087 | Imme Ermgassen | Beyond Moderation with Botivo: Building a Pleasure-First Non-Alcoholic Brand

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode, host Chris Maffeo is joined by Imme Ermgassen from Botivo, who shares insights into building a craft non-alcoholic aperitivo brand that challenges category conventions.

Through strategic positioning as a pleasure brand rather than a moderation brand, Botivo has created a unique space in the non-alcoholic category by focusing on craft credentials, hedonistic brand values, and owning specific drinking occasions.

The conversation reveals how careful brand building and trade strategy can help create new category opportunities.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:29 Guest Introduction and Initial Impressions

01:22 Deep Dive into Botivo

02:16 Brand Philosophy and Market Positioning

05:37 Challenges and Strategies in the Non-Alcoholic Market

11:35 Consumer Insights and Brand Building

19:31 Trade Relationships and Distribution

38:04 Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Imme Ermgassen

Co-Founder | Botivo Drinks

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Hey drinks builder, this is
Chris Mafael, and you're

listening to the Mafael Drinks
Podcast Today.

We are reaching listeners in
over 100 countries and I'm

grateful you're one of them.
Before we dive in, a quick

reminder that while the show is
free, our paid Sub Stack

subscribers get early access to
episodes, full transcripts, and

exclusive deep dive newsletters.
Check it out at

mafiadrinks.substack.com.
Now let's get into today's

conversation.
I'm welcome to the massaging

podcast.
Hi, thanks for having me.

It's a real honour.
I follow you on Instagram and

all the social media.
And of course, we also met on

the Kindreds group and, and the
thing that I like is really like

the clarity.
When I attended one of the

webinars that you did some time
ago, I was really impressed by

the sharpness of how you brought
to life the old thing about the

positioning, but making it very
tangible and very applicable to

the trade, which is basically
my, my old philosophy about

building brands bottom up.
So let's, let's dive in and I

want to steal, you know, like
some of your knowledge and you

know, and share with the, with
the listeners of the massaging

podcast.
So and everybody can benefit

from it if you're if you're
happy with it.

Yeah, I'd love to.
Fantastic.

You know, so let's talk a little
bit about Botivo and you know,

like just in a nutshell, what,
what it is about like just for,

for people that are not familiar
with the, with the brand and the

category.
And and then we dive in and I'll

ask you some some questions more
more in details.

Great, so Botivo is a big
sipping botanical aperitivo.

It's non alcoholic and we it's
actually made in Lanook arm on

in Hartfordshire and it takes
almost a year to make.

So it's a super craft product
and Sam, my Co founder and maker

makes it.
It's gone aged up a cider

vinegar base infused with
Rosemary, thyme, Gentry and

Wormwood orange, yes, and honey.
And so you mix it with soda

water and something to serve and
a slice of orange and it is

bloody delicious.
So that's kind of what what it

is as a product.
I think from a brand point of

view, the kind of three things I
always talk about which which

make it really different are
first of all, Bettivo is not a

moderation brand.
It's a pleasure brand.

And that's been sort of really,
really clear from day one.

And we are, we never talk about
dry jam.

We never talk about October.
We very much talk to the world

of pleasure, which I can sort of
talk about later as to why.

And the second thing is that,
you know, we're trying to bring

craft into a category that we
don't think has enough of it.

I think when you look at other
drinks brands that consumers or

trade really care about, it's
the stories around them around

the maker or the provenance or
the ingredients or the process

that makes both trade and
consumers really emotionally

engaged with those those
categories or those brands.

And I think because the non
alcoholic drinks, well, they're

so new and so many of the drinks
are, are made in fragrance

houses or in factories,
etcetera.

And there are very few stories
that people can really attach

themselves to.
And I think what that means is

that the category feels quite
cold.

You know, I think people don't
feel the same way about non

alcoholic brands the way they do
about a whiskey or a gin or a

wine.
And So what we're trying to do

at the TiVo is just, you know,
bring that craft back, back into

it.
You know, it's all handmade, no

flavouring, you know, in the
essence is a really long

process.
And that's all about creating

the best flavours, right?
It's not just for the sake of

it, it's because that's what
creates the best flavours.

And the third thing I think
which makes it different is yes,

it's primarily an alcoholic
product, but it's a very

powerful liquid because of the
process and, and actually we use

it or our customers or consumers
and trade use it in alcohol as

well.
So you know, one in four of our

customers at home will drink it
with alcohol and they'll use it

to kind of add botanical layers
to drinks, whether it's a

Negroni or popping into a
tequila and soda.

