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Are you a business owner? Or are you on the verge of taking that side hustle to the next level? Or curious about the world of entrepreneurship? Join Vivian Kvam, Co-Owner of Tandem Works, each week for a behind-the-scenes at small businesses and what it takes to succeed.
Each episode is full of inspiration, education, tips, and great conversation with people like you, people who are figuring it out. Take your business to the next level with insight from expert guests in business, leadership, and marketing.
00:00:00 - Speaker A
Welcome to Riding Tande, a podcast about building businesses leadership and creating positive impact for our communities. I'm your host, Vivian Kvam, and I invite you to ride Tandem Works with me as I have candid conversations with inspiring business owners, leaders, and experts who are building on their dreams and creating impact. Get ready to be encouraged and learn practical tactics to help us build successful businesses, become incredible leaders, and have positive ripple effects. Let's go. Well, welcome back to this episode of Tandem Works Works. Today's topic I know is going to be so helpful for so many people because I keep hearing from so many of you that you want to talk about hiring, HR workforce, all of these things. And so our team has been looking for some experts and we have found them and they are here to talk with us today. So I have Bryn Reed and Lynnn Owen on the podcast today and they are representing Haram, which serves the Omaha and the greater Omaha area through HR services, just helping with companies, figuring this whole puzzle out. And I know it can feel scary and confusing when you're not in the HR world. And so Haram is here to help with those types of questions and issues that come up for all kinds of companies of all sizes. And so I'm going to let Bryn and Lynnn introduce themselves and then just talk a little bit about what Haram is. And then we're going to dive into all of the burning questions that people have and just have a great conversation that I hope will help guide all of you listeners in just making good hiring choices, thinking ahead, getting prepared for when you need to bring on somebody in HR. But what do you need to be thinking about when you're going through that whole process of bringing on a brand new awesome teammate to your team? So welcome. Glad to have you. Lynnn and Bryn, do you guys want to just introduce yourselves first? Just a little bit about you. And then Lynnn, maybe you want to fill us in a little bit on Haram. And then Lynn, you can fill in anything that we're leaving out. Sound good?
00:02:04 - Speaker B
Yeah.
00:02:05 - Speaker C
Perfect.
00:02:05 - Speaker A
Awesome.
00:02:06 - Speaker C
So I'll start. I'm Lynnn Owen and I am the current president of the board of Haram and in my second year. So we have two year terms. And prior to president, I was vice president. And prior to that, I've been volunteering with Haram in the capacity of Government Affairs Committee, which we'll talk through what Haram offers. But we have multiple committees that do different program planning and membership engagement and all that good stuff. Haram is a membership based organization. We have just under 800 members, kind of ebbs and flows. We've had as many as 1000 members. But yeah, so we provide really kind of education, networking opportunities, just that network to build your HR community so you're not trying to figure things out alone. And Haram has been around for 75 years. So we're very deeply rooted in the Omaha and Omaha Metro community, and it's a volunteer position. The board is a volunteer. And in my day job, I am director of HR at Unity Med. So we do healthcare staffing based in Omaha and we're a younger company, so we've only been around for a couple years. So I kind of understand those new company growing pains that you have sometimes and recruiting from that standpoint. So excited to talk through some of that today.
00:03:30 - Speaker A
That's awesome because as I think about when people are especially first starting a business, I feel like the whole hiring and world of HR is talked about basically not at all. It's like, well, we need to get our financials together and what's our offering and how's our marketing and all those things. So I'm excited to hear that perspective coming from a younger company with your expertise. I did want to point out real quick because I had to look it up. I don't know much about Haram, so I'm excited to learn too. But it stands for human resource association of the Midlands. And so just to level set for everyone, I had to look it up as so yeah. All right, tell us about yourself.
00:04:12 - Speaker B
Okay, so my name is Bryn Reed. I am the President elect for Haram. I'll be honest, I kind of have followed in Lynnn's shadow, which has been awesome, and have helped her along the way. So I started in government affairs when volunteering there, when I moved back to Omaha and had the opportunity to really dive in and get to know more about Haram and just love the service that they provide because it's not just for I know we talk a lot about the HR people, but it's do you work with people? People support, and so we support that through our chapter programs that we do every I think it's the second Tuesday day of the month over lunch. Come and eat with us and learn something new. I know even as an HR professional, I walk away going, oh crap, I got to get that done. So it's just those good nudges and reminders because we can't do it all, even somebody that's in their profession. So that's my shameless plug. If you want to come and hang out with us on Tuesday and get food and learn about either yourself or development or legal pieces. And we have diversity aspects of that for us to learn from. So just everything within the HR profession we try to touch on and try to give those resources. We also do a lot of partnerships, so partnerships across the board that we work with as well to aim for either the larger companies or those smaller companies. I know we partner and do an HR of one. And so that's for the HR person or the person trying to figure it out. So come and hang out with us there. But as Lynnn said, it is a volunteer role, and we do have our own kind of day jobs, and my day job is an HR director at Live on Nebraska. It is a much older organization. We've been established for several years. However, the growth that they have had has really expanded over the last three years. So we've gone from they always refer to themselves as, like, 25 people. I'm like, you can't do that anymore. So we've reached over 105 employees. We're on our yeah, you're past 25 now. We are past it, but they still kind of refer to it. And there are some definite lines within HR. So if you have a team of 1525 and 50 people, those are some pretty decent breaking points of making sure of. Do you have your stuff in place and in order? So that's my key for you. I'll kind of stop there, but that's something that as a business owner, that would make you go, oh, heavens, I'm getting close to that number. Apparently there's stuff out there I need to pay attention to, and I do.
00:07:05 - Speaker A
Want to talk more in depth about that, like what some of those milestones are so that people can be thinking about it. I really love being able to plan ahead a little bit. I know some people are a little more like fly by the seat of your pants and have certainly talked with business owners who grew faster than they thought they were going to, who have taken on whole departments, basically. Overnight and then other people who've been party of one for 15 years and then decided, okay, I'm going to bring on an employee and bring on so it can be slow growth too. But I always think it's good to kind of have knowledge in your pocket so that when you're ready or it gets sprung on you, you at least have some vocabulary. So that's what I'm hoping for today, that we can give people some vocabulary, plant some seeds, get them thinking about what questions even to ask. That's where I get hung up a lot as a business owner is I know something's out there, but I don't even know I don't have the vocabulary to ask it. And HR is definitely one of those areas that I'm like, I know there's stuff out there I should probably know. I'm just not sure even what to ask about it. So with that mind, let's just level set on what falls under HR. What are we even talking about? Because people throw around HR this, HR that, HR, and it's like, oh, those are the people who hire people. What are we talking about here? Especially as we think about maybe like a business owner and they feel like they're wearing this hat. What hat are they wearing?
00:08:33 - Speaker C
I mean, I think HR wears so many hats, feels like everything kind of just falls across our desk. Certainly there's the big pieces of the hiring firing benefits and all the transactional pieces of HR. And there's just so much more than that. And there's a lot behind the scenes, which is why we talk about when you get to a certain employee standpoint, you have to remember what laws you have to abide by and the proper way to handle things. And they always say HR in the alphabet soup and understanding what FMLA means and what Ada means and what oh, my gosh, FLSA means. I can't even say. All, though, and just making sure that you're in line with all of those. It's it's a lot that HR handles.
00:09:22 - Speaker B
I think you have two pieces of that too. You can have an HR side that's very administrative to where they support you on the administrative side, making sure you get your FMLA paperwork done, making sure that we hire people correctly, or you can have somebody that's on that strategic side that sits next to you that that's to your right hand person. They are the people's, people that keep the people back in mind. And so it depends on how the company is structured. So you can very well put on HR whatever you would like to. I know that HR, when I was growing up in my career, because I've been in it for a few minutes, that event planning was a part of that sometimes. And I was like, okay, I'm not the event planner.
00:10:04 - Speaker C
Yeah, we don't plan the pizza party.
00:10:06 - Speaker B
I don't plan the pizza party.
00:10:07 - Speaker A
It's like that culture piece.
00:10:09 - Speaker B
Yes.
00:10:09 - Speaker A
Which is huge. I mean, everybody's talking about, I mean, people have culture officers and everything.
