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Art of Spousing is for marriages that what to move from being mundane to becoming masterpiece relationships. Hosts James and Lisa Duvall share truths and lessons learned from their 30 years of marriage and over a decade of teaching, coaching, and speaking on marriage.
Podcast: Art Of Spousing
Episode Title: Secrets Of Sex And Marriage With Shaunti Feldhahn
Host(s): Lisa, James
Guest(s): Shaunti
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Shaunti - 0:0:0
This is one of the only issues, probably the only issue actually, that most of us just never talk to anybody about. Sure. And so here's the problem is that because we don't talk about it, there's a lot of mythology that actually gets built up in our minds, and we start operating based on a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings. And so if we never actually sort of figure out how to communicate with our spouse around this topic, we'll keep operating based on these myths.
Lisa - 0:0:37
Welcome to this episode of Art Espousing podcast. Thanks for taking time outta your full life and joining us for this show.
James - 0:0:44
Yeah, we hope you had a great week. We are super excited about today's show. We have Shanti Feldon with us to talk about her new book, secrets of Sex and Marriage. Listen, this is a must read for your marriage. We've been blown away by the insights from this book.
Lisa - 0:0:58
Yeah. Shanti is a bestselling author, social researcher, speaker, and podcaster with a graduate degree from Harvard. She's super smart. I feel smarter after
James - 0:1:8
Being there much smarter than us for
Lisa - 0:1:9
Sure. . That's right. Shanti uses her analytical background to help relationships thrive. She and her husband Jeff, have co-authored groundbreaking relationship books with nearly 3 million copy
James - 0:1:20
Sold. That's amazing. So if you've ever wondered, are we normal? Or why isn't my spouse interested in sex like I am? Or maybe you've thought, I don't wanna feel pressured, but I don't want to disappoint my spouse. Or maybe you've wrestled with a question, how can we get on the same page and create a thriving, intimate life that's equally satisfying for both of us? Well, if any of those questions resonate with you, this episode is gonna be extremely helpful for you and your marriage.
Lisa - 0:1:45
It is gonna be a fascinating conversation. I can't wait. But before we jump into that conversation with Shanti, we want to make sure you know about the marriage reboot retreat. This is a two day intensive with James and I where we focus on defining your purpose and vision for your marriage. Take a listen to what Scott and Donna had to say about their reboot experience.
James - 0:3:6
So if you're interested in finding that more about their marriage reboot retreat, we will love to talk to you about it. You can schedule a call with us with a link in the show notes or online at our espousing.com/marriage coaching. You can also direct messages on Instagram with the word call C A L l, and we'll send you a link. Okay. Let's jump into our conversation with Shanti. Shanti, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's a real honor that be spending some time with you. Oh
Shaunti - 0:3:33
My gosh, I'm so excited. Thanks for asking me.
Lisa - 0:3:35
Well, we are so excited to talk about your book. We're gonna jump right in. We're excited to read it and in the throes of it and so such great stuff. What makes Secrets of Sex and Marriage so different from other intimacy and marriage books?
Shaunti - 0:3:49
So first of all, I can't quite believe that I've actually written an intimacy book, . So just let's start with that. .
Lisa - 0:3:57
I love it
Shaunti - 0:3:57
That this is being written by somebody who really didn't originally want to write an intimacy book. Basically, the difference between what we've tried to do and what a lot of other great resources are out there is that I know sort of the lane that God has called me to. There are plenty of good books out there that are written by, you know, somebody who's trying to write a sex manual. And that is not this . Cause I am not a psychologist . Right. And so one of the things that I feel pretty strongly about is staying in my lane. And that is really sort of a calling, I think as a researcher to dig out the little things that make a big difference. Mm Yeah. To help people in their relationships. And so I enlisted because I knew that this topic was so crucial for marriage, and I could do damage on this topic if I wasn't completely accurate.
