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Art of Spousing is for marriages that what to move from being mundane to becoming masterpiece relationships. Hosts James and Lisa Duvall share truths and lessons learned from their 30 years of marriage and over a decade of teaching, coaching, and speaking on marriage.
So really the challenge for us is as we
think about these two words, is how are we
choosing to view our spouse through the
lens of judgment and focusing on
weaknesses? Or are we viewing them through
the lens of value and celebrating their
strengths? Or another way of saying it is,
will we choose to look at our spouse
through the lens of pride or through the
lens of humility? And the key to
understanding the grace of God in our
lives is choosing to allow grace to move
us from isolation to unity. Hello and
welcome to another episode of the Artist
spousing podcast. Thanks for taking time
to join us for the show. Maybe you're
listening for the first time. We want to
let you know we're super glad you're here.
So I want to share just a little bit about
us. We genuinely believe that every
marriage has the potential to be a
masterpiece, revealing its unique, God
designed purpose. And we've learned that a
strong relationship doesn't just happen by
chance, it really takes intentional effort
and shaping. So with every episode, Lisa,
you and I's main goal is to give practical
tools and tips that can help a
relationship not only survive, but truly
thrive. That's exactly right. We hope
you've had a great couple of weeks. Since
our last episode, life has been flying by
with us. We did a reboot with an
incredible young couple, did some
enneagram coaching and had a speaking
opportunity at a reengage gathering. It
has been really full, not busy. Full and
fantastic. Yeah, it's true. Actually, what
we want to share with you today is based
on what we shared at that reengage event.
We thought we were going to teach about
prayer and marriage in this episode, but
after putting this content together for
the talk, we thought we would share it
with you. But before we jump in, we do
want to take a moment to talk about the
marriage reboot. With the year wrapping up
and a new year right around the corner,
the next couple of months are a great time
to start thinking about goals and dreams
for your future and so maybe a great time
for you to think about how to invest in
your marriage with a Marriage Reboot.
Yeah. The Marriage Reboot is an exclusive
one on one experience that will empower
you to uncover your marriage purpose and
actually start living into it. This will
be a two day transformative journey that
will leave you invigorated energized and
equipped with actionable goals and a clear
vision. Yeah. Our process is designed to
bring clarity and breakthroughs to every
aspect of your marriage, and together
we'll craft plans for multiple domains of
your life and marriage, really creating a
solid framework that will help you manage
and continually renew your relationship in
the future. During this private, intensive
two day experience, you and your spouse
will have our undivided attention. As your
dedicated marriage coaches, we'll guide
you through a journey of reflection,
helping you identify where you've been,
define where you are right now, and
discover where it is you want to go
together. This experience is designed for
marriages at all stages. We know the
marriage reboot will make a huge
difference in your marriage. Yeah. So if
you want to find out more about the
marriage reboot, you can go
online@artistspousing.com
marriagecoaching. You can also message us
on instagram and we'll send you a link to
schedule a 30 minutes call with Lisa and I
to hear more about the marriage reboot.
Okay, so let's jump into our topic today.
I'm excited about it. Yeah. We want to
spend a few minutes talking about two
important aspects of a healthy marriage
relationship grace and humility. So to
start this out, I want to look at this
passage of Scripture in James, chapter
four, verse six, and it says, God opposes
the proud, but he gives grace to the know.
Pride does not set well with God. And if
you think about it, pride was the original
sin, the desire and declaration that I'm
in control. God gave Adam and Eve this
incredible garden, and he said, just don't
eat from this one tree. And the desire to
put themselves in a place where they could
be like God. So for our conversation
today, I'd like to lay a foundation around
this word, pride, which is this besetting
sin. Pride actually has two meanings. It
describes a feeling of happiness that
comes from achieving something, like when
you say, I'm so proud of my wife. That's
right. Pride in my wife. That's right.
Exactly. That's a good, great example.
When you do a good job, like, I married a
good wife, or you finish a difficult task,
you feel pride. Actually, that's not a bad
thing to feel accomplished, to feel like
you did something. Pride can also, though,
have a negative meaning, and that's really
what we're talking about today. And it
refers to exceedingly high self regard,
which can reveal itself as a persistent
need for respect or assurance that I
matter, that I'm in control. You can
easily see how pride is at the root of
conflict and disunity in a relationship.
