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The watercooler for ideas, opinions, and fun topics as it relates to product, design, and engineering in the world of software...and maybe more. Guess we will find out!
Beat down.
TOA.
I feel like that's, I feel like
that's how our weekend went.
I feel like we've been living
in like a ball of chaos.
And noise.
Like the entire weekend.
But then.
Then.
The live weasels.
Tonight at dinner have like
the most perfect dinner.
And then they.
On their own decide why don't
we have a family group hug and
then we have like this group hug.
So now I don't know how to feel.
That's how they get ya.
That's how they get you.
Like.
Legitimately sour patch kids.
Sour patch kids.
That's parenting.
Panting in a nutshell.
There's like.
It makes me think of one
of the topics that we have.
Which is this idea that, um, there is
no such thing as the romantic version.
Of anything.
Which we will get into.
But this is episode 11.
I have strong opinions.
Weakly held.
I'm will.
This is my lovely wife, Allie.
Let's do.
There is no such thing.
As the romantic version of things.
So I saw this tweet.
I saw this tweet.
Um, Last week.
From friend of the pod,
Travis north Northcott.
Friend of the pod, Travis Northcott.
Where he was retreating.
Something about.
Is that text chain.
Is that not the text chain.
Thread the thread.
It was a thread where it was.
Um, someone talking about how
everyone talks about wanting
quote unquote, a village.
But to be part of a village.
There's a trade-off.
Where.
If you want to have full
control over every parenting
decision in every interaction
and way that your kid is raised.
Yeah.
That's almost antithetical to.
Being part of a village in a real sense.
And it working because the point
is that like everyone helps.
And that means not everyone.
My parent the same way that you do, and
you've got to be able to give up control.
Um, And that got me thinking
about this whole idea of like,
There's romanticized
versions of like everything.
And the reality is, is that
like, Nothing's romantic.
That sounds a bit dramatic.
Well, I think you could argue
that you have to force yourself
to find the romanticism.
And all of it.
You know, You too.
Make yourself feel and think
that what you're doing is.
Romain sizing, whatever
event it could be doing.
Play-Doh with your kids and
you're doing it outside.
And it's just, you're creating
the version that feels to you.
Like it's romantic.
Okay.
You know, but you gotta put in
the effort, it's a mindset thing,
but if you just expect it like.
At face value to be like what's depicted
in your head or with presented to you
on whatever form of media you consume.
And it's just not ever going to work.
You know, like you have to put in the
work to get the product that you want.
But yes.
But that just proves the point.
Like there is no.
There's no romantic, like I think
everything has a romantic version.
I think what you're talking about,
everyone has this idea that.
Okay.
Like, we're going to.
Have this great backyard,
we're going to go out and play
in it and we're going to do.
A B and C, we're going
to play with Play-Doh.
We're going to swing on the swing.
And it's going to be great.
And like the kids are going to love it
and we're going to have a good time.
And like our family is just gonna
like, have such a great time outside
when, but like, The reality is, is
that you're going to go outside.
You're going to start
playing with the Play-Doh.
And then one of your kids
is going to try to eat it.
The other, one's going to play with it
for two seconds and then wander off.
And decide that like the sticks.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Nobody's going to want to do the swings.
But then it's about finding the
joy and the kids playing in the
stakes, because I'll say this.
Our kids.
You know, like all kids, you know,
you think you've got to provide all
this stuff or set up all these things.
And really the bare minimum or
the basic, or the measured, joyful
experiences that they have, for
example, We have been outside and
like, they've got this little climbing.
Damn, you built some swings.
But the best thing in that
backyard happens to be two things.
This random dirt patch that they
take, like trucks and buckets
and spatulas and whatever.
The other day.
I saw Palmer.
She grabbed a handful of it.
And literally like LeBron
James, the dirt in the air.
And then what they call the secret place.
And it's just like these
bushes and in the corner.
The fence in between the
bushes slash trees in the
fence is like a three foot gap.
And it makes it like a little.
The speaker secret place.
So to them, it is romaine.
eScience like, I think they'll look
back and be like, oh, that secret place.
It was just, it was massive.
We felt like we were hidden away.
And so it's remained
size through the eyes.