And so it's quite a different
positioning in that sense as

well because while we are
primarily a non alcoholic drink

at first, once people will start
going deeper into the brand and

building that relationship, they
start using it within the

alcoholic space as well.
So it's quite unique in that

sense.
And you know, the flavour

profile isn't a mimic, it's a
totally new flavour and and that

almost takes people a few
seconds to get their head around

when they try it because they
want to put it in a box but they

can't.
Nice.

I was also very intrigued by the
brand because, you know, like

automatically you start to try
to put into boxes and you want

to say, OK, but it's not
alcoholic, you know, but it's a

bitter now, but you know, what
is it now?

And this confirms what I usually
talk about, about building a

category, you know, before
building a brand, because like

also we tend to always think
about categories as the, the

good old categories, you know,
around vodka, gin and and so on.

And and especially when you go
out of this high alcohol or high

proof categories, then it gets
into the others, like the

liquors of everything different.
All these groups that are

beautiful and they are in a way
like the make it or break it off

cocktail culture.
But then they get relegated to I

don't know where it is, like
let's put it on the others kind

of thing.
And how do we bring it to to the

to be the protagonist of of the
story?

Yeah, I think like the kind of
the world and alcoholic drink

still feels quite quite murky
and sort of no one, you know, no

one really knows or understands
the category.

You know, there's so many
subgroups, there's so many

people trying to fit into boxes
that already exist when actually

there's a whole stream of new
products that don't fit in these

boxes.
And I think, you know, one of

the things that we did when we
first started was we actually

called the TiVo slow sipping
botanicals.

And you'll notice that that's
changed to Big Sipping Botanical

or Parativo.
And the reason why we actually

launched with the rebrand a year
and a half ago with Slaton

Botanicals initially was exactly
that challenge, which was we

didn't want to put it into a box
straight away because it was a

very new flavour experience and
product.

So we purposefully left a bit
ambiguous in the world like

Slaton and Botanicals, Like
that's like a new thing and

people didn't quite know, you
know, where to put it.

And we wanted to kind of enter
the market that way.

But then what happened over time
as your brand matures is that

you suddenly realize consumers
actually need to know a clear

occasion for when it's drunk.
And yeah, it was great as like

an initial we're different.
But then it got to the point

where you realize, you know,
having a clear occasion is more

important than proving that
you're so.

So when we checked, so we, we
changed it to big sipping

botanical parativo for I guess a
couple of reasons.

One was to give people that
occasion consumers to give trade

that occasions they knew this
isn't a parativo products and

the product was different
enough, you know, to hold to

stand on its own and not, you
know, necessarily just be an an

imperative.
But the second thing was that,

you know, we we also developed
our brand voice a lot more and

our brand personality and our
brand's very playful.

It's super craft.
It's also super playful and sort

of bold and suddenly slow
sipping didn't feel appropriate

for the direction that we had
moved in.

And actually the idea of more
and big sipping felt much more

in line with our brand.
And I guess didn't take it a

step further to think about that
occasion.

You know, it's always been on my
mind from the beginning that one

of the biggest challenges with
non alcoholic products in

particular is that no one knows
when to drink it or when it's

full.
You know, it's not just the

alcohol moment that becomes
alcoholic.

There's you, you need to own a
moment.

And so then we, you know,
developed this idea of the

yellow hour, which you might
have seen, which is it, which is

our kind of brand ownable
consumption moment.

And the yellow hour is very much
about us trying to own that a

parativo moment.
It's a play on the golden hour,

which for me is one of those
moments that everybody has an

emotional reaction to it, right?
Everyone knows we, you know,

when you talk about the golden
hour, you know, you're imagining

the lighting, you're imagining,
you know, being with your

friends, you're imagining
transitioning to that new part

of the day, you know, when
things are a bit more exciting

and a bit more, you know, on
your own terms.

And so we wanted to really own
that moment, but with a language

that us as a brand was relevant
to.

And obviously Yellow has been at
the core and forefront basically

of our brand from from day one.
That's nice.

And, and it's it's very visible,
I would say.

And like and, and honestly, I
love, I love that colour.

I know as as you saw, I show
you, I saw you.

I'll show you my new jacket that
is exactly that colour.

Yeah, you, you, you know, what I
wish no one had told me though,

is that it's a complete
nightmare from a printing like

brand consistency point of view.
And you know, every single time

we print the yellow on a
different material or in a

different context, it shows up
completely different colours.

