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SPEAKER_02: My first question
for you is I really want to
know.
I know you well.
My audience may not know you,
which is what is the crisis that
led you to the work that you're
doing now?
SPEAKER_03: What is the crisis?
You mean the series of crises?
SPEAKER_01: It's already
carrying.
We're all about telling stories
here, so give us the whole
story.
SPEAKER_03: You know, the crisis
was the never-ending.
You know, do you remember the
story, the never-ending story
that was a kid's show?
Yes, yes, yes.
Well, it turns out that I had
this thing in childhood, knowing
I came from a dysfunctional
family, and I said at seven, I
am never going to get a divorce.
Ever.
I will not be like my mom.
I will not be like my f my
uncles.
I will go to go and I will pass,
I get my 200.
Unfortunately, somewhere along
the line, I got a, you know, my
first wife asked for a divorce,
and I got in, I go, I got into
jail, so to speak, without the
you know, without the get out of
jail fast.
It was called divorce.
And so I do a whole bunch more
work.
I'd gone to college, get in a
psych degree, so that I wouldn't
have this.
And I'd gotten in the second
degree in marriage and family.
And so it was a shock in my
life.
I thought I'd done all the work.
So I do another 10 years of
work, and lo and behold, we go
to go, and there's no$200.
There's another, there's another
divorce called my second
divorce.
And the worst of it was having
done the work, I was not showing
up creating distance.
But some part of my my brain
found a partner who would
provide the distance for me.
So it doesn't matter where it's
coming from, the distance will
eventually eat a marriage alive.
And after a few more repeating
patterns, dancing with distance,
so to speak, not quite dancing
with the stars, mind you, some
part of me said, this has to
change.
And if I've done all this much
work, if I can't find the, you
know, the ways of changing this,
because no one should work this
hard and get the same results.
And that was sort of the crisis
that said, I'm not going out of
life without the love of my
life.
I've worked hard for it.
It's my incarnational purpose,
and it set me up to do the work
I'm doing.
Because nobody should work that
hard and still do the same
things over and over again, or
pick the same things, or the
same patterns keep showing up.
That was the crisis.
It was a long-going crisis that
hit me one day while shaving.
This must stop.
SPEAKER_02: So, what did you do
to make the transition so it
would stop?
SPEAKER_03: Well, there was, you
know, it was after one very
painful breakup.
And in this one, it was after
the second divorce.
I think I had gotten a little
flighty with love, and I'm and
it was with a woman that was
pretty secure.
And so in the universe started
speaking to me through a voice
that came from the ex uh at the
on the night she broke up.
She goes, You're too good of a
man to show up like this.
Why don't you go study some NLP
or something and get your shiz
together?
SPEAKER_02: Really?
I okay, that's a story I've
never heard.
That was the catalyst right
there, what she said to you.
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
The universe has a way of
speaking, and sometimes it
speaks through the female of the
species.
A lot of men have heard this,
you know.
And in the next couple of
months, I I really took that to
heart.
There was that, you know, and I
realized there's no way I can
keep saying it's on them.
And and I have done the work,
and it's you know, and all this
many years of therapy, you know,
all the grease of the whole
thing.
And I said, something is off
here.
If they can't figure it out,
then I will.
And that became my last purpose.
Well, what really helps the
brain create different
experience?
Because I, Gary, wanted
something different, but some
part of my brain was sneakily
going behind my back to create
the same situation.
You know?
SPEAKER_01: I think you just
described probably everybody
who's gonna be listening to this
podcast.
SPEAKER_02: That that that was
the story.
That was the story where
everybody's gonna go, I've done
everything that I know how to
do.
I keep showing up the same way,
or life keeps showing up the
same way, or I keep tracking the
same people.
So, how do you help those people
that are listening that are in
the story that you got out of?
SPEAKER_03: It's you know, first
off, we don't make any part of
that wrong.
We don't.
Some part of the brain is
creating this.
It's not the conscious part, I
mean it's the unconscious part,
you know, it's whatever caught
your attachment brain.
And it is doing it out of deep
loyalty and safety.
Back then.
Distance at one point in time
with a with a uh mentally ill
mother was my salvation.
I may not even be speaking here.