And again, it's not
necessarily counterpoint.
I like that one.
I liked that one.
I think, I think that's that.
Okay.
That's, that's interesting
because that's what you try to do.
You want your kids to we, I, okay.
Okay, so correction.
They, there is a romantic
version of things.
But we are not the main characters.
Maybe that's what it is.
There's a story.
being written.
But it's not our story.
It's their story.
So our job is to provide
the magic for them.
Exactly.
And I think that's something that.
So good.
Take on what we always say.
Like.
We said from the very beginning, when we
had kids, that this is what we wanted,
this is what we're actively choosing.
And we're putting in the word.
Because we want to be young parents.
There's not a day that goes by.
Or do we try to, or even a decision
or a moment that goes by that we.
Try not to give it 110%.
Whether it be.
Praise or correction or.
Any kind of thing.
We went in.
To parenthood with a mindset.
If we're going to give it our all.
And I think that's what creates.
You don't add some days I don't want to.
Well, that's why.
Some days it's not easy.
And Lord willing.
You've got a great partner.
And you can trade.
Thank cabinet doors.
Somebody will come back behind and gloves.
Um, Come on, man.
How did you pull that?
And you just, you, you put that.
Flatter for me.
I don't man, you just
pulled that one right in.
But okay.
You know, like you have somebody
there that will help you.
Along the way.
And I think that.
Well, this is interesting because I was
planning to take this down like a path.
Because I want to tie that like,
obviously like we're parents and
we care about parenting that.
I think a lot of y'all are
parents and care about parenting.
So this is interesting to you.
At some level, but I think like this
is also true just about everything.
So for instance, in my
career, There's this.
Idea of like, oh, there's a perfect.
Perfect way to build something
like there's this way that you
can build something to where
everything the code is clean.
And everything makes sense and is logical.
Uh, and the reality is, is that.
Like nothing.
Like there, there are
people call them hacks.
There are like shortcuts there.
Uh, constraints on the work that you have
to do to where, like you can't spend.
Forever getting something.
Like the best thing you could
possibly do, you have to do.
The best you can within
a set of constraints.
And then sometimes like you
have to tie those things in with
things that are coming later
in, like before, you know, it.
Your project is no longer.
Perfectly clean.
And so your job is to try and manage.
How can I build new things while like
maintaining and making sure that this.
This project does not get out of
hand because the reality of like
constraints on time and wipes.
I am such a, limitedness a limited
view of this, but it still seems so
subjective because what would be a
hack for you or seem logical to you?
Maybe Whitten seem like
a hack or logical to me.
Right.
Yeah, that's the point.
That's a good point.
I was planning on taking it down this
path, but then you said this thing about.
Um, Like, we're not making
something for ourselves.
Like the romantic, the
romanticism is not for ourselves.
The romanticism is for our children.
Yeah.
So products are for the
people that therefore.
For the people that therefore, so like
your job is to kind of be a little bit of
a wizard of Oz where like, there may be a
lot of pieces and parts moving behind the
scenes, but like, if you can pull it off.
Your goal is to try to make magic for
the person that you're trying to solve
the problem for, even if it may not.
We as the crafts people, the
crafters want it to be perfect.
You know, like you take
joy in how you did it.
And like how it's built, like
the customer doesn't care.
It's like what?
The kids like the kids don't
care that like, Uh, we came up
with this super fun painting.
That is the story of my life as a teacher.
Okay.
a magical, wonderful.
Or even, you know, as long
as they enjoy it, right.
And then there's like this
first reverse where like you
thought you just did something.
Perfect.
Like you set up this perfect lesson plan
or like you had this great feature idea.
And it felt so good.
And like you built this thing,
but then like nobody wanted that.
And like you may have
built something so good.
You may have come up with.
The perfect lesson plan.
And this probably never happened to you.
Allie is a fantastic teacher by the way.
And death, but like, it
like falls on deaf ears.
Like you do something in
like, People don't care.
So it's like, it doesn't matter how
good of a job you did on something.
It's just life.
Sometimes things.
Our slam dunk.
Sometimes they're a flop.
And I think that's just normal.
I think.
That is normal.
The beauty.
Yes.
So I think.
