Holy Emotional

What if your emotions aren't obstacles to spiritual growth, but invitations into deeper discipleship? In this episode of the Ordinary Discipleship Podcast, Jacob, Jessie Cruickshank, and Julia Schmaltz explore why emotions are a good part of God's design, how they can give us important information about what is happening within us, and why we need to feel in order to heal. Together, they discuss how anxiety, grief, anger, fear, and other emotions can become invitations to curiosity, prayer, healing, and a deeper encounter with God. Rather than suppressing or elevating our emotions, what might it look like to receive them, listen to what they are telling us, and allow the Holy Spirit to bring the fuller story?

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Creators and Guests

Host

Jessie Cruickshank

Author of Ordinary Discipleship, Speaker, Neuro-ecclesiologist, belligerently optimistic, recklessly obedient, patiently relentless, catalyzing change

What is Ordinary Discipleship Podcast?

The Ordinary Discipleship podcast with Jesse Cruickshank and the Whoology team is a journey through the fascinating intersection of neuroscience and narrative to ignite the disciplemaker in you.  Delve into the transformative power of storytelling, exploring how our brains are wired for transformation and discover the extraordinary in the ordinary. From understanding the biological roots of storytelling to unlocking the secrets of spiritual maturity, each episode offers insights to empower you to become a more effective disciplemaker and deepen your spiritual growth.

Jacob: We're so glad you've
joined us here on the Ordinary

Discipleship Podcast. I'm Jacob,
and I'm here with Jesse

Crookshank and Julia Schmaltz.
Lately on the podcast, we've

been diving into topics that are
inspired by Jesse and Julia's

book, "Becoming Good News:
Reimagining Discipleship Through

Identity, Story, and Science.
And, ladies, a few times on the

podcast, we've delved into this
like, hey, emotions aren't bad,

emotions aren't bad kind of
mantra, and we wanted to spend

some time on today's episode
unpacking that a little bit

more. As we were talking about
this off air, I was sharing with

you all that for me, I kind of
came to know what emotions are

when I was in college, and I
ended up in a season of

depression, and sought help
through therapy. What I learned

in that season of my life was
that God could speak through my

emotions. I was a believer. I,
I, I always confess Jesus as my

savior, but I wasn't in the best
spiritual or emotional place. I

wasn't healthy, and what I
learned through that process was

when I was able to tune into my
emotions, I could find that God

was speaking to me through my
anxiety, or through my worry, or

even through my shame. I could
find God's voice in the middle

of it. Actually, that whole
story resolved when I went to a

series of counselors. Ended up
one semester, I had a literature

professor who functioned as my
de facto counselor. Now she

works as a therapist, not as a
literature professor anymore.

And she was the one who told me
I should do international

missions. And she said, you
know, so much of your faith is

in your head, you need to
experience it in your body, and

that was really when the dots
started to connect for me. And

the way that I tell that story
is like God found me in the

office of my-I'm pretty
confident non-Christian

literature professor. And it was
through that journey of trying

to unpack this depression and
the emotions that came with it

that I actually tuned into the
voice of God more closely. So

that's my story of discovering
how God works through emotions.

But let's talk about what it
means for people who are looking

to grow in their faith. They're
anchoring in narrative, and so

much of church is just minimize
yourself. Don't listen. Like

emotions are fickle. Don't
listen to that. What's the way

that we want to reframe that for
people so that so that they can

have a redemptive experience?

Jessie Cruickshank: I was just
going to start at the beginning,

which is infants, and that
you're born with emotion. You

were born with with six core
emotions, and God says it's

good. Right? Those emotions
aren't sinful. You're born with

joy and anger and sadness and
fear and embarrassment, and so

you're you're born with these
emotions, and they are your

first language. They are your
first way of communicating with

the world. So if you've ever
been with an infant, the infant

cries. Like, have you ever held
an angry baby? Like, like angry

babies kind of make me laugh
because, I mean, it's probably

not funny for them because
they're angry, but they like

squish their face up and they
get really red and they're just

like, oh my gosh, I'm so mad
right now, and they're not self

conscious about it, right? They
don't have this system that's

like, oh, don't be angry, anger
is bad. Like they're just angry

until you help solve their
problem, or they kind of you

know they move through it. So,
so foundationally, as a creation

made by a loving God who gave us
emotions. Emotions are good.