00:10:15 - Speaker B
But again, it's your size, right? So in my size, in my organization, we have our diversity pieces within HR, but we know as we continue to grow, that's going to be a role in the future that is going to have a life of its own. And so as you're growing HR, know that what you're bringing in or the person doing that role, that at some point it may be past the administration paperwork, keep my button order kind of space, as opposed to that person can really be your kind of your temperature gauge. How are we control? How is our culture? What do we need to do? What do we need to consider? What part of our benefits are we lacking? Because our team is dealing with these type of things going on either in the mental health world or in the medical space. Do we have a lot of pregnancies going on and family stuff? So do our benefits support that? It's really kind of your pulse on your organization.
00:11:16 - Speaker A
Okay, so why don't we start with then breaking down these milestones? I can already hear people listening. Can I hear people listening?
00:11:26 - Speaker B
Yeah, I'm sure you can.
00:11:27 - Speaker A
I can already hear people listening and going, oh, my gosh, what have I already dropped the ball on? What are those you were mentioning there's a ten employee, 25 employee. Would you break that down a little bit of like, what are some of those key milestones? What does that look like?
00:11:46 - Speaker B
All right, so I said something I didn't come prepared for. So hold on 1 second. There's a lot to that question. Didn't come prepared in the sense that I want to give you the right stuff. However, there are pieces within some of the laws, such as and so, Lynnn, jump in with, I'm totally going rogue with your FLSA. So how you classify positions, how you pay them, FMLA, that is a big one as well, of you're required to provide time off and leave. That's the 50 employee mark. However, it's how you treat people while they're out. Even though you may not require all the laws, it's how do you support people in that position? There are certain states that you're in. Doesn't matter how many employees you have, you can have zero to one to 100 of posting your jobs. In the pay transparency aspect of it, there are what else am I leaving out? Lynn I know there's multitude of lists.
00:12:53 - Speaker C
So if we're going to go statewide, there are states that have sick leave that if you don't offer sick leave, states mandate that you do. Same with FMLA Federal Leave. Understanding that. But different states have paid family leave as well, and understanding that, make sure you're administrating that correctly.
00:13:13 - Speaker B
So I think a big way is to maybe we can work on I don't know how your podcast works, like, if we can upload a hey, here's a quick guide because I know through Haram and in partnership with Sherm, they actually have a quick guide of do you have this many people? And here are the laws that are associated with them.
00:13:35 - Speaker A
That's perfect. And yeah, we can absolutely link resources down in the show notes. So I think that would be great is we'll get a hold of that and then we'll link it down in the show notes just to help people get a guide. But what I'm hearing is there's a lot to think about and there's probably people they can reach out to. And I have a feeling Haram is a piece of that. So talk to me a little bit about that as people are, hmm, I wonder if I'm hitting that milestone or FM, what what are the resources people can go to to start figuring some of this out or NAB somebody to help walk next to them?
00:14:11 - Speaker C
Yeah, so we keep talking about Haram being HR professionals, but certainly we have members who HR is just a part of their function because they're a smaller organization. They're the office manager, they're the business owner that's also doing the HR components. So that's where becoming a member of Haram, we have monthly committee meetings, and we had talked about the Government Affairs Committee, just that is keeping up with the changing legislature and keeping up with the compliance piece. And so coming monthly asking those questions of, hey, I've got this employee that's doing this. I don't know how I should handle it, should I handle it this way or that way? Because there are certainly pieces that you know are black and white you have to follow and then there's other pieces that's a little bit gray of yes, you can do that, but have you taken this approach? So those are the resources, being able to come and attend those meetings and meet with other people who might be because someone's experiencing that same thing.
00:15:11 - Speaker A
Yeah, and that's huge. And I'm glad you pointed that out that you don't have to be an HR professional to join Haram. You can be a member even if you're a business owner or it's just a hat that you have found yourself wearing within your business, which is huge. That's one of the things, and we talk about it a ton on this podcast is one of the best skills you can have as a business owner is to just know when to ask the question and when to find somebody. And I think what you're illustrating really well here is like, you can't be an expert on all the things. You guys are experts on all the things and you go to these and you still pick up new things every day. And that's just so important to point out. Like, you do not need to be an HR expert to run a business.
00:15:55 - Speaker B
Absolutely. It's just knowing where to find your tools and how to use them. So I was just quickly cheating and looking at our program guide of things that we offer as an organization to anyone in these roles or who are just interested of knowing more. And it really goes back to networking. So Lynnn was talking about going to our meetings and it's that network piece. I think I get the most value out of those 07:30 A.m. Calls at the very end where we are able to talk about what's impacting you if it's on the government affairs side, on the diversity side, on any of the program side of what we can bring in because people are struggling with. We also do like a First Fridays, it's about networking and it's just sitting down, having lunch and asking some of those questions, asking for those resources, listening to the person next to you ask because they're asking the right question. You didn't even know to ask the question right?
00:16:57 - Speaker A
Like that's how so smart.
00:16:58 - Speaker B
Sometimes we get to I was smiling that someone hadn't been at a meeting for a couple of days and said, I don't even know what you guys are talking about. And we all just started sending her resources of like, note there's this article, this is how you handle it here. This is what this is going on. And she's like, oh my gosh, clearly missed that one. That one was absolutely in my boat. So it's just that understanding that we have all been there, we're all still kind of searching and we just go back to our resources and have just a plethora of tools that we can share with you. And so HR is just knowing where to look, right? It's just knowing that it's kind of out there and we have a place to look.
00:17:42 - Speaker A
I love that. So one of the big things everyone's talking about is hiring and not being able to hire and trying to find people. You're like, oh yes, we know this is our day to day when people are thinking through that process. And we were talking a little bit before the podcast. There's kind of a process. I mean, you have your job creation, figuring out what the job enroll is going to be and then posting that, and then you have them come in for an interview and then there's all these things. I was thinking if we just kind of walk through the process and if you would just give us a couple of pointers along the way, I know we can't unpack everything about this because as we just said, there's so much to know. But I think just a couple of pointers along the way would be super helpful. I know I'm excited to learn more about it. So I know one of the first things is, well, you've got to figure out what is the job like? You have this job creation piece. And so a couple of things you guys had mentioned beforehand was just, like, thinking about who you're looking for and what barriers there might be and what is that role going to look like? What are a couple of things that you would encourage people to think about when they're just getting started with, we're going to hire we need to make a job. We need to create the actual job.
00:18:54 - Speaker C
So I think sitting down and really looking at what are the essential functions and what are the must haves, what are the nice to haves, and keeping in perspective as you're talking with candidates and certainly having the right background is important as you're reviewing candidates, but also just looking at aptitude people have. And when you're looking at hiring for maybe a younger company, a newer company, just starting out, being transparent with what that job looks like in that these are the essential pieces, but things are going to change. And it's kind of like that other duties as a sign, but really honing in on what that could look like for candidates. When you're talking a newer, younger company that you might be taking, I don't know, cleaning the break room or taking out the trash or something because you're a small company and you got to wear multiple hats and finding people like a utility player. And so making sure that I think when you're showcasing a job and putting that together, being clear on that piece of it, but then talking with the hiring manager of, okay, maybe you're adding to the team of who's been successful. What background does that look like? And putting that together, looking at the comp piece and maintaining equity within the team and looking at the market analysis. And there's different tools for that to make sure you're marketing your job correctly from a compensation standpoint, what else am.
00:20:31 - Speaker B
I chat with? I'm going to throw her under the bus. One of my good friends, and she is a small business owner, and she met someone and she was so excited, and she's like, I just want to hire them and bring them on. And I was like, great. Doing what? Doing what? We meet great, amazing humans all the time, but what are they doing? And so it goes back to that job creation of what do you need? Not like, don't build the job for the person. Build it for what you need, because you still have to be selfish there. So I think that's a big piece of it. Some of the marketing tools that Linda just said, market pricing, and I'm going to go, no one went, oh, I know exactly what that is. Right? Because that's a little bit out there in the sense of if you're not dealing with compensation, but how are we paying them fairly? We have some great resources that can be free that are not employee reported. Like, hey, I make this much. Because whoever says how much they make appropriately, that it's information that's provided by other HR or payroll professionals that are saying, this is what we pay for that role. So as a business owner and as you're continuing to grow, you want to make sure you're paying fairly. And you can look at the market, you can look at where you're recruiting from to do that. So I think it's making sure you have the right job and making sure that you're paying to get the right person. And just being back to Lynnn's point, being honest, I always give the suggestion of tell the worst part of the job, right? And I think that we're jumping into interview and I'm sorry, all the lines.