The reason I wanted to talk about
this was because I think there's
like an important realization.
Whether you're going into being a parent.
Whether you're going into marriage,
whether you are somebody who
wants to be an entrepreneur and
starting like a new product.
Or like a business of some kind.
Like you have this romantic idea in
your head about how it's going to be.
Yeah, cause you put
yourself at the end goal.
You put yourself immediately
on the peak, right.
And it can be extremely.
What's the opposite of.
You're good.
I'm not discouraging.
Discouraging ladies and gentlemen.
Sorry.
It can be extremely discouraging when
you get started and you've built up
this romantic version in your head.
And then like the reality is
like, that's not what it is.
And so like, you've got to readjust.
To survive.
And if you can't readjust,
that's when things fail.
Like that's when like, Not going
to go there with parenting, but.
Me and Allie have a lot of strong
opinions that should not be shared
because everyone should parent
the way that they want to parent.
And not listen to us.
Those are not strong opinions.
Weakly held.
Those are strong opinions, privately held.
If you want them feel free to
like talk to us personally.
But there, there are like
ways that like you can.
Everybody's doing the
best that they can do.
And that is all that.
I can be sad that we're all
just trying to, but the idea
is like you can get discouraged
and you can take easy ways out.
Or you can give up.
And that.
With the business.
Or your job.
You know, like there, those can be like
w with businesses and entrepreneurship
and inside projects, like.
The reality is like, that's
not that big of a deal.
Yeah, in the end.
Uh, you can find another job.
You can find the Nova.
I have a project.
You can try again.
With parenting.
And like marriages and relationships,
like that's a lot bigger of a deal.
So, I don't know.
I just thought it'd be worth
bringing up because there's, there's.
There is, as I said, there
is no romantic version.
There's just reality.
And I liked your point of
saying like, you got to find.
You have to realize who the story is for.
And your job is to provide the rope.
Like, I think if you are someone who
will, who is giving to that person,
Or to that project or to that idea.
To who it should be.
Who should be the main
character of the story, like.
That's where you will find
motivation for instance, in marriage.
Like, it's not about me.
And you said like the goal is like, My job
is to provide the romantic story for you.
To provide the life for you.
I bet you like.
That you romanticize.
Like, yeah.
And your job.
You say, Hey, because I know you said.
Y.
Because your mindset
is the exact opposite.
Which is like, you think.
Well, no, I want to make sure that
I'm making sure you feel like you.
You have.
The romantic version of
the story that you want.
Yeah.
And I think that's,
that's the way to succeed.
Cause we both find.
Not all the time.
But because that's like our
foundation, when we get off track,
we can come back on track because
we know that it's not for us.
It's for the other person, same with kids.
Like you can get off track because
you start thinking about how
difficult parenting is for yourself,
but then you have these moments.
A little gray.
Moments with a little huddle and
a 1, 2, 3 king crew that just
bring joy back to your life.
And you realize it's not about me.
And like, yes, life is like chaotic
and difficult, but it's not about me.
It's about them.
I like the sound without this weekend.
I don't even remember anything.
Do you not remember Saturday, man?
Saturday.
Saturday was talking about.
There's this rule, there
is a role and it is fact.
It's proven.
Um, scientific method.
Okay.
Maybe not.
Once your kids read.
Like a certain threshold and the age.
But with our kids being five, two and one.
I feel like we're in the thick of it.
But the FIC, it is scientifically proven.
On the Kings and that if you have a great
morning, With your kids and like family.
What is it?
Newton's law.
There, there needs to be
like some law for parenting.
None of you have a great morning.
Your afternoon and evening.
We'll be hot, garbage, hot.
Hot garbage, like a chaotic.
Warning is hot, garbage.
You're going to have a fatal.
Fantastic afternoon, evening.
And let me tell you
opposite and equal reaction.
Can't believe I forgot about it.
Because you block out painful.
It was so bad.
Okay.
But no, it started off on the best note.
The message.
And I do remember this.
Which there's something to be said
about, like, do you want the hot garbage
morning into finish on a strong note?
Or do you want the Kerscher first?
Like, oh, Start my day while I'm tired.
Perfect.
And then like, okay, give me strength
to get through the end of the day.
