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In today's episode, Krysia is joined by Sophie Killingley to discuss her book, "Blessed Are the Neurodivergent".
The transcript of the episode is available here: https://share.transistor.fm/s/49802736/transcript.txt
The transcript of the episode is available here: https://share.transistor.fm/s/49802736/transcript.txt
If you have any questions, or just want to say hi, email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on social media @autismtheology.
This podcast is brought to you by The University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology.
The artwork for this podcast uses the Centre for Autism and Theology Logo, created by Holly Russell.
Creators and Guests
Host
Ian Lasch
PhD candidate at the university of Aberdeen researching autism and the Imago Dei
Host
What is Autism and Theology Podcast?
The Autism and Theology Podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways in which both faith and non-faith communities can enable autistic people to flourish.
Our episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every month. We have a variety of guests who are related in some way to the field of autism and theology. Some are academics, others are people with life stories to share, and some are both!
We also release CATChat every third Wednesday of the month. These are shorter and more informal episodes where your hosts will share news and give you as listeners an opportunity to ask questions and share your stories.
Krysia
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology Podcast. I'm Krysia and I'm delighted you've joined us this week. The podcast is a space where we engage with the latest developments and discussions in the field of autism and theology, sharing relevant resources and promoting ways for faith
and non-faith communities to enable autistic people to flourish. If you'd like to access the transcript for this episode, it can be found in the link in the show notes. And today we have a wonderful discussion with Sophie Killingley about Blessed Be the Neurodivergent. So hi, Sophie.
Sophie
Hi, thanks for having me, Krysia.
Krysia
It's no problem at all. And I wonder if you could tell us a bit about yourself and your work and what you get up to for people who don't know you.
Sophie Killingley 0:54
Yeah, absolutely. Yes, I'm Sophie Killingley. I am married to Pete and I have two autistic teenagers, they are now. And I'm an illustrator and author. I do live illustration at events, which is very fun. But I also write books as well. And I kind of find myself in my work at the kind of intersection of art and faith and neurodivergence and humour. So my first book was a creative spiritual journal called Draw Near and that was to kind of help people connect their spiritual life with their kind of creative selves. And then this second book, it's my first like long form book, Blessed and the Neurodivergent, and that's now out with IVP. So yes, that was a big long form attempt for me. And yeah, very excited to have that out here now.
Krysia
It's incredibly exciting and I guess it would be really interesting to know what led you to write Blessed Are the Neurodivergent.
Sophie
Yeah, well, I think first of all, you know, I'm a mum to two autistic kids. It's been part of my life. They're both teenagers now, but my son was diagnosed aged 3. It was very kind of classic autism signs. And as we know, that diagnostic criteria is weighted towards the male presentation. So it was fairly simple, getting a diagnosis for him. And then my daughter was diagnosed later, as is often the way, age 9. And I was also a pastor's wife for 10 years. And so I saw up close and personal what it's like for autistic and neurodivergent families to kind of be in a church environment like the good, the bad and the ugly. And I'm also recently diagnosed ADHD myself. Woo, I know, congrats me for actually getting that paperwork done. It took me about five years.
Krysia
Woo!
Sophie
And basically, I really needed someone to have written this book for me about 15 years ago. I was really desperate for somebody to help make sense of what was happening. Make me feel seen and my experiences like validated and also importantly, to kind of not have our family spiritual life scrutinised through like a neurotypical lens. So yeah, I was just, I advocated so long for other additional needs families. And I knew it wasn't just my family experiencing this. So I have to write this. So I knew it was the story of so many people. So
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
I wanted to kind of get some like qualitative data just to kind of show this is not just my story. This is the story of so many people and we need to kind of work together in church spaces and understand this a lot better.
Krysia
Definitely. And could you tell us a bit about kind of what's in Blessed Are the Neurodivergent?
