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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
In product marketing,
there's a moment that
separates reactive teams
from strategic ones.
It's the moment when product
says, "Hey, we're launching
next week. Ready? Go."
And everyone scrambles.
No clear definition of
success, no clarity between
release and launch, no
agreement on who owns what,
and somehow PMMs are expected
to just make it happen.
Today, we're talking about one
of the most transformational
things a product marketer
can do, rebuild the entire
go-to-market function.
Not tweaking it or
optimizing it, rebuilding it.
With that, it is my
pleasure to have Doug
Kimball on the show.
Doug is one of the best
PMMs in the business.
Let me tell you why.
He successfully built and
managed global marketing and
product marketing teams in
multiple companies, helped
plan and deliver several
global field kickoffs, and
flipped product launches
on their head using the
Pragmatic Institute principles
while improving pipeline
impact, team collaboration,
and lead development.
And most recently, he
has been delivering his
expertise to the masses.
He just published a
book on upleveling B2B
positioning and messaging.
It's called, "So What? Why?
Who Cares?" Check it out.
You can find it on Amazon.
Oh, and if that weren't
cool enough, he has
also been training and
teaching Brazilian jujitsu
for more than 18 years.
Doug, it's amazing to
have you on the show.
Thank you.
I may have to pause for the
blushing part of this, but,
uh, thank you for that intro.
I've had an amazing
fortunate career.
I'm just happy to be
here, so thank you.
So cool, and, um, I'll
have to pick your brain
on the jujitsu piece.
We've been thinking
about trying that
out for our daughter.
I just feel like it's
something every kid should do.
Highly recommend.
All right, let's
dive right in.
So bring our listeners up to
be, up to speed a little bit.
You currently work
at Digital Science.
What do they do exactly?
G-good question.
A lot of people don't,
don't know that one.
So we are a-- Digital Science
is a company that basically
has a lot of B2C and B2B
focus, looking at how to help
bring research and information
to market, which there's
a lot of ways into that.
But we focus on academics,
funder, funders, um,
not-for-profit, government,
uh, publishers, B2C, and
really it's about bringing
and streamlining the
research process to market.
And I have the privilege,
I enjoy managing their
product marketing team.
Been there since August
Awesome.
It's helpful to have some
of the context about the
company itself because the
first segment of our show
is the case study, and the
case study is exactly about
rebuilding the go-to-market
function at, your current
place at Digital Science.
So, let's dig a little
deeper into that now.
So in the first segment of our
show, we're gonna do this case
study, right, of rebuilding
the go-to-market function,
and it's so meaningful
because it sits exactly at
the intersection of strategy
and influence and ultimately
operational excellence.
So take us back for a minute.
What was happening when you
first joined Digital Science?
Controlled chaos.
they had gone through--
They've gone through a
lot of acquisitions in the
last several years, and in
the beginning of twenty--
twenty twenty-five, they'd
gone through what they
call Evolve and kind of
tried to merge a bunch of
different units together.
We had disparate
marketing teams,
disparate product teams.
There really wasn't
a cohesive part.
So they, they did a very
good job of trying to
put that all together.
But when you have five
different segments and
you've got products that
go across segments and some
that are segment-oriented
only, there's a lot of,
uh, challenges going on.
Again, I'm not trying
to be negative.
It was just more, you
know, the usual chaos
It's more sophisticated, yeah.
Exactly.
what was really cool,
and one of the reasons
I was interested, is
they do a lot of really
innovative stuff there.
the ability to, for example,
track where a researcher might
be cited in a publication
someplace or track patent
information, things I really
hadn't thought about before.
Like, that's really
important stuff they do.
but the challenge was
that these business units
weren't always really
working well together.
We did a lot of
product launches.
I mean, more product
launches on average.
Companies our size, we were
doing twice as many product
launches than most companies.
So, when I talk about
launch, it wasn't just launch
sometimes as it was a release.
"Hey, we're gonna
release this.
