Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and influence the most challenging human interactions, those involving patterns of high conflict behavior. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Hi everybody. We are the co-founder of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California, where we focus on training, consulting, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. In this episode and in the next upcoming episode, this is a two-parter. We will talk about relationship violence and its relationship, if any, to personality disorders and high conflict personalities. And this episode isn't just for those who have been involved in intimate partner violence or relationship violence or those who work in the field. It's actually for everyone. It extends itself into the workplace, both directly and indirectly and also into many other areas of life. So this is definitely one for everyone. But first, a couple of notes. Send your high conflict related questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all the show notes and links. And today we'll have a lot more links than usual and in next episode as well.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Alright. All right, bill. So we're going to talk about a very touchy subject, tricky subject and a sad subject. So we just kind of want to start out by saying that domestic violence is referred to by a variety of different terms like intimate partner violence, dating and relationship violence. And we want to state right here at the beginning that neither of us are experts in this field. We are experts, however, in the high conflict field. So we kind of look at this combination of work that's been done by those who specialize in domestic violence, those who specialize in personality disorders. We just kind of get a mix of all of that because we work in many different fields such as the legal field, mental health, workplace business. So this is just our perspective from that whole mix and our experience in helping a variety of people that have been affected by this, and especially for Bill reading.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Lots and lots of research articles on the subject. So in this episode we're talking about adult relationship violence. In the next episode we'll talk about teen relationship violence. So while this touches many different areas, we're going to start in the area of family law. And it's kind of interesting. We've been doing this work for a long time and you kind of realize by the time something is to a violence level, a lot of things have been going very, very wrong. And the training we do at High Conflict Institute is to help professionals help those who may have been affected by violence and many other things. But that is one of the particulars. So we got interested in trying to help people spot a potentially violent relationship before they get into these relationships. So we wrote a book called Dating Radar back in 2017, and we took a survey as well before we wrote the book to see what people were experiencing to get their input.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So this survey was quite interesting. One of the first questions was, did you see any red flags before you either married or moved in with this person? And it was about almost 60%, around 57% that said yes, we did see red flags and some were kind of unsure, but maybe we asked questions like, did you have a spark almost immediately with this person? And it was close to 80% said yes, we had this huge spark, which I saw as a red flag. And I think Bill, you did too. So we asked a lot of questions. What were the qualities that attracted you? The biggest one was the charm, like 80% charm, extreme compatibility, things like that. And then they turned into really awful relationships and sometimes violent. So let's talk about that Bill. What did you learn from this survey and how did it comport with your expertise and experience with helping couples either individuals get divorced or in your counseling work?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Well, I think that it was real revealing to us. One of the things is that personalities that we work with, the charm is really a factor that starts and it often counterbalances the negative that the person knows. They've gotten a lot of negative feedback over their lifetime. And so they try to come on super friendly, super charming to start out. And that's why that's a warning sign because it's often a counterbalance to the lack of impulse control, the lack of remorse, lack of empathy that they may have. Once you really get to know them, there's a real tendency to not want people to know who they really are. And we find that this goes particularly with cluster B personality disorders or people that just have traits as a whole continuum here. But it didn't surprise me that charm was such a factor. Another one that did surprise me, but it really makes sense now, is fake compatibility that people would say, oh, I love birdwatching.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Oh, I know you love that and I love that too. Let's go this weekend. And that they'll pretend for six months that they love what you love. And this often happened on the wedding day or the wedding night to say, Hey, I'm not into that at all and from now on I'm in charge. And we had several people that gave us that fee. I was surprised how many said the wedding night, everything changed. And it seems to be once there's a big commitment, and it may be just getting engaged or buying a house together, even if you're not married or having a child together, even if you're not married, is some form of major commitment, then the personality comes out more fully.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Bill, is that planned or unplanned? Is it conscious or unconscious in that overnight sort of flip?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I think it depends somewhat on personalities. So I think for most high conflict people that it's unconscious is just who they are and how they instinctively operate what they think is normal and necessary. The exception I think is the antisocial or sociopathic personality, which is much more consciously planning and plotting. And I know what I'm going to do next and I know what I'm going to get. So by and large, I think it's not conscious and people are really unaware and maybe really sincere, but they can't help themselves. And it's often the lack of impulse control and a lack of empathy. They're so absorbed in what's going on for them, they can't really relate to how painful and upsetting it may be for the other person. And what's confusing to everybody is, especially in today's world, you can have an image of a wonderful person and you can maintain that. Although like we say in the book, it's hard to maintain that for more than a year. So that's why we say wait a year until making a big commitment.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