Sophie
Yeah, sure. I mean, so I wanted somebody to write a book and I really hoped someone would. I'd backed away from this book for years because people kept saying, oh, can you write about your experiences? And I'm like, someone else can do it. But I found that, you know, I've read an awful lot of books around neurodivergence and faith and I found that there's loads of great kind of more academic ones. I found there's some really great memoirs. And there's a couple of more recently kind of more kind of practical manuals for churches. But I wanted to kind of really combine something for the kind of the lay person, the average person, which really kind of kind of combines that, giving them a good framework of understanding what is what we're talking about in neurodiversity, what is it?
and giving them like lived experience, also delving into a little bit of theology and Bible and what can we deduce from what the Bible says about like what God's heart is for neurodivergent families. And then having kind of understood that, look at church and go, so how are we holding up here?
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
And like I put a survey out into the world and I had like over 300 neurodivergent individuals and their families telling me about their experience of like faith and church. And so in kind of part three of the book, that's where we really get into looking at neurodivergent mind when it comes to faith and practise, also critiquing that the culture that we have in churches, which is so often in just neurotypical culture. And we say it's a spiritual standard or a biblical standard. And most of the time, it's kind of a middle class neurotypical standard. So I wanted to kind of like really spell that out. And then also just offer some like hope and like, how can we step towards each other? There is a lot of misunderstanding and also a lot of trauma on one side as well, feeling
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
repeatedly misunderstood in church spaces. So how can we walk together and figure this out and yeah, move together?
Krysia
Definitely. As soon as you said there's a middle-class neurotypical standard, I immediately thought of some of the research I've done where I literally one of the people I spoke to went, there's a neurotypical standard. So I'm really, it's just, it's really interesting how it's really implicit and we might not
Sophie
Yeah.
Krysia
want to go about doing it, but it happens anyway, implicitly.
Sophie
Yeah. Absolutely. There's so much in our churches which is like that, you know, the ability to be able to just sit still and listen to essentially a lecture for 20 to 30 minutes, depending on your denomination on a Sunday. And, you know, your kind of spiritual maturity is based on whether you can do that in a, you know,
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
You know, and that suits some people brilliantly and then others absolutely not. And that's not a spiritual failing, just a simple brain wiring and a different way of learning. So I just really wanted churches to get that.
Krysia
Yeah, definitely. And I absolutely loved the letters at the end of part one and two. So just for context for people who haven't read Sophie's book, at the end of part one and part two, at the end of part one, there's a letter for parents from Sophie with some beautiful illustrations. And at the end of part 2, there's one for neurodivergent people.
Sophie
Yeah.
Krysia
from Sophie with some beautiful illustrations. I think they kind of add to the personal touch and as you said, talking to the just the lay person rather than making it all kind of
Sophie
Yeah.
Krysia
academic and I wonder what drew you to write those letters because they're so interesting and so personal.
Sophie
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what I wanted it to be. I mean, when I was writing the book, I was kind of aware that I was trying to bring along with me quite disparate groups in some ways. I'm trying to introduce the concept of neurodiversity to people in churches and pastors and, you know, maybe like people's extended family who aren't that familiar. So I'm trying to explain a lot of concepts, but most of all, I wanted the neurodivergent people themselves to feel like this is representing me and my experience. But I didn't want it just to be like descriptive. I wanted to like address them, you know, address them in the way that I needed to be addressed. You know, I was desperate to have someone write me a compassionate letter and say, like, as a parent and be like, you're not failing. It just really is that hard to, you know, raise neurodivergent kids in a neurotypical world. And I have that kind of misunderstanding and misunderstanding and judgement surrounding you. Like, it's hard, and I need you to know that you're not failing and you're not a terrible parent and you're not missing some kind of standard, like it's difficult. So I really wanted to just bring that personal touch and bring that encouragement and point to things that had helped me, mostly which was finding other neurodivergent
families, because no one else really gets it. It's a very unique thing, you know, and as much people can try and understand and I appreciate their attempts, you know, and that's important. Neurodivergent families, we have a dark humour, we have an understanding of the way the world is. So just kind of encouraging that. And then I wanted to write, yeah, to neurodivergent people themselves, especially to adults,
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
You know, because I feel like sometimes they get missed out of the mix. You know, a lot of things can be about neurodivergent families, which is huge and very important, but also, you know, neurodivergent children grow up to be neurodivergent adults. And so they needed to have, yeah, compassion. And I just wanted, yeah,
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
I wanted to be able to write to them and say what you're experiencing is real and I've experienced some of that kind of spiritual and church hurt where you feel like you're failing at life and then suddenly you feel like you're failing at a cosmic level spiritually because you're not
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
somehow hitting these invisible standards that we've put in our churches, which, you know, again, are these neurotypical standards. So yeah, I wanted that. And I actually write a letter to pastors at the end of the book as well, because I wanted, yeah, because I wanted them to feel like I get what it's like to be in ministry. My husband was a pastor for 10 years. I get how overwhelmed and
Krysia
Ah, super.