A brain that's not distance from
a volatile, violent mother is
taking the best deal available,
as I say.
So we don't make it wrong, we
don't judge it, we don't create
a parts conflict inside of
ourselves, we don't have that
inner critic saying, Why are you
doing this again?
But it's about doing the deeper
work, and it's not enough to
have a label, a label in five
bucks that Starbucks just might
get you a cup of coffee, you
know.
And I had labels, right?
I I had cognitive skills.
The real deep work that wasn't
available, you know, maybe when
I was doing some of that,
traditional therapy was all into
cognitive behavior therapy,
cognitive, not the deep emotions
that are running the ship.
And the real answer is deep in
your brain, you've gotten
feelings, and these feelings are
your motivational states, and
your brain organizes around the
feelings you got, and they're
protection, and there's filters,
and there's all sorts of ways,
and they and it sets it up that
you expect more, so you got to
protect against it, or I need
this to survive.
But all that was then, and this
is now.
You've got to be able to update
it, but how do you update it?
More thoughts, nice, but won't
do it.
Better feelings, there's your
answer.
You have to get your brain to
have better feelings running.
And I happen to, when I did my
own analysis of this, as I said
in my book, there's four
feelings that tell everyone who
is what's called securely
attached.
People that know how to find and
create and keep real love.
That's called secure.
Otherwise, the other options
that most people know about are
anxiously attached.
One does love to go away.
Oh my god, how do I lock this
down?
And so you drive people away
because you don't give them any
freedom or you're always
doubting them.
And then there's another, the
avoidance that seek distance or
calm things down to the place
where there's everything is
centering, there's no passion or
there's not much emotional
access.
In the middle are people who
have been given a feeling of
welcomed with joy.
So they search for welcomed with
joy, not rejected, not always
triumphant.
They're worthy.
They feel worthy at a cellular
level.
When they feel worthy, they they
find people who know how to meet
their needs instead of people
they have to overgive to or they
have to beg or they get great
breakfast from.
Cherished.
He's you know, having the
feeling I'm cherishable and
protectable.
So I can be a me in a we.
The we doesn't stifle.
It's not a bad thing to be close
and intimate.
That close, intimate we is going
to empower me to be my best
self.
That's cherished and protected,
and then empowered with choice
and voice.
We are empowered to create our
own experience, not be stifled,
you know, not to be become
invisible, not to give ourselves
up.
And we get to have a voice where
we speak our truth in a secure
way.
The real key to changing how
your brain creates love, creates
relationships, is to take any
feelings of unworthy, unwelcome,
uncherished, or abused, or
whatever you want to call it, or
disempowered, and to re- and to
find how, you know, the exact
flavor of safety, your brain
needs to reclaim them again.
Welcomed, worthy, cherished,
empowered.
Because my new concept I've come
up with is your original secure
self.
Everything, once you start
getting these other feelings,
unwelcomed, unworthy,
uncherished, and disempowered,
they we usually get them
earlier, maybe an older
relationship.
They become the emotional
template for what you're allowed
in the future.
They become the the little
cookie cutter for creating new
experiences.
And we just have to go back and
create better cookie cutters so
that we in that way we choose
people who will give us those
feelings.
And also just as importantly, we
know how to give it.
We know how to make people feel
the person we love feel
welcomed, worthy.
When you do that, people
naturally choose better, create
better, and repair better.
It's based on the emotional
feelings inside.
So having more more labels or
more cognitive skills, it
doesn't do you any good to study
Rosenberg's nonviolent
communication if you feel
disempowered and you don't have
a right to assert.
You can get, you know, the brand
one was how do we know Rosenberg
is safe?
We don't want to do that.
SPEAKER_02: It's like what kind
of wishery is this?
Are you talking about healing
the past?
Are you talking about changing
the past, Gary?
SPEAKER_03: No, no.
You know, I I you know, you have
to understand that when your
memories are encoded, they are
also given feelings.
There's an emotional soundtrack,
right?
I have this one little idea.
Just imagine the ending scene to
Sleepless in Seattle with Tom
Hanks and Meg Ryan.
Remember, they meet uh up on the
roof, right?
And now imagine, you know, I
think at the time there's you
know, you imagine if you're
meeting up there and they're
meeting for the first time, and
from an old past music tape of
Jaws is playing.
