050 | Ponds, Lakes, Oceans: How to Master The Basics From Distilling to Selling Bottles | Part 1/2 with Ilias Mastrogiannis (Seattle, WA, USA)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 050 I had the pleasure of chatting with Ilias Mastrogiannis. He is the Founder of Distillery Nation Podcast and Mastrogiannis Winery and Distillery, based in Washington State, inspired by Greek tradition. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Time Stamps

0:00 Intro

0:51 Ilias' Podcast

3:59 Building Demand

5:30 Starting Product

6:46 Traditional Vs Modern Occasions

10:38 Ring Road of Messaging

16:23 Event Driven Messaging

20:26 Event Specialized Products

24:25 Dusty Vs Vibrant Categories

28:22 Primacy of Cocktail List?

30:52 Outro

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Ilias Mastrogiannis

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

What is MAFFEO DRINKS Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm Your.
Host Chris Mafia.

In episode 50, I had the
pleasure of chatting with Ilias

Mastroiannis.
He's the founder of Distillery

Nation Podcast and Mastroiannis
Winery and Distillery, based in

Washington state, inspired by
Greek tradition.

I hope you will enjoy.
Our chat Ciao Elias, how you

doing?
Hey, Chris.

Thank you for having me.
Doing great.

Fantastic.
So I decided to use the the

Greek spelling of your name.
Like last time we were using the

the Anglo-Saxon American Elias,
but I I prefer doing the, you

know, the roots back to Europe.
Absolutely.

No, no words at all.
And yeah, appreciate the invite.

I'm super happy to to be here
and been listening to your

podcast for almost six months
since really it kind of came

online.
So I'm very happy to be here.

Fantastic, fantastic.
And I mean I have to thank you

first because you were one of
the first one, if not probably

the first one actually who
invited me to his podcast

because you have Distillery
Nation podcast, you are the

founder and host of it.
And I I repurposed one of the

first episodes.
It was the episode with you and

then now when I was doing some
inventory of my episodes and

then I saw you and I said it's
time to to invite Ilias now on

on the Mafao Drinks podcast, so.
I got you hooked up, so

podcasting is is a great way.
So I'm I'm glad that you were

able to to start your own as
well.

Exactly.
And then it and it's one of the

those episodes with the biggest
time difference because it's 9

hours difference.
It's the last episode, you know,

it's the last recording of the
year 2023 for me.

So it's an honor to have it with
you that's, you know, you were

the first one to bring me into
this world of podcasting.

So let's let's start with a few
questions.

So, I mean, you are a host of a
podcast, but you are ultimately

the founder of the Master
Johnny's winery and distillery.

We started the business almost
nine years ago.

The actual podcast started
first.

It started as a as a way of me
trying to understand the

business because I had no clue
what I was doing.

It was really an idea of
starting this branded distillery

at the time in Washington state.
We're in Washington state.

The podcast came first actually,
and it was a way of me going

around to other distilleries
that were established in the

area and asking questions.
And I'm like, oh, I can actually

really record this and start
sharing it.

And that's how the podcast
started first, probably 6 months

before we became licensed, and
then the business came after

right after that.
So when people ask me, it's like

it's is it the chicken or the
egg or the podcast or the the

business.
It's always the podcast that

came first, Kind of as a way of
me asking questions and going

around and trying to understand
what the heck am I doing

starting this.
Love it, love it.

I mean this is basic.
I mean basically the podcast was

the incubator of the distillery
and and it's it's very similar

with me because what I do with
the podcast is that it it gives

me the opportunity to challenge
my own thinking.

I guess it's the same for you
with with this feeling and

really challenging my own ideas
now because then I I realized

that OK this is how I think
things should be done.

And then, you know, I chat with
you and I chat with other people

and then I challenge that and
then I say, OK, maybe maybe

that's not clear the way I
convey the message or maybe

actually this other way was a
different way.

For example, I was very much
focusing on the on trade in the

beginning.
Now I've changed my approach and

I call it the bottom up trade,
the on and off in the outlets

where you can build the brand
and not just milk it so to say.

And that came through the
podcast by talking especially

with whiskey people because in
whiskey the off trade and the

independent stores make a big
part of the of the brand

building journey of of a whiskey
brand and and so on.

So let me ask you a couple of
questions on how you do things

because I mean, you're a family
business, right?

We are, yeah.
Yeah.