Sophie
anxious you feel and how you feel like, oh gosh, is this another whole niche topic that I'm supposed to become an expert on? Otherwise I'm going to let a load of people down, you know. And so I wanted to encourage them to to be like, you don't have to do everything. You do have to do something. And let me encourage you just to do that, you know.
Krysia
Yeah, definitely. And I guess if you'd have received that letter kind of earlier on in your journey, what particular, other than kind of finding other neurodivergent people and families, would you have found particularly encouraging, I guess?
Sophie
Yeah, I think, again, it's that kind of reassurance that I'm not somehow failing my kids because we are struggling in life and struggling in church settings. You know, that is incredibly normal for you know, neurodivergent kids to be overwhelmed and in a crazy sensory environment, which church is. I mean, it's a sense, it's a massively challenging environment for most people, really, you know. Why do you think people have Sunday afternoon naps, you know? So, you know, it's, yeah, so I think
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
Having just that reassurance, like you're not doing horribly as a parent, it's really hard that I definitely, I found, yeah, that was something I needed to be told just to kind of have my experience. Yeah, validated and yeah, just reassured and yeah, that I wasn't failing them. You know, there's so much parental guilt.
Krysia
Yeah, definitely.
Sophie
you know, anyway. And then when you, yeah, dealing with a family which doesn't fit the norms in any kind of way. Yeah. So it's.
Krysia
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think also the fact that you've said that neurodivergent kids become parts of neurodivergent families and neurodivergent adults and obviously putting my kind of scientific hat on, neurodivergent kids can come from neurodivergent adults but don't know they're neurodivergent.
Sophie
Mhm.
Krysia
Till later on in life.
Sophie
Yes. Yes, exactly, which was exactly my experience, you know. It was only, yeah, through starting to understand neurodivergence through my kids, suddenly kind of joining those dots and going, oh, oh, that makes sense. And looking at my wider family and going,
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
Oh, okay. So that makes a lot of sense. And then having to kind of, yeah, grieve the lack of support I had, all the struggles that I had, all the ways that I judged myself for being abnormal as I saw it, you know, rather than going, oh, okay, so this is a brain wiring. This is how I work. And having that kind of accept.
Krysia
Definitely.
Sophie
So I wanted adults to feel that as well, to kind of feel seen and to be like, yeah, it's a lot to kind of, to process, but you're doing okay.
Krysia
Yeah, and I think you did a really good job of balancing everything together, because I find sometimes resources can either be really family focused, which we need, or really adult focused, which is often missing. And somehow you really, really nicely blend it all together, which is really lovely.
Sophie
Oh, thank you. I was really conscious of trying to do that, you know, and I know that I won't have hit it in every area, but I was definitely trying to kind of include as many groups as I could.
Krysia
Definitely. And I also loved the beautiful artwork, which makes sense because you're an illustrator and I know quite a few arty farty people myself. And it really helps make the book feel really friendly and accessible. So as well as you're really kind of the tone you take and the way we're just talking about it now,
Sophie
Thanks!
Krysia
I think just having images brings it to life. And I guess other than you being an illustrator, what led you to include illustrations in a long form book like this?