And you know, if I'd known that
before, we probably would have

given.
Yeah, that's, that's a little

bit like when when when a brand
meets the trade, you know, and

then it's like when when a
position being on, on Indesign

meets the printer, that's the
moment of truth.

And you.
But nevertheless, I mean, it's,

it's a beautiful color and it's
very, you know, it's, it's

standing out definitely.
And it's, and whenever I see

that, you know, when I was
wearing my jacket and I was

shooting before I was really, I
was like, I was thinking about

you.
I was like, this is exactly.

But I mean, it's like it, it's,
it's exactly that color.

Yeah.
I mean, I mean, for me, like

stick ability is the most
important thing about our brand,

you know, and I think owning a
colour is a really, really

important part of that.
And particularly on a bar, right

on a back bar, you know, I think
we get photos, you know, so many

photos sent to us every day of
people seeing on the back bar

and taking a photo because it
pops and it's like yellow wax

top.
And that has always been a

massive priority day one.
Like what makes people remember

stuff?
And it's either it's sensory,

right?
It's like a smell or it's.

I mean, to be honest, like what
I like about this, let's say my

understanding of the yellow hour
is that it's also like it, it

takes on the, on the golden
hour, but then because it's, you

know, you're making a yellow
like it basically like it, it's

not really part of the day.
There's no, there's no certain

time of the day where you can
actually bring it to life now

and being, you know, known
alcoholic, then basically you

can even move it a little bit,
you know, earlier in the, in the

day.
And then people can switch on

into this yellow hour where
basically like people can say,

OK, like now it's the time and
it's not.

You don't have to wait for
sunset or golden colors to to

make it happen.
Exactly.

I think it's it's about
communicating like the vibe

without a time attached to it,
right.

I think what's interesting about
the TiVo for me is that, you

know, we don't even see it as an
alcohol alternative internally

as a business.
And the reason for that is, you

know, I got involved with Betivo
because I just tried the liquid

and it's all brand.
We redid it and just got

obsessed with it.
Like I just, I was just drinking

it literally all the time, like
lunch, dinner, you name it.

And you know, I've, I've never
engaged with an alcoholic

category before.
It was my, it was my entry point

into the category.
And I think the more we talked

to our consumers, the more we
realized that most of them have

actually entered the category
directly to pertivo because

there aren't people that are
drinking pertivo when they want

to drink.
They're just drinking pertivo

across different times because
they just think it's hilarious.

So it's quite a different
mindset from oh, I want to drink

a glass of wine.
Oh, and I can't have it.

I'm going to have a pertivo.
Actually, people are just

choosing to drink it because
it's, you know, a delicious part

of their repertoire of drinks,
You know, whatever the.

And to be honest, it reminds me
of my old days in in Carlsberg

when I was in Copenhagen.
I remember that it was the day

of the Christmas party of the
company and and somebody made me

try non alcoholic beer.
But it was like the Brooklyn

special effects.
I don't know if you ever tried

this.
And it's a it's a hoppy lag and

basically they just gave it to
me and I didn't they didn't even

tell me it was alcohol free.
And then I started drinking it

and I ended up spending all the
Christmas party drinking bed,

you know, there were, and it
became my favorite beer.

And then everybody was like, why
you not drinking?

I am drinking, you know, like
it's just like, and it was such

a rewarding experience and that
that night that I ended up

having it all night, you know,
without even noticing.

So sometimes it's also like the
mystifying this old concept

about alcohol free that, you
know, for any reason, like

people may want to reduce their
alcohol consumption and and so

on.
But how did you get to the

appetitive occasion?
Was it like, you know, what you

found more interesting or what
you have always thought?

Or was that like, let's say,
some confirmation from consumers

that that's how they were
actually drinking it out of all

the other occasion where they
were drinking it?

I.
Think so So Sam, my Co founder

who makes it very much created
the product because he loves

their their imperative
effectively.

And, you know, like TiVo came
about in quite an unusual way

because Sam has another business
called Run Run Up and they

basically they, you know, they
create the drinks from scratch

for like really hedonistic
parties.

So they did like the royal
wedding, they did like Calvin

Harris's wedding, you know, Kate
Moss, you name it.

But you know, it was all born
basically in this world.

And I think, you know, Sam
wanted to, you know, was asked

to create something from
scratch, which was unalcoholic,

but it was like really big on
flavour or natural on their

preservatives and their
flavouring, et cetera, for these

events.
And he was the one that came up

with sort of the apparent, you
know, the apparatif was, was

what he really loved within the
category.