It's really full time.
Me and my wife at the moment.

And then a couple seasonal
contractors here and there that

help during summer through
events.

But yeah, it's it's really a
very, very small business and

it's a family business,
absolutely.

So how do you build demand for
your brand?

Because we discussed the
podcast, but how did you move

the first steps in into a game
Nobody knows the Master,

Johnny's wine, winery and
distillery.

And what did you do?
I think with everything, any

type of business, right, It
starts with your immediate

family.
It started with that circle of

friends and family where the the
business started becoming actual

business and then we released
our first product and it was

building demand through the
immediate circle.

And then I'm a big believer in
Word of mouth.

I think it's one of the most
underrated tools that we have in

our business, especially in the
beverage alcohol business.

It's that recommendation from a
friend that goes a long way.

So it started, we're really with
that initial circle of family

and friends where they try the
product, they liked it, it was

good.
And then little by little it it

started expanding and now it's
it's really tall strangers to

buy our products just because of
that continuous word of mouth.

I think that we try to do a good
job.

Nice.
And did you start with the,

which one was the product
because now you have a wider

range, but the the very first
product that you started with,

which one was it?
Yeah, we are.

So we are.
We started as a branded

distillery that's really the
focus from the beginning,

essentially grapes, so distilled
grapes or wine and one of our

very first products was very
traditional to Greek heritage,

which is the Uzo, which is the
anise flavored, very similar to

Sambuca, right.
So we started with a a Uzo

distilled from a wine base as
our very, very first products

that we ever released.
Wow.

OK.
So you started with that and

then you expand it into, you
know, the wider range of Brandy?

Exactly.
Yeah.

We started Uzo and then that
really targeted a lot of that

Greek heritage and and family
circle.

A lot of the Greek restaurants
went behind it just because

there was no Oozer distilled
locally, you know, it was all

imported.
So that that helped us a lot,

just establishing ourselves and
now we have maybe 7 different

brandies all all the way from
Grappa all the way up to you

know the traditional barrel aged
styles that we that we release.

Nice.
And and tell me like I mean you

mentioned the you know Greek
restaurants and and so on.

So did you start with the that
traditional occasion so to say

like to to give a hook to, I
mean you mentioned first the

friends and family and then the
trade.

I will take it in two steps.
Now there were the one thing is

how you explain that to the
friends and family.

And then how did you explain
that to the to the trade, to on

trade or off trade?
We started with that very

focused occasion and target
audiences because I'm Greek, so

I can understand the needs.
I can understand that there's

not a lot of good imported stuff
in my opinion that lands in the

US in terms of Greek inspired
products.

So that was one of the very
focused areas that we did is

it's let's try to produce
something that it's authentic

but locally as well, you know,
with local ingredients as much

as we can.
The Greek restaurants do love

it, you know, because it allows
them to continue the story with

their ingredients to, you know,
they where they source locally.

Perhaps if they're a fish, you
know, focused Greek Tavern or

restaurant, they can use a local
grappa or local ouzo for for

their menu as well.
So it plays very, very well with

that.
And it's also, you know, the

Greek heritage as well, that
it's just the chair and the top.

Fantastic.
And one of the things that we

often discuss here in the in the
podcast, as you know, is the

fact that the target occasion as
a as a whole thing now and then

people can call it target
occasion, you know, or target

cocktails or demands pays as the
big corporations nowadays are

calling it.
But there is always a

traditional occasion and then a
more modern occasion.

People have this tendency to
start with, you know, let's go

to this fancy cocktail bar and
let's list our ouzo or you know

Brandy there.
But that's more modern take now.

But I feel that the, the most
important thing is to is to

consolidate that basic
foundation of of the brand into

what that the liquid is known
for.

And I love to hear that you know
that focus from you.

Yeah, yeah, maybe that's a
minus, but it does change

depending on the target
audience.

So for example, if you were to
approach a Greek conspire

restaurant for example, we would
probably most likely play our

Greek card, You know, that says,
hey, we are from Greece, You

know, we we try to, you know,
produce something authentically

and locally and that usually
makes the sale.

But also there's variations of
that.

For example, we do a lot of
events just in person just to

get people to try our product
where we would say we're a Greek

American branded distillery.
That phrase can change a little

bit, but that's kind of the core
message.

And what what that does is
actually two things that most

likely a lot of people have
visited Greece.