Because of what we did Saturday.
So we woke up.
We went to a little
deli here for breakfast.
And then we had to run.
Good breakfast.
So many errands.
And our kids were phenomenal at
the restaurant for breakfast.
And then we had to go to
like hobby lobby, target.
I mean, just like a bunch of places.
And so it kind of evolved into a game of.
Kings versus whatever.
There's whatever errands.
Yeah.
We kept score.
We kept score.
Oh, Mommy gonna win or
the King's gonna win.
And like, it was this like group
mentality of like, heck yeah.
We crushed those errands.
It was like,
Everybody was pumped.
Defeated.
We get back home.
For lunch, we had a public potty break.
Like, let me tell you nothing's.
I can throw a wrench in a day or in a
plan, an outing then like your two year
old, that you're potty training, suddenly
being like, I need to go potty in you're
in the middle of some random store,
but we weathered that it went great.
It was beautiful.
The baby didn't fall asleep in the car.
There was no car.
Now it was like, let me tell
you, y'all already did it.
Y'all all know, nothing
worse than I've been out.
Then a nap that ruins the schedule.
Okay.
The worst.
Then we get home for
lunch and then it was.
I don't even know what happened.
Palmer and Wilson were just so
pumped to be home and it's like,
they used every entrance of.
I can be good.
Energy.
Yeah.
And they had none left
and all that was left.
It was chaos.
And violent and violent.
Not tell you actual violence.
I mean,
our one-year-old Davis he's mean.
Let me tell you why.
He the other day at church,
he was walking down the pew.
He's a baby.
He was walking down.
The pew, looked over, saw his brother
working on his puzzle and literally
just went and slapped the puzzle.
You're putting intent on him and
that just doesn't feel right.
You don't.
I'm telling you, you
can see it in his eyes.
He knows.
So it was nap time.
David's fellas.
Fell asleep in his crib, but
Palmer and Wilson were so loud.
They woke him up.
Wilson went to sleep, but woke
up very early Palmer never took a
nap and was just out of the Metro.
Wow.
I remember.
We were like, okay.
We either put them in water or we take
them outside because that normally helps.
Um, so we took them all outside
and that made things worse.
I don't know how.
Well yells across the backyard
and says, what's that thing.
If you have a good morning, nailed it.
Going to have a bad afternoon.
Well, We had it in spades that.
I mean of the dog and the fire.
Yeah.
We made it.
And we made it Sunday was better.
Yeah.
And that wraps it up.
I think that we can put a bow on it.
Nothing's romantic.
You gotta figure out who the stories for.
And focus on giving to them.
Try to give the romantic
story to somebody else.
And then I think you find.
I think you find your peace
and your motivation from that.
Tie a bow on it.
All right.
Crushed it.
Crushed it.
Speaking of pressure in it.
All right.
I'm about to ruin something for y'all
because Allie ruined something for me.
I think we need to pull it up.
See if you can try to find it.
All right.
I know.
Some of y'all might not
have, but a lot of you have.
Sound machines for your kids.
And it plays.
The sound of rain.
You know, like the.
The pitter patter.
I've heard people, you know, they just
do like the white noise sound like.
Does that, is that where we went on.
And we didn't go wrong
or keep the love it.
But it's like now, like, you
know, when like you, you hear
something or see something.
And then it ruins something forever.
This is that.
So Allie shows me this tick tock.
It's fun.
It's fun.
No.
Alli shows.
Allie shows me this tick tock.
Where they said.
You know the sound of rain
from your sound machine.
Right here.
Okay.
What is there's text on it?
Let's read the text first.
My daughter asks what now
you kind of ruined it.
Cause you said.
Okay.
And it says it's bedtime.
My daughter asked me to play
her bacon sounds to fall asleep.
It took me at the moment.
To realize that she meant.
Rain.
I can't unhear bacon cooking now.
Okay.
And then there's this tick tock
with the sound of bacon cooking.
Oh, here we go.
It's cooking bacon.
Can you tell me.
I mean forever ruined.
Now all of our kids are falling
asleep to the sound of frying bacon.
There.
The worst that it could be worse.
But it was just like hilarious
when you showed it to me.