And so, you know, when he was
playing around, it was very much

like his style of drink that,
that, that.

And then it was that occasion
very much came from the liquid

that I, I'm a big believer that
the liquid and the brand have to

go hand in hand.
You know, like, you know, you

can't develop one without the
other.

And the brand that we've created
and very much was inspired by

the liquid.
And the liquid was inspired by

Sam.
He loved the That's beautiful.

That's beautiful.
And let's talk about that for a

second because you mentioned
this means as concept or as a

type of consumer now, and I'm
everybody in listen to the

podcast knows my, my hate for
target consumers as a term as

such, not for consumers
themselves.

But did you have that kind of
consumer in mind in that moment?

Tell me more about like the,
let's say, the target consumer

and target occasion, which is
the thing that I usually talk

about.
And I like to hear what you what

you think about that and in your
first hand experience with the

brand.
Yeah, totally.

I mean, I think for me, you
know, when you build a brand,

you have to think about about
different things.

You have to think about, you
know, what's happening in

culture.
You have to think about what's

happening in the category and
how you can rub up against it.

You have to think about who your
consumer is and sort of how they

fit into that, why their
landscape and also your brand or

your liquid and what you can
authentically claim with the

type of liquid that you've
created.

And I think for us from the
beginning, it was very clear,

just I guess starting with the
liquid, that the liquids are

very kind of hedonistic liquid.
Like it's very rich, it's very

powerful.
It's, it's not about kind of

compromise or it's not altered
down.

It's very much like it snaps you
around the face.

And when we think about the
brand and how it came from that

from day one, as I mentioned,
you know, we're not a moderation

brand.
We're a pleasure brand, right?

And a pleasure brand, you know,
means that you're adding these

people experiences, you're
decadent, you're opulent, you

know, you're, you're full of
like more stuff.

And for us, the consumer very
much came out of that because I

think when most narcotic drinks,
you know, when they're rooted in

moderation, the tendency is to
go for consumers that do

moderate.
So it could be people that are

really into health and
well-being or people, you know,

who are, are so, so curious, or
people who are just moderating

their behaviours because that's
where they're at.

And I think where we're slightly
different is that our consumer

is the opposite, our consumer,
our pleasure seekers, because

the liquid's really pleasurable.
You know, the world where it was

born was really hedonistic.
And that's the brand that we

wanted to create.
So when we think about our

consume, I totally agree with
you.

Like we don't do like
segmentation of so and so 3035

and loves cooking and blah,
blah.

Or she's 40 and has two kids and
lives in the suburbs.

You know, that stuff for me is,
is really dated.

And it also assumes that people
of different age groups are

really different from each
other.

What I believe is that there's a
universal mindset in really

great brands that holds people
together.

And in our situation it was
about pleasure seekers, right?

So our consumer, it's a pleasure
seeking consumer.

They love the way food and
drinks are made.

They're foodies, they love
stories of provenance, they love

craft products, they love
discerning pace profiles.

They're curious about travelling
in the world because they're

hedonistic in terms of not
drinking and drugs.

But I'm talking about like
hedonistic about life.

Like they want to live life to
the full.

And that's the mindset that the
brand talks to, which connects

to people.
And that for me, it's not about

an age or a life stage.
It's it's about you know how you

feel and no.
I mean, I really, I really love

to hear this.
Well, because you're confirming

what I'm saying.
No, no, no, no, no.

But really, because it's very
interesting.

I mean, I'm having a lot of
debates about this, like with,

you know, with other guests or
we're, you know, like in general

with with people.
And it's very difficult to

explain it somehow sometimes.
No, because it's like, yeah, but

you know, there's still
consumers.

As I get that is still consumer,
but it's like they're looking

for a certain type of thing
rather than they are a certain

box, you know, like, and you can
put them in a in a box and, you

know, you could have a certain
type of, you know, manifestation

of that, let's say hedonism, you
know, maybe could be in a castle

in a Manor house in the British
countryside, or it could be in

a, you know, in a village in a
around the bonfire.

But it's still hedonism.
It's just that, you know, like

you approach two different type
of people and why do you

communicate only for a certain
group while actually the whole

thing is about, I mean, in your
case had the new zone rather

than anything else, you know, to
build on this, like, how do you

bring this to life?
Because I mean, you're you know,

I follow your Instagram and
LinkedIn and someone always get

this yellow pictures.
And then I said, Oh yeah, you

see much coming, but how does
that comes to life in terms of

bring in that position into
social media creating demand,

but also to the trade then in
into into understanding where to

to sell.
So I think I guess the the two

different two different
questions.