Well, that that that memory, as
that's what it feels like.
Oh my god, this is what it's
like to meet somebody.
Now imagine we can take that
soundtrack and we can put in,
you know, Frank Sinatra, old
blue eyes singing doot do do do
someday.
When, you know, and all that
good stuff.
That soundtrack gives you a very
different feeling.
Now, when we talk about the
past, we're not here to say that
the events are going to be
erased or we're going to give
some sort of hogwash that it
didn't happen.
But what we know from the
science, the neuroscience, it's
called memory reconsolidation
research, is once your brain
remembers a memory and plays the
soundtrack, there's literally a
five-hour window where the brain
is amenable.
It's open, it's labeled to
adding different feelings.
So one of them one of the things
I do is I help people go back,
find the painful memory that
created the pattern, but give it
a different feeling.
So it no longer creates a
feeling that is the real uh
emotion that's running the show.
I look back and there are
moments when I can still
remember being thrown against a
wall at age two or age 13 or 18.
There's a few of those moments
back there.
But I don't have to feel so
unsafe.
I can replace those feelings,
and so I can remember the
feelings, but not I mean, the
old feel I can remember them,
but I don't feel them anymore.
And I remember the memory, but I
don't have the feelings.
So as a result, for a kid that
was constantly feeling rejected,
I don't know if they're rejected
at all.
I have friends all over the
world, one of them sitting right
in front of me.
I am welcomable, you know, and
uh I am cherishable, which was,
you know, and so instead of
running those old feelings of
rejected and uh not protected,
so I need distance, I have the
same memories but with different
feelings.
And those different feelings
allow me to pick, choose better
because it's the feelings,
feelings are emotions, motivate
comes from the same Latin word.
They are motivating structures,
they tell us what's permissible
or not.
We change the emotional
structure.
And yes, if you're a man
listening to, I'm saying it's
emotional, then you change the
way the brain creates
relationships.
So we're not changing the past,
we're changing how the past
feels.
SPEAKER_02: So a few times
you've talked about yourself in
relationships and you say a
distance, distance.
What attachment style were you
running?
SPEAKER_03: I was running both
if you really want to get
technical about it.
The one I didn't mention is
disorganized.
You know, because five percent
or only five ninety-five percent
of the other three.
When there is extreme abuse
early on, a baby, a child is
seeking proximity.
And we know that if there's real
abuse and you've got a real need
to go toward, and a real need to
stay away.
And that does and for me, you
know, there was a part of me in
the way it showed up in later
relationships, some part would
sabotage seeking distance, and
then when I go breaking up, all
hell would break loose within
me.
I want her back.
If I got her back, then the
distant part, oh no, we got to
get that's disorganized.
That's disorganized.
Now it's more, I mean, I'm not
talking about situational
avoidance, but this is, you
know, whether, and luckily, I
was not the part of the dis 80%
of people with disorganized have
a cluster B personality
disorder.
Thank God some part of me, and I
think it was probably due to my
grandmother giving me some, and
because we stayed there for the
first five years of my life.
I think my grandmother gave me
just enough to keep me from
going down that road.
SPEAKER_02: So for our
listeners, describe what that
road is.
SPEAKER_03: Well, what that
looked like was well, if you
have cluster B personality, you
you wind up borderline
personality, a narcissistic
personality, and antisocial.
This now that Freud called it
borderline.
He called it borderline.
We're just on the border between
mental illness where you're
hospitalized and you can be
around.
If you're really looking, you
know, borderlines, like my
mother, have a you know, out of
nowhere their anger pulls up and
they and it's like walking on
eggshells.
Sometimes they do self-harm
things of that nature.
It's um, it's it's there's a
real more deeply seated, that's
not what I call middle normal
middle class craziness.
Okay, this is way over here.
Now, for me, I you know, I think
the fact that my my mother
rejected me so much, my
grandmother took over.
And so I have a lot of really
good memories of a grandmother
who would come over and say,
hey, let's make banana ice cream
together.
That that added, but when you
know, but on the other hand,
when you were you when you're
home with mom, there's you never
knew what was coming.
So when someone is doing better
than you would think they are
doing, like with all people,
then you know they got it
somewhere.