Sophie
Yes. Yeah, that was actually really important to me. So anyone who knows any of my work knows that whatever, however I approach something, it's always kind of with a lightness of touch and humour. I always try and find like the levity, the silly, the absurd. So I've been cartooning for years about all sorts of things like church culture things, mental health, faith issues around like the body. And I've always felt like, yeah, the best way I found to kind of deal with subjects which are actually quite weighty and sometimes painful or sensitive is through humour, to find the humour, even if it's only dark humour available. But I love to find, so like with my, it just made sense to me that like, like some of the illustrations are kind of straightforward, like infographics, like I'm really proud of the illustration I did to kind of demonstrate how the autism spectrum isn't like this linear thing from not very autistic to very autistic, but I drew it as a mixing desk. So you can see all the different dials and sliders showing the different aspects of like cognitive function, executive function, verbal processing, auditory processing, all of that kind of stuff. So that I was really proud of that one because I'm like, that's just a good infographic for people to see.
Krysia
It is because I've used a similar picture, not an infographic, but when I've done training in the past, I've gone mixing deck. So actually, it's wonderful.
Sophie
Yeah. Yeah, it's just such a good descriptor and it really helps people kind of like understand like, oh, okay, it's very, it's very different, very varied. But then I also just love like drawing the silliest cartoons about kind of conversations that I've actually had. Yeah, so I've got one which is one of my favourites, which is called the Ghost of Unsolicited Advice. And that's where you have these two parents looking very unimpressed as a ghost flies up and says, have you tried more kale?
You know, because I have had those conversations where people have suggested like to help cure my children, I do a macrobiotic diet or do more kale or whatever. Like so many wild suggestions, so which are, you know, very painful in the moment, but also hysterical afterwards when I think about them. So again, I wanted to just kind of
bring the silliness out. So yeah, that's just very much my MO. So it felt natural for me to try and do that. And I was just really glad that IVP were very open to kind of letting me do this book in my voice. I was just very anxious that, yeah, my voice come across because I was like, this is, it's an important for me to feel like I'm getting the tone right. And yeah, so.
Krysia
Definitely. And I guess my next question kind of has three bits, so we'll start with the first bit. Almost, what is your key take-home messages that you wish that churches will take home from the book kind of?
Sophie
Mhm.
Krysia
for neurodivergent adults specifically.
Sophie
Yeah. Um, I mean, I think... The biggest, what I'm always wanting churches to do, first and foremost, is to listen to neurodivergent people and their families and believe them. You know, I really want churches to be challenged. You know, so often there's so much misinformation out there, so much kind of bad faith stuff being said in the media. And I want people to put down their ideas and bias of what they think neurodiversity is and actually listen to the people with that experience. So I want churches to be challenged to do that, to kind of get out of this comfortable mindset of like making neurodivergence like a convenient spiritual problem to judge rather than something to understand. You know, I'm like, actually, you know, neurodivergent.
Krysia
Yes.
Sophie
families. They've got the same hopes and desires for their families that you do, but their life is just exponentially harder and different just by sheer genetics and brain wiring. So we need churches to understand that, you know, these are people the same hopes and dreams for you, for their families. It's just turned out different for them. So I really want churches to listen and believe. And I was actually really encouraged to get an e-mail the other day from a pastor who said he appreciated me writing with these kind of two voices in the sense that
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
I understand from the perspective of neurodivergent people, as well myself and raising a family of autistic kids, and also writing from the perspective of a pastor's wife that I was for 10 years. Because he said, had it not been for that, he said, sadly,
I might have shot down. He was just like, but because I felt that you understood what I was looking at as well, I kept going. And he's like, and actually I've learned so much and I really want to implement some of these things in my church. And I'm like, that is exactly what I was aiming for. That's exactly what I want for churches to kind of, yeah.
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
put down their bias and go, okay, actually, you know, this is about all of us. This is not about people who are lazy or weak or who haven't learned to parent properly. You know, this is actually just we're all part of the body of Christ. And this is about all of us. So yeah, that's what I wanted churches to really take away this listen and believe.