I think like, again, that kind
of goes back to sort of the

brand world and then the product
itself.

I think, you know, with trade,
the, the liquid is super rich

and like thick and flavourful.
You don't need much of it.

You know, there's 20 drinks in a
bottle or you just put a little

bit in and that and that, that
vibe, the brand and that sort of

hedonism comes to your liquid
from the brand world that we

created.
You know, we if you've been on

the Instagram, it's obviously
the yellow, which is very

vibrant and, and, you know, has
that that part of things, but.

We worked really closely to
build 24 characters, which are,

are really, really central to
this world.

They're, they're written or
they're, they're drawn by this

amazing artist who's Bulgarian,
who lives in Barcelona, actually

called Rosalina Bekova.
And I've always loved her art

because she creates these
amazing banquet scenes.

And there are always loads of
different types of characters

and they've just got huge
personality to them.

And whenever you see the
banquet, you always think, oh

God, I wish I was at that party.
But it's got a very hedonistic

vibe to it, but also very
artisanal because it's all hand

drawn, which is what our brand's
all about.

It's super craft, but also super
hedonistic.

And so we worked, I worked
really closely with Roz to bring

this world to life.
And part of that was about also

ensuring that it felt really
decadent and really abundant.

And that's not just about the
vibe.

It's also about the characters,
you know, you know, I, I, I talk

about it a lot because, you
know, it's 2024.

We're a london-based brand and I
just think it's really important

to bring all different types of
characters to life.

So we've got different sexes,
different genders, different

races, different sizes,
different ages, all in that

brand world and everyone's
together having an amazing time.

And there's this every time you
look at the at that, all these,

all these illustrations, you
know, to something new because

it's, it's, you're kind of
discovering something, which is

like a beautiful surprise.
So for me, there's sort of that

brand world is what gives people
the vibe and what connects with

people and and gives it that.
That's a pleasure seeking

hedonistic vibe, but the liquid
reflects that because it is so

powerful and unexpectedly so.
So basically in that sense,

everybody kind of feels welcome
because they can see a sort of a

representation of themselves in.
There's high chances that you

are one of those 2024 people in
a in a way.

Exactly the idea, the proof was
like everyone used to see

themselves as all one of their
friends, you know, in it.

And that's exactly it.
Like welcoming us is one of our

brand values.
You know, I think, you know,

often brands feel quite
exclusive in the category or

feel quite stripped back.
And, and actually the idea is

that we talk, we we call it,
everybody gets a glass kind of

internally.
So it's this sort of world of,

you know, everyone gets a glass
of the TV, which, yeah, it's

obviously a premium product, but
the idea is that everyone should

be able to look at it and, and
feel like they're nice.

And I remember.
The LinkedIn post that you

posted some time ago about
consumers now that you were

surprised like people had in
mind of what the boot evil type

of person was and in terms of
drinking and then what he

actually was.
And the beauty of having an

e-commerce is that you can
actually see exactly who's

buying it.
And it was drinking now.

So was that confirming your idea
that actually is all sort of

people rather than a specific
target consumer?

Exactly.
I think when people see our

brand and it feels very
usefully, you know, it's quite a

youthful spirit.
I think people assume, you know,

our main consumer is 28 to 14 or
30 to 14.

You know, it's sort of quite
young.

And actually, I think at least
who's buying our bottles are

73%, 45 plus.
If you look at the ones that are

buying and drinking in the home,
when we talk to our stockists,

people, much younger people are
drinking it in bars and in

restaurants.
But what that tells me is that

idea that we're talking about
around, you know, communicating

a mindset is resonating because
it's got the whole spectrum of

people.
Yes, young people probably

aren't drinking in the home
because the price point's

prohibitive.
And that's a format challenge,

which we need to, you know,
which we were thinking about for

our, our next innovations.
But, but the point is that, you

know, even if you behave with
that youthful spirit, people who

are 65 are resonating with it as
well.

And, and you know, and it cuts
across all these different kinds

of people.
And so I think that that just

kind of reiterated to me that
people are resonating with the

brand of old ages and older ones
that people don't.