Literally, both spouses flesh competing
for first place. And pride affects and
sabotages intimacy in marriage. That's
right. Proverbs 1310 says it says, where
there is strife, there's pride. Intimacy
is affected during prideful moments when,
first of all, we fail to admit our
shortcomings. We position ourselves as
superior over our partner. Maybe we become
defensive during arguments or assume that
we know what's best for our partner
without consulting them. But God and his
wisdom knew as men and women, that we
needed something to actually combat pride.
So he gave us the beautiful gift of
marriage. It's our discipleship plan. It
really is. Marriage is a direct assault on
our foundational spiritual weakness of
pride and the antidote of pride. Lisa is
humility. Right. And humility is having an
accurate estimate of one's worth. Author
C. S. Lewis once said that the true
humility is not thinking less of yourself,
it's actually thinking of yourself less.
And a humble person honestly discerns
their own emotions, interests, their
values, strengths and weaknesses and acts
accordingly. And there's a really cool
passage in Romans, chapter twelve, verse
three, where the apostle Paul says,
because of the privilege and authority God
has given me, I give each of you this
warning. Don't think you're better than
you really are, but be honest in your
evaluation of yourself, measuring
yourselves by the faith God has given us.
Yeah. So I love that idea that humility
doesn't mean that you are incompetent,
that you don't have value. It just means
you're thinking of yourself less. So it's
not diminishing who you are, but it's just
thinking of your spouse. And I love that.
I think it's great. In light of unpacking
these two words, pride versus humility, I
want to give some practical application if
we contrasted the two and how it maybe
plays out in marriage. For example, put me
first is pride versus put my spouse first
is humility. This is really about
preferring one another. There's research
out there that states that it takes seven
years to purge selfishness out of our
marriage. It's amazing. Think about it.
Seven years for a couple to settle in that
marriage is not self serving. Self serving
attitudes say things like, what do I get
out of this relationship? How is this
going to benefit me? What are you going to
do for me today, James? And a posture that
says, I'll treat my spouse according to
how they treat me. Right. That's self
serving. Putting our spouse ahead of
ourselves takes intentional focus. If it
takes seven years to purge this out of us,
it's going to take intentional focus.
That's right. So putting your spouse first
requires you to draw the circle around
yourself and work on and discipline
everyone in the circle. That's you. That's
me. Right. In preferring your spouse
without measuring the performance of how
your spouse is preferring you. So if I
have the circle around me and I'm working
on preferring you, my level of preferring
you isn't based on how well you're doing.
Right. Because then that shifts me back to
pride. What am I getting? But it's
focusing on how am I doing in this area?
That's good. Philippians, chapter two,
says it this way in verse three through
four, do nothing from selfish, ambition or
conceit, but in humility, count others as
more significant than yourselves. Let each
of you not look only to your own interest,
but also to the interest of others. There
we go. Preferring someone else. Another
way to contrast pride with humility. Pride
is quick to speak and slow to listen.
Versus humility is quick to listen and
slow to speak. I'm sure this is coming to
you. The verse in James, chapter one. Let
every person be quick to hear, slow to
speak, slow to anger. For the anger of man
does not produce the righteousness of God.
I think this is awfully interesting that
it's connecting. That being quick to speak
and slow to listen to anger, an emotion
that obviously isn't going to be great and
build great foundation of marriage. The
message says it this way lead with your
ears and follow up with your tongue. I
love it. I like that. In an effort to not
lead with the tongue, humility requires us
to pause, allowing the brain to inform the
mouth and the face. So you're taking a
minute as you're listening to your spouse
talk. The wisdom of this verse starts with
being quick to listen. The practice of
listening is more interested in
understanding than being understood.
That's true. I don't know if you know
this, James, but the word listen and
silent are spelled with the same letters.
So listening requires our mouths and our
minds to be silent. That's really good. I
like that. As I'm listening to you talk,
my mouth may be shut, but my mind may be
going to go, what? Am I going to respond?
He's wrong. No, my mind is silent and I'm
really taking in what you're saying. There
are so many books written on this one
aspect of communication, listening, and it
reveals so much to the verb. There's a lot
of information and data around how to do
this well. So I just want to give a few
aspects of listening I think that will
help us today. So there's three levels of
listening. Informal listening. This is
like everyday communication. We're
listening for facts, data, the weather,
football scores, ohio State's playing
tomorrow. I like that. Informal listening.
Yeah, you do like that. And you may be
able to be on your phone, actually, in
this moment. This level of listening can
be flat and emotionless, right? Active
listening. This level of listening pays
close attention. The listener shows
awareness, makes brief comments or
clarifying questions so that your spouse
knows that you're engaged and you're
getting this. This level of listening
would be challenged by multitasking
scrolling on a phone, on the computer,
tending to kids or processing mail. That
would probably distract from this level of
listening, active listening. It also
involves learning what is communicated
through posture, energy level, tone of
voice, expressed attitudes that indicate
emotion. Informal listening can be
emotionalist, like I stated, but active
listening does require emotion. Right.