So they have a great memory of a
great vacation and that connects

with with the product.
So when people think think

Greece, they think Santorini and
they think the blue waters and

the food and that just brings it
home for us.

It's a great connector because
again a lot of people visited as

a tourist destination and it
also you know with the American

it does bring us a little bit
forward.

You know we're not super
traditional in our approaches.

When we make something we
produce non Greek type products.

You know we we make a couple
different brandies that you

would not see in Greece.
So that kind of bridges the the

two worlds in my opinion where
we can play our our heritage

card because we we are truly
Greek and we understand that

space very, very well.
It helps connect with consumers

as well and restaurants and bars
if if that's part of their

target audience, but also kind
of keeps US1 foot forward, if

that makes sense.
Fantastic.

I was thinking now that you were
talking at the the conversation

that I had in a previous episode
and I'm I'm, I'm trying to bring

it on now like because it's it's
very fresh in my mind.

I'm just writing about this that
the brand messaging in the

selling story on how you explain
it to customers and consumers is

a little bit like the the a ring
Rd. of of the city.

You know, you know it depends
which Rd. you take in and then

you have this ring Rd. that
connects all these roads, you

know, and lets you enter the
city.

You know it all roads lead to
Rome.

And I and it always think of you
know all these Roman roads no

Salaria Aurelia you know like
all these big arteries that the

Romans created and and you know
they're still used nowadays.

And it because sometimes you can
use the grape hook if somebody

wants to for example go higher
from wine or you can Brandy if

somebody likes Brandy or
somebody if they want to

digestive or somebody if they
want something Greek because

they are in a Greek restaurant.
So it depends where you are and

you can mold it in a different
way but the end result is the

same is like you want to be
poured in in a glass, no.

Then how you would get there may
be different because you know

with some people you may do the
the old transaction in Greek

with a Greek owner you know and
then and then I'm guessing that

from with Greek owners then some
of them may be skeptical because

they may just want to have
products from Greece you know

and then with some others it may
be a different story because

they would appreciate that it's
an actually a Greek American

product.
So it it really depends on how

you carry that conversation to
the to the table now and and how

you land that that save.
Absolutely, yeah.

No, that's a great knowledge
with all roads lead to Rome.

I think that's.
And as I said earlier too, it

could be a -, 2 because you
know, you might not be super

consistent with your story and
you might get it confused I

guess.
But in my view, it is super

important to be able to be
flexible because today's society

is very, very fluid, very
flexible in terms of what people

want to consume, tying it to a
real story outside of the

liquid.
Yes, the liquid, as past guests

mentioned too, you know, it has
to be super good, otherwise they

will not probably purchase it
again.

But it's past that and it's
connecting again either with

that super great vacation that
they had or with the food or

with an experience that connects
the product to the story.

And then they remember you, you
know, because that's part of the

story is like, OK, they'll
purchase one, but will they

remember you to go back to the
store on the sea of Brandy's or

whatever the product is?
You know, if you took the wines,

it's even worse to pick up your
bottles.

That's, that's really the
connection and making that is

very, very difficult.
So I guess being consistent with

one story has a benefits, but
it's also you got to being able

to say as you said understand
where you're at in the

conversation.
Is it a geek, Brandy geek that

wants to get all the Nita greedy
or is it maybe, as you said,

somebody from the old country
that really, you know, just

wants a local made product that
has that spin on it?

When I was chatting with Steven
Grass, you know where he, he

calls it the the onion method in
his book.

Like, you know, like you have to
peel the onion and there's

different layers and you have to
be able to convey that message.

You know, I'm a big fan of
having a very simple message.

So if I don't want to hear any
origin story of you and your

family, where you come from or
whatever, you know, I just want

to hear the What is this?
You know, what's the ABV?

How does it taste like?
Is it sweet?

Is it dry?
Is it whatever, You know, I just

want to have the very basic
fundamentals know.

And then then I go deeper and
there's the whole Greek.

OK Why?
Why is it Greek?

OK, because I'm Greek.
You know, like.

And then you can build on layers
and what I love.

What was the the example that he
has in his book about the The

Simpsons.
And he says if you watch an

episode of the Simpson you get
it.

You know you get that episode
you get who's the mother, who's

the father the sisters and of
Bart and whatever.

