in the industrial heartland

and you have the connectivity like
we have here, think that's a, gives a

lot of confidence to foreign investors
when they're looking to invest and see,

okay, this is a function of cluster
world class companies operate here.

Victoria: yeah,

Mark: here that we need to understand.

Victoria: So I know that you
are gearing up for the Canadian

Petrochemical Summit in June.

And this is, I guess the second time
you guys have hosted this event, and

it's really, an opportunity to showcase
the heartland, and what it can do.

So can you tell us just a little
bit more about that event?

Mark: Absolutely.

So I believe it's their third time, to be

Victoria: Okay, third, yeah.

Mark: may even be fourth, but I, I have to

Victoria: Alright, so I
haven't been counting.

That's okay, we'll fix it.

Ha ha ha.

Mark: it's a, it's a very focused Canadian
petrochemical summit, but we're really,

it's really, small group intended to
really have the decision makers and key

participants in the petrochemical sector.

So it's so that it'll be high
value for them to be in such an

intimate setting, having discussions
around the petrochemical industry

issues of the day, potential
opportunities to work together, etc.

So, this, this year is June 17th to 19th.

It'll be in Lake Louise.

It's the first time we're
doing it out at Lake

Victoria: Nice.

Mark: in the mountains.

So think about the setting, right?

You've

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: a fairly, small focus
group in the mountains.

You're there for 2 to 3 days.

You're not going anywhere from there.

You're, you're doing some wonderful
things out in the mountains.

You're either.

You're enjoying maybe
some golf or hiking, etc.

before the conference happens.

But, but it's not like at the
end of the afternoon, you're

going for dinner somewhere else.

No, you're all, you're
there at Lake Louise.

It's very focused.

It's a great networking opportunity,
really focused on having decision

makers and participants in the
petrochemical sector there.

So that's what this event is all about.

And it's in Lake Louise in the
middle of June, June 17th and 19th.

Victoria: I like that.

Well, and it's, and it's, you know,
I've, I've got my own conference

that I run in the fall, the chemical
summit, but, different focus.

But yet I also recognize the uniqueness
of having a small event focused just on

leaders and building those relationships,
having the right conversations is so

critical because it doesn't necessarily
happen a lot in our industry.

A lot of the events are big.

Dine and dash meet and greets
where you're running all day long.

And so having the opportunity to
spend time together and connect and

reflect and grow is really critical.

Mark: Yeah, both styles
have a role for sure.

We just

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: that this focused event
specifically on petrochemicals, we

think that's adding value in the end,
like we're not in the business like

Victoria: No,

Mark: We're in

Victoria: no.

Mark: of facilitating development and

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: advance projects.

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: we just want to the
end result is that right?

We want companies to be able to connect
and advanced conversations and ideas.

And so having a focus
conference, we think helps with

Victoria: And I, and I know that the theme
this year is navigating global markets.

What can you tell us about the theme
and some of the speak speakers or

topics that, people will expect?

Mark: know, navigating global markets
really just highlights that, you know, the

petrochemical sector here, it is a global
conversation, particularly what we just

talked about with some of the geopolitics.

So, you know, the types of themes
that we talk about and speakers

we get in, we'll get experts.

We usually start off with, you know,
global market trends in the petrochemical

sector and then drill down into, you
know, specific feedstock outlooks,

in Western Canada and North America.

And then there's conversations
around supply chain.

And we talked about.

some supply chain challenges.

It's always useful to have a conversation
on on geopolitics and world politics and

get experts in on that and that as well.

I think that's interesting for some of the

Victoria: Absolutely.

Mark: So, we found it.

We've had really good feedback.

It's a very

Victoria: Cool.

Mark: couple of days.

And,

Victoria: Good.

Mark: so, you know,

Victoria: I love it.

Mark: com or Canadian cdn,
cdn petrochemicalsummit.

com to get more information.

Victoria: Okay.

Awesome.

We'll include a link so that
people can find it as well.

So final question for you, Mark, you
have worked with a lot of global leaders,

both in the public sector, in the
private sector, What characteristics

really stand out about a great leader?

