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课代表立正的官方Podcast
深度访谈，有用干货，亲身验证的「真本事」
Superlinear Academy创始人，Maven Top AI Instructor
前Statsig布道师（OpenAI收购），腾讯副总监，Meta，Amazon；康奈尔经济学博士
社区：Superlinear.Academy
课程：ai-builders.com
个人：lizheng.ai
i think the chinese consumer is very
very conscious about what they're
putting in their body but not everyone's
going to accept that exactly you know uh
in america you can
you can be in control of the guest
experience 100
and
what it's taught me about the local
palette
i like the most i do not like serving
white truffles
because you know it allows it's in the
concept that you need to be spending
time on research and development on
thinking on innovating and it's almost
an oxymoron in
i mean they can do financing
i mean every chef i think has to be a
good host i would say the overall
concept of the food doesn't change very
much uh yeah so that's kind of the first
question right how different
it is in united states and here
here is starting but uh
yeah changing
they don't i think people are following
the trend but they don't yet know why
but if you like you just talked about uh
health and you know
i think the chinese consumer is very
very conscious about what they're
putting in their body you know the
types of uh allergies or restrictions
are very different than in america and
canada what type of
allergies are here it's you know
depending on the type of the time of the
month if they've had surgery
inflammation
uh time of the day
you
yeah the wetness so you know you're very
you know conscious about these things
but
you know we don't think about all of the
chemicals or pesticides in in
industrial farming you know but
if you connect these two you would
realize
it's actually something you should also
be very concerned about you know
you know and
uh you know we have a lot of people that
won't eat raw food including vegetables
because you know at a time yeah it was
you know just sanitary to cook
everything you know yeah but now i think
you know the mines are changing now you
know if we serve a cold salad it's
acceptable to most people most people
but still not everyone yet even in this
restaurant which i think is fascinating
okay so one of the biggest a big big
challenge of the big biggest challenges
are
you know
presenting this concept to people
who may not yet appreciate
it
what are the other
you know challenges in trying to
you know
do more of what you want to do
you mean
like how can i do more
the challenges of trying to do more like
you you have a vision right and you try
to get to that vision and you have to
try to balance many things yeah yeah i
mean it's it's
the vision is is you know way down in
the future
in the countryside somewhere you know
it's not in the city but
in the city in this restaurant um
yeah like we do have to balance you know
what the guests want at the end of the
day so you know i can
choose my menu
and this is what i think is amazing
right now and you know it's different
from last season and it's a new
expression a new artistic journey
but not everyone's gonna accept that
exactly you know like you always have to
change like i said depending on the
restrictions
i'm gonna have to change dishes
preferences
um
i think
and this is also something i'm learning
too is that uh in america you can
you can be in control of the guest
experience 100 and they actually love
that yeah they don't want to have any
choice you know
i show up and you're going to tell me
what i'm going to eat what i'm going to
drink what's going to happen where i'm
going to do and like you know
like the blue hill experience they take
you around as part of this whole
experience but here i think
that you know the chinese consumer still
wants a lot of choice
like an a la carte menu would be more
successful and so i'm always balancing i
can't do full choice i still have to
offer supplements
options around restrictions more choices
uh and we're you know it's
and we're heading in that direction to
keep adding more and more choice
is that uh
something i want to do no no no
is that because of uh they're not used
to this a set manual or is it because
it's a lot of different factors
they spend a lot of money they want to
have more control yeah they want a
little bit more control they're not used
to giving it up especially if you're you
know bond you know okay
they want to they want to have the
option
then
that only so many people can choose
so like you know
yes this is the price of the menu but i
also want to be able to buy something
extra you know i want to stand through
uh alcohol yeah
yeah alcohol is one of them but also
just you know yeah luxury products you
know yeah yeah
but they offered us in uh
other uh financial restaurant like oh by
truffle
yeah i mean we do that here as well yeah
yeah
i have another way of asking a similar
but the other side of the question
so
uh the compromise compromise you made
which one do you think is the one you