Shaunti - 0:4:56
I actually enlisted one of our longtime advisors who's one of the most renowned sex therapists in the Christian community, Michael Seitzman to co-author this with me. And so what we did was we approached this as this is a research project. We are going to dig out what are those little things that matter that people don't recognize that matter because there's a lot of heartache in this area of marriage that doesn't have to be there. And so that's essentially what we were trying to solve. What are those things? So that's really kind of the narrow lane that we're trying to stick to.
James - 0:5:31
And this was a pretty massive research project, right? Like it's, can you talk a little bit about the research that went into the book?
Shaunti - 0:5:38
Yeah. This was a three year research project. It cost us $120,000. It was essentially the goal behind all, actually every research project that I've done, this was the 12th of our kind of big nationally representative studies. The goal of all of them, because it is to dig out those little things that matter, we essentially do it in several phases that I don't need to get into all the descriptions, but in the end it was with interviews and nationally representative surveys of more than 5,300 people. And it included the largest survey that's ever been done with married couples on this topic that has, that is a nationally representative sample.
Lisa - 0:6:22
So you say one thing you found was the importance of communication and intimacy in marriage. We know a lot of people don't wanna talk about this in their marriage. So is it ?
James - 0:6:33
We were just saying that the reason we're having you on the podcast is because we don't wanna talk about it .
Lisa - 0:6:38
So we're gonna invite our friend to talk about it. So tell us why it's important to talk about it.
Shaunti - 0:6:44
Okay. Here's the thing about this issue of communication. Like everybody knows that communication is important in marriage. Like we all know that. And yet on this topic, we also all don't wanna talk about it. It's just awkward, right? It's the sacred topic. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . And we don't wanna talk about it with each other cuz it's awkward. And we definitely don't really talk to like even our closest friends. Yeah. Like this is one of the only issues, probably the only issue actually, that most of us just never talk to anybody about. Sure. And so here's the problem is that because we don't talk about it, there's a lot of mythology that actually gets built up in our minds. And we start operating based on a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings. And so if we never actually sort of figure out how to communicate with our spouse around this topic, we'll keep operating based on these myths.
Shaunti - 0:7:45
And if you're, by definition, if you're operating based on wrong information, , there's gonna be some problems. Right? Yeah. That's right. And so that's actually one of the reasons that we were so excited to really dive in and do the research, which was honestly to give people what do you talk about? Yeah. Right? Like what are those things that are important? I think most of us, we tend to avoid talking about the topic because we think we're gonna be talking about techniques and body parts. Yeah. And none of us wanna go there. Right. Um, but one of the things that we found that was really essential for everybody to know is that when people are having tension around this topic, when there's misunderstandings, when there's disappointments, when somebody's feeling pressured, it's actually not about techniques. Right? It's actually, there's a bunch of other stuff that's running outta the surface. And once we think of it that way, like it's about, you know, these different expectations and how I was raised to think something should be this way or that way and maybe insecurities and worries and beliefs about this topic and that stuff is actually a lot easier to talk about. Yeah. And that's, those are the real issues. Yeah.
Lisa - 0:9:4
Let's talk about some of those myths. I'd love to hear that. Yeah.
Shaunti - 0:9:6
Yeah. Well one of the most important ones, I'll just be really frank, is because we don't talk to even our closest friends about this topic. Literally the only idea that we have about how sex kind of works is either what's gone on in our own personal life or what we see on the screen, right? Mm-hmm. , right? Like that's kind of it. Like there's no other input generally. And so we see something on television or a movie and it gives us that there's this one way that sex and intimacy and desire just work. Mm-hmm. , and you could kind of describe it the sort of the Hollywood way, , you could kind of describe it as this concept that the man and the woman look at each other. This is what you see portrayed, right. That the man and the woman look at each other and there's some sort of spark.