00:22:03 - Speaker A
Kind of smush you together.
00:22:04 - Speaker B
So we'll get there, but it's just being very apparent, like, if you're going to have this person cleaning dishes, write in that they're cleaning dishes. The other piece of why the job description is important, if we get into that legal aspect of it and the essential functions, that's what does the job have to do? The reason why we do that is for if they get an injury or something happens or they're out on leave, that's the document that you would send to the doctor's office to review of can they do their job? So that's what essential functions mean is if I have a line cook because I have a small kitchen and they're working with fryers? Can they have some type of condition that they'll automatically faint? That's probably not a phenomenal space for them to work in. So again, it's being mindful. What can they do? How can we work with them? How are they going to be successful? And you are, too.
00:23:03 - Speaker A
So this brings up some really good questions that you're talking about here. So you're both saying be honest in your description. And beyond being honest, really think it through. Because I have always wondered about that. Like, okay, so everyone just puts duties as assigned, and it's like, what does that mean anyway? Are we supposed to put that because it's like it covers our butts, or is it just there because we're not sure what to put?
00:23:30 - Speaker B
It's more to cover yourself. However, we really try to discourage putting that there.
00:23:35 - Speaker A
Do you?
00:23:35 - Speaker B
Yeah, I do.
00:23:37 - Speaker A
It's so ambiguous.
00:23:39 - Speaker C
It is ambiguous.
00:23:40 - Speaker A
What does this mean? And yet there are certain things you see on job descriptions and things like that, where I'm like, is this here because legally it's a good idea, or is this just because we're not very creative and we didn't think about what we really meant? But I love the idea of, hey, if we, for example, were going to hire somebody into help with office management, a piece of that in our office would be that we would need help with the dishes. Now, there's three to four of us in the studio at a time, so it's not a pile of dishes. We're not talking like dishwasher at a restaurant, but from what you're saying is, go ahead and throw that in the description, or is that something that comes up in an interview? When do you kind of reveal those things? How much do you reveal? Because I could also see people being like, well, I went hired for an office assistant, and once they got there, they'd be like, yeah, no problem washing a couple of dishes. But if it was in the job description, they might be like, what? I'm not going to apply for that. How do you walk that line out of an out?
00:24:39 - Speaker B
If he did dishes, man right. Don't bait and switch.
00:24:43 - Speaker A
Right?
00:24:45 - Speaker B
The last thing you want is somebody to come on board and immediately go, oh, I didn't know that was part of the job.
00:24:50 - Speaker A
Right?
00:24:51 - Speaker C
Yeah. I don't get down to the nitty gritty. That's where I put in the other duties as a sign because there could be a project that comes up that we need help with. And I want people to know that because when you're a smaller company, things like that come up, and you have to be a team player and jump in. But I probably wouldn't put wash the break room dishes.
00:25:13 - Speaker A
Right. Too specific.
00:25:15 - Speaker C
But when I interview people and this is where every company can do what fits for them, but when I'm talking with candidates, I'm very open of you've got to wear multiple hats. Sometimes that means you're going in the break room and putting the food in the fridge after we've had a catered meal. So just being open about that, I.
00:25:38 - Speaker A
Like the idea that you might bring some of that up even in the interview, just to sort of get a reaction and see how they feel and how you feel. I've often mentioned when we bring on somebody, sometimes I sweep the floor and wash the windows, quite literally. And I own the company, co own the company. So there might be things like that that pop up. Are you okay with that? That's maybe an okay way of addressing.
00:26:03 - Speaker C
That about I would address it.
00:26:04 - Speaker A
Absolutely. Cool.
00:26:05 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:26:06 - Speaker A
Okay. The compensation piece. So we just google it. Should I not be googling it? Oh, my gosh, I'm seeing cringes. This is where I'm like I just have to be honest because this is what we are all doing out here, my friends. I see tears. I am a little cheery over here. Oh, boy.
00:26:23 - Speaker B
No.
00:26:23 - Speaker A
So, like, don't google it. Or how do we find google it.
00:26:27 - Speaker B
But you got to figure out where is that source coming from? Right. I think a free source that we recommend pretty often is BLS. What does BLS stand for?
00:26:37 - Speaker C
Bureau of Labor Statistics.
00:26:39 - Speaker B
Love you. Thank you. So that's a great place where it is still reported by the organization that it's paying.
00:26:47 - Speaker A
Right.
00:26:48 - Speaker B
Because I trust people a ton. And so if I say, how much are you making? And they have to put in how much they're making to have access to something that they want, they're not going to put in how much they're actually making. Right. And that's what you're making decisions on.
00:27:03 - Speaker C
Indeed.
00:27:03 - Speaker B
In glass door types of this is good stuff.
00:27:08 - Speaker A
Like, we don't know, it's reliable, helpful.
00:27:09 - Speaker C
But I think a good point to make is you need to have just multiple sources. So sure, Google it. But then do some follow up, too, and, like, the Bureau of Labor Statistics or a salary survey or comp analyst.
00:27:25 - Speaker B
Or eri or like I'll be honest, it's worth a couple hundred dollars, like three to $500 to market. Price a job with a consultant because they'll set you in the right place and you can walk away going, yes, that's the right one. And we have access to those here at Haram we can give you here.
00:27:45 - Speaker C
Are a couple we do one offs, too, for people.
00:27:49 - Speaker A
We do need it. That's awesome.
00:27:50 - Speaker B
Absolutely. So definitely use that resource because that $300 may save you several thousand down the road of what people are actually being paid.
00:28:01 - Speaker A
I feel like, too, it's, like, very regional. For sure.
00:28:05 - Speaker C
Yes, absolutely. Local.
00:28:07 - Speaker B
Regional.
00:28:08 - Speaker A
Yeah.
00:28:08 - Speaker B
And it depends on which job. When I do my market pricing, I'll look at the job of, like, am I hiring for this position nationally, regionally, or just here in Omaha?
00:28:18 - Speaker A
Now, you had mentioned, too, about just being sure. To have that basically job description because you might need it for other purposes later beyond the hiring of, oh, I'd have to turn this in so that they could understand why they're out on leave and things like that. Would you recommend that for literally every position I think of, restaurants come to mind they're in a hiring crisis. It's kind of like if I can get somebody as fast as I can get them. Would you recommend that they actually have a job description for every single waitress, hostess and all of those and make sure it's presented to them and signed off on? And signed off on, yeah, you sign.
00:28:54 - Speaker B
It acknowledging, I know this is what.
00:28:56 - Speaker C
My job is, and not being afraid to use that throughout the whole employment process. So you're sitting down, having a one on one, and you need to talk about performance, being able to reference that back and keeping that in front of the employee.
00:29:10 - Speaker A
I love that because I think a lot of owners think of it for maybe a leadership role. Obviously, I'm going to use this, but may not think of it for some of the more entry level or things where it's just like, I just need somebody so fast and we all understand what a waitress is going to do, or we all understand what my bartender is going to do. And it's like, well, do we really can get kind of interesting that way.
00:29:31 - Speaker B
There's weight limits with that, right? How much are they carrying? What if that person had a bad back? Is that going to go on your insurance if they ruin a plate of food and get hurt on your time? Did we check? Can they actually care?
00:29:46 - Speaker C
There's the physical requirements piece, which is.
00:29:49 - Speaker B
That'S part of it, part of the.
00:29:50 - Speaker C
Essential functions, and you have to have that documented and shared, discussed.
00:29:55 - Speaker A
I love it. This is good.
00:29:56 - Speaker B
And you can always update it. Please know we talked about change. I think that I've gone in and I've changed job descriptions because the function and the role has changed as your company expands. So that's okay. You just present the new one and have them resign off of what has changed and you keep moving forward. But keeping those current are incredibly helpful.
00:30:18 - Speaker A
And that's something you could do at like a quarterly conversation or an annual review or things like that. Yeah, I love that. So how about we've got it outlined, we've decided what's going in it. What about the whole posting and kind of interviewing process? What types of tips do you have for that? I know a number of people that we work with. They're like posting it right on Facebook, and they're looking for applicants that way. What are you ladies seeing and what kind of tips might you give for getting that posted? In both a compliant way, right, but also in a way that is effective in getting in front of people right now.