actually
liked or uh
felt necessary and which one you hated
the most uh
i mean we have to compromise on local
palette
um
and
what it's taught me about the local
palette
i like the most because it's you know
it's teaching me a different way to
taste things it's opening my mind up
it's educating me
you know and i think that's
it's also taught me a lot about i think
the chinese i always say
um
has a sixth uh taste
you know like they say the japanese six
taste is umami i think the chinese is
texture oh yeah and i read about your
visual texture yeah i noticed that in
the food yeah so i think
it's it's really opened my mind up to
what texture is and how to approach
texture both flavor visually
artistically everything and so that's
been the biggest education coming to
china for me as a as a chef
and i think no matter where i am in the
future
you know that's going to come with me
you know and that appreciation and
understanding
uh and then
yeah compromise that i don't like is is
you know doing something for the guests
uh to make them happy that i know
they're equal yeah to feed their ego
that i think compromises on our
philosophy
you know so one is serving white
truffles i do not like serving white
truffles
because
it doesn't fit our concept of using
local products but it's something we
have to do in china if we're not doing
white truffles then we're going to lose
out on a lot of money
you know a lot of things so
maybe a.d shouldn't hear this so
i'm not doing it
i was not happy with doing white
truffles but found it necessary
you don't like
not it doesn't fit for me it's our
concept is is
it's about promoting chinese products
and then
you know white truffles is kind of just
something for the rich people and i you
know when you become just a just to
cater to money and you stop being like
an artistic expression in life is the
single element that worked the most
yeah i mean yeah it is that's what i'm
saying i can't do it i i have to do it
yeah
yeah it's necessary like i think it's
fine but as long as you are able to hold
on to our core right yeah and you i feel
like from at least from the dining
experience yesterday you have been quite
success quite successful of doing that
yeah about i mean it's not just me
obviously it's
a lot of uh you know the understanding
comes from the team right you know like
i didn't know anything when i came and
then
you know trips that ricky nader took me
around china you know talking to my
cooks in the kitchen
getting them to taste the food getting
their feedback you know helps me get to
a certain point you know have you
watched
on the jungle
it's a
chinese chinese documentary taste of
china taste of china yeah yeah yeah yeah
yeah also fascinating yeah
that's the first
chinese tv show that i feel really
emphasized on the local ingredients and
local traditional way of i think that
yeah it's really well done you know and
it really
goes into the
back yeah the back countries the country
side you said you chose to do fine
dining because the price allows for
experimentation
yeah i mean
usually
fine dining um
can eat up a lot of costs
that
regular restaurants don't have the
privilege of you know
in it you know simple things like just
buying nice plates you know things like
this you know
uh
getting luxury products that would
you're not limited to the products
because whether it's expensive or not
you can you can adjust it in your menu
accordingly and the people coming
already are expecting to pay high price
so
they're not surprised
but i guess the trade-off the biggest
trade-off i've identified is you have
this vision and you want more people
do you but i'm guessing you want more
people to
learn about this concept and you know
appreciate the ingredients for example
or
agree to this concept yeah i mean it's
already happening in china that story
knows a difference in three years the
limitation of doing fundani is influence
or impact is limited to you know the
i actually disagree i think it's the
opposite
so i think if you have uh
you know let's say a family restaurant
200 people every night you know you're
busy
you're usually so busy you can't even
step back to really think about
uh ex you know
food in an artistic and expressive way i
think fine dining doing less covers
uh you know it allows it's in the
concept that you need to be spending
time on research and development on
thinking on innovating
it's part of the the equation of that
restaurant and
also through the success if it is
successful
um then the exposure is much more known
you know that's true a local restaurant
that's doing 200 yeah might have a it's
local diners coming there every night
but they're going to be a lot more
repeat guests you know people are
traveling all around the country to come
visit us because because now
we are exposed because we are now and
then
because of that we're doing interviews
you know we're being exposed right now