Then there's this third level of
listening, which is intuitive listening.
James, I think you and I have kind of hit
this world 30 years later. We aren't 100%
at this, but we actually have intuitive
listening. So this is a high level of
concentration listening for what's behind
the words, what's behind emotion, what's
behind a certain attitude. Words are not
consistent with verbal cues. So sometimes
when I get sharp with my tone you are
intuitively listening. Are you frustrated?
Is there something I can help you with?
You're slow to respond to my irritation,
but you are mindful to listen, right?
Yeah, I think a couple of things there as
you're sharing that we were just talking
to a young guy this week about his
relationship and he synthesizes things
really fast like myself, where his soon to
be bride soon to be bride doesn't she's
more of a verbal processor like you. And
that active listening is really an
intentional piece, especially if you're a
wire like me, that you want to get to the
bottom line. Sometimes you have to be
patient. And I think that's where one of
the disciplines that we talk a lot about
is our morning minutes, where we spend
time face to face connecting every day,
whether it's for some people that may be
in the morning or at night, at dinner or
whatever. But that time of regular rhythm,
of being able to practice these r verbs.
And active listening, just like anything,
requires practice. You're not always going
to be good at it, but in humility you're
going to slow down and prefer your spouse
like me. I have to really be intentional
to be active. And I think the other thing
with the intuitive piece, I think one of
the things I've had to grow in that area
is the area of empathy to really
understand what's going on behind the
words. And so again, humility is an active
decision that we lean into being slow to
speak and quick to listen. That's right.
Yeah. I love it. This verse continues with
great wisdom stating we should be slow to
speak. A huge lesson I've learned in our
marriage journey is that every
conversation does not demand a response,
maybe at all, and it doesn't necessarily
demand a response in that moment. Again,
pacing, giving pause. I have some go to
phrases that I like to use in this moment
when I shouldn't respond. That should give
some time and space. So one of those
statements is, I hear you, James. I want
to process all that has been said and I'd
like to circle back around later. This
gives me intentional time to move away
from this conversation and process what I
need to say because I want to be slow to
speak so that I can move forward in
strength. That's good. Keep in mind that
all conversations are not necessarily a
one and done. Now, I know that's very
painful for some people listening. And
James, you're just like, can we finish
this in one conversation? And sometimes we
can't do that because we actually don't
handle it well. So they may require space
to pray and process before speaking. So
humility is demonstrated when we are slow
to speak, when we give thought to how
we're going to respond, if we should
respond. I always love giving practical
tools on the podcast because I'm like, you
can hear grace and humility and you're
like, how do you actually apply that? How
do you actually be slow to speak and quick
to listen? I have two tools that I want to
share that may help you in this area. So
the first tool is three questions you
should ask. So tool number one is three
questions. Does it need to be said? Does
it need to be said right now? And does it
need to be said by me? I love that. So
does it need to be said? You know that
Chinese proverb that says, a closed mouth
gathers no foot? I should listen to that
proverb more often. Yes. What you think
should be said may not ever need to be
said. Imagine that, Lisa. Imagine that.
Does it even need to be said to yourself
that I am? The second question, does it
need to be said right now? This is all
about timing. Are emotions high? Are you
hangry? Is there mounting tension? Do you
lack the space and time to have a good
conversation? The timing isn't right, so
it may not need to be said right now. And
then the third question, does it need to
be said by me? Right. There may be times
that I don't need to say it. If you need
to learn a lesson or if I need to learn a
lesson, we're not going this is not our
space to instruct. And so you're going to
learn it or I'm going to learn it. It just
may not be my place to say something, to
know. One of the things that is really
important to think about here, especially
if both you and your spouse are believers,
you have a relationship with God,
relationship with Jesus. You don't have to
be the Holy Spirit in your spouse's life.
Sometimes you need to be quiet and allow
the Holy Spirit to deal with your spouse.
Yes. So does it need to be said by me? No.
Maybe it needs to be dealt with by a
coworker or an employee or most
importantly, that God would speak to your
spouse about that issue. You know what?
And I love that because that our morning
minutes sometimes I tell you Holy Spirit
dealt with me on something, and you're
probably like, Praise God. He did. Yeah,
that's right. So the first tool are those
three questions. Doesn't need to be said.