Shaunti - 0:9:57
Yeah. Like there's this hunger, there's this, the desire that rises up and pretty soon they start kissing and the clothes are off and they're in bed. Right? Right. Like, and it's just, that's the way it works. Like you feel desire and you do something about it. Well, it turns out in terms of myths, that that is one way that desire works. But there's a second way that it works as well that is just as common, actually a little more common. And it gets in the, in the way of our happiness and our marriage and our satisfaction in our intimate life when we think there's just this one way. Because if we don't see that happening in our intimate life, right. If you know the a, the say, the higher desire person is like, why doesn't my spouse want me? Why aren't they interested? Because in to their mind, interested means you have that feeling of desire and you're ripping my clothes off.
Shaunti - 0:10:52
Right. Right. Like, that's what that means. And so, and it, it's like, oh my gosh, am I not as desirable? And then the other person feels pressure, like, what's wrong with me? Am I broken? Like I don't, I don't fit that. And so there's this huge freedom that actually comes by saying, okay, that's one type of desire you could call that initiating desire. Okay? Mm-hmm. . And that's the, you feel something, you feel that sense of desire, you do something about it. But the second type of desire that most people don't even know exists is called receptive desire. Interesting. Mm-hmm. And receptive desire actually physiologically works in the reverse order. This was like this huge surprise to me. And it essentially, literally the person with receptive desire, that person has to decide to get sexually engaged with their partner. They're not feeling that sense of desire.
Shaunti - 0:11:46
Okay. They, it's a decision. And so as they start getting engaged with their partner in that way, then things start moving in their physiology. And assuming that this is all positive, like this is all assuming a marriage of goodwill, right. And all that kind of stuff. But assuming that that's positive, eventually they start feeling the desire maybe even five to 10 minutes later that their spouse felt from the very beginning. And so it's not that one person is broken, it's not that they're not interested, it's that you have a Hollywood idea of what interest means. And so just knowing this one difference, it, it brings changer. So much freedom.
James - 0:12:26
Yeah. So does one gender, male or female tend to be more on the side of initiating desire?
Shaunti - 0:12:32
? Yeah, I think we know . We can probably guess the answer to that one , but it's not universal. Right? Okay. It, that tends to be more the male oriented sort of pattern, but it's not universal. Actually I think it was 16% of women had initiating desire. I'm trying to remember some of the numbers. It was in this, again, in the nationally representative survey. If you look at which couples have the husband have higher desire versus the wife have higher desire, 24% of of couples, the wife is actually the one who has the higher sex drive, the higher libido, once sex more often. This is something a little bit different, which is about the type of desire, and I think it was 73% of women have the receptive desire.
James - 0:13:18
Okay. So that may be why there's a myth that guys want sex more than girls want sex. Right? Yeah.
Shaunti - 0:13:24
Because it's, what do you mean by want, right? Yeah. Like it was interesting, one of our very first informal surveys, cause we, we did a lot of informal surveys, we did a lot of focus groups, we did a lot of that before we did the big national surveys, you know, and one of our informal surveys, we just sent out an email to all of our followers and anyone who wanted to pass it around and basically said, if you could ask a sex therapist one question about your intimate life, you know, what would it be? And I don't remember eight, 900 people responded. And the top answer by far was, why isn't my spouse interested? You know, why don't they want me? And it's because you have sort of a myth, a mythological idea about what wanting and what interest means. Your spouse is probably just as interested as you are. It's just activated completely differently.
James - 0:14:22
Interesting. That's really amazing. That's so informative, so liberating. Just to, to know that. So that's a pretty big surprise. I mean finding, I would think, you know, as you're getting this, were there any other like major surprises or like ahas that you came across as you're doing this research?
Shaunti - 0:14:36
Oh my gosh, are you kidding? Like everything was a surprise. , nothing was a surprise to our co-author Dr. Mike, you know, the sex therapist, he's been doing this for 30 years. Like nothing surprised him. But everything surprised me in and Josh,
James - 0:14:51
Right. I should use a dad joke and say there was no climax to like the surprises. Oh,
Shaunti - 0:14:56
Good grief. Oh, you're so bad. That's not funny. That's not even funny. Funny dad joke, but that's worse. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Can't make that dad joke. That's right. Um, you know, it's really, it's interesting. I was personally really taken aback and really kind of convicted I guess by the recognition that here, you know, Jeff and I, when we started the project, we've been married 25 years now it's 28 years. We started this married 25 years. And I realized there was so much I didn't know about him and there was so much that he didn't know about me. And there were so many of these things that we realized we're believing these thoughts in our heads that just aren't true necessarily. And it was really kind of challenging and convicting to go, wow, we really haven't talked about this enough. Like we really haven't communicated, here's another surprise.