on the concepts and the philosophy so i
think fine dining uh puts you at a stage
that you influence more people but maybe
less people get to actually experience
it yeah okay physically but you know
through you know media and stuff they
can experience it at the same time
especially in our time you know on
instagram you can check anything anytime
you know back then you could only
experience fine dining if you went there
yep you know
do you have any uh instagram account i
do yeah i'm not i'm not a
active instagramer that much
i should be uh you know people always
tell me i should be more active on
social media and stuff but
yeah
yeah like if you like it uh then sure
but uh even if you don't like it maybe
it's better for the i don't know
i like a little bit of secrecy you know
cool
but again on the the
the difference too i think
so farm to table uh the concepts of what
make farm to table which like if you
pull it back the sustainability
philosophies or the philosophies about
sustainability
those are not necessarily always
practiced well and it's almost an
oxymoron in
uh which means kind of like
two words that mean opposite things in
the same sense like jumbo shrimp shrimps
are always small yeah
jumbo shrimp that's an oxymoron so a
sustainable fine dining is almost the
same in my mind or farm to tamil fine
dining and the fact that when you do
find dining you're always picking the
most perfect piece you're wasting a lot
of food
and
the concept of farm to table and
sustainability is to do the opposite
right and so i think
uh
you know when you you know yes you can
be an all vegan
plant-based restaurant which is very
sustainable
but
even if you work with farms and products
and you really try to look at it and use
up every aspect of that product in that
animal and then that's like what comes
into our storytelling as well is that
you know we're presenting something
beautiful that looks very calculated and
organized but in reality we're not
wasting that much food you know
and and i think that is kind of you know
something special in itself
okay the other side of this question is
so a lot of the concept
is
can be better uh
expressed in fundamentally so
for non-sale right the chinese
countryside chef
they cannot defend anything right the
what uh requirements does it take
i mean they can do financing
they can but uh
i don't know if they're gonna be
successful right
so what so one is the the consumer you
know is is someone gonna go in the
countryside in china to visit this small
place
to have
probably not probably not right but in
america that's
a lot of people get it there's a you
know get in their car they go on the
weekends they go into the countryside
and they
you know visit
uh small
quaint
restaurants
um
and so i think that's you know something
like the michelin guide in france
is for this purpose it's literally for
this purpose a three-star meant you go
out you know you go out a two-star maybe
you take a detour or one star you you
just if you're in the same city yeah so
people would say oh there's a three star
and like the culture around the michelin
and like people actually trying to
discover these restaurants in the
countryside yeah and then it led to okay
well
you know like like myself i'm a chef
that wants to be closer to the products
i'm going to go open a restaurant on the
countryside and do fine dining
and then
and i can you know if i get three stars
within the first five years and i can be
successful you know or two stars or
whatever one star even
but if you don't get any you know
accolades
you would rely on your business to be
local wait wait wait wait wait but
that's the difference
a different part uh
you you have the confidence
at least the possibility of you getting
one two three star uh
even if you are in the countryside right
but let's say there's no michelin for
you know yeah so you at least need to be
confident in your ability to attract
someone to take the tour
to go and visit your countryside right
so what i'm trying to get is uh
what are the most necessary skills
necessary skills for a chef to be
successful other than you know emphasize
other ingredients uh well i mean it has
to be a good experience
but for the chef for the shows of the
chef
he has to be a good host i mean every
chef i think has to be a good host but
even more so when
uh you're putting the experience
out in the countryside so for example
like let's look at some restaurants that
i think are well known in the
countryside i mean blue hills 45 minutes
away yeah it's not like completely out
it's not that it is so hard but with you
know favicon
so favican used to be i think it closed
down now it used to be a restaurant five
hours away from stockholm in sweden in
the very north oh you oh yeah but it
used it was still popular why
because you know
he still did a good experience but you
go there for the weekend he has a little
place you can sleep
you know you stay there you eat a great