00:30:57 - Speaker C
Yeah, I think you have to be creative and get it in front of as many people as you can. And so that's a variety of job boards. That's social media, that's getting your employees to share it on social media. It's doing your own sourcing as well and finding candidates. If you know that there's really good candidates at certain businesses or backgrounds or competitors of reaching out and sourcing as well, you can't just post and wait. I mean, you've got to do some sourcing. But as far as know, there's Indeed and Glassdoor and LinkedIn. Facebook has their job boards. Lynn, what else? I mean, you've gotten creative with some.
00:31:39 - Speaker B
Better teams is one of the ones that I've gotten a lot of inquiries from. I have to go back and look at my stats of how many people I've hired from there. But I've gotten a lot of applications. And so that's a really good space to look in LinkedIn sourcing off of LinkedIn. So I'm not going to use the fast food chain that I go to, but there is one that does a phenomenal job of training their employees. And I may or may not go and eat there more often just to see if I come across somebody with amazing customer service skills and slip them a business card. So it's all about if you come across someone that they just kind of blow your socks off and have that customer service give them your card, that's how you find some of the best candidates.
00:32:28 - Speaker A
I love that idea there. And I have hired that way in the past and have told others to do the same. Like have noticed when we had a production company, for example, musicians make amazing video editors, awesome, even if they've never edited a video before. They just kind of have the rhythm. They have storytelling, the technical side. And so when we'd meet a really great musician, a lot of times they were looking for another gig, and we're like, we'll train you to be a video editor. And so that would come in. But another one is we do have certain brands like you're alluding to where we're like gosh. If we needed someone, I would totally go poach. Someone who has worked in one of these types of companies or in this company because they've been trained so well through their programs. I love, too, that you were mentioning about sourcing. I just really want to highlight that because I think there is especially as a small business who you're busy, not that everyone isn't busy, but I think, again, this is one of the ones where you're like, I need people, I need people. And then you're like, Where are they? This is not a field of dreams. Like, you cannot build it and they will come. They're not necessarily coming. And so I love how you were talking about sourcing. And to me, that means I go through my LinkedIn I go through my Facebook friends and I'm like, who might be looking for a job or who would know somebody might be looking for a job or who would I like to have that I don't think would leave their job. And so I'm going to slip this to them and say, hey, I just thought you might know somebody like you. And then if they are looking for.
00:33:59 - Speaker C
A job, that's a great way to.
00:34:00 - Speaker B
Do it right all the time.
00:34:01 - Speaker A
But then also they know the characteristics I'm looking for. I know me and I know other people who are kind of like me. And so I can help with that. But I think that's huge. A client who was looking to hire, I mean, that was where a lot of their applicants came from is we literally got on the phone or sent an email and said, I think you might be great or you might know somebody great. And they ended up hiring from that pool even though they had it posted on job boards and things like that too.
00:34:26 - Speaker C
I'll connect with people that I like their background. I'll send a message and I'll say, I like your background. I think you could be a good fit within our organization. Maybe now is not the right time, but let's connect and stay in touch. You're always wanting to source and build your network, even if it's not a now and sourcing for later.
00:34:49 - Speaker A
What about hiring? I guess what I call it's probably now. I'm like surrounded by HR people. I'm going, oh no, a headhunter. Is that an okay term to use? Okay, I'm just writing for the slaps on the wrist.
00:35:02 - Speaker B
We're never going to slap you on the hand, okay? We've all been there. We've all done stuff like you're good. I think it depends on the role that you're looking for and absolutely use your resources. There are some really great places that will help you find that person. If you really just don't have the ability to do it, you're going to pay for it. But that's okay. Sometimes we pay to get our lawn mowed. Sometimes we need things done for us and done well. So I think it's what you put out there. And again, if you don't even know where to go, haram is a great resource of where are these places and where are good, helpful headhunters and people that can help us or even temporary help. And so we partner with a lot of amazing companies that we have great connections to. So it's just use us. Ask us those questions.
00:36:01 - Speaker A
Yeah. Lean into the resources you have. For sure.
00:36:04 - Speaker B
Absolutely. So I think one thing that we left out on this piece before we jump to the next one is use your mission. So I will tell you that our mission where everyone else that I've kind of talked to because we're a mission based organization, I haven't seen, I'm going to knock on every piece of wood there is around me, by the way. I've not seen the lack of resumes. I've actually had more. I've had a lot of people that have left the corporate world and are really looking for that mission driven focus. And so if you have that organization and you have a mission that is just like, will speak volumes to people, use it. Those are some of the best recruiting tools, is to use what your mission is, if that is in your business field. So I was telling Lynn the other day, I posted a job and got 49 applications in the first week, and I was like, oh, hold on, I need to pause on this job because I need to go through all of these first. But that's awesome and I got a ton of phenomenal candidates. So use what you have.
00:37:16 - Speaker A
I do think, and I'm really glad that you paused and put a pin there because we've talked a ton on the podcast in past episodes about your core values and that obviously pours right into your mission. Or of they go hand in hand, they're a little different, but very hand in hand. And that is something that even when Michaela and I have talked to contractors, because we're largely contractor based, but we see it as sort of a hiring process. Like, we still have to go through a posting and we have to have an interview talk through these things. But that's something we always work in, is just to explain, like, hey, these are our core values. What are some of your core values? What resonates with you because you can learn so much and see if that jives. And to your point, so often people are like, oh my gosh, I'm so aligned with that. And it makes it much easier to see if there's a right fit because you want it to be a good fit both ways, obviously. And if they're going to be miserable because they don't align with one of your core values, I'd rather know that now they don't have to hold the same values. They can have their own values. So we just want to make sure there's some alignment there. So I love that you brought that up and you're so right like the mission piece. And just to point that out, so many businesses think, well, our mission is we do accounting. And you're like, no, there's more there. Yeah, can you dig into that a little bit? And it really can make you stand out because I think a lot of people go, well, but we're not this nonprofit with this heartfelt mission, so how do we talk about it? But it can really differentiate between one restaurant in another, one accounting firm in another, one consultant in another 100%.
00:39:03 - Speaker C
I love that employees want to know they're joining a company that is making an impact and that the value that the employee brings really is tied to that mission. And overall, people want to know that they're making an impact.
00:39:20 - Speaker A
Yeah, I know. I keep talking restaurants. I think I keep talking restaurants because there's just so many looking for I mean, everyone's looking, but it makes me think a little bit of like Chick fil A, right? Like you feel like there's a mission, you can either align with it or you don't. And there's just that feeling. So it gets kind of interesting that way.
00:39:40 - Speaker B
I don't recruit from there at all.
00:39:42 - Speaker A
Oh, never.
00:39:47 - Speaker B
They do a phenomenal job. We had one of the managers on a panel not too long ago, again, plug come and visit us, but was talking about the next generation and who we can expect to come into our workforce and how are we going to meet their expectations. And part of that is those flexible schedules. It's working with them. It's being understanding of what they're going through. And it's just always awesome to learn what others are going through because that's where we kind of help draw our own lines and drive our own businesses and where we're helping.
00:40:29 - Speaker A
It makes me think a little bit of an earlier episode with cup and cone. So I'll link that one here too and they mentioned just about having their family as part of the whole process and they are even getting feedback from their kids about how that hiring process isn't going and how the employees are feeling because they're much closer to them. They're working side by side with them, have gone to school with them. And then another episode. This is all tying together so well with Square. Donut and her son actually is basically partnered into the business and he runs the back of house and he's just so close generationally. He's pulling out things and thinking about things that she didn't right within that hiring process and what benefits and things that they want. So keeping that pulse has been huge for them.
00:41:22 - Speaker B
Yeah, my daughter is going to college and we walked on a campus, she was like, yeah, this isn't the vibe for me. And I looked at her, I was like, Vibe. What is vibe? Okay, so I'm aging myself. So, funny enough, I texted her this morning. I was like, all right, I just sent a thing of apartment guides and helping somebody move here. And I said, I think I found the vibe you're looking for. So it's understanding kind of that space and how quickly we have to still be in touch with the people that we're working with and really understanding what motivates them.
00:41:56 - Speaker A
So I love what you're saying then is that that can really come through in both creating the job and the position and making sure that those stand out then in thinking about where you're posting it, how you're posting it, who you're talking to. And then I was thinking too about as you're creating that description, one of the tools that we had mentioned before we got on here was using Chat GPT, right?