And speaking of the person that's on the other side, eventually, we wrote this book as a warning, as a help to young people primarily to know what to look for in coming relationships and that the person that they're going to either eventually marry, settle down with, be a partner with, have children, with all of those things. We've seen the really ugly side of it. And so we wrote this book as just kind of a help not to say that anyone who eventually ends up in domestic violence situations is bad or awful and we need to really demonize anyone. It's not about that at all. It's really about protecting yourself, making good decisions for yourself and knowing what potentially maybe spotting ahead of time, what's going to happen. And we included in the book What jams our radar, why do we miss this?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
And so there's several things that we included with that. One is if you're going through a hard time individually, you may be going through the loss of a prior relationship. You may be going through a divorce, you may have the death of a family member, you may be grieving a loss. And so it's painful to go through grieving a loss and some people want to rush into a new relationship to get away from those uncomfortable sadness feelings. And yet they're much better handled in a counseling office and you spend a few months with a therapist so that you're back on your feet and then look for somebody because if you're looking for somebody be your other half or to fix things that you really could fix yourself, then you're going to get into an out of balance relationship. And that's what a lot of the research says.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Relationships have a lot of reciprocity to them. They have what we evoke in each other. And so you influence the other person, the other person influences you. And so people can really find somebody that's not good for them because they're going through a not good period of time. You want to be healthy, strong, a whole person, don't look for your other half, be a whole person and look for another whole person. That's what we were saying. Another thing that jams your radar is fantasies, is fantasies about relationships. And unfortunately this comes a lot from our culture. My love will heal everything. I will change
Speaker 1 (11:05):
You. I'm that person. I can do it.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, I'm going to be your hero. And heroes don't work well in relationships. You want human beings that are real when you have someone that comes on as a heroic figure. And this we also found out in the dating radar book is the person who comes on to be your white knight and shining armor. I'll fix everything for you. I'll take care of you that this was another warning sign. You don't want somebody that wants to fix you. I can fix myself. Thank you. Right.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
So these are some of the things that make people deceive themselves. And that's one of the biggest things is don't deceive. Take some time and realize there are people out there who will try to deceive you and it's not necessarily a real conscious thing for them, but it's just part of how they were born or how they grew up. And in today's world, you've got to watch out. I'll just say another thing briefly about this waiting a year is people say, well, bill, my grandparents met and they married a week later. They just had an incredible romance and they've been married for 50 years now. So what's wrong with getting swept off your feet and getting married? Well, frankly, I think that 50 years ago you didn't have as many unknown people that there were communities extended families that people had reputations and people knew who they were dealing with. In today's world where often meeting strangers who can be very appealing, but they also can be very deceiving, the internet, social media, just images we're much more vulnerable and have to figure this out more for ourselves in ways that families and communities used to protect us in the past.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
And it's what we found and what we've heard since releasing the book. And if you look at Amazon reviews, you'll see this in writing, is that the intended audience of young people is not the audience that bought this book. It's actually those who have been through a pretty rotten relationship or divorce or maybe even a domestic violence situation. And then they read the book and they're like, wow, if I would've just had this before. But at the same time, when you're in love, when you're already intimately involved and things like that, it can jam your radar. You have those blind spots. So I think if, like you said, bill, if you want the best for your life, you pay attention and you read up and you get to use your wisdom and the wisdom of others. So I want to talk, just circle back for a moment to though you were talking about impulse control.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
When we hear the term domestic violence perpetrator, it paints a very ugly picture and it is ugly, but I think we often will then demonize that person. They're just, we have our own all or nothing thinking they're all bad. I know there are a lot of courts, there are a lot of programs that work with all sides of violence, and I've learned that with do baters treatment programs, things like that, there can be some improvement and people learn impulse control through different methods. But if we talk about the brain, if we're speaking specifically of people who do have impulse control problems, and we did look at some research surrounding this and we'll talk about it in a minute, but what is happening in the brain? It seems that with this lack of impulse control when something doesn't go their way, if I can't control this person, if this person isn't doing what I asked or the jealousy just overtakes them, what makes it happen so quickly in that sort of unplanned violence? And maybe you'll talk here about the different types of violence.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
There's so many aspects to the brain. Part of it is what you've grown up with and they say that your brain isn't fully developed until you're about 25. So when we talk about teen dating and violence, that's often one of the big explanations. Part of what I believe is happening is in the middle of your brain, your amygdala tells you danger, danger, fight or flee or sometimes freeze or submit. And so the prefrontal cortex supposed to override the amygdala if it's situations you know about and that are safe. And they say that a lot of adolescents is learning what's a crisis, what's not a crisis, and how to stay calm so that your amygdala doesn't get you too excited when somebody just says, I don't want to talk to you anymore. Goodbye. That you can handle that, that you can say, this isn't the end of the world.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