Let's make a PR." I'm
like, "Well, that's not
really the same thing as
a launch." So part of it
was me just getting them
to understand that, release
and launch and go-to-market,
there is a little bit of a
difference apiece on that.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's, it's so funny you
mention that because I feel
like that's happened, every
PMM out there can attest to
experiencing that happen,
is what I'm trying to say.
So when launch means something
different to everyone, and
you don't really have a
go-to-market function when
you're doing that, when
everyone kind of is speaking
a different language.
so tell a little bit more
about specifically, like,
what was, what do you think
was broken in that situation?
The first thing that was
identified as broken was
that product owned the
commercial part of launch.
So product would say,
"We're gonna release XYZ
product feature name,
whatever it's gonna be
on April fifteenth." Why?
There wasn't really a plan.
It was more, "Well,
we're done, so we're
going to release it."
And again, that's going back
to the release versus launch,
which Again, I, I can't,
uh, be difficult about that.
A lot of companies do that.
They confuse release
versus launch.
So one of the first things
that I pushed in there was
saying, "No, marketing,
specifically product
marketing, needs to be the
one that owns the commercial
decision to make a launch."
We're the ones, as you
know just as well as I do,
that make all the pre- and
post-launch, especially
the post-launch people,
get things successful.
And if we're not involved
in that, if we're just being
tossed over the, the fence
and say, "Go launch, run,"
we're gonna run really fast
in a lot of wrong directions.
So, the other thing I started
asking about was basically,
why are we doing this launch?
Is there a particular
audience we're going after?
Are we trying to
prevent churn?
Do we have a new competitive
response we wanna do?
All those different
reasons of what is the,
the reason behind this?
I like this new
product feature.
That's not enough to
make a launch out of it.
This is gonna help us to push
back a competitive incursion.
Now I'm listening.
Or this is a major enhancement
to our AI capabilities and
gonna differentiate us.
Now we're doing something.
So we really didn't have
this, um, shared definition
of what success looked
like from a launch.
It was more we have released
it and we have launched and
we have made noise, and then
we kind of paused there.
So that was the... one of the
biggest things I think that
was, was broken beforehand.
Yeah.
Yes, yes.
So you have this, like,
lack of clarity, lack of
alignment, a- and then you
already mentioned right
away, like, ownership.
so now talk a little bit
about, like, the task at hand.
You know, at what point did
you realize, like, "Okay,
this isn't something we
need to tweak. Need, we need
to actually rebuild this"?
Yeah.
seeing a couple of launches
that got pushed out while
I was still coming on board
that, again, I don't wanna
say nothing has failed.
The, the company's quite
successful, doing great
things, but we don't
want a launch to do okay.
You know, we want a launch
to really just kick butt
and make some serious noise
and drive leads and drive
awareness and call it, you
know, we all want revenue.
And I started asking a lot
of questions and meeting
with the sales teams, the
product marketing team--
sorry, product management
team, leadership, and just
asking these questions of
what it was it that we wanted
to get out of a launch, what
that meant and what release
meant to them, and realizing
that we weren't doing enough
before a launch to have
things planned effectively,
and we weren't doing things
as well after a launch for
them to have true impact, uh,
from the market and drive a
commercial impact to that.
So it, it really is just me.
I mean, I'm very good
at asking questions.
Sometimes they're good,
sometimes they're dumb.
but I'd rather...
No such thing as
a dumb question.
I like that.
Uh, I'd rather be persistent
and, get the answer to a
question and then, then,
okay, what's the second
level of that question?
And okay, great, now I
understand that you and I
are not speaking the same
language when it comes down to
the answer to this question,
and here's what I define
this based on my- You know,
15-plus years of product
marketing as a launch, as
a commercial success, uh,
here's what you define that.
And then looking at it
from what are the revenue
goals that we're trying
to accomplish, because
again, a go-to-market
should drive revenue.
Are we mapping that back?
And so it was just a
lot of questions, a
lot of conversation.
But also because as I said,
we were kind of a, not a
cohesive product marketing
team when I came on door-
board just because of
the situation, was to...
I had to rebuild the
go-to-market function and
also define what product
marketing is, what we do.