They're part of our our nature,
and they're part of our nature

because God also actually has
emotions. God is not an

algorithm. God is not a entity,
personality, or personality less

entity. God has a personality.
God has emotions, and He gave us

those emotions. He has put those
into creation. So if you think

that emotions are bad, then you
have to think that God is bad,

and and so and so an error in
like thinking that that emotions

are sinful or emotions lead us
into sin just because they

exist, like like then you have
to like you have to deal with

your perception of God. So so
the first the first places to

start is that we are created as
emotional beings, we are an

entirely in in our entire
physiology. We are emotion

first, and cognition language
second. So we are be we don't.

It's not I think therefore I am.
It's I feel therefore I am. And

so when we start to lean into
this narrative that takes us

away from our emotions, that
squashes our emotions, that

devalues our emotions, not
putting them in the right place

as information, but like like
just shuts them down, we're

we're judging God that He made
us wrong. We're judging

ourselves and shaming ourselves,
and we actually become dis.

Connected from our body, from
our soul, and and actually from

our spirit. So part of the
reason we might struggle to hear

God is because we're stuffing
and shoving down our emotions,

and we can't even hear
ourselves. So just want to I

just want to lay the foundation
that emotions are there and they

are good.

Julia Schmaltz: I love that you
started with a story today,

Jacob, and specifically your
story of, and isn't it

interesting that some of the
most significant change that you

experienced was in a
quote-unquote secular

environment from a literature
professor? And what I'm

immediately thinking is that's
you're in a story environment,

and you're hearing different
stories, and there is so much

emotion, and that's why when we
tap into what we call narrative

or autobiographical memory,
that's what's so significant

about the autobiographical
memory that is formed. That

Jesse's talking about emotion
first and and cognition second,

is that we are formed in story,
and so when we hear stories,

when I hear you say that story,
I'm immediately thinking of a

time where I'm stuck in my head.
I'm immediately thinking of a

time where I felt depressed, and
I needed somebody else to help

me get out of my own head so
that I could go experience

something new. And it tooks you
know the right people that God

brought alongside me, and it
also took the right

circumstance. And your professor
was brilliant because you had to

go experience something so that
you couldn't really, so that you

could live a understanding of a
new story, so that you could

have a greater sense of of your
life having meaning and and

everything, and that's where
story is so incredibly impactful

for us, because when we when we
hear a story, think about if you

go to a movie, you can't your
words are limiting to try to

even explain everything that's
happening in your hearts, and

you know this because you can
even watch a commercial and you

can start crying, and you're
like, why am I crying? I don't

even know. I'm just crying. I
because we feel it, we feel it

deep in our soul, and we know
that something significant is

happening. There's a knowing
that is deeper to us that is

limited by our words, and so
when we think that we have to

have everything in our
cognition, or we have to have

all the thoughts, or we have to
be able to speak it out loud,

we're literally limited by that
ability to by that ability. So

why the reason emotions are so
important? And if you've ever

watched the movie Inside Out by
Pixar, it's really really great,

and it's based upon this idea of
the emotions, and it and it

shows you how they're formed.
And we're formed of this

original emotion of joy, and you
know, one of the first things

that babies do is they smile,
mirroring back what's been done.

You know, their parents smile at
them, they mirror back, they

smile at them, and then, as
Jesse said, you know, how do

they say that you know that the
injustice of not having their

diaper changed or being fed?
They get angry about it and they

start to cry, and you know, and
when we and we as they're

growing up, you know, when they
put gum in their mouth, and

we're like, and they've taken it
from the bottom of their shoe,

and we're like, ew, you know,
they look at us and they see the

disgust on our face that you
don't want to be eating things

off the ground and you don't
want to be eating things off the

bottom of your shoe, and so all
of these things God built into

us to form us, and we look at
that at the biology, and we go,

okay, we feel before we can
heal. We we feel, and then we we

think. That's the same way in
our discipleship. We feel

things, the anxiety of our
souls. Like, what if we reframed

these things that we've created
as so negative in our

discipleship, like anxiety? I
have the anguish of my soul and

anxiety. And what if we reframed
them? I mean, what does

Scripture say? Don't worry about
anything; pray about everything.

So, what if anxiety was God's
invitation every single time to

pray? The reason that we don't
feel that that we are are not

using that more as a
discipleship tool is we feel

like there's something wrong
with us. We feel like anxiety is

a sign that we are disconnected
from God, and there's a problem

with us.