I was like this and it's just too perfect.
It's great.
That's great.
All right.
One more topic.
Why not.
I know, I just want to talk
about this one real quick.
Okay.
Because it, um, it's not going to
take long, cause I don't know if
we'll have a ton to say about it, but
I thought it was very interesting.
And the way.
Thanks babe.
It's 8:00 PM on a Monday
when we're doing this.
Get what you get.
Okay.
Provision.
Is this good shop,
this coffee shop in Fairhope,
which is like down on the bay.
I'm like the Gulf coast of Alabama.
Um, the mobile bay.
We love going here.
It's like this little beach beachy bay EA.
Downtown.
And they have this coffee
shop called provision.
And had this coffee.
It was an iced and hot or only iced.
I stand hotter than hot.
I hope we're talking about.
The orient, we're talking
about the Oreo dream coffee.
So many copy.
To kind of sores.
I don't know, but in case y'all,
I mean, y'all already know.
We might like coffee.
I need them to figure out and tell me.
Um, Jesse make that Jesse.
I don't know, but you would
know him from Twitter Irwin.
Uh, the guy with the pink.
That's the topic.
I do have a PA.
Jessie.
I just realized we have
matching pink anyway.
All right.
Back on target.
He like grinds his own coffee,
like makes it all himself.
He's a pro.
All right.
Um, And they had this Oreo
coffee and it was so good.
So good.
And they made it themselves.
Like they put the Oreos in like the cream
the night, I guess the night before.
Like Auria milk.
And they soaked up.
Oreo in the creamer.
And then they put like
crumbles of warrior in it.
Long story short, everything.
It was everything.
But Allie.
Goes down to Fairhope without me.
Which.
Already salty about the moving on.
Wonderful.
All right.
And she comes back and then delivers.
Like bad news on top of the fact
that I didn't get bigger with her.
It was no Oreo dream coffee.
No.
Oreo dream copy.
They removed it.
They removed it.
And.
I was taking a shower.
And I was thinking about it.
Uh,
it was may, it may have been.
It may have been the shack.
It may have been the shower water.
It may have been tears.
We won't, we will never know.
But I was thinking about how the coffee
was gone and it made me think about.
The fact that they probably removed
it because they got so popular.
I think that is the opposite.
One second.
Let me, let me, let me explain.
Did you all in eight years?
They got so popular, they had
to try and scale the business.
And the Oreo coffee.
Was wait, just let me finish.
Let me finish.
Everybody else is shaking their heads.
Do.
It was too labor intensive.
No.
One sec.
Let me.
It was too labor-intensive
it took too much time.
The margins were not high enough on
it and they were not making money.
And that's the only
thing people wanted way.
Way too much interest in.
If this happens, this happens
in like a ton of businesses.
To make your coffee shop.
You make your name, doing something.
In it.
Started it wasn't, but it
was their best something, but
they removed it from the menu.
That's something.
Earlier, you didn't tell me that
Oreo coffee wasn't at their best.
But can you name like six other
things you've tried there?
Nope, literally only that Oreo coffee and.
Maybe a pastry.
Okay.
I lived for that coffee and I
know everyone else, like that's
what put them on the map.
They were like, They went viral and it
was because they had this Oreo coffee.
Go viral.
Because we didn't know about it until
we saw it all over social media.
Anyone.
Anyway.
This is
telling you.
But this happens with a lot of there's
this like concept with businesses where
it says do things that don't scale.
Which is this idea of like, yes,
when you're trying to start getting
your business off the ground, you
do all these things that are like
very labor-intensive and you don't
make your money back on them.
But then when you like start
getting bigger and you start
getting momentum in the market.
Then, like you have to, you
stop doing those things cause
you're losing money doing.
And you don't need that
anymore to continue growing.
I think that's putting
a whole lot of weight.
On a magical example, Coffee.
Because I'm going to go with.
It's seasonal.
We went in November.
And had the Oreo coffee and I
went in July again and it was
like, Tropical, I guess what you.
We could do.
We're going to test this theory.
We're going next month.
We're going, and we're
going to find out if it's.
If I'm right.
Hold on.
She's right.
I'm going to bet it's seasonal in
this whole product to scale thing.