That's very interesting.
Because I mean, what you are

bringing to the story now, it's
also like this kind of like

segmentation on on channels, not
on let's say occasions that

maybe, you know, some people can
get it more like on a home

consumption occasion.
And probably they are a little

bit older in that sense.
Because maybe they're having

like, I don't know, like a
proper dinner rather than like a

20 year old and inmates at home.
While maybe people our age like

they would, you're like a proper
dinner, then they want to have

something special for that kind
of occasion.

While when people go out, maybe
it's more like general.

But then you know, what
stockiest and people are telling

you is that it's, it's actually
like a little bit younger now.

So it's, it's very interesting
this thing that there's a

concept that I'm bringing up
lately that is I, I call it the

bottom up trade and the top down
trade rather than on and off in

terms of brand building on a
channel now.

So then we're basically like
bottle shops and even Waitrose,

which is like a supermarket
chain, but it has some cues from

from the caddies and from a
bottle shop rather than like a

proper supermarket chain.
And and that's where you

actually build the brand and you
communicate the brand and that

consumption occasion.
It's interesting to see the bars

and the bottle shops in this
case having as much of A role in

building a brand and building a
category.

But Evo Yeah, but.
Evo is quite, it's quite a hand

sell initially.
So I think when you're trying to

do something really different in
the category and you're and you

and you can't easily put the
products in a in a box that

building the brand with the
bottle shops, building it with

the bartenders, building it with
the trade is so, so important

because they're the ones that
are serving it perfectly.

They're the ones that are
telling the story to the

customer about it.
And we've always had a massive

push pull strategy from the
beginning where we know that

people are discovering our
products in like prestige

restaurants or our products in
prestige restaurants and then

they're going online and buying
it.

And I kind of bang on about this
a lot.

But I think one of the things
that I did on purpose at the

beginning was for our signature
service, Petivo and soda, not

Petivo Spritz, which which we
actually changed it from, but

Petivo and soda.
And the reason was is that I

knew people were discovering in
restaurants and then they were

going, that's delicious.
But if it was a spritz, they had

no idea what was in it.
And so they didn't know what

bettivo was or what the other
stuff was.

But if it was bettivo and soda,
then they'd go, Oh my gosh, is

this just bettivo?
And like sparkly water, I can

recreate this at home.
And they'd go and they'd buy it

on their phones in the
restaurant.

And you'd see that a lot in our
reviews.

And then they'd recreate the
experience at home.

So I think like allowing that
ability to discover something in

the trade, but then replicate
that in the home is a really

important part of our strategy.
I think often with non alcoholic

drinks there's so many
ingredients in the drinks that

people are drinking or the
cocktails or mocktails, whatever

you want to call them in trade,
that yes, it might be delicious

in a restaurant, but no one
knows what to do with that at

home and especially.
In this, let's say high end

cocktail bars, there is always
this this issue because there's

a lot of free batching and all
this kind of like very

sophisticated lacto Fermentsuri
then wrote about and all these

kind of things.
And that's the success of many

brands.
It's how easy it is to replicate

it at home and give a super
simple idea to someone when

they're having people over.
And especially when people don't

want to, don't want to drink
alcohol, it's like.

Simplicity of the serve saying
again and again and again is, is

absolutely is key.
You know, consumers are all

about simplicity.
So yeah, that's, that's sort of

betiven soda, Cuban soda.
I think also, you know, one of

the reasons why betiven soda is
so important to us is because

someone said really early on to
me, when I when I said that, you

know, the serve, the signature
serve was soda, they said, oh,

you must be really proud of your
liquid.

You're not, you're not hiding
behind tonic.

And I thought, God, that's
really, that's a really smart

way of putting it.
They were like boldest brands.

They're the most confident about
the taste of their liquids.

Just just match it with but more
soda.

They don't need the other stuff.
And and that for me always

restocked with me.
And I wanted to sort of bring

that into our strategy.
How?

Let's say difficult was the the
selling to this kind of venues

when when you try to put the
foot in the door and you know,

and and and sell the first
bottle so like.

So before I came on, we're doing
a couple 100 bottles a month as

a side kind of project that Sam
was doing.

But the liquid was so good in
itself, even when he had just

had a website, you know, selling
it like the River Cafe had

picked up because it was so
delicious.

So that was the first thing I
had a massive advantage of the

liquid.
It's just so unique and

delicious that the most iconic
restaurant in the UK had taken

it on.
So when I joined and we did the

rebrand, that was already one
bit of credibility that we had

to to go out to the restaurants
with.

I think the key thing was with
non alcoholic drinks is that

normally in drinks, the first
stage is awareness.