But if we allowed God to reframe
our thinking, and anxiety was

saying, "Okay, there's something
going on in my heart. I'm

feeling something that's not
consistent with what God has for

me in my soul right now, and
that's an invitation then to be

redeemed, and so that's part of
what we what we're trying to do

in the book is we're hoping to
reframe these emotions. You

know, I was pretty emotional kid
growing up. I would cry without

realizing it. You know, and that
made me feel like it was wrong

to be a woman. It was definitely
wrong to cry that I was too

emotional, and so I kind of
began this narrative in my head

that I shouldn't feel this way.
I shouldn't feel this way.

There's something wrong with me
because I have these emotions,

and that's really how God has
has reshifted my story, in that

I don't elevate my emotions, but
I also don't, I don't suppress

my emotions. I name my emotions,
and the last episode we talked

about the power of naming, and
so it is so important. Find

yourself an emotion wheel,
Google it. We'll try to put a

link in the notes from this
podcast episode, but name your

emotions and recognize that they
are, you know, the the six core

that that Jesse, you know,
mentioned, you know, is that we

have fear, we have anger,
disgust, surprise, grief,

sadness. Like if we are sad,
we're supposed to be sad. That's

why God gave us the psalm so we
can lament it. But we're not

supposed to remain in there, and
that's where we get so hung up

in our discipleship. Is there
are things that God gave us in

our childhood to create coping
mechanisms so that we can deal

with them as kids. But as we
become adults, we're not

supposed to just deal with stuff
and stuff it down. God's saying,

"I have more for you, and I am
going to give you the tools now

in your life to through
forgiveness, repentance,

confession, to be able to
process those emotions in a

healthy way, so that you can be
restored.

Jacob: Again, our listeners
might be having one of two

experiences: either they're
saying like, "Oh my gosh, this

is so helpful, or they're
saying, "I don't know why you're

talking about this. Emotions
have never been a problem for

me, because I think about like
my experience in church. Well,

the reason I said my experience
in church is my experience of

faith never said explicitly
don't listen to your emotions,

but I have had friends in church
who, like in Bible study group,

somebody's encouragement to them
was, "Well, don't listen to your

emotions; they lead you astray.
And I think that, like, so even

if you haven't heard it
explicitly, the the reason a

person would say something like
that, don't listen to your

emotions; they lead you astray,
is because there's a belief that

faith is a set of axiomatic
intellectual agreements that I

make, and so it's really just if
I can just continue to say like,

God loves me, God loves me, God
loves me, God loves me, and

ignore the fact that I feel
completely abandoned by God in

the moment. Then I'll be okay as
long as I say it, because it's a

cognitive agreement. And what
we're saying here, I think, is

well, yeah, we've talked about
in another episode. There's no

multiple choice test at the
pearly gates to make sure you

get into heaven. It's not about
remembering the facts. It's

about it's about living out the
truth of God's story in my life.

Now we would say it doesn't
matter what you say. What are

you experiencing? And and that's
where I think it comes back to

what like what we're saying
here, which is like the

emotions, which to Jesse's
point, biologically are as much

a part of us as our finger, like
it's just a part of our created

being. If our emotions are
giving us witness to some

experience, that's information
we can process to discern and

develop what it means to be
people living after Jesus. If

this is a struggle for someone
who's listening, it's like yeah,

find somebody who can help you
learn how to name emotions.

Maybe there's a journaling
exercise. How else does this

play out in someone's life as
they're being developed and

discipled into who God is
calling them to be?

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, I
think just like it doesn't do