00:42:18 - Speaker C
That's my best.
00:42:19 - Speaker A
So I want to talk a little bit about that before we move on to the interviewing, because I loved what you were saying before we got on here recording, because I think everyone's like, okay, great, so I've got this description and then also but I'm not a good writer. How am I going to get this vibe in there that you're talking about, right? How am I going to stand out and be different? I don't know how to work my mission in there. And I immediately go to, well, use the tools that we have to help you, and Chat GPT can be one of those. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
00:42:48 - Speaker B
So Lynn, you can jump in as needed. I used this yesterday, so I'm going to fresh on my mind. But we have a new position that we're writing and to find those creative points, like, we know what it kind of looks like. I sat down with the hiring manager and I said, okay, let's add in what you're looking for. So we started with the very basic part of this job, and it was like an event manager. So here's the event manager. And then we said, okay, but also add in volunteer and so ads and volunteer. And you watch it typey, typey, typey. And then it's like, all right, but we are with a nonprofit, and so then it types again. And so I think we did like, ten revisions. So in like five minutes or less, it gave us a phenomenal platform to start with, right? And you go through and I think at one point, I put make it fun, right? Okay, maybe a little less fun, but that was really helpful to give the manager not a blank page to start from, right? I remember back in the day, I would sit and search and look at every posting that was out there to come up with bullet points, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is exhausting. And so it took maybe like a two hour search of me reading through how people have things written out to five minutes, so then I can actually make it more with our information and really pushes our mission and just makes those couple of tweaks to it. And then I think then I continue to use Chat CPTs to help me come up with all these interview questions, right? It's put like, culture Fit and event managing and managing volunteers, and it gave me, like, ten questions for each area. And so then it would make sure that we're not asking about your family and where did you grow up and all those questions you can't answer. And so we'll jump into those questions in a minute, but it came up with the questions themselves, and then I had to rewrite our job offer letter as well. And I thought oh, crap. I mean, I like what we have, but not really. So we're just going to restart, and I think I did, like, ten or 15 revisions, and it was just getting approved today. And so we have a whole new offer letter that we need vaccinations in there. We need certifications. We have background checks and drug screenings. This is, again, another plug in case you don't need these things, but it's highlighting once you sign. Here are some of the things that we're going to need as so but I'm not going to use these resources. They are out. Just it's a tool. And I think Lynn you said it best. So correct me if, however, I say this incorrectly, but it's a tool that we know kind of what we need to start with, but we still have to then once we get the information back, to modify it, to really use it just as a tool, not as your end all be all right.
00:45:49 - Speaker A
Is that fair?
00:45:50 - Speaker C
Yeah, utilize it as a resource, but obviously, you can't just take it for what it is. You've got to be able to read through and think critically to what aligns with what you truly need, what's appropriate, what's not appropriate, and use it just as that a resource. The same way you Google things and look for resources, you don't copy and paste and throw it together. You're thinking through how it all fits together.
00:46:14 - Speaker A
Right. And I actually just sent an email out today to our list about how to prompt chat GPT more correctly, because one of the biggest mistakes people make is they give up too soon.
00:46:27 - Speaker B
Oh, yeah.
00:46:27 - Speaker A
So I love that you said 1015 revisions. Refine. Refine. But just to say it again, 1015 revisions in, like, four to ten minutes. Right? Ten to 15 revisions for me would be, like, days. And so that's one of the biggest mistakes that I've just seen, is people are like, well, it didn't spit out exactly what I wanted in the first go, and it probably isn't. So I love that you just mentioned that, like, okay, now work our mission in now. Oh, we want to make sure we're talking about this volunteer piece. So I think that's really important to point out.
00:47:02 - Speaker B
We did a press release was my other because I was talking to a marketing person, right. And she didn't understand how this was writing this. It looked great, but so I took something that she writes all the time and said, okay, let's do this. And then we made details with it and then continued again, and I think we did, like, three or four renditions on it, and her mouth was just kind of on my desk.
00:47:25 - Speaker A
I know.
00:47:25 - Speaker B
Just super excited of, like, oh, my gosh, it has this piece and this piece and this piece, and for marketing people I'm so sorry. I don't even remember all the pieces that are needed within a press release. Because that's not my world. But she was like, it has everything that you need. But again, that critical piece of like, she knew what those pieces were. It was providing it. Then she would tweak it.
00:47:47 - Speaker A
Yeah, it's wild. And then we're going to listen back to this, like, ten years from now and be like, it was so basic.
00:47:53 - Speaker C
I know, absolutely.
00:47:55 - Speaker B
But today it's helpful. That's all I got.
00:47:58 - Speaker C
You got to embrace it because it's not going anywhere, and you got to know how to utilize it to your benefit to enhance.
00:48:09 - Speaker A
Okay, I want to talk about the interviewing piece. I think this is the most intimidating piece from the feedback I've had talking with other business owners, colleagues, people who are trying to figure this out. A lot of people do not feel comfortable interviewing either. They're not sure what questions to ask. They're not sure what they're allowed to ask. This is where I think HR gets that bad rap. I mean, I even alluded to it and was like, oh my gosh, are you going to slap my wrist? And you're like, no, that's not what we're doing. Right. But it's how I think a lot of people feel. I don't want to do the wrong thing. Could get sued. What if I ask how old they are? And I didn't mean to, and can I take it back? So as we think through that interviewing process, what are some tips there for folks who are going through that? And I know as I'm going to wrap that up and hand it over, is one of the biggest questions that we talk a lot about is how do I ask questions where I'm really going to get to know this person when I can't ask a lot of personal questions? And I'm not trying to ask it in a way right to dig in, but can I ask if they have a family? I'm not going to say I won't hire them, but I just want to understand. And it's kind of like, no. So talk us through that a little bit. This is a very gray area for people who are stepping into it, especially for the first time.
00:49:32 - Speaker C
Well, first and foremost, don't wing it and have a plan.
00:49:36 - Speaker A
All right. I like it already.
00:49:38 - Speaker C
Don't walk in with the resume. Sit down and start to go through it. We have interview guides that we use. So, one, you're asking the candidates all the same questions, or at least the same group of questions. And those are thoughtful questions. So the questions that we have outlined are thoughtful in the sense that it helps. Just a lot of it's kind of behavioral type situational questions. And that's how you get to know someone's work style and background from that standpoint and what they're truly looking for in a role and examples of X, Y, and Z that you need to see to be successful. So having an interview guide and the same questions and sticking to that. Certainly you can't control if a candidate divulges something that you didn't ask.
00:50:27 - Speaker A
Sure.
00:50:28 - Speaker C
But then you move on and you go to the next question. But being thoughtful in that and then we always talked about tweaking things. You've got an interview guide and you've got your questions. Well, maybe you want to ask those same questions as you're interviewing for that position, but the next time you open the role, maybe you've learned that, okay, I can change these a little bit, and I'm being okay with changing that process as well.
00:50:54 - Speaker A
So you're suggesting that if I was to have a role available and I interviewed five people, I need to make sure that I'm sticking to the same questions for all five people if I realize after the third person gosh, I really should have been asking this because clearly I don't know. You're saying I probably shouldn't ask that because I didn't ask the other people, so they didn't have the same chance. Is that the idea there?
00:51:21 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:51:22 - Speaker B
Then you get to go ahead and schedule a second interview.
00:51:25 - Speaker A
Oh, okay, right.
00:51:26 - Speaker C
Because that's where yeah, that's a good point.
00:51:29 - Speaker B
You can start with a first set of questions. So we do like, a phone screening. Like, we ask a couple soft, skill questions. We ask a few critical technical questions. It lasts, like, 30 minutes on the phone. That's a great way to go. Okay, they kind of wowed me. I want to go forward, or no, that's not it. And then you get to the manager interview or that next level. And then you ask more detailed, like more soft skill questions, more technical questions, and then you're kind of getting to the root piece of it. And we have a third level that we have a leadership, and that's just helpful for we traditionally have people that are not in the same department because they don't need to know that they can functionally do the job. They just need to see of do they fit what we're looking for and will they fit with our working with these people. And so there's a different set of questions with some additional technical. So don't limit yourself to one interview. I can be freaking phenomenal one day for a few minutes, right? Like, catch them a couple of times.