Shaunti - 0:15:51
Like here was another one of the ones that to me was like, whoa. One of the biggest, most common issues, one of the biggest sort of, even though it's sort of a minor thing to some people, common day-to-day conflict on this topic comes just because one spouse wants more than the other. Right? Like that's just, that's one of the most common kind of pain points. And that's 79% of couples. Okay. 79% of couples, one spouse wants more than the other. And, and so it lends itself to all these like, why don't you want me? And you know, some of these emotional things, we think that when one spouse wants more than the other, that this disconnect, this gap, that there's one reason why we think it's because this person, the lower de desire person just has a lower libido. Like it's a lower sex drive.
Shaunti - 0:16:41
And so that's the reason. And that is certainly, that's what I used to think. Absolutely. And so what that does sort of sneaky, but it's in all of our brains what that means. If that would be true, if it is that this lower desired person, that's the reason, is there a lower libido, oh my gosh. That basically means it's, that's person's fault. Yeah. Right. Like yeah. I mean what pressure Yeah. To put on that person for them to feel like, you know, the reason for the disappointment and the heartache and the whatever, it's me. And that's not healthy. Right? And so one of the big aha moments that was so encouraging and basically what the whole book was about and trying to dig out were, okay, you have this gap and it turns out, yeah, one person might have a lower desire level, but that is usually not the issue.
Shaunti - 0:17:28
Like that may be there some of the time, but the vast majority of the time there are a lot of other reasons like the different desired types. Hmm. Right. Like the, somebody who has initiating desire may not know that the receptive desire person, they just need to be approached differently. Right. They need to know what you've got on your menu for the evening before you get to the bedroom. . Like, you know, you have to like fart with them or like link at them, you know? Right. Like whatever it is that you know, it, it sort of gets some thinking about it. And, and that lends itself to one of the other surprises. So cuz basically the whole book was like, okay, what are the reasons for this? What are some of the things we need to know? And one of them was that we just literally don't have signals of what one person or both people would like to have happen later.
Shaunti - 0:18:19
Like, and we don't know to take our spouse's signal as a signal. And so there's this disappointment like, I thought something was gonna happen tonight and then it didn't, you know, or somebody feeling, you know, pressure because somebody was disappointed and they didn't even know, you know, that that was a thing. And so that simple thing of, okay, how do we initiate or how do we signal that we're open? Okay. Can I tell one of my favorite stories? I just, I'm ready. One of my favorite stories, we, we actually talk about it in the chapter in the book because I just loved it so much, was this one guy and his wife, this one man and woman who had been married, I can't remember how many years they had been married, but they had a couple kids, the usual busy life and he was a sort of the stereotypical initiating desire, higher desire person.
Shaunti - 0:19:6
She was more the stereotypical receptive desire, slightly lower libido. So they realized they needed to have some way for her to signal her level of openness. Okay. . And so they got a dry erase marker and on their master, in their master bathroom, like this little inconspicuous corner of the mirror, she was a pharmacist and she worked these crazy long hours and she'd be tired sometimes. So on the mirror she would write a number between one and 10 every evening. Like, you know, I've had a really hard shift, you know, my number today, you know like numbers one through four was basically stay back if you wanna keep your parts .