breakfast
you know i had an example you might but
uh we lose him but recently it's been
criticized yeah yeah
but it also willow's in for a while too
you know it's a good experience you
still have to go there
and so like i think it becomes it's not
just like a restaurant like this
restaurant will attract anyone
uh you know business dinners
people looking for a special night you
know a rent a birthdays celebrations all
of that but like meadowwood all of these
restaurants in the middle of you know
how to just go part of a larger trip you
know it's part of like
okay i heard about this restaurant so i
think in the modern time
uh you have to be good at marketing
marketing social media these kind of
things to at least get people to know
that you're out there
um i think there's a couple exceptions
and i actually you know like i worked
with a couple of them like i said this
farm above toronto
he didn't really care about accolades or
marketing or that much he just uh
but he had spent some time in toronto
so he had created his own kind of
clients and you know does he innovate a
lot does he make a lot of new dishes
i would i didn't see many much
innovation like he had figured i mean he
was uh when i worked for me was already
50 you know so he's already you know at
the end of his career he had come to his
innovation and i think his innovation
came more in like how he presented the
experience not in necessarily the food
and what i mean by that is like he had
his contacts he had an email list
and he would do special events using his
land
like a dinner a mobile dinner experience
where you would go into the field to
have one course over here for the next
course and you know and he would send
out an email he would do this once a
month and so of course people go and
they had such a unique experience that
he creates enough attention that people
will go just for the regular dinner
which is just in his farmhouse you know
so he does special events mixed with you
know his regular experience
how is the food
i mean the food is good and it's like a
eight course tasting menu
it's very fresh it's like all from the
farm
he raises his own pigs chickens
cattle vegetables all that stuff and
people would go for different
experiences experiencing the same food
and it will still be i mean the food
changes like the dishes always change
the dishes are always changing but i
would say the overall concept of the
food doesn't change very much you know
but like
you know you look confused like it's
hard to explain like because once you
once you've created this style yeah
you know the style stays the same
yeah but like maybe a few explanations
yeah the combinations are slightly
changed depending on the season
it's lamb with carrots next day it's
lamb with turnips next day it's lamb
with potatoes you know
it's le it's lamb with a vegetable yeah
yeah maybe it's
because he uses whole animals first day
it's rack then it's slow cooked leg then
it's a you know uh a sausage or terrine
you know so the ingredients are all kind
of the same
the reason the pairings are slightly
different yeah the reason i look
confused because i thought this is what
restaurant most restaurants do i thought
they don't change the concept to change
the combination but
from your experience it seems like a lot
of restaurants they actually the concept
is involving
yeah drastically over time depending on
what stage of their career they're in
you know sometimes they're making
dramatic changes like if you look at
ensue from our first year to now i think
it's much different yeah but meadow
would yeah like when i first started it
was very different from when i ended
but the last three years were very
dissimilar we're the same okay and you
know partially why i left was because i
had seen the cycles of the seasons and i
had already you know like oh now we're
doing a cod dish again in early spring
okay we're gonna probably do it with
sunflowers for two weeks and then we'll
switch to this dit you know because we
know when how things are going you
become efficient you become more perfect
you've mastered the combinations but the
innovation stage
has you know has a
majority of the innovation stage has
happened it's still happening a little
bit but it's not as much as you know
like when you come to a new country this
is also why you know again in china it's
like it's so different so much changing
so much trying so much innovation may
also chinese restaurants if you notice
like the menus don't change very often
yeah yeah like uh you find a signature
dish and you keep with it you know you
know you know
you can have a popular restaurant known
on one dish in china you know and i
think for me that's a very foreign
concept it was also uncomfortable for me
like i like change
i have this saying it's uh change is
inevitable but growth is optional i
think it's important that you're always
trying to you know change and grow and
become