I'm not going to die. My girlfriend didn't call me back today. And that takes a learning. That's why adolescence is so kind of emotional, but then you learn to manage those emotions. So I think a lot of it is the wiring of the brain that happens as we mature. And the thing is with personalities is personality is kind of how you are the way you think, manage your feelings and behave on a somewhat automatic basis. And some people never learn that their family may have tolerated their impulsive behavior, maybe hitting behavior, maybe hit their siblings. I've done counseling cases where kids hit their parents as teenagers. And so if you grow up in a tolerant family that lets you, that's too tolerant, lets you be abusive to other people, then that's just the habit and the way the person is. And I think that's the biggest problem is you see people with a pattern of behavior that have never learned in impulse control.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Now people are born with different personality tendencies and some people have a harder time with that back to our antisocial or sociopathic personality that seems to be much more hereditary and a lot of people are born with those more aggressive tendencies. And there's some research saying that that personality hasn't reversed in terms of your amygdala says danger. And rather than your prefrontal cortex overriding that is that for them, it may be the other way around that they get excited, they get a charge out of the danger, but also that they misinterpret people's facial expressions. So they think when you have a neutral expression, they think you're hostile. They call it a hostility bias, or if you're frightened, they don't see that. They see you as a neutral face. So some of the brain biology seems to be different with the antisocial personality, which can be the most charming and deceitful at the same time. So think about people that just don't understand themselves and lack impulse control and think of the people that do think more consciously about this and do stuff on purpose.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Fascinating, having that hostility bias. And we have to remember too that this person doesn't know that they have zero awareness that this isn't usual, right?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah. Well, a lack of self-awareness is a big part of the problem. And a lot of it's from upbringing, bad experiences maybe, and a lot of it may just be inborn biology. Some people come from wonderful homes and act really badly. So it's a whole range there, and hopefully that's what people are getting out of this. But to have your own radar, to have your own awareness of other people's behavior and not just their words.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah. So talking again about antisocial personality, we have some research here that's indicates an association between antisocial personality disorder and an increased risk of engaging in aggressive or violent behaviors, including domestic violence. Although not everyone with A SPD exhibits violent tendencies. And then it also talks about individuals with borderline personality disorder may, and this is just some people may experience intense and unstable relationships, which may include conflicts and aggression, although they found the majority of individuals with BPD do not engage in violent behavior. So that's important to remember and hear everyone. The majority of individuals with BBPD do not engage in violent behavior. They also looked at studies that explored links between other personality disorders such as narcissistic or paranoid personalities and domestic violence. And looking at a meta-analysis of all these studies, the findings were varied and not all individuals with those disorders exhibited violent tendencies. There were other factors like substance abuse, childhood trauma, other mental co-occurring issues, mental health issues can contribute to an increased risk of engaging in domestic violence. Thoughts on that bill? I mean, you're the guy that studies personality disorders and all these different combinations.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
So it's really tricky because we talk about personality disorders more openly than most people do. And it's because it's so important. After 40 years, actually 43 years ago, I learned about personality disorders and training to be a therapist, child and family therapist. And the thing about personality disorders is they're generally unconscious that people are doing things without knowing why or what they're doing and that they lack self-awareness and they lack change. And that's why it's important to realize warning signs early on. But the research used to say that there's no mental disorder associated with domestic violence, and it's taken a long time. But I think it's people have really starting to come around and say domestic violence is often related to personality disorders because of the aggressive behavior, the lack of change, the misperception of what people are saying and doing. And so this big study that you've been referring to, Megan, and let me just mention, if people want studies, the place to go for studies, this kind of social psychology legal stuff, there's a website called pubmed.gov, P-U-B-M-E d.gov,
Speaker 1 (22:55):
And we'll put that in the links. Show links, yeah,
Speaker 2 (22:57):
It's public medicine. It's the National Institutes of Health database of articles over 3 million articles that they have. But this article that came out in 2021 talks, it's a meta-analysis personality disorders as predictors of intimate partner violence, and they found that there's a higher incidence with antisocial personality disorder and borderline personality disorder. So we're not just making this up or picking on personality disorders, but that not everybody, as Megan's saying, has domestic violence as a behavior that goes with this. They also said there's a higher incidence in perpetrators of this, but victims also have to a lesser degree, a higher incidence of borderline and dependent personalities. And that makes sense because part of the personality is a distorted perception of relationships and a tolerance for aggressive behavior that the average person doesn't have. I think if people find out or wonder if they have a borderline personality disorder, it's helpful to understand if you do talk to a therapist, et cetera, because you're at higher risk of being taken advantage of by a more aggressive person.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