Okay.
So.
Whether or not, that's the case.
The garbage take.
It's not hot garbage, because that's real.
The only reason I'm going to
mention this is because I'm going
to look at their menu right now.
Go for it.
All right.
You ramble on.
Tell me I'm wrong.
I'm not rambling.
I'm dropping knowledge bombs.
I'm sharing you on just kidding.
But I do want to talk about this
for a minute, because it's something
that I've thought about with.
A lot of products where there's,
there are a lot of products.
That.
Made their mark doing something.
And then because they scaled.
Is it on there?
It's not, but.
What do they have instead?
Tara.
Uh, nah.
To love.
We loved him.
Is that a salted pistachio law.
Pumpkin.
But there is no Oreo.
Like, can we all agree that
these are seasonal flavors?
Those are okay.
So you may have.
You may have a nugget.
Oreos, Ethan.
But what is even Oreo season?
Oreo season is year round.
All the time.
So anyway.
Also a real quick shout out for Oreos.
If you've never had a birthday cake or.
That's a good shout out.
This is my number one
piece of advice to you.
We should be sponsored by.
Your nearest store.
Get you a pack of birthday cake
Oreos, and you can thank me later.
I think we'd have really good ad spots.
If we got sponsors.
We're really good ads.
If you're okay.
I can't give away all of my secrets snags.
Okay.
I mean, they're not secret.
We'll drop it.
We'll drop one birthday cake Oreos.
Birthday cake Oreos, big win.
We are big snackers so
we could drop some snack.
Every episode we can
drop one, probably snack.
Snack.
What did you just bring.
Wow.
We named this podcast.
Snack.
Heck no, we're not making a snack
only podcast crush that man.
Probably in like five episodes.
You'd share everything all at once
and then be like, what do I do now?
What is that product?
Removal.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly then you'd start going
corporate, but that's the point?
There are businesses that do stuff.
That puts them on the map
and is why people love them.
And then they start getting bigger.
And in the name of scale.
They like take the parts that were
actually great about their product
and had heart about their product.
And they remove them to try and
make margins bigger and better
and to grow bigger and better.
And then they just get awful.
And like, I feel like there's
this chart where it's like, oh,
we're growing, we're growing.
Let's try to hypergrowth it by cutting
all these things and making more money.
And then like they eventually
clapped heaven, like falling.
Like nobody loves them anymore.
Because they gave up what made them them.
Yeah.
I just wish he didn't use the Oreo.
Coffee as the example.
But that's what made me think about it.
That's what made me think about it?
Cause it just made me think like,
well, like what if they removed it?
Because they're like, oh
man, this is so much effort.
We don't make good margins on this
drink and everyone keeps ordering it.
So let's just remove it and do stuff.
That's more cost-effective.
I double dog.
Dare you.
Ask.
You think that barista makes
any decisions on like how that
business, how the product is run.
I'm going to look that barista
in the eye and ask them that.
And they're just going to
look at me and be like,
Like you get out.
Yeah.
You can leave.
I don't know, man.
I'll turn my back and be like,
And he'll be like, there'll
be like, I don't know, man.
I'm like 17.
I get what you're saying.
You just didn't pick the writing thing.
I'm trying to find next time.
A good example, but I probably
won't bring this topic up again.
It was like, no, it's tainted.
A little salty.
Um, she has a little salty.
Let me.
Okay.
So the other day, Allie,
Allie looks at me the other.
It's just not.
This does, she goes, she looks at me
and she says, If I were a cracker.
I think I'd be assault team.
First of all.
Assault team, like come out.
And she goes, you know,
a little salty classic.
To which I die laughing.
And I think we can all agree based
on her interactions on Twitter.
She is not just a little salty.
She's a lot salty.
Okay.
But.
She has classes.
Okay.
So tell me a Hayden on the salting man.
So my wife.
My wife.
The salt team.
A little salty classic.
Love you.
I mean.
I'm okay with it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't even know what happened.
We talked about romanticism.
Yeah.
No.
No man.
Bacon sounds.
And most importantly, Oreo
coffee, birthday cake gory.
Okay.
Whatever.
I'm just saying.
Okay, have a good night.