But but then if you if you are
hooked to to The Simpsons then

you see detail that if you watch
it for the first time you would

miss.
So you shouldn't alienate the

the hardcore geeks you know of
Brandy in this particular

example.
But then you should also not

scare people that have no idea
what Brandy is.

You know, the direct one,
whoever a digestive or a

refreshing drink or whatever.
You know, like that kind of like

cocktail or or neat occasion is
to really understand, OK, I

don't want to, I don't want to
hear, you know the distilling

process and then the the column
steals and potsy, you know, I

don't want to hear all because I
have no idea what about.

Just tell me the basics now.
Yeah, yeah.

No, that's and one of one of the
best ways, at least for a small

brand, we're very, very small in
terms of comparison to others.

It's events being able to do
what we call liquid tulips,

right?
Trying, trying to get people to

try the product.
Because once somebody approaches

you, you can hopefully
immediately tell if they're one

of those geeks that really want
to know the the, the behind the

scenes and you know the type of
oak and where the oak is coming

from and the style of
distillation and others that

really as you said, have no clue
what Brandy is, is.

You know, it's like Brandy's as
bourbon and events that allow

you to quickly adjust your pitch
essentially because you can

understand OK from the person
coming to your booth what they

are and you know, expand from
there, Keep it short and be very

brief or going to a deep dive,
maybe win a customer that way as

well.
And I can't imagine, I can

imagine following up on this,
like when you mention events,

how they trade events, consumer
events, Lego, is it a mix?

Like how do you do that in your
case?

It's, it's.
It's heavily on consumer, but we

do a lot of the total wine
tastings as well.

So that would be I assume a
trade category.

But yeah, mostly consumers just
because I think it's in my view,

again from a small brand
perspective, it's one of the

best ways where we can introduce
our brand and really connect.

It helps us refine our messaging
that way to you know when when

you pitch you can see what
clicks and really adjust maybe

for the next event and keep
refining your message.

It helps you refine that onion
approach.

So consumer events are heavily
for us.

We started really three years
ago obviously with COVID it

slowed down and then now we're
picking back up.

But it's one of the best ways
that we continue to just get

exposure and then obviously the
the trade ones are heavily on

own accounts where the product
is to help with the pull

through, you know essentially
getting off the shelf so you can

get a reorder from from the
supplier.

I'm.
I'm particularly a big fan of

doing things where it's allowed
obviously in the account where

you are actually sold because I
always have this thing that is a

bit of a wishful thinking when
you go into big events where

then people are interested but
then they don't they have no

idea where to find your product
afterwards.

Not always remember you know
like going to some places that

you know you have a big rooftop
party and then it's like wow, I

love this product.
You know, like I and then I go

back to the rooftop as I have no
never heard never heard of your

product.
You know it was just like a gig

that night.
There's no chance that you can

order and then people don't know
where to find it.

So it's great to hear like the
approach on really going into

the you know the account and
getting the the product helping

the customer to actually
generate velocity and

throughput.
Absolutely.

Other otherwise, they're just
simply not going to reorder.

And we had accounts, you know
that that was a hard lesson.

That's how we learned to do
this.

Nobody came and said Elias, you
know, hey, you should do this.

It was really learning from why
is this account not reordering

again.
And it was because we never

really supported them.
We never went to do a tasting to

educate consumers that walk into
the store.

That was a very painful lesson.
But now we we focus on that.

You know when Total Wine
supports us, we'll go and do a

tasting and support them in
exchange.

It's a mutual thing that you
have to do as a brand owner.

So you have to be careful if
you're small, you know how do

you accommodate that if you have
multiple tastings etcetera.

But yeah, it's it's very, very
important to help those that

support you in small ways.
And also I mean let's say what

comes to my mind listening to
you is also that in some

accounts it may even be that if
you sold or whoever sold, in

that case, you know, like maybe
like there was no focus on on

explaining how to drink the
brand.

You know, in that case, I guess
sometimes it can happen all that

you, you have your disk, you
know, in your mind, but then

maybe the sale was easier or you
focus on other things, maybe you

focus on the Greek side or the
grape side and so on.

And there was no focus on the
occasion.

You know, like how you should
sell it.

You know, like, OK, was it a
digestive?

Is it like an aperitif?
Is it's, you know, like an N?

And and then maybe these people
they just talked to because they

say, yeah, I know what to do
with it.