But let's talk about the aggressive personalities. So this study focused on, they looked at all 10 personality disorders and found that antisocial personality disorder and borderline personality disorders stood out as they're more present in intimate partner violence. The reasons why may be a little different for each of those two personalities. But keep in mind that borderline, some people have said borderline personality organization is probably the personality disorder that's most prevalent in the coercive controlling violence. And so this is where they really want to control the other person. And a lot is because fear of loss of attachment, they have what they call micro rejections, micro disruptions of their attachment. They don't feel secure, and they may have grown up in an insecure environment. And so they want to clinging to their partner. That's characteristics. They misinterpret some things because they're fearful of this attachment issue.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
They have more aggressive, less impulse control. But also they said that if they partner tolerates this, you start having a dance where each partner is part of the dance, but we don't want to blame a victim for being abused. But if someone is a victim, what this research is saying is you may have expectations that tolerate this more than average, and you want to work on those so you don't have that tolerance of abusive behavior. But anyway, borderline and antisocial the most aggressive behaviors patterns. But there is some talk about narcissistic personalities because they're self-absorbed, also paranoid personalities because they misinterpret things to be worse than they are in terms of personality patterns. Yes, there is some concern and some predictability as this says, I want to quote this, so you don't say that I said this, but it says it's clear that disordered personality plays a significant role in IPV and perpetration and victimization. However, what little work has been done to systematically review the state of this focus primarily on antisocial and BPD as risk factors? So the focus has been those two personalities and perpetrators, A, SPD and B, P, D as victims, BP, d, but also dependent personality. So if you recognize yourself in any of this, go to a counselor. You don't want to hurt anybody, but you also don't want to tolerate being hurt yourself.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Absolutely. Okay, thanks Bill. So I think this is a good time to take a short break and when we come back, we're going to talk about how to identify if you are in a situation like this, and also talk about coercive controlling violence, what that is, what it looks like, and maybe some things we can do to spot it early. So we'll be back. Let's talk for switch gears here. A bit about two years ago you led a group, a project to interview 16 domestic violence experts on domestic violence in family law. We recorded that and it's available on our website. We'll put the link in the show notes. But I'm wondering, what were your impressions? What did you learn from that that you didn't know before? Were there any surprises?
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Well, first let me mention that we recorded this. It's six one hour videos, and so there are videos so you can see people were interviewing and their enthusiasm for educating people around this. One of the first things that impressed me was the need for professionals to ask questions of their clients. Now, I primarily see my career as a mediation career, although I've been a therapist and a lawyer and been in court and all of that. But I thought before mediation, you need to ask a lot of questions, see if it's safe. And so screening for domestic violence before mediation always known that was a concern. And of course this taught some more things about that. But it also taught that lawyers should be asking their clients about domestic violence that therapists should be asking their clients about domestic violence. And so because people don't talk about domestic violence spontaneously, they're embarrassed, they're uncomfortable, they're confused, and so they need people to ask them questions.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Also, the questions vary. So one of the questions that stands out is say you've been slapped, hit, knocked down, controlled, prevented from leaving the house, things like that. Strangulation somehow has come out as a hugely important issue because strangulation increases by 10 times the likelihood of eventual spousal murder. And the reason why is you don't have to get a weapon. You just suddenly grab somebody, choke their air supply, and within less than five minutes, somebody can be dead. So if you have an impulse control problem, you're someone that could be quite dangerous and needs to manage that. But moving to the other side of things is treatment. I was encouraged to hear that probably 70%. And the study is done with men, and this is included in the videos, person who runs treatment groups for men, and now there's starting to be more groups for women, but the research mostly on men is after a 52 week group therapy group treatment that about 70% of men have improved their impulse control around violence have also improved their empathy.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
That you can teach people empathy. And a lot of how they teach empathy in those groups is to think about their children. Do you want your son or daughter to go through this? Do you want them to be a perpetrator of abuse or a victim survivor of abuse? And that often helps them build empathy for their spouse or their partner is, oh wow, I can see it now through your eyes a little bit better. So that was real important. Another thing that I found, and this gets into the mediation side of it, is talking about whether someone's afraid. If nobody knows where they are, then you probably could just do mediation on Zoom or something. But the idea that there's what they call absent presence, and this really stood out to me that the person's threatening abilities don't have to be in the room, that the victim carries their presence with them and knows if I say this, if I do that, I'm going to get punished sooner or later. So depending on the situation, for example, mediation may not be appropriate with somebody like that who's vulnerable to getting punished after the mediation, regardless of what they say during the mediation and where they are during the mediation, they can be found and punished. So those are some of the things that I found new information.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Thanks, bill. So let's shift now into, if you're listening to this, and we always thank you listeners for listening to us, what do you do if in a nutshell, how do you know if you're in a domestic violence relationship?