Doesn't need to be said right now and
doesn't need to be said by me. Okay. So
the second tool to help us in this area of
being slow to speak and serves as a filter
for our words is the acronym Think
T-H-I-N-K. So let's just think T. Is it
true? H is it helpful? I is it inspiring?
N is it necessary? And K. Is it kind Being
slow to speak allows us to minimize the
natural tendencies to operate in the
flesh. This typical demonstration of the
flesh sometimes looks like we're
interrupting. We become defensive,
unwilling to admit wrong or our body
language is clear, we are on the struggle
bus. So when we actually put some things
in place to slow our language down and
give time to think about it, it is going
to fuel humility. That's so good. Yeah.
Gives us something to think about. Just
what I did there. Yeah, I like that. When
we talk about humility, it really begins
with a change in mindset. It is an
intentional action in our life. So it
really starts with our mindset. And I love
that. In Philippians chapter two, verse
five through eight, it actually helps us
define this mindset. It says in your
relationships with one another. So in your
relationship with your spouse says have
the same mindset as Christ Jesus. And what
was that mindset who being in the very
nature god did not consider equality with
God something to be used to his own
advantage. Rather he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant. So
he is 100% God, but he didn't consider
equality with God, but he took on a lowly
nature of a human right, made himself
nothing by taking on the nature of a
servant, being made in human likeness and
being found in the appearances of man. He
humbled himself by becoming obedient to
death, even death on the cross. So the
superpower here of humility is actually
grace. If we go back to that first passage
in James, it says god opposes the proud,
but he gives what grace to the humble. So
when we take on the mindset of humility in
our life, we change our mindset. We allow
that same mindset that Christ had of
humbleness, lowering ourselves, preferring
our spouse. God gives us grace. Think
about in the Old Testament, the beginning
of the Old Testament, the book of Genesis
at creation has this interesting passage
about man and woman. In chapter two, verse
18 through 24 it says then God said it is
not good for man to be alone and any guys
listening today can say amen to that. It's
not good for us to be alone. Right. So God
said, I'll make a helper that is right for
him. And out of the ground the Lord made
every animal of the field and every bird
of the sky. He brought them to man to find
out what he would call them. And whatever
the man called a living thing, that was
its name. Adam gave names to all the
cattle, all the birds of the sky and to
every animal in the field. But there was
no helper found that was right for Adam.
So the Lord put the man to sleep as if he
were dead. And while he was sleeping he
took one of the bones from his side and
closed up the place of the flesh. So in
verse 22 it says the Lord God made woman
from the bone which had been taken from
the man and he brought her to the man. So
verse 23 says, the man said, this is now
bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.
She will be called, whoa, man, that's
good. Caught me there because she has been
taken out of man. And then I love verse 24
says, for this reason, and we quote this a
lot in marriages and weddings and so
forth, for this reason, a man will leave
his father and mother and will be joined
to his wife, and they will become one
flesh. So why are we joined as husband and
wife? For unity, right? To put us whole
that we're complete together. And when you
look at the challenges that many marriages
face, the struggles that a lot of
marriages go through, we can see that the
enemy, Satan, tries to undermine this
mystery of one flesh, that we are one
flesh, by causing us to focus on ourselves
pride, right? On our differences. Pride
instead of oneness unity. So when we take
on the mindset of humility, when we take
on the mindset of Christ and we live with
humility, god gives us grace. And grace is
what? Unearned love and favor towards our
spouse, right? So when we make the mindset
shift, that like, hey, I'm going to prefer
my spouse. I'm going to think of myself
less, not think less of myself, but think
of myself less. I'm going to take on that
mindset. God gives us grace in that so
that we can lean into oneness. God gives
us this grace to live it out, and grace
gives us actually the power to change this
choice that we have, actually is to lean
into grace, right? Recently I was
introduced to this principle called the
law of differences. And I'm going to put
this contract in the notes or on social so
you can see it. But I think it's a really
good way of understanding how grace plays
into our relationship when we lean into
humility. How does grace play in our
relationship? So if you think about the
word choice, that we all have a choice in
coming down from the word choice, there's
two options. On one side, there's the
option of judgment. We can choose to look
at our spouse with judgment. And when we
choose to look at our spouse with
judgment, what we're actually looking at
is our spouse's weaknesses, right? The
things that are different from us, the
things that cause us angst or whatever,
we're looking through the lens of judgment
and looking at the weaknesses. When we do
that, it causes isolation. Isolation, both
physically listen, when you're feeling
judged, Lisa, there's no reason you want
to be touched by me or want to touch me,
right? So it causes physical isolation. It
also causes emotional isolation. You don't
feel safe. That emotional intimacy is not
there. And what happens is that ultimately
leads to death. Death in the relationship,
death of trust. Death of trust. Ultimately
in a marriage, it probably leads to
divorce. But it all starts with a choice,
a choice of a mindset. Right. Judgment.