And I I think when I look back
at this, I think some part of my
soul chose this.
So I could have sat with both
sides, the anxious side, the
avoidance side, so then I and
now I'm secure.
So I know I knew what questions
to ask.
I could tell from reading
research, this is a this is
relevant, and that's a nice
piece of research.
Beautiful footing, not clean.
SPEAKER_02: When we talk about
psychology, basically they tell
us we can't change.
So, what part of you decided
that that wasn't true?
SPEAKER_03: Now that's
interesting because there up
until the the decade of the
brain in the 90s, that was the
dominant idea.
Even when I took personality
theory my senior year in
college, the professor showed us
both philosophically and
psychologically.
He had a double doctorate, one
in psychology and philosophy,
and he was a brilliant
professor.
You know what the final for this
course was?
He simply said So I'd given all
of you enough evidence to say
that a brain, a person can
change or they can't.
Give me an give me the final is
go home and take two months to
write about it, and every one of
you will be forced to take an
incomplete give it to me second
semester.
And when I sat down over
Christmas break, because I was a
kid student, and it was 50-50,
but some part of me said, I
can't live with the nihilism
that nobody can change, or other
my life is screwed.
I mean, I had this feeling in my
dorm room over Christmas because
I was staying and and working at
the library to get enough money
to back.
And I said, I can't live with
that.
And I'm glad I made that choice
because for a long period of
time, we thought by the time 18
people's identities are formed.
Now we know they're not.
They did not understand
neuroplasticity.
They did not understand the
five-hour window where when you
run through a neural network
enough energy that so you can
remember them the memory, that
surge of energy, that
electricity, loosens up the
protein structure so that the
memory is now labile enough that
you can work with it.
They didn't know that back then.
So thank God that some part of
my better self said, I'm not
going to live with this
nihilistic skinarian brunit, you
know, beyond freedom and
dignity, which is beyond, I
thought was beyond hope and
actually having a better life.
You know.
So we now know way more.
There's, you know, we know that
memories can be changed.
In fact, one of the prime people
in the whole wrote an article
and then 10 years later had to
write another one saying it
would appear that we were wrong.
That's absolutely the case.
Okay.
Uh, that's Damasio.
And he wrote something in the
early 90s that he took back 10
years later.
The good news is this is
science-based.
You can change your brain, can
have memories with different
feelings, so you're not carrying
the past like it's running then.
So that was what and changing
all those feelings, working with
the the the memories and all
this the protector parts for
both sides of the anxious and
avoidant thing, you get them all
to song down.
And then think about it is
you've got a you've got a whole
bunch of memories and neural
networks.
Everybody has tons of neural
networks that say, I like eating
this, you know, I like going
jogging, you know, this, you
know, all these things.
And they're like a cacophony,
uh, enough choir that's just
singing all sorts of different
things.
But if you work enough with
them, you get the prefrontal
cortex gets to be the conductor.
You get to be the one that
creates music out of whatever
you've been given.
And I'd like to think that all
those memories I had, you know,
just a few years ago, you know,
I've turned them into a be a
beautiful choir that I call the
safe to love again choir.
SPEAKER_02: I love that.
I I'm really curious.
You know, you mentioned
borderline personality,
narcissistic.
Are those people that their
brains can still change?
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
Now, I don't typically work with
that.
That gets more into clinical
work, and I try to stay away
from that.
There are there's some, you
know, dialectical behavior
therapy is found to be much more
effective, but borderline is
hard getting out of.
And with narcissistic, they're
coming up with some techniques.
But the last I checked, clinical
psychology has a success rate of
about 14% of narcissism.
There is both an inherited
biological and a learned.
Part of this one.
Okay.
So that gets into some other
things.
This is why I I tend to deal
with what I call normal middle
class craziness.
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
I love that.
SPEAKER_03: It's normal and
middle class craziness.
Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_02: Out of your story
and everything that we've been
talking about, is there a
miracle in this story?
SPEAKER_03: Is there a miracle
in this story?
Gosh, I'd think there's a bunch
of them.
I mean, you know, think about it
like this.
I can honestly say to you that
one my therapist in the back in
the late 80s when I started
doing this work told me that I
my mother was a borderline
borderline.