Speaker 2 (33:16):
You may not realize it. If you don't know what's to expect, what's reasonable. It's getting other people's input being around other people. Sometimes when you're in a group with a new partner, other people in the group take you aside and say, Hey, he's treating you terrible. You hear how he's talking about you, or he is grabbing you by the arm, or he is shoving food in your mouth. That's not healthy, that's not appropriate. That's not normal. Do you realize that, especially when we talk about younger people, they often don't know what's realistic, but those are things to know. I think talking with a therapist, talking openly, this is what's happening to me, is this normal? If you are having these kind of warning signs that people that did our dating radar survey that they did see warning signs, but they overrode the warning signs because they thought my love will solve all of this, or time heals all wounds or things like that.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
If I just do more, if I just do more, I can really help my partner. I can make this work. They need a lot of help and I'm the one to help them.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
I'll be the hero and they'll thank me for it maybe.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Right? And sadly, that doesn't always work out.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Let me just add about if something's happening is also the domestic violence hotline has checklists of things to look out for things that aren't normal. Let me just mention the hotline numbers 807 9 9 7 2 3 3.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, and we'll have those links in our show notes too. And I wanted to ask you specifically Bill, about coercive controlling violence. And I think this is newer terminology to some, and so let's talk about what is coercive control?
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Coercive control is getting more attention because someone may be in a relationship that doesn't have violence happening. Maybe it's once a year, they get beat up. But coercive control can be very subtle, but cutting you off from friends and relatives saying, I'm the only person you need. Why do you need see your sister this weekend? You should be with me. You don't need anyone else. I can fill all your needs controlling the money. I'm smarter than you are about money, so I'm going to keep control of all the money, or it's my money because I'm earning it and you're just home with the kids or those kinds of things. In most states, that's not just your money. If you're in a marriage in community property states, that's 10 states, including California, et cetera, that's half your money because what you each earn during the marriage is community property. So money can be a thing. Healthcare needs don't go to a doctor. It's just a little bruise. I don't want them thinking anything
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Sexual violence, making someone feel like they're just always walking on eggshells in front of other people. They have to put on a show so that you don't see what's going on behind the scenes. But there could be these covert looks when you're out to dinner with another couple or friends or something, and that is controlling.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yes. And often your every move eventually becomes controlled. I don't know if I want to mention it yet, but I have a book coming out in June, our New World of Adult Bullies. And one example in there is a domestic violence victim who's a famous person musician. And she's saying, how I was told I can't look men in the eye except for my partner. I was told I have to look down all these things. And this is like a successful person. Slowly kind of lost her self-esteem, unfortunately broke out of that. So it can take a variety of forms without having to be violent. At the moment you learn to control yourself and you also become depressed. You lose energy, your self-esteem goes down. And so all of that's part of coercive control, but now it's getting into the laws. So for example, in California, coercive control could be the basis for restraining order even if there isn't violence.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
There's an example of a man who made his wife weigh herself four times a day, and he would look to see if she had gained weight, and he was so controlling around food. And when they separated, I don't know exactly what was happening, but she needed a restraining order. He was going to just keep after her about all this, and she got a restraining order based on his control of her food, which I mean, food is life, so you've got to have some freedom there. So these are just a few examples of coercive control, but it's getting more attention. And domestic violence with coercive control. The research says continues or increases. It doesn't just fade away. So if someone stays in a relationship that has physical violence and coercive control, it's going to continue or get worse. And that's important to know.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Okay, well, we've gone longer than we typically do, and this is a topic that there's so much that we could go into and we'll be talking more in the next episode about teen relationship violence and some really great resources for teenagers. But yeah, it's a tough topic and it happens everywhere around the world. You just have to be aware of what you're doing and take a look at your own life and see what you want for your life there. Everyone's worth not being abused, right? Every single person.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
We hope you've learned maybe some new tips or had a way to look at things a little bit differently through this episode. So thanks for listening. Next week, we will continue this conversation, as I said, shifting into teen violence. In the meantime, send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. And we'd love it if you tell your friends and colleagues about us, and we'd be very grateful if you'd leave us a review wherever you listen to our podcast. Until next time, keep learning and practicing the skills. Be kind to yourself while we all try to keep the conflict small. It's all Your Fault is the production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.