Judgment on the other side, if we choose
the opposite of judgment, is value. Now,
if I begin to choose to view you through
value, what I'm choosing to view is your
strengths and the things that you bring
into the relationship that make me better.
Right? Right. And when I view value
through strengths, what that leads to is
unity, because I realize that God has
joined us together, this mystery of one
flesh. And my weaknesses are made better
because of your strengths. And my
strengths make your weaknesses better.
We're literally better together. Better
together. And we lean into unity, which
produces life in our relationship. Now, if
you go back to what we talked about in
Genesis, where God made one flesh, the
enemy all along has been trying to get us
to focus on ourselves, which chooses to
view our spouse through judgment, which,
when you think about God's plan for us, is
unity. The enemy's plan is isolation. The
enemy's plan is disconnection. And so we
have this choice to actually lean into
value. And when we do that, we're actually
allowing grace. It's not because you've
done anything great or anything. Grace is
unearned loved and favor. And I can lean
into that and value your strengths and
lean into unity. I think what Colossians,
chapter three, verse 13, says, it says
that we need to bear with each other. So I
would put it this way. We need to bear
with our spouse right. And forgive the
grievances or the differences that we may
have against one another. And why? Because
we forgive. Because the Lord forgave us.
Yeah. So really the challenge for us is,
as we think about these two words, is how
are we choosing to view our spouse through
the lens of judgment and focusing on
weaknesses? Or are we viewing them through
the lens of value and celebrating their
strengths? Or another way of saying it is,
will we choose to look at our spouse
through the lens of pride or through the
lens of humility? And the key to
understanding the grace of God in our
lives is choosing to allow grace to move
us from isolation to unity. That makes
sense. Yeah, it totally makes sense. And
it's so interesting if you think about
leading up to the day we got married, we
were so excited. So everyone listening.
Think about that. Think about how you came
into your marriage. I mean, you didn't go,
I hate this person. I want to spend my
rest of my life with them. You're like,
you're so excited. I'm so excited to be
your wife. I was so excited for the
adventure of what that looked like. And
it's so interesting that we can see such
division. And it's exactly what you're
saying. The enemy is all about dividing
the very thing that we fell in love with
each other about. And he uses whatever it
is and he starts with coming out of
alignment with what we stacked our hands
on the day we said I do. Right. And so
when we come out of alignment of that
commitment that we made before God and
man, we're actually pulling away, just
like Adam and Eve did. Pulled away from
God and came in agreement with the yeah.
So when we choose judgment, we're choosing
to agree with the enemy instead of
choosing values. So it literally is so
simple, but we're all duped by it all the
time. Yeah. And that's one of the reasons
we started this episode, talking about the
marriage reboot. One of the reasons that
the marriage reboot is so profound is
because we take two days to really build
on the strengths on common ground. So many
couples tend to look at the problems or
the differences that they have. And so
when you can get in a process like a
marriage reboot, you can actually be
guided to start understanding the
strengths, the values that you and your
spouse bring each other, and you can live
with life in really strength and vitality
in your marriage. The reboot helps a
couple practically get in alignment. We're
stacking hands on what we see in all the
domains of life. Right. And then there's
tactically. We're coming together and
going, how are we going to live into that?
So I love that because it actually puts us
in a place of strength when we are both on
the same page, we're both moving in the
same direction. This has been such a
fantastic episode. We were excited about
it. I'm glad we pivoted. We'll get back to
prayer sometime. Yeah. As we wrap up
today, we want to thank you for listening.
If you have any questions or comments
about what you heard today, we'd love to
connect with you. Email us at
hello@artispousing.com. You can also
message us on Instagram at Art espousing.
We'd also love for you to sign up on our
email list. With every episode, we send
out an email with a direct link to the
show and some news about what's happening
with Art Espousing. You can sign up with a
link in the show Notes or in Instagram
bio. On our next episode, we have some new
friends on the show, jeremy and Courtney
Rosebury. You're going to be so inspired
by their story. Jeremy was actually
parallel life after a somewhat minor back
surgery, and what God has done in their
lives is pretty amazing. We hope you'll
join us for that. We hope you have a
fantastic week and we'll see you next time
on the Artist Bowsing podcast. Until then,