So it's going out and telling
people about your brand and

product and getting people, you
know, tasting it.

But in non alcoholic drinks, to
your point around convincing

people, the challenge is
actually, but like way before

that, which is how do you even
get people not just shutting

the, you know, the door in your
face because there's a whole

credibility issue around the
category.

And you know, people have been
so burnt in the past by products

when they were more in their
infancy And so convincing trade

in particular, but also
consumers to try something that

is new and delicious and
different.

It's very it was a massive,
massive challenge.

You know, it's very difficult to
get people to to say yes.

So our approach was to really
focus on that credibility phase

before awareness, and it was all
about going out to the

tastemakers.
So going out to the people who

would never lie about something
being delicious.

They're not influences of
flogging loads of products and

you're paying stuff on online
for them to say nice things and

it says hashtag ad.
But going out to the Alice

Lachelle's who, you know, she
never lies about what she thinks

and she's such a tastemaker in
the category, Grace Dent

mentioned that she really loved
it.

And the Berry brothers via Rob
Whitehead, you know, said it, it

completely transformed his
opinion.

The parateats and non alcoholic
parateats.

Kevin Armstrong, the Satan's
Whiskers owner like Las Petivo.

And so once we had these proof
points of these people who

everyone knew would only say it
was delicious if it was

delicious, then we took those
proof points out more and more,

knocked no, used it for trade
and for tastings, but also for

consumers on the social ads, et
cetera, as a proof point that,

yes, this is actually delicious.
And if you have been burnt in

the past, give this a go.
So once you've got the River

Cafe, then you can go to the
next prestige restaurant and

say, oh, the River Cafe stocks
us.

And then you can go to the third
one and say the River Cafe plus

Maison Francois stocked me.
And then you can say the next

one, the Maison Francois River
Cafe plus the next one stocked

me.
And the more, you know, the more

prestige places you go to and
the more you get them under your

belt, the more you can use it to
sell it into other prestige

places because no one wants to
take the risk first, right?

Like restaurants want to want
the evidence to be there that

it's, it's great tasting and
that it's going to sell before

they take on the risk
themselves.

And you know, using those
prestige restaurants as proof

points is really absolutely.
So you're saying that you're

building a bottom up?
Some might.

Say red 50 price building
bottom.

Up.
Just kidding.

I think that it's actually like
any brand need to create that

demand that comes, let's say
let's call it like together with

awareness or before awareness.
I'm also a little bit allergic

to the word awareness in as such
figures.

Then in in the end, if you don't
convert it into a, an actual

demand from someone that wants
to buy it and wants to stock it

and wants to sell it, then it
becomes like a, it's a nice

reach on a, on an Instagram
page.

And I think.
Just just the next stage is in

some ways the most important.
So obviously getting into places

is really difficult, but then
staying in places is even more

difficult.
And so, you know, then it's

about how do we make sure that
our rate of sale is high?

How do we make sure it feels
visible on the menu?

And how do we make sure that it
sounds tasty and, but also get

our brand name in because we
want people to know that it's,

it's our brand.
And and that's sort of where the

hard work really begins is
building those relationships

with these restaurants and
ensuring that, you know, they're

selling in in the right way and
talking about it the right way

to their customers.
I was I.

Was actually going to say when
you were mentioned getting from

the first to the second to the
third is like, how do you ensure

that you don't lose the first
one when you got the third one?

You know, like that you maintain
that, that net increase of

distribution, true rotation,
which goes this is like one of

the things that I'm advocating
the most like on on ensuring

that.
And what I like listening to

you, what I, what I like about
Plato is that also you can do,

it's easy to, to make it a
category ingredient brand name.

You know, it makes me think of
Campari, for example, that

whenever you see like menus and
brands on the menus, like

there's some, some outlets that
don't want to mention any brand

name, but they can't find a name
for Campari.

So they, they put it.
So they put whatever craft

vodka, Campari and whatever they
don't want to mention the vodka

name, but then they cannot find
an alternative for Campari and

they don't want to say bitter as
such.

And then they just put Campari
in it now.

And then all of a sudden, all of
a sudden, like I had this, this

discussion sometimes when I'm
selling brands and I go to the

bars, like you have some brand
names.

No, I don't have brand names.
And look at this, you've got

Campati there.
No, but that's not a brand name.

It's very funny when you
actually managed to create

something that it is a brand
name, but actually it represents

the category and it's on it's
own and you can actually own

that category for real.
I.