Krysia
Yeah. Yeah. And is there anything I guess extra that you wish churches would take in relation to as well as listening and believing about the parents and families, the neurodivergent families?
Sophie
I think I would like churches to kind of understand.
how this is a whole mind body wiring. So to under to kind of, I mean, I want people to kind of start to grasp the basics and think, okay, so let's look at the practical stuff like our environment. How can we make this more accessible in terms of, you know, is there are there quiet spaces? Are we encouraging a kind of environment where it's normal for people to wear
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
ear defenders or to kind of be able to move around a little bit, doodle during the service, you know, whatever it takes to help keep people engaged and like they belong in the room. But I'd also just love for pastors and leaders to understand like how neurodivergent people approach faith
Krysia
Mm.
Sophie
is just entirely different from start to finish in terms of, you know, the kind of theory of mind stuff and the way that we experience God. Like I was, that's what really, really opened my eyes. And it also like encouraged me to go and redo and get my diagnosis was how much I related to everybody's
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
description of their relationship with God and how it felt different to those around them. Just, you know, how, yeah, whether it was like not experiencing things emotionally in a church service, but having more of a cerebral understanding and being happy with that, or for other people, it was just kind of, yeah, different feeling like they couldn't be classed as a good Christian because they struggled to sit still. And like all of these things that people were sharing with me, I was like, oh, I've experienced that. Oh, that's, oh, I thought that was just me. Yeah, there's so much of that. So I'd love for churches to really start to grasp like that everything is experienced differently. You know, it's not just about, oh, loud noises, you know, autistic people don't like that. Let's make it quieter. You know, it's actually everything.
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
is approached differently and we need to be aware of that and the language we use and the way we describe things, you know, understand how that might land for different people.
Krysia
Yeah, because it's almost like we have a very different embodied, because these are posh word, embodied perspectives that everything runs through our veins, neurodivergently.
Sophie
Yeah, completely. It's just completely different. And so I'd love for churches to kind of start to kind of grasp that as well. Yeah.
Krysia
Yeah. Definitely.
Sophie
And understand how different people just encounter God and approach God in faith and practice.
Krysia
equivalent of a lay reader. So I'm very much kind of fluent, but obviously where I've never had a parent or a partner or a spouse be kind of have that leadership thing, it puts you, you're aware and you can speak the language, but it brings a whole extra richness to what you can bring to that.
Sophie
Yeah, and that was kind of, yeah, one of the reasons that I felt in the end that it has to be me that has to write this book, because I felt like I've got understanding of both raising neurodivergent children and being a neurodivergent person in church.
Krysia
to what you're saying.
Sophie
And then also being fluent in understanding what it's like to lead a church and like how challenging that is and the kind of pressures and the worries and the anxieties trying to kind of cater to different people and understanding different people's needs. So yeah, that was why I was like, oh, I have to.
to write this because I've got an insight into both of these worlds and I really want to build some bridges here.
Krysia
Yeah, definitely. And I guess what are your hopes for the reach and the impact of the book in the future? Because it feels like it's already kind of going lots of different places and I've seen you on social media talking here and going there, but kind of what have you got planned and what are your hopes for the reach of it?
Sophie
Yeah, yeah, I've been thrilled to see how many different types of people have been reading it. You know, people with who may be like are not in faith spaces at all anymore, but maybe have grew up in them, but have neurodivergent families and still be really interested to kind of to see it from this perspective. Like, I've been so, yeah, chuffed to see lots of different types of people getting my book and wanting to discuss it. I really want this book to be like a layperson's entry point, like a go-to book for like, okay, so you need some language on what is neurodiversity. a nice kind of brief theology, you know, to show that we've thought this out and then people's experiences. I wanted it to be like a nice all-in-one kind of book to be, to represent all, you know, these different thoughts. And I wanted it to be something people can really return to again and again find some wisdom and comfort. And again, I've had so many lovely messages from neurodivergent families, like one mum saying, like this book has literally accompanied me everywhere, to the garage, to the bath, while I've hidden in the bathroom crying. You know, she's like, it's just come with me everywhere and I keep returning to bits of it. And I'm like, that is what I want. I want people to feel seen and comforted.