The miracle is that some part of
me was wise enough to reach out
to good people, and those good
people showed up in my life.
You know, I will always thank my
third grade teacher, who really
did quite a bit, Mrs.
Graham, to pull me out and a
lifelong friend, and the right
people showed up at the right
time.
You know, some of it is
diligence and just dogged
determination.
I often describe myself as the
terrier that gets on the ankle
and doesn't give it up.
Well, you know, but on the other
hand, I think the miracle is
that I mean, I've survived
million and one odds.
I to become this.
In fact, I can still remember,
you know, I was uh I've been a
really good father, and now I'm
a really good husband.
My I have a wife that knows she
is loved.
And strangely enough, I you
know, my best friend once said
to me, if somebody had from now
he goes back to third grade, so
he knows me.
Says, if someone had told me you
would become a brilliant PhD, I
would have said, Yep.
And but a brilliant father, I
would have said, Oh, come come
again.
I don't know.
You know how friends can just be
brilliant.
Yeah, friends can be honest, a
little honest, maybe a little
more than one what one one at a
year, you know.
But the fact of the matter is,
you know, I feel like my soul's
led me.
And there have been some you can
call it miraculous, you can call
it serendipitous, right?
You can see providential,
whatever, but the right
resources have shown up, and I
really believe that, you know,
when the student is ready, the
teacher appears.
I have become that now.
There was a time I needed that,
and now I have become that
myself for others.
So, yeah, you know, I think
there's a miracle.
I look back and I think, how did
that kid ever make those
decisions and find those people?
And there's and I do do believe
there was more going on to guide
me than just me.
And but I believe but that's the
see, I think, you know, I didn't
come from a family where there
was anything like a we.
In fact, you know, I you know,
the other thing that's true
about me is shoot, when my
mother died, sh I I I she was I
wasn't even on the obituary.
That's not and nobody in the
family environment.
Once I went to college, I
became, you know, for family
that didn't nobody went to
finish high school, I became
kind of high fluent from them.
And it wasn't me, it was them.
You know, and I used to think,
oh gosh, I got no no belonging
in life.
But you know what was also
important?
Once I discovered that I was
cherishable and protectable, I
had a right to separate.
That's it, just and belong.
It not only changed my
fundamental intimacy
relationships, you know, the
intimate partners, how I how I
lived with in within them, how I
chose.
But I began to realize I live on
a beautiful cosmic week that the
universe has my back.
Every time I've needed something
to show up, it has.
The universe has always been
with me, and so I I feel like
there's a ton of belonging.
I mean, I get it with a with a
biological family, but I get to
choose the people that I call
family, people like you, right?
You know, you know, and there is
truth to what Wayne Dyer said.
We had a he had a problem with
his father, you know, the way I
had with my mother, right?
And he he once said in a PBS
show, one of his in, you know,
there's long shows he used to do
on PBS, he says, he said that
friends are God's way of
apologizing for family.
So even if you come from a
family of wolves, and I think in
many respects that was the case,
you know, it didn't mean I
didn't have a right to belong.
In fact, I got the most
beautiful gift in the world.
I get to choose all these
beautiful, conscious people,
right?
Who are who give me far more
lift but underneath my wings.
And somewhere along the line, I
think there's been a whole
string of miracles like that,
you know, and I'm grateful every
day I wake up.
I mean, you know, you and I are
going to talk about podcasting
after this.
How how is it that you just
signed up, you know, signed up
and said I can talk to you about
that the week I'm thinking about
starting my own podcast?
You know, how does this
serendipity show up?
It shows up with a beautiful
smile.
SPEAKER_02: Gary, can you go
ahead and just describe to
people what is sitting behind
you on your wall?
unknown: Sure.
SPEAKER_03: Well, there's a load
of books.
You one might imagine I've read
a few things, you know.
There's an there's the book
called Safe to Love Again.
That's I put I blew it up about
four times, so you can get
there's the cover.
And when I work with couples,
there is a really beautiful
piece of artwork that I had a
ceramic artist make.
It's and it's a we-e we because
at the heart and soul of my
work, especially with couples,
is helping them feel safe and
know how to create a we.