Mark: I mean, business schools look
at leadership all the time and there's

courses on leadership and, know, at least
in my experience, and first of all, let's

talk from personal experience and then

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: from what I've seen.

That leadership position, of course,
the first and foremost thing is you

need to actually, Take a leadership
position because in the absence

of taking a leadership position,
there's a void and then people fill

that void with their own narratives.

So,

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: before you say whether
they're a great leader, just to

be a leader, it sounds trivial
and maybe a little bit trite.

But, that leadership position where you're
out front saying this is, How I think we

need to go and get people to rally behind
you taking that leadership positions.

First and foremost, whether you're a
great leader or not, the differences

between what that leadership position is.

Are you doing it with integrity and
conviction and driving that forward?

So, I guess from what I've seen,
when I look at that I've worked for,

who I think have been great leaders

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: have been great leaders is, is
you're driving that leadership position,

but you're doing so with integrity
and conviction you're convincing

people that you're coming from the
right place and then you, you have

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: to say that this is,
this is the way forward.

And those two things, coupled
with that, just stepping out

front and being the leaders.

I know it's, it's a bit of a circular
conversation because in order to be a

leader, you got to take a leadership
position, of course, but you've seen

in politics in, in, in some cases
where you have a void, like if, if you

don't have your, your leader coming
forward and saying this, then there's

a void and others and others fill it,

Victoria: Yeah.

I mean, this whole thing around owning
your space, you got to own your space.

Mark: business as well.

You're going to

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: my view, anyway, your leader needs
to be Communicating up front that this

is the position you've got integrity
and conviction and then your workers and

your company and everyone will see that.

And I'm going to follow this because
it's coming from the right place.

It's got conviction and that's
at least off the top of my head.

What I've seen.

I know that when I was initially
put into in the leadership roles.

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: I remember that being sort of
the initial stress was something's

happened and you need to be taking a
leadership position up front and, and

that's, that's the step you need to take.

That was the first real big learning
for me when I was in my, put in

my first leadership position.

It's like, wait a second.

Okay.

This is on me.

This isn't, I can't wait for someone else.

I've got to be out front
taking that position.

And, and sure you're in conversation
with the people that you work

with, but you've got to be the
one up front taking that position

and with integrity and conviction.

off the top of my head.

Victoria.

Victoria: That's good.

I really love that though.

And I think it, I think it's great.

And I think first of all, the integrity
and conviction are really critical.

But to your point that making that
switch into a leadership position, I

used to sometimes tell people, I'm like,
it's now your turn to define the work.

And the path like we go along
in our careers so long as being

worker bees, if you will, right?

Like letting somebody else
lead and set direction.

And that first flip into a leadership
role when it's like, oh no, I'm

setting the direction is so critical.

People are people expected of you.

And that's also how you define yourself.

Mark: so it's really interesting because
until you put in that position, or

at least for me, until I was put in
that position, you don't really think

of it that way until you're in it.

So the

Victoria: Yeah,

Mark: me in my career, you
know, I sort of had a pretty

big jump into a leadership role

Victoria: yeah,

Mark: So I'm now leading
a foreign operation.

You know, and everyone's looking to you.

Victoria: yeah,

Mark: need to be up front
taking that position.

I remember that specifically, it
was like, okay, I'm, I'm, everyone's

looking to me to set direction and, and

Victoria: yeah.

Mark: up and do it.

And so great leaders for me
of you're not leaving a void.

You're taking a leadership
position with, with, again, with

integrity and conviction to try

Victoria: I love it.

I think it makes a lot of sense
and I know that's what you do

every day at the Heartland.

Mark: Well, hopefully my team thinks so.

Victoria: I'm sure they do.

I'll ask them afterwards.

How's that?

Well, Mark, this has been
a great conversation.

Thank you so much for joining
me on the chemical show.

Mark: Victoria, thanks for
having me again, and I really

appreciate the conversation.

Victoria: Absolutely.

And thank you everybody for listening.

Keep listening, keep following, keep
sharing, and we will talk again soon.

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today on The Chemical Show.

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