any good to ignore the emotions
of a baby. Like if you ignore

the baby, it is not going to
change their diaper. It is not

going to solve their hunger.
It's not going to fix the

temperature issue that that they
may be experiencing. So just

like it doesn't do any good to
ignore the emotions that are

being expressed by an infant, it
doesn't do any good to ignore

the emotions that are being
expressed by your soul. And so

the first thing that we need to
do is let our soul speak and

understand that God gave us our
emotions, which come out of

something that our soul is
experiencing. It's an

expression. It's an information
that is rising to the level of

consciousness. Because like
you're 98% operating at a non

conscious level, 98% of your
being is nonconscious, and so

emotions are the result of
something that your body is

experiencing. Your soul; those
are the same thing are

experiencing, and then and then
it it creates some information

that then rises to the level of
your awareness. So you are being

told something by your body and
your soul, and you need to stop

and you need to be curious about
that. Now, it's likely that

that's not all of the
information. It's not a complete

picture because you know what
the truth is. You will never

know the complete picture.
Whether you see it, whether you

think it, whether you think that
you're the most rational,

objective person, it's not true.
No one is right. It's always a

sliver of information, and so
your soul, through your

emotions, is telling you a
sliver of information. So the

first step is to be curious.
What are what is happening

inside of me? What is my body
and my soul telling me? And and

becoming aware, because just
like the baby won't stop

screaming until you change it.
Diaper, your soul won't stop

screaming, no matter how much
you tell it to sit in the corner

and shut up. And so, like Juliet
was a very emotional child, I

was a very non-emotional child.
I stuffed all of those emotions

because I grew up in a very
traumatic. I had a very

traumatic childhood. I'm seven
out of 10 on the ACE scale in

adverse child experiences, and
so I learned the coping

mechanism of shoving everything
in the corner, telling it to

shut up. Grit, gur, grit through
made me a really great

mountaineer, but it made me a
really bad leader and not the

best wife. And so I had to learn
to like stop and be curious and

let my emotions speak to me,
validate them, which which just

means receive them. Say, okay,
I'm listening because they're

not going to go away. They're
just going to hide back in and

like get all poisonous and
gross, and then manage you non

consciously. So yeah, listen,
receive what they have to say,

and then my practice is I
present that to the Lord and

say, okay, what else do you want
me to know? Help me understand

what's happening here. What do
you want me to? What do you want

to tell me about the situation?
And let the Holy Spirit be my

parent to my screaming toddler
soul, and let the Holy Spirit

bring the rest of that context
or understanding. So I receive

them as partial information, but
necessary, absolutely necessary

information.

Julia Schmaltz: The axioms serve
us a purpose for a period of

time, but there comes a point at
which they no longer they no

longer serve their purpose, and
how that shows up is when you

scream and yell at your kids for
something that is not it's not

an appropriate response to what
you know, and so I think that's

what's important. If this is a
non-issue for you, praise God.

Like we're not, we're not
saying, we're not saying. Start

diving deep into that. What
we're saying, though, is that if

you're finding that you're
stuck, if you're finding that

that you just keep heading up
against a wall, if if you're

finding that the way that you're
responding to situations does

not feel like it's the way that
it should be is appropriate.

Then you need to pay attention,
and that those are mechanisms

God has given you to be able to
respond appropriately, and those

are invitations because He loves
you to be discipled, to be His

follower, to be able to have a
new story to tell to be able to

bear witness to something he
wants to do in our life, and so

what keeps us from stepping into
that is we're afraid. We're

afraid we're going to be
condemned by him. We're afraid

that we're going to be that
we're going to have others that

are going to look at us,
especially if we're in

leadership. That that how can I
as a leader show that type of

vulnerability? And instead, we
need to be saying, "Okay, God,

you're inviting me into this.
I'm going to trust you, and that

says something about your
leadership too. Like you can't,

if you've got to be the one that
perfect, you know, has to always

be perfect or perform. You've
got a very shaky foundation, and

you're not going to be making it
in the long haul. And so, God is

inviting you to invite others
into that into that conversation

as well.

Jessie Cruickshank: Jules, did
you almost say earlier that you

have to feel in order to heal?

Julia Schmaltz: Yes, that's my
friend Donna says that all the

time. Yeah, you have to feel in
order to heal.

Jessie Cruickshank: I love that.
I love that.

Julia Schmaltz: Yeah, and and
when and we do this all the time

when we're praying with people
because we-that's what we we do

at Ijene Exchange-is we pray
with people, and you have to let

people sit in their pain. We
can't rescue. We're not meant to

be anybody's savior, and so you
have to let people feel what

they felt, and when they do,
Jesus can meet them in that

moment, and that's what he does.
He does over and over again

reinterpret that story for them.

Jacob: Great, yeah. So if you're
listening to us and you're

finding that there are places
where you're stuck, or your

formation journey feels stalled
out or sidetracked, I like where

we landed there. It's can you
sit with that and allow the Lord

to speak into that brokenness,
so that healing can come. That

would be that would be kind of a
next step in piecing together

identity narrative as we explore
formation. This is the Ordinary

Discipleship Podcast. If you
want to go deeper on any of

these topics, make sure you look
out for Jesse and Julia's book,

Becoming Good News: Reimagining
Discipleship Through Identity.

story, and science. We'll
continue to dive into these

topics here on the podcast. So
grab the book or continue to

join us as we continue the
conversation. We'll see you next

time.