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
And I also want church leaders to feel seen and challenged as well, you know, and I'd love to see it translated into different languages as well. I tried to write, you know, mindful like of the different systems that different countries have, you know, I've kind of tried to write like,
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
you know, like there's different disability laws and stuff like that. So I've tried to note like this is what, you know, the English laws say and this is what happens in Welsh schools and this is like what happens in the USA. I've tried to kind of note at least in footnotes. So I've tried to kind of show that even though
Krysia
Yeah.
Sophie
the rules and systems are slightly different. The experiences of the families are pretty universal, having to jump through all these loopholes to try and get support for their kids. So I'd love to see it in different languages and just to kind of like, yeah, go far and just be like a go-to for kind of a layperson's introduction to this.
Krysia
Yeah, because it feels like it's a really nice introduction to some of the work we do at CAT and some of the more kind of theological, critical, analytical and kind of lived experience stuff, which often has, it's either sat behind paywalls or it needs specific language perhaps to get into.
Sophie
Totally. And I read all of those books, you know, I really, I really enjoyed reading a lot of different kind of different levels of book and, you know, more academic and yeah, more lay, just to try and kind of see what was out there and then to kind of, yeah, translate it into kind of just simple layperson language so we could try and kind of, yeah, it would felt accessible. So, you know, we need all of these resources out there at every level. So I was just really, really happy just to add my voice to that to that layperson's level.
Krysia
Yeah. Yeah, it's almost like if it's almost like there's a party going on and now there's a new type of colour or part of the rainbow to use kind of a really colour metaphor or perhaps a new type of dance that helps just enrich in what's already there and make it easier for people to go, ah, yes, yes.
Sophie
Yeah, totally. And like in the back of my book, in the appendix, I've like, I've signposted like so many organisations and people who do individual training or like who write about this, because, you know, it was quite clear that like, I'm not the only voice. There's people doing incredible work out there. You just might not have heard of them yet. So, you know,
Krysia
Mhm.
Sophie
Here's like, it's not an exhaustive list, but just like a group at least, you know, some groups that you can look at and go, oh, okay. So I wanted to like signpost people because I'm like, I'm not the only person talking about this. There's so many people doing amazing work.
Krysia
Yeah, definitely. And if people want to kind of know more about the book, get a copy, see what else you're up to and what other fantastic work you've done, how is best to follow, get in contact, anything in that realm that basically...
Sophie
Mm.
Krysia
People might be interested.
Sophie
So you can buy my book. You can buy it straight from IVP or other kind of Christian retailers. You can get it on Amazon as well. And it's available on Kindle. Now there is an audio book, which I'm very excited about because that was very important to me to make it as accessible as possible. So there is an audiobook currently you can download it from IVP's website. When waiting for it to be on Audible, it will be there. It's just taking its time to upload, but it will be available on Audible. So yeah, I'd love if people find audiobooks easier to go for that. And I read it myself and that was super fun and super exciting to get to do. Yeah, and I am all over social media like a rash, as I say. So I'm on Instagram. That's my name, Sophie Killingley. So just Sophie Killingley. And you can see the kind of work I'm doing there with the cartooning illustration, other books that I'm working on.
And I have a website as well, sophiekillingley.com, so you can find out what I'm doing in my projects and follow along. And I would love to see you there.
Krysia
And Sophie's artwork is fantastic, having had a look through her Instagram recently. So I can heavily recommend it if that's the sort of thing you're into. And thank you also listeners for joining us for this episode. If you have any questions, you can message us at Autism Theology on Blue Sky or Instagram.
Sophie
Yeah.
Krysia
Or you can send us an e-mail at cat at abdn.ac.uk. Even if it's just to say hi, we would love to hear from you.