Show me so when I work with
couples, the issue is somebody's
got a problem being in a we,
they don't know how to create a
we and singles, they don't know
how to choose someone that's
going to make a we with them, or
they can't choose it themselves.
Either way, relationships are
ultimately about a we.
So I put it in the back behind
me.
Now, I'll tell you, it's a
little bit on the sneaky side.
It is.
I had a husband show up one day,
and you can see it behind me
when you're if you're in a
session, and the guy says, Hey,
what's that piece of the artwork
back there?
It says, We.
I think you're getting
subliminal.
I think you're trying to
manipulate us.
I go, oh no, it's conscious
subliminal message.
I want that we to be back there
influencing you the whole time.
That's why I said, so there's I
said, Yeah, this is overt.
This is not covert.
SPEAKER_02: You know, at front
and center, Gary, at front and
center.
Uh, whenever I have you on the
live event, uh, you know, I
always tell you to mention your
book, and people will always
message me and say, I wrote read
his book, and it was so amazing
because it explains so much of
what they're experiencing or
what they were going through.
So, what is the name of the book
again and where can people get
it?
SPEAKER_03: Safe to love again.
How to uh how to uh release the
pain of past relationships and
create the love you deserve.
It's on Amazon.
That's awesome.
And you could also read my
newest essays on Substack.
SPEAKER_02: Gary is one of the
rare people I will refer every
single one of my family members
to.
My family is a family of
avoidant people.
Turn in secure.
Look at that.
It actually works.
It's so amazing.
But I absolutely love your work.
I'm I'm happy about the work
that you're doing out in the
world.
And for anybody who feels like
they are drawn to this work,
this is somebody I can actually
say I recommend.
It's not a stranger, it's
somebody I know very well.
I've known for many years.
And I just attest to your work.
And so many people that I've
I've sent to you, you know, even
my own clients that I work with
who are having breakthroughs.
I'm like, I don't think you
should do anything else without
talking to Gary.
Like, even if you're working
with us at the same time, go
talk to Gary.
Go push you to Gary.
And sometimes it takes people a
year, it takes people a couple
of years, and they're like, you
know, because sometimes you it's
it's wise to work with a male
and a female if you have issues
with with one or the other.
You know, it's it's something
that I've noticed that creates a
lot of balance, but it's also
just the work that you do is
just absolutely incredible.
So thank you for being you,
Gary.
SPEAKER_03: Thank you for saying
all that.
Yeah, I do think there's you
know, there's a balance in life
and working with both both
genders are is a wonderful
thing.
One of the saving graces of my
life was I had a woman a long
time ago was a woman therapist.
And after divorce, I was saying
all women, all women.
And I there was a mantra between
us, some women, some women.
You know, and I couldn't deny
she was not one of those women.
I mean, you know, it was this
pernicious truth.
Well, she doesn't fit the mold
that's coming out of this
divorce.
And, you know, I just love the
fact that uh you feel it's the
highest of honors when somebody
refers my work to others, their
clients or their family.
And so I take that as a high
honor indeed.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you.
Hmm.
Any last words, any last
messages for the people
listening to this who want more
of you, Gary?
SPEAKER_03: Well, you can you
know you can always reach out to
my website, but I want to leave
you with this.
So many times by the time we get
to a certain point in life, we
feel broken or hopeless.
And then if if it's not the
feeling of broken, it's the
feeling of unworthy because
you've been on enough apps and
there's been enough ghosting.
But I want, you know, and
there's an epidemic of people
feeling worthless, you know, not
enough.
And I want you to know that
you're not broken.
Some part of you is actually
working the way it's designed.
We just have to upgrade his
operating system, give it better
directions, better feelings, and
you are worthy to have the love
you want.
And it can be safe.
Yeah, you know, I'm in a
beautiful marriage that we every
day is like Christmas, waking up
with each other.
We laugh more than you can
imagine.
And, you know, this is doable
change.
Doable change.
And I no matter what the part is
that's afraid of having it
better, that comes up with all
sorts of reasons, you know.
Well, we don't know.
Did we ever live through better?
We don't know about that.
You know, you sure it's safe
over there?
Yes, it is safe.
And so this is doable change,
and you really can have the love
you deserve.
SPEAKER_00: Let's make miracles
happen.