Mean, I think to add to that,
what we've also realized is that

when it's a prestige accounts,
when it's like the mountains,

the brats, the St.
John's, etcetera, having Rativa

and soda, you know, works really
well.

We know that's our consumer, the
leading edge early adopters.

But actually then when you go
into and it's quite interesting

for when you're building brands,
is that when you go to those

bigger, more mainstream groups
where maybe the the people who

eat that aren't quite early
adopters or sort of leading edge

types.
Actually, when you lead with the

brand name and not with a
flavour, the rate of shell is

not as high.
So it's quite interesting that

you have to almost think about
the way that your drink is

presented on different menus in
order to talk to the consumer of

that particular type of place.
So someone who drinks in the

mountain loves Vegeta and soda,
but someone who goes to Oaxaca,

for example, will want
grapefruit Paloma cooler, you

know, like it's and the brand
name becomes slightly less

important in that environment.
That's a great point.

That you raise an, an action
that, that you have to blend in

with what that kind of customer
as a traded customer wants.

And to that extent it doesn't
really matter because then who's

interested?
Then they may ask you, OK, what,

what is it?
And that is how it's believable,

but then you don't put it and
and there's a lot of and this is

like for a longer discussion
because it's, it's a very

interesting topic on the role of
brand.

And you know, like that how to
explain how to make a cocktail

menu that actually drives saves
because people actually

understand what it is.
It's.

Not clear.
I feel like in prestige accounts

having a brand name is so
important, but in volume account

there's more mainstream.
Volume accounts isn't

necessarily of the the ideals
it's there as well, but actually

what consumers want is to get a
real sense of a flavour and what

experience they're going to get.
And the more sensory it is, the

better it sells.
I was.

Discussing this with, with Brett
Crompton from sessional spirits

and we, we were talking about
like reporters, for example,

even like on stating ABV next to
a cocktail.

Now, because you may I, I can
imagine now I can envision like

a Negroni made with both evil.
Then all of a sudden, like the

ABV drops dramatically and then
all of a sudden you are you're

competing with other categories
that you may automatically think

a lighter.
But actually you could get in

people that want to have a lower
ABV type of cocktail.

And then they can have two or
three that evening rather than

having, I don't know, 3 glasses
of wine that would actually end

up being even higher.
So it's very interesting how you

can play on many different
things.

And especially, I mean, on the
example of both, even soda, of

course, it's like 00 percent,
which is, which is even more

welcoming for everybody, like
entering that restaurant or that

kind of occasion.
But then you can build on many

different layers and bartenders
and trade can use it in so many

different ways.
But but I like what you were

saying at the Beat.
We went back to the beginning

about this single mindedly
talking about ability law.

I'll always explain to people,
it's not that you don't use it

anywhere else.
You know, it's just that you

want to own a moment in
consumers mind and customers

mind so that they know when to
take that bottle off the shelf.

It doesn't mean that you cannot
use it however you like.

And when you know, when they're
really bought into a brand and

you know they're drinking all
the time, then you can say to

them, oh, here are these
different ways you can use it,

but that comes later.
You don't want to confuse them

until it's what your primary
moment and occasion is.

And then you can bring it in
later and say, by the way,

here's still a cool way to can.
Absolutely.

So I'm aware of your time and I
think it's a good, it's a good

way to to wrap this up.
We'll definitely speak more in

the future.
I think I will, I will.

I would like to have you on
again, like to dive more deeply

into into the converting demand
and to the sustaining demand

kind of spectrum of the building
bottom up.

But let us know how can people
reach out to you find you find

placebo and reach out.
Yeah, well.

We are, so we are.
Well, it's January, so we're

launching a Waitrose, also
Majestic and also Whole Foods.

We're already in and our
websites, which obviously is my

preferred.
Thanks for everyone to fight

because then we get to talk to
you directly.

It is btivodrinks.com.
Fantastic.

So Emir, thank you very much for
for your time and for your

knowledge and and sharing it
with, you know, fellow drinks

builders like like you and I and
see you soon.

Thank you.
For having me.

That's a wrap on today's
episode.

If this insights helps you, take
a moment to leave us a quick

review.
It really helps other drinks

builders find the show.
And Speaking of sharing, pass

this insights along to another
drinks builder who needs to hear

this when I get next week's
episode.

Right now, head over to
mafiadrinks.substock.com, where

paid subscribers get episodes a
week early.

Last full Transcrit and Dee dive
analysis.

Until next time, remember that
brands are built bottom U.