Shaunti - 0:19:49
I was like, I'm just not feeling it tonight. And I think eight, nine or 10 was basically like, I'm a sure bet if you ask. And then, you know, five, six and seven was like maybe like, you know, let's see what happens, let's see what the attention level is like, you know, but it gave the husband, he would check the mirror when she got home from her shift every night. And it would give him a sense of, oh my gosh, the poor thing, she's had a hard day. Let's just, you know, sit on the couch and watch tv. Right. Versus Oh okay. Like if I play my cards right Yeah we, we might get there. And if you have something like that, some way of signaling Yeah. It takes away all of this like edginess. Yeah. Like is it, is it not? Is something gonna happen? Is it not? And it takes away that sense of disappointment and pressure. And again, when you talk about communicating, that's another type of communicating. Yeah. Right, right.
Lisa - 0:20:46
I love it. We had this couple we were working with and actually she was the initiator and so we determined they needed a signal, a queue they
James - 0:20:54
A cue, we call it
Lisa - 0:20:55
Queue. They need a queue. Yeah. So we're just like, y'all probably need to come up with a cue that you're like, you're, you know, things are moving in that direction. So funny. They decided the word cupcake was their cue. So they were at dinner with at someone's house. And so when they got in the car he's like, you know, dessert was great but there was no cupcakes . And she's like, okay, I hear you. I'm like, I think it makes it fun. And like I can imagine this guy getting up looking at the mirror at the end of the night, I going, what's the number? What's the
James - 0:21:24
Number? You know you were saying that and remind me, I don't know if you ever watched the show Shark Tank. Yeah. But there was a show where somebody brought in an invention that was a cue system for both sides of the bed that one spouse could like hit the light if they were up for it and the other so they could cue each other. It's funny that you're talking about this being a big issue because like the guys on Shark Tank laughed him off the set I actually thought was interesting. Pretty genius. But
Shaunti - 0:21:49
They, they thought it was ridiculous.
James - 0:21:51
Yeah. But I think it's, I think you're proving the point that couples have a hard time.
Shaunti - 0:21:55
Yeah. We can give 'em some statistics on how stupid it was for them to laugh them off the set . Yeah. We actually looked at whether couples had some sort of a cue, had some sort of a signal, had some thing that they both knew how to interpret it and those that didn't or those that maybe one person thought they had a signal but their spouse didn't know to interpret it as a signal. Right. And if I'm remembering correctly, I'd have to go look up the numbers, but I think it was something like two-thirds or 70% some number like that of the couples that had signals were having a relatively decent like intimate life and connection and it was like 40% or 40 something of the couples that didn't like this is a big deal. Yeah.
Lisa - 0:22:41
Yeah.
Shaunti - 0:22:41
It's statistically,
James - 0:22:42
Yeah. We find that all the time when we're coaching couples in this area that like one, the first thing we say is like, hey you gotta come, come up with a cue so that both of you know. So it's makes a difference that the science is behind that. That's
Shaunti - 0:22:54
Right. Yeah. There you go. Now you've got some numbers.
Lisa - 0:22:56
That's right. You know, when you were talking about you and Jeff when you entered into this book at 25 years and now you're at 28 years of marriage, the things you didn't know that you're like, it made me think of, it's kind of sad and it's kind of exciting because for me there's so much I didn't, my mother still hasn't explained the birds and the bees and I've had three children. I really don't know how it happened. So I'm like, so really literally no information. Not even just technique, but just the, the science behind this, what you're talking about. Yeah. It's, it's crazy. But then it's kind of exciting because there's just so much more to learn, you know, when you're thinking. Yeah,
Shaunti - 0:23:31
It is.
Lisa - 0:23:32
It is. And so we've
Shaunti - 0:23:33
Been married, it's so much And it's also learning about your spouse. Yeah. Yeah. I mean truly that's, that's what's so cool about this is like the way we designed the book for example, you know, our co-author, the sex therapist, like he knows that what people most need is just to be able to talk about it and connect about it. Right. And so when he was really from the very beginning, like, we have to design this book so that it would be easy for the average couple to just read it together, like read it out loud to each other and we've been hearing the coolest stories, you know, cuz the book just is out, right? Like it's brand new. And we've been hearing the coolest stories of a couple be like, okay, we've never talked about this before, but this kind of gives us an excuse.