00:52:35 - Speaker C
Yes, we do a couple on site interviews.
00:52:39 - Speaker A
I like that idea. Let's say that I am going through that process of five. I get to the three. I stick with my questions. I think of questions I should have asked. I can always schedule a second interview if I hadn't told them that was coming, that's okay to do. Or do they need to know, like, there's going to be five interviews or three interviews?
00:52:58 - Speaker C
I think it's good to be transparent up front if you know there's going to be multiple interviews. But it's also okay to keep in touch and say, we're still considering you. We want you to come back in. I think just always keep in the back of your mind the candidate experience and how would you want that experience to look. Also, if you know you're passing on someone to let them know I know there's a lot of feedback or talk that candidates are ghosted too. And so we always want to make sure that we're communicating back out. And sometimes it's phone calls. If they've invested a lot of time coming in to interview, you probably should pick up the phone and let them know that they're not being selected. But however that looks, keeping that candidate experience in mind is really important.
00:53:48 - Speaker A
I like that because I immediately go to you don't know when they're going to show up in your candidate pool again.
00:53:54 - Speaker C
Exactly.
00:53:55 - Speaker A
You may want to or maybe you realize you have an extra role and you're like, man, I really want to get a hold of them. So you don't want to burn those bridges. Right. Keeping that open. I had a team I worked with and one of their founders, he would say something, I'm butchering it slightly. But the general gist of it was he wanted employees to have such an experience that he would want to work for them later if that ever came up. And I've always thought of that like, yes. And I think that can start in the hiring experience, right? For sure. Even if you don't hire them the first time, it doesn't mean there's not going to be a second or that you might be interviewing under them someday, correct?
00:54:35 - Speaker B
Yeah, absolutely.
00:54:37 - Speaker C
We're in a small community.
00:54:38 - Speaker A
We are in a small community.
00:54:39 - Speaker B
Everybody knows everybody. So I had said something about like, you can interview phenomenally. I want to take a second there and eat those words. Just a minute. Because I will be honest, depending on the role you're trying to fill, sometimes the best hire is the one that is the worst interview.
00:54:57 - Speaker A
Oh, interesting.
00:54:57 - Speaker B
So keep that kind of in the back of your mind really phenomenal interviewers. They may be phenomenal at it because they interview all the time. Right. And too, if you're hiring somebody that's behind the scenes and they're working in Excel sheets or I don't want to pick a job because I don't want to put a stigma or a bias on some of things. But if they're not forward customer facing continuously, then be mindful that the worst interview may be the best product and because they're so uncomfortable with that exchange. So just be mindful and kind of keep that in your mind. I've hired some phenomenal people that had terrible interviews and we laugh at it to this day that their interview was absolutely awful, but they were the right candidate because I knew technically they could do the job.
00:55:49 - Speaker A
That is a great point. So that makes me think a little bit about so what about having people do a task or. Perform a, I don't know, like go through an exercise of some kind. Is that acceptable? Are there ways and parameters around that or things to think about with that?
00:56:07 - Speaker B
You can absolutely do those.
00:56:09 - Speaker C
Yeah. I think just being consistent with how you're doing it and what you're asking them to do is what's most important and that your decision isn't completely based on just this task. You have to look at the whole interview process from, well, the whole application process, really, from resume to interview, to any type of skills assessment, to all of that take into consideration, but you can absolutely do those types of things.
00:56:39 - Speaker A
I love that. It's one though, that I often think about and I go, so what would that be? And so I like how you were talking about maybe they don't interview the best, but if they have this task or skill assessment, as you said, and you're like, okay, there it is. I can see it there. I think that is super helpful. Okay, one more that comes up here with interviewing quite a bit. And just recently for some folks we know you have amazing candidates. You get it narrowed down. You're down to two very different, both amazing. How do you ladies make those decisions? I know there's no necessarily right or wrong answer. It's more of like a subjective thing. You're down to the last two. How do you make that decision when you're just not sure? Great skill sets, very different people.
00:57:27 - Speaker C
I mean, in my world, inevitably it's up to the hiring manager. It's not HR's decision.
00:57:34 - Speaker B
Right.
00:57:35 - Speaker C
And what I've experienced in the past is you bring all of the people that's interviewed the candidate together and you sit down and you just talk through everyone's kind of experience and thought and it's a discussion, but in the end, it's the hiring manager's decision. Sometimes those are really hard decisions to make.
00:57:54 - Speaker A
Yes. You just have to go with it.
00:57:56 - Speaker B
I will be honest, we had that just recently where we had two phenomenal candidates. Either one is going to do great. They went with the person that had a little bit more experience. But I'll be honest, we didn't negotiate much to where they came back and counter offered and we said, no, we're going to go with the other candidate. And they ended up coming back and accepting our offer, which was amazing. However, it gives you just a little bit more confidence of like, I have two phenomenal people. Awesome. Keep in good relationship with both.
00:58:31 - Speaker A
Right.
00:58:32 - Speaker B
Because I can see this department growing to where I'm going to go call that person in the next six months to twelve months and say, hey, you want to come and work with us again?
00:58:39 - Speaker C
Right?
00:58:40 - Speaker B
So make the decision that works best for you, but keep the other lines of communication open.
00:58:48 - Speaker A
I like something you just alluded to, which was multiple people got into the room. We'd been talking about having, like you mentioned, your leadership team will have an interview. How important do you think it is, if possible, to pull other people in on this process and not just do it alone? Like, Well, I'm the owner, so I'm just going to interview them all myself and then make a decision by myself.
00:59:12 - Speaker C
I think it's really important to have multiple people involved so there's not a bias. So you're not hiring someone that's just like you. So you're hearing perspectives that other people maybe pulled out of an interview that you missed because absolutely, you were really excited about how they answered the one question that you didn't even think through the way the next question went. And so that's why multiple people interviewing is really important, to just keep everybody in perspective, and so you don't have that bias.
00:59:40 - Speaker A
I like that. Yeah.
00:59:41 - Speaker B
Lynn nailed it. It's always having the additional points of view. We never think the same, and we're better because we don't think the same. So if you're making decisions all day long on your own, man, you need someone to come and not be like you and kind of push you and make you grow and expand. That's how we get better, and that's how we become more inclusive.
01:00:04 - Speaker A
Yeah, that's something that Michaela and I noticed, and I actually caught myself recently as we were talking with possible vendor who might become a contractor. Might become we don't know.
01:00:14 - Speaker B
Right.
01:00:15 - Speaker A
We're figuring that piece out. And we were really headed down the road here, and all of a sudden I was like, Hold up. You need to also talk to Michaela and you need to talk to Jenny, and we need to have a full conversation because we shouldn't be relying on one perspective. In the midst of that, though, it was interesting to try and figure out how to all be, to your point, sort of on the same page. We were sort of asking consistent questions, but still figuring because we talked not as a group. So one would have an interview and then another would have an interview, another have an interview. So it was interesting to try and coordinate that and also make sure that everyone felt comfortable. When you do have a team involved, like you were mentioning your leadership team, are you helping provide a here's sort of our interview guide that we're going to use.
01:01:07 - Speaker C
Yeah.
01:01:07 - Speaker A
You're not letting everyone wing it. I'm picking up here. Right?
01:01:10 - Speaker B
No one ever gets to wing it. Yeah, we have interview questions are set before the job is post because I don't trust anybody. We have to know what we're asking before we move forward.
01:01:22 - Speaker C
Yeah, we have them in the calendar invite.
01:01:25 - Speaker A
Okay.
01:01:25 - Speaker C
They're right there.
01:01:26 - Speaker A
That's a great tip. Yes.
01:01:28 - Speaker B
Calendar invite is little hacks.
01:01:29 - Speaker A
Easy to find.
01:01:30 - Speaker B
Yeah, just don't put the I was.
01:01:32 - Speaker C
Like, just don't put them don't put the.
01:01:37 - Speaker B
Before yeah.
01:01:39 - Speaker A
Okay, so let's say we've found our candidate. We got it narrowed down what's the offer process look like, and any top tips for that.