I know it's also, you know, I
know what to do with it or I

know it's Brandy.
I know what to do with it.

But then in the end, they don't,
you know, And then all of a

sudden it's based on an
assumption that doesn't

materialize.
And then you need to go there

and and.
And remind them and say, OK this

is how how it works and building
on this like do you have a

specific occasion that you focus
on in your product or do you

have one per each product, you
know like if it's an after

dinner or pre dinner or you know
do you have anything like that

in mind or or you keep it more
flexible?

Yeah.
We definitely focus more on per

product because we have such a a
diverse, I guess, umbrella and

it was really again from talking
either to a bartender or talking

to somebody that was looking to
make something.

Each of the products that we
created was created with a

specific type of cocktail.
I think cocktails are very, very

important in today's world,
especially when we see declines

in wine and beer, right.
When you look at those

categories, they're in the
minus.

And I think one of the benefits
that spirits has is cocktails.

That's one of the reasons when
we go to an event we always have

a cocktail.
It's a little mini cocktail that

we just either pre make or make
on the spot that allows the

consumer to actually envision
how to how do I use this

product.
You know, instead of just taking

1/2 an ounce shot and either
burns them or you know whatever

the experience is.
I think that's that's not the

right consumer behavior.
Like very few people would go

home and do that.
A lot of people will try to mix

it in a cocktail.
So I think cocktails are very,

very important.
So we we try to build each of

our products with that in mind
what what is the the the

experience would look like.
For example, we do a honey

Brandy that has a neutral base
from a grapes, so that's more

geared towards cocktail.
It mixes really, really well

with fresh fruits etcetera.
So that focuses on that category

versus like a grappa is more you
know after dinner very, very

Italian, Eastern European,
Greek, you know where you just

want something after a good meal
or something with a dessert.

We we do like essentially in a
fresh grape infused branded.

So that's more of a dessert
pairing combination.

So I think it's really just
trying to find what the consumer

requires and needs maybe they
they have a special event coming

up and recommend that product.
But we always, we always focus

on cocktails first for all of
the products that's kind of the

theme umbrella and then we kind
of split based on requirements

that the the consumer might
have.

Again, hey there's there's a big
dinner coming up.

What do you recommend or what's
a good thing after dinner or

maybe with with dessert as I
mentioned so.

And that's very, that's very
interesting.

But do do you think that your
sales come mainly from from

cocktails or do people tell you
that actually you know, people

drinking meat as well or
depending on the category?

Yeah, so the the, the, yeah, I
don't have a lot of data, but we

do have a newsletter.
So this started again maybe 2-3

years ago where we do a Friday
cocktail.

So we sent out a brand new
cocktail recipe.

Although you know with
newsletters it's always hard.

You don't you don't get the
responses back that you think so

you're like am I typing to a a a
void here.

But when we actually go to
events and people, you know,

some of our regulars come back
and they're like, Oh my God, I

love your Friday cocktail
session because it gives me a

way to mix it up.
You know so they actually

purchase the product and can go
home and look through the the

recipes and make something.
Other people have told me they

do a fancy cocktail Friday where
they use one of our recipes and

they they have friends over so
they make a cocktail out of that

recipe.
So through the newsletter I have

a little bit of glimpse people
in my view love the cocktail

scene.
So it's one of the biggest

weapons that we have at least
from the from the spirit side to

introduce our our product.
So it's it's a great way to just

make it accessible in my view.
Nice, nice, nice and and how

does he work with the fact that
you are multi category now.

So you have, let's say from my
understanding, you have grapes

at the heart of what you do now,
from the winery to the to the

distiller, you bring together
the two worlds of wine and and

distilling depending on the
category.

There must be some categories
that are more kind of like dusty

and some categories that are
more trending.

Now how do you work in
navigating that that kind of

world?
Yeah, absolutely.

We have two very great examples.
I think that's a great question.

So from 1 Spectrum, we have
Brandy as a category.

It is a dusty category.
It's not super, super hot.

It's very difficult to sell
Brandy from big consumers to

small.
You know, it doesn't matter.

It's just a very difficult
category I think to sell.

So you have to educate a little
bit more.

You have to provide, you know,
actually starts as you said, it

starts from wine, so people can
make the connection.

So a lot of wine drinkers
actually prefer Brandy just

because of that connection
between grapes and wine into a

distilled spirit that starts
from there.