Shaunti - 0:24:19
And you know, they'll read, they said, you know, okay, we'll read half a chapter a night and they end up reading like three or four sentences because it's like, is this how you feel? Wait, uh, really? Like yeah I've been trying to explain that to you but you know, this gives words to it and I'm, you know, I'm in the 80% here or well I'm actually in the 20% that's not, I'm not the typical. And it's like, you know, they spend an hour or two talking about three sentences and suddenly there's so much more intimacy. Yeah. Like so much more close intimacy. Not in the physical sense, like intimacy in the true oneness in your marriage sense. I like because you really get to know the other person. Right.
Lisa - 0:25:0
Well you answered part of my question and maybe there's more to it, but it's like what would you want people to take away from this as they read it? Which you really to start talking about it obviously, but is there anything else that just comes to the top and you're like, as people read this, we're really hoping they take away what
Shaunti - 0:25:15
We are really hoping candidly that they will take away a much greater sense of closeness. Right. Like that they go, wow, like this actually helps me understand my spouse better because there's also like all this emotional stuff under the surface and I didn't know you felt that way. And you know, all of that stuff we all get right. Like we all get that that's in there. We don't know how to articulate it. And so the hope is is that this will help validate both people, you know, where they both get a chance to try to explain things that maybe have been in there that they haven't known how to explain. And so then the overall goal obviously is to have this area of our marriage instead of being an opportunity for conflict, now it's an opportunity for connection. Oh,
James - 0:26:1
That's great. You know, one of the things that has resonated with me with this book is the question that I never really contextualized it that people ask this question is, are we normal? Yeah. You know? And so I think, yeah, I think that's the great thing about this book is it puts in context from research what is normal. I mean, everybody's different, right? And so I think so many couples, because we don't talk about it because it's kind of a taboo topic, especially in the church world, right. You know, I think a lot of couples struggles like is is what's going on between us normal or not? You know?
Shaunti - 0:26:32
And it's so life giving to know that you're not alone. Yeah. Jeff and I, we were doing a marriage event at a church last weekend, big church in Omaha, and the pastor and his wife, they were so, so taken by this topic now, you know, the marriage event was a Friday night, Saturday morning we covered other topics, right? Like this, this is just one of the topics we were covering. And they watched out into the audience as they see these couples as we're talking through it and people are going like, there's this life that comes to their face when they realize we are not alone. You know? And they, and we did these things like we do these live polls where everybody's anonymous, but you see it on the screen, you know what percentage of people are the initiating versus receptive or whatever, right? And you see people go, oh my gosh, like you see all the men go, wow, 78% of the women in the room said they were receptive and you could see like everybody, like it completely changes people's viewpoint. It's like, oh my gosh, this is real
Lisa - 0:27:31
. That's amazing. The interesting thing is to know that we're normal in so many other facets of our life, we wanna hear about that. We, we wanna know that like, oh that makes sense. Yes. Like when I think about marriage topics, we often talk about, we talk about conflict like conflict's, normal conflict's a place that you can gain. You know, it's an opportunity for unity. It's like, but all those things, but, and you go, oh, as a married couple, you go, oh great, it's great to know that you and James have conflict or other people have conflict. But in this area, the release of that you are normal. These are normal challenges. Yeah. And even the gap there of like filling it with trust that it's not about you personally. Yeah. It's just about uh, not understanding one another. Yeah. What freedom. Oh my goodness.
Shaunti - 0:28:11
Well, and also even things that are getting more to like the more technical side of things, like, you know, one of the things that I was really surprised about not being a sex therapist, right? And because you know, we don't talk about this with our friends, that it was something like 30, I think 31% of women, which is a, like a big number, 31% of women had significant sexual pain at least every third time that they had sex. And it was like for women to go, whoa, you know, I thought that I was the only one, right? Like I didn't know there was like a thing and you can do something about it. And it's like this life giving thing to go, I don't have to be in pain. Mm-hmm. and I don't have to kind of shy away from it and my poor husband doesn't have to like worry that he's hurting me. You know? Like there's ways to deal with this and it's some of this stuff it's like we just haven't talked about it. And so people have kind of stayed, they've stayed kind of in the shadows, right? Like they've stayed hurting and hiding and it's just not needed. Yeah. There's so much life and freedom once you understand just how much there is out there and the fact that you're not alone. Yeah.