01:01:46 - Speaker B
So I think our offer process Lynnn and I were comparing notes. Our suggestion is definitely make sure that you have one person making the offer. I don't know if you've ever experienced this fun one, but you bring somebody on and one person gives one direction because they had one conversation, and then you had a different conversation, and so then no one's on the same page, and you all look like a mess. And the last place you want to do, again, goes back to that experience is not have your ducks in order. So kind of assign those roles. Who's going to be doing the offer? Who's going to send the letter? Lynnn did a great job. She does a verbal offer and then sending out the offer, and it's a written offer. So having that as an option I know some people used to give a verbal offer and not send it written. Don't do that. That's illegal. No, thank you. Send them a written offer, and it only needs to be like a page or two long. It's not and this is all levels.
01:02:49 - Speaker A
Of anyone you hire at any level, right?
01:02:51 - Speaker B
Every level.
01:02:52 - Speaker A
Make sure we're all here in there.
01:02:53 - Speaker B
Floors to making the big decisions, everything.
01:02:57 - Speaker C
Yes. I mean, I've had an employee come back and say, I think I'm supposed to be making XYZ. And I said, no, let me look at your offer letter. No, it's actually this. Oh, I must have been thinking of a different job at the time. So it's important. Exempt versus nonexempt. I mean, we didn't even go down that path today. But making sure. So if whether they're an hourly or a salary employee, you want to have that documented in an offer letter. You want to have things contingent upon and you should really be saying this when you're doing an offer, like, if it's contingent upon passing a background check or a drug screen or providing I nine documents, we put that all in our letter. Sure. And also verbally when we're doing that, verbally explain.
01:03:38 - Speaker A
Because I could see somebody very honestly thinking, oh, I have the job. That too, and then finding out, oh, but I have to pass this and this, or I have to have this document, or whatever. And that would be a very awkward situation for everybody. So I love like, clear is kind, as they say.
01:03:56 - Speaker C
Yeah. I mean, we don't even move forward with the rest of the onboarding process until they've signed their offer letter because I want commitment from them as well, that they're ready.
01:04:06 - Speaker A
What I love about this conversation is I think there can be a huge misconception that this is all just like, dotting I's and crossing t's, but it really has so much to do with valuing and respecting people is what I'm hearing is that you are showing like I value you and we value our team and we respect you and we respect our team and ourselves. And because of that, we want to make sure everything is very clear. It's understood from the beginning, you might have to wash Vivian's coffee cup, but she will make sure there's toilet paper in the like, we're being specific about it, or you're going to have to make some really big decisions, and you're running budgets. We want to make sure you understand that, all the way down to what your offer is. So specifically that there just can't be ambiguity there. And to me, I hear that and go, that sounds like one of the kindest things that you could do for a person.
01:05:02 - Speaker C
Yeah.
01:05:03 - Speaker A
Which I think is really cool. So really, you guys are like the Kindness Department. I love it.
01:05:07 - Speaker B
Haven't been called that one before.
01:05:09 - Speaker C
Lynn have been called a lot of things. That wasn't the Kindness Department.
01:05:13 - Speaker B
There you go. Take that one back to my CEO.
01:05:15 - Speaker A
That's right. And then there's always like but sometimes we have to fire people. And I'm like that sometimes is the kindest thing for everybody. Everybody. So you get to keep the Kindness title. Okay.
01:05:24 - Speaker C
That's why you have a thoughtful hiring process. Because we've made bad hires, and it happens. But like you said, sometimes there's just not the right job alignment. And I think it is important as a company to take ownership sometimes of that and what that looks like. Maybe it's severance, because you recognize, like, I really screwed this one up.
01:05:46 - Speaker A
That's fair, right?
01:05:47 - Speaker B
Yeah, absolutely.
01:05:49 - Speaker C
And just being fair. Yeah, fair to that.
01:05:53 - Speaker A
Okay, last question related to this, and I've got a couple of rapid fire questions. We'll just blast through really quick. They're just kind of fun things. Okay. But you hear it said a lot, or I hear it for sure said a lot, that you should hire slow, fire fast. How does that land with you in your world? Part of me is like, oh, it feels a little like, are we on the kindness path here? Are we not?
01:06:18 - Speaker C
No. I think you should always be fair to the employee. My approach is, unless there's really something egregious that has happened, certainly there's those types of situations, but beyond that, an employee really should never be surprised to an extent. Or if they are, I guess maybe they're just really in their, I don't know, own world. But no, our approach is that we want to have those conversations. We want to see employees succeed. There's a cost with turnover and losing employees and starting the hiring process all over again.
01:06:52 - Speaker A
And there's an emotional cost.
01:06:54 - Speaker C
And there's an emotional cost.
01:06:55 - Speaker A
I think a lot of business, oh, it's so expensive. I'm like the emotional cost of investing and them investing.
01:07:04 - Speaker C
So, no, I don't think you should fire fast. That's my thought.
01:07:08 - Speaker B
Bryn, I'm going to sit over here and smile.
01:07:10 - Speaker C
She is ready.
01:07:11 - Speaker A
No, people throw it around all the time.
01:07:15 - Speaker B
I think go slow in hiring, but not so slow because you're going to lose the good candidates.
01:07:20 - Speaker C
Well, you're right. You shouldn't go super slow.
01:07:24 - Speaker B
If it takes you longer than 30 days from the time you post the job to hire someone, you're going too slow. All right. You got to go quick because the good ones will leave and they won't think that you're the top candidate. So I'm going to push back a little bit on that one. As for the firing side, I agree with Lynnn. They will have to know that it's coming. You have to give them the opportunity to learn. There absolutely is a cost to turnover. However, if you know it's not the right job or if they know it's not the right job, find a way to make that separation a positive engagement because you want them to go back into the world and still talk positively about your environment. Even if it wasn't a great fit for them, it might be for somebody else. So I think you can terminate at the rate that you need to, and every situation is different. Is that fair?
01:08:22 - Speaker C
Yeah. When I hear higher slow, I guess I hear higher thoughtfully. So have everything ready to go ducks and rows. So when you are ready to move forward, you can move things along fairly quickly, but be thoughtful about the process there. But, yes, you can't sit and wait because it's a competitive market right now.
01:08:44 - Speaker B
Especially they'll be gone quick.
01:08:46 - Speaker A
Yeah. I love how you literally brought it full circle. We talked about be thoughtful and have a plan at the very beginning. Right. And that, I think, is one of the big takeaways that I'm hearing is it is being thoughtful through the process. It's not rushing. It's not just showing up with the resume and kind of punching through some questions here, but being thoughtful about it and then thoughtful about the process of onboarding. And obviously, we didn't even get to talk about just, like, retention and like, we're alluding to here at the end of, like, we really shouldn't be in a situation where there's this big, out of the blue, disruptive firing. It's more of a I just keep thinking about, again, valuing people, respecting them, being thoughtful and just being a good leader as well means that you do have to take the time and pour into this process. And if you're not willing to take the time and pour into it, then maybe rethinking if it's time to build your team or if you need to take in a different direction or if you need to do one hire which might be an HR person right.
01:09:48 - Speaker C
Or that.
01:09:48 - Speaker A
Yeah, there's that. Yes. They're like, yes. Okay. A quick, rapid fire for you here. What do you think is one of the biggest I'm going to flip this one a little bit. Usually I ask about owning a business. Biggest misconception about owning a business. But I would like to know what the biggest misconception about HR is that.
01:10:09 - Speaker C
We'Re going to think how to approach this.
01:10:13 - Speaker B
Actually, I think you gave a great idea, like in our conversation, you were like, you're going to slap our hands. We are not the slap your hands negative environment. We are your partners. We're your safety nets. We can tell you what your risk is going to be and then you get to choose if you're going to leap off that mountain or not. We get to just tell you there's a safety net on the way down or maybe not. So really just use us as your partner. That's what we're here for. It's not to correct you or we're not. Yeah, the gotcha police. There you go. That's not us.
01:10:50 - Speaker A
No HR jokes with the kindness crew.
01:10:55 - Speaker B
I don't know if that one's going to catch on, but we can try.
01:10:59 - Speaker A
I'm going to start a hashtag 1111. What would you say is an important piece of advice you've been given and you've actually applied in your life?
01:11:08 - Speaker B
I talk a lot, so I've always been said just try and listen a little bit more. I'm working on it. So it's listening to the people around you. And really the best way that I can be supportive is to listen what people need. And don't just stop at the first question. Be mindful to ask the second and third question. I like that because the way that you perceive somebody's doing something is not at all typically what's actually going on. So continue to ask two or three questions longer than you would have.