And then the other side I think
we have we make a delicious

vermouth and that started really
two years ago and that was

really a trend that I start
seeing with vermouth.

Overall, when I look at bars,
when I look at consumer

behaviors, we like to use a
super local gin, local 4 age

botanicals, but then the
vermouth is usually an imported

vermouth.
So that didn't play very well in

my view.
So being able to just you know

make a Negroni with a local gin
but also a locally made sweet

vermouth, it's very compelling.
So that's that's a very trending

category.
I think vermouth is very, very

underrated and I see a lot of
demand.

I've actually seen more demand
for the vermouth and the Brandy

and you know it's it started
really as a quote UN quote

mistake versus the Brandy was
always, you know, we have to

make a barely it's Brandy and
that's where my heart is.

You have to be able to kind of
ride the wave, you know, because

I think I think Brandy there,
there's legs there and there's

going to be a time for Brandy.
But also you have to you know be

honest and figure out how to pay
your bills at the end of the

day.
So what sells and what?

What is a product that you can
capitalize on?

I mean they both come from wine
and they're both, you know, very

interesting categories.
And I remember back in my 2

exams of the WSCTI, remember I I
didn't know where to expect to

find vermouth.
You know, if if it wasn't the

wine WSCT or in the OR in the
spirit spirit, it's not because

it's like it's kind of like a
hybrid now that brings together

always like it.
I mean I love, I love vermouth.

I always think like it's it's
the best of both worlds now

because it's kind of like bring
them together brings wine

together with the world of
spirits especially used as a

mixer and and and so on.
So and I and I guess going back

to the Brandy that let's say the
non trending category, it's also

how you find back to your
cocktail examples.

How do you find?
Ways to hijack existing cocktail

recipes that could use Brandy
instead of something else.

You know it.
Goes back to cocktails, which is

again, people really need some
introduction to the product.

And then the best way is hey,
you can actually substitute

Brandy for an Old Fashioned or a
Manhattan.

So those are one of my two
favorite cocktails I think.

So those are usually an easy
explainer to the people really

understand on how to you know
use barrel aids, brandies as an

example.
In a cocktail, I think it's is a

is a key ingredient to be able
to educate but also help push

product and make a sale as well.
Building on this, since we're

talking about cocktails, you
know, there is always this thing

whenever I work with you know,
companies or you know, big

companies, motor companies, This
thing about being on the, I call

it the Holy Trinity, the back
bar, beverage menu and then

cocktail menu.
Do you see that?

That's the ultimate driver for
you in being on the cocktail

list?
Is the actual driver of sale.

In Washington, we are allowed to
do direct to consumer.

So for for us DTC has been a
lifesaver just because it allows

us to sell directly to
consumers.

So I would say that that has
been the biggest driver at least

especially with you know the the
last three years with COVID and

everything where a lot of our
accounts for better or worse

pull back.
I don't know if it was a

combination of consumer habits
where people really maybe went

for what they knew more instead
of investing in a new brand or

there was you know back
contracts between bars.

But what we saw as a small brand
is a lot of those bar accounts

pull back during those two
years.

So we pivoted into direct to
consumer.

So that's been the lifesaver.
And then as I mentioned earlier,

we focus more on retail off
trade essentially just because

it's much easier to go to a
total wine, do a tasting and

sell an entire bottle at our
scale at the moment.

But just because we don't have
the resources to go to 10

different bars and trying to get
the bar manager to remember you

because they all, they all, I
think you met you talk about it,

they all have their friends,
right.

And now you're an additional
friend perhaps quote UN quote

friend that they have to
remember and they have to

actually help push your product.
So that relationship requires

much more people on the street
to be able to constantly remind

them how to use the product.
Hopefully if you can get into a

cocktail man, you think that's
one of the biggest drivers.

But because of our scale, we
focus mostly on direct to

consumer and that retail front
just because the amount of

people that we have, it's just
much easier to to go that way.

Now in the future, I do want to
expand into the bars, but I

think it requires a huge
investment from being able to

attend.
Otherwise it will just

attrition, you know, and
essentially you will, you'll

collect dust on the back bar and
nobody will know that you ever

exist.
That's all for today.

Remember that this?
Is A2 part.

Episode 50 and 51 If you enjoyed
it, please read it, comment and

share it with friends, and come
back next week for more insights

about building brands from the
bottom up.