James - 0:29:20
Yeah. Do you have plans to do any other resources with this book?
Shaunti - 0:29:23
Yeah, actually, so Dr. Mike and Jeff and I, we are actually creating a curricula for the church. Oh come on. For like church small groups and how do we do this like in a safe way, right? Right. And so it's gonna be a marriage curriculum with an intimacy focus. Okay. As sort of, and it gives people a chance to kind of sort of dip their toe into that and go, okay, this is, we've figured out how as a small group we can talk about marriage stuff and, and then if they wanna choose to go a little further into the intimacy, they can keep going. And so, but that's one of the big things that we're gonna be filming in two months. Wow. Oh
James - 0:30:0
That's
Shaunti - 0:30:0
Fantastic. Wow. We're very excited about that. And there's other things as well, like we're creating an assessment and a streaming course just for couples to do privately and there's gonna be other things as well. We, we actually, if you're interested, we actually have a website we've already created with a lot of resources. Yes. We love
James - 0:30:16
To
Shaunti - 0:30:16
Have that. The, the website is the same as the book title, it's Secrets of Sex and marriage.com and um, and so there's a bunch of articles there like about things like sexual pain, like what do you do? And there's an article there for getting more help if you realize wow, you know, like I need to get some specialized help in this particular area. We have resources to refer people onwards.
James - 0:30:36
Awesome. We'll put that in the show notes. You know, you were saying about the curriculum your, for churches, you know, one of the things we say at the church we attend is that the church should be the safest place for the hardest conversations.
Shaunti - 0:30:46
Yes. Oh I love that. You know, oh my gosh, that's a great way of putting
James - 0:30:50
It. Yeah. So the fact that you're creating something in a safe place, in an environment where people can have the conversations I think is really powerful.
Lisa - 0:30:58
You talk about movies showing the one view that you have this view of this is how it is and we've just allowed the culture to speak in and educate us on things that's very, very shallow, very one-dimensional. So we really appreciate what God is doing through you and in this book I'm just believing that it's gonna make a difference, that we're actually tackling the issue that we should be talking about it because it's God's design. So thank you so much.
James - 0:31:24
Well it's a great book and we're gonna put the link in the show notes to all the places where people can purchase it and we'd encourage listeners to definitely get it and read it. Read it together with your spouse. What a great tool to do that. Open up communication and check
Lisa - 0:31:36
Out the website so that you can see what resources are there. That would be awesome too.
James - 0:31:40
Yeah. Shanti, thank you so much for taking the time to be on
Shaunti - 0:31:43
The podcast with us. I really appreciate it.
Lisa - 0:31:46
Wow. There is so much good content in that conversation. Hopefully you feel encouraged and inspired to get the book, read it with your spouse and have some great conversations around sexual intimacy. James, I believe that information is empowering and this book is so informative.
James - 0:32:3
That's true. It really is such helpful content. So thanks again Shanti, for spending some time with us to create this show. And thanks to all of you listeners for taking time to listen to the podcast.
Lisa - 0:32:13
If you have any questions or comments about what you heard today, we would love to connect. Email us@artespousing.com. You can also message us on Instagram at Art espousing. We wanna invite you back next week. James, I'm so excited this cuz I'm such an Ingram lover. Yes. And I actually am a fan girl of Beth and Jeff McCord, founders of your Ingram coach and authors of the books becoming us and more than your number and they're gonna gonna be on the show. It's gonna be amazing. We're gonna have great Enneagram conversation and I'm so excited.
James - 0:32:44
That's awesome. We hope you'll join us for that. Have a great week and we'll see you next time at the Artist Spousing podcast. Until then, bye-bye. Bye-bye.