01:11:41 - Speaker A
I like that. It's very investigative, too.
01:11:43 - Speaker C
I like that advice I've been given. Oh, my gosh. I don't know. I wish I had time to think about this one.
01:11:49 - Speaker A
Sorry, I see this. I do surprise everybody with these.
01:11:53 - Speaker B
That's awesome.
01:11:53 - Speaker C
I don't know.
01:11:54 - Speaker A
Sorry. We'll come back to that.
01:11:56 - Speaker C
Yeah, come back to that one.
01:11:57 - Speaker A
What would you tell your 18 year old self knowing what you know about life now?
01:12:02 - Speaker B
Don't care what others think. I'm that old, by the way. I've gotten to the point of like I'm not here to impress others. I'm here to show up, be happy, do what makes like make sure that I'm doing good in what I'm doing and just be authentically who you are and supportive of the people around you.
01:12:25 - Speaker C
Yeah, I was going to say kind of the same thing. I think you get to a point where there's the small things that you think, I don't know are the big things when you're younger and they're just not. But I think as you are working through your career, I mean, I can go back and look at things that I've done and all of those kind of in some form or fashion seem to spill into one another as you grow in your career. And so I think part of it is just being aware and not forgetting kind of where you came from and what you've learned along the way and not be scared to just go for things and you don't always have to be safe. I'm probably one of those that I'm not a big risk taker at all and I have to tell myself sometimes it's okay, make that leap or take that risk.
01:13:19 - Speaker A
I love that. And you're right though. They have had anybody say they would go back and undo really? But they're also like but I would build on what I know. Now. What is your favorite kickback and relax beverage?
01:13:35 - Speaker C
A glass of red wine. That one I knew right.
01:13:38 - Speaker B
That one was done. She got that one. I do moscato. But I will be honest just because I like sweet. Mine's a bowl of ice cream, that just makes me happy.
01:13:49 - Speaker A
I wanted to start a business that delivered ice cream and cat food because as a college age gal, I would show up at the grocery store at about 11:00 at night needing ice cream and cat food. Every time I'm with you with the ice, it never took off.
01:14:07 - Speaker B
I'll call you next time.
01:14:08 - Speaker A
It's a strange mix but it seemed to be one that was needed for either of you. Is there a song or a book or a podcast or anything like that that's just kind of inspiring you right now or you like to crank up in the car?
01:14:21 - Speaker B
I have all these answers in my head so I was watching Lynn to see if she was going to go. I have speak by Tunde is really just a fun, inspirational, kind of connecting book that I've listened to probably three or four times. The other book that I've listened to four times already this year is think again by Adam Grant. If you're not thinking again or having somebody challenge you, you're missing it. So definitely do that. And then there was a country song that I just started jamming out to recently. Oh, gosh darn it.
01:14:54 - Speaker C
I'm going to have to look at.
01:14:55 - Speaker B
What it was but it was something about like I passed out in my truck and do you know this one?
01:15:01 - Speaker A
I don't slept in the back of.
01:15:02 - Speaker B
Okay. Give me my phone and I'll look. Hold on.
01:15:05 - Speaker C
While you're looking that up. You said country song which made me think of there is a country song and I don't listen to a ton of country but I think it's if you have a chance, take it.
01:15:15 - Speaker A
Okay.
01:15:15 - Speaker B
That's a fun one.
01:15:16 - Speaker C
And just the lyrics of that are really inspiring and it makes you just think about what am I doing in life and what opportunities do I have and not be afraid to if there's a chance, take it.
01:15:30 - Speaker A
I love it. Which butts up so well to what you would tell your 18 year old self.
01:15:34 - Speaker C
Yeah, right.
01:15:35 - Speaker A
I love it. That's cool, thoughtful. Did you find your song?
01:15:39 - Speaker B
I did. It's called truck bed by Hardy.
01:15:41 - Speaker A
Truck Bed.
01:15:42 - Speaker B
Yeah. It's a fun it reminds me in high school again, dating myself of just, like, jamming out rock band style. It warms my heart.
01:15:55 - Speaker A
Okay. What excites you? Just about the future. Anything at all in the future. I know for me, it's the evolution of this chat GPT stuff.
01:16:08 - Speaker B
Absolutely. It's where are our careers going next and what are those tools look like to make us just become better and how to use the kind of the It world and the AI world to just propel us. Oh, heavens. I started playing my oh, we got.
01:16:27 - Speaker A
The song Jesus Mighty. I love it.
01:16:31 - Speaker C
Yeah, I will say. So I started my role at Unity Med a little over a year ago and learned a lot in that last year and have now have a team under me, and we're a really solid team, and I just told him that this week, which goes to get the right people on your team. And so I'm really excited at where we're going in the next year and beyond as a company, but also just as a team and being able to know that I have some good support and we're going to have some good wins. And so I'm excited about that.
01:17:07 - Speaker A
That's cool.
01:17:08 - Speaker C
Yeah.
01:17:08 - Speaker A
And a testament to your leadership and the ability to bring that together, which I think is very cool. Okay, last one here. What do you think businesses, companies, organizations can do to make the world a better place? Remember, we're talking kind of about that mission and that bringing that full circle. What does that look like for you?
01:17:29 - Speaker C
I think businesses have a great opportunity to you could take it in a variety of ways, but being able to provide the resources for employees to be able to give back, to educate around just kind of dei initiatives. And if you can be a good company doing good things and social responsibility and all of that, you're making that positive impact on your employees. And they're taking that and taking that into their personal lives. And so I think businesses have a great opportunity to be able to develop and build good humans.
01:18:09 - Speaker A
Yeah. It's cool.
01:18:11 - Speaker B
Kind of saying the same thing I was just going to say. We get the opportunity to invest in people, right? Can't change the world, can't even change our block, maybe, but we can invest in the people for them to go out and really be an amazing human in the world. And so if they enjoy their job, right, you know this. You walk away from your job or you walk away from what you're doing, you go home and you're like a nicer human. And that could be to the person at the store, whatever, we impact others, and so however we can do that so that they impact additional people. That's really all I look for. And so I have a saying at our office of, like, show up, be nice, enjoy your job, and then go home and enjoy your family. And so if you're doing those things and you're growing, it's just going to reap positive of everything that they're coming into.
01:19:09 - Speaker A
Yeah. I love it.
01:19:10 - Speaker C
Yeah. I'm going to steal something from our director of culture that she says employees have a work bucket, like a life bucket, family bucket, and a community bucket. And employees want to be generally speaking, people want to make a difference, and they want to have opportunities to volunteer and make a difference. And if we can help fill those buckets and as an organization be able to provide those opportunities, they're a more fulfilled employee, like Bryn just said.
01:19:39 - Speaker A
Yeah, that's cool.
01:19:40 - Speaker C
So providing those opportunities for employees is really important, and that's what employees want.
01:19:45 - Speaker A
Right? I love that. Like, as a business, you get to create those buckets and then help fill them, which is really awesome. Well, not to play off of that too much, but thank you for filling my bucket. Awesome.
01:19:58 - Speaker C
This was fun.
01:19:59 - Speaker A
Yeah. This is so helpful. And again, it is such an area that I just love how you shed some light on and just helped us understand more about it and just who and where and the resources. There are so many resources out there, and so I will be gathering those from you ladies, any links that you have that you feel like sharing and then also just being sure to link if people are interested in becoming members and learning more. So we'll make sure to have all that in the show notes. So thank you so much for being here and sharing.
01:20:29 - Speaker B
Thank you, non member. Even if you just want to come and popeye and check out one of our chapter programs or any of those things, let us know. We open our arms to you if you let Lynnn and I know that you heard us through the podcast. Lynnn and I are normally at every chapter event. Like, we'd love to meet you.
01:20:48 - Speaker C
Be amazing.
01:20:49 - Speaker B
So I just put her on the spot there.
01:20:51 - Speaker A
Yeah. That's so awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
01:20:54 - Speaker B
Absolutely. Well, thank you for the time.
01:20:57 - Speaker C
This is fun.
01:20:57 - Speaker B
We've just scratched the surface. So if there's more HR stuff you guys want to talk about, I'm more.
01:21:02 - Speaker A
Than happy to know who we're calling.
01:21:05 - Speaker B
All right.
01:21:06 - Speaker A
Thank you.