What we don't do was just as
critical as anything else,
and then start to develop
those processes around how
we bring a product to market.
All the-- Everything from
the, "I have a product
release to talk about,"
to, "I'm nurturing the
flows 90 days later."
Yeah.
You make it sound easy by
saying, "Yeah, just rebuilt
the go-to-market function,"
you know?
No big deal.
an hour.
hours.
All right, guys, we're done.
But seriously, this is where
a lot of PMMs get stuck,
and I'm sure there's a lot
of differing of opinions or
approaches out there around,
like, how do you do this?
But I guess, like, break
down for me, like, your plan
of action and how you, how
you actually, like, did it.
You don't have to-- We're not
gonna go into the specifics
quite yet, obviously.
We're gonna build a
playbook together in just
a, in just a moment here.
But r-real quick, like,
just kind of bullet point,
like, what, what the
action was, the plan of
action to,
to
was, again, like I, I
always go back to the
questions because that's
just what I'm good at.
but it was really
just like... Okay.
So to, to, you know,
to your point, it was
not an easy thing.
It was not a short thing.
There's so many stakeholders
because, again, we have five
segments in the organization.
We've got product and we've
got sales, who are my let's
call my key audiences, and
then I have my boss as well.
I spent a lot of time with
each of the stakeholders
for each of those groups,
basically saying: What is it
d- that you are looking for
when it comes to defining
a successful product
launch or a go-to-market?
And go-to-market and
launch in the conversations
were treated kind of a
similar conversation.
and really, you know,
where are we now?
What are we doing now that,
that is, is our kind of
our state of, our state
of the union, the, the
regular thing we're doing?
What's working?
And like I said, some things
were working very well.
With the, the person who was
managing this and the project
manag- product management
office, fantastic job.
Uh, but what wasn't working?
And a lot of what wasn't
working was, I mean,
sales wasn't being
notified early enough.
Pre-sales wasn't getting
the information in order
to prepare for a demo.
Uh, lead generation or
demand, the growth marketing
teams weren't being fed
information in order
to plan for campaigns.
You know, I could go
on and on about that.
And once I understood all
that, again, like I said, I
came back and said, "Product
marketing is gonna be the
ones owning the decision
to go live." And I put--
During my, my first two
months, I put two launches
on hold because the product
marketer came to me and
said, "Here's where we are.
I wanna launch whatever,
you know, date," which
was like next week.
I said, "Well, do we
have this, this?" "No, we
don't." Like I said, "No,
we are not launching." I,
you know, I made myself
a little unpopular.
I probably still am a little,
but, but it... Again, it's not
about Doug, it's about does
this have a success with that?
this gonna serve the company?
Is it gonna serve
the customer?
And like, we're gonna
try to take the best
action that's going to
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, we talked
about, and, you know, I
don't want, depending if you
want to get into it, but,
you know, we wa- we moved
into-- we tiered launches.
Nothing that's, you
know, dramatically new
and surprising there.
Tiered launches have been
talked about a lot of
these, your great podcasts.
but, you know, I had to
go then say, "Now we've
educated the, the teams on
what a good launch means,
how do we put that in
place?"
so another thing
we did, and again,
nothing, you know,
dramatically unusual for
product launches, is talking
about a tiered framework and
really provide more clarity
around what those were.
Agreed, we had an agreed
through framework,
what assets will
be part of that.
Introduced a new,
basically a framework of
90-60-30, 30-60-90, we
can talk about that later.
Really worked to imple-
improve our product
requirement documents.
So taking that, the so what,
why, who cares framework,
embedding that in there,
putting together a launch
council, and just really
made it much more clear where
stakeholders were going to
be involved in this process.
And, that only took two hours.
You know, as you were,
like right before
you said it actually,
as you were answering some of
my previous questions, I
could actually start to
see the so what, why, who
cares just in how your
brain thinks.
So I just really love that.
you mentioned so much
here that I want to unpack
further, which I know
will come to the playbook,
but first I wanna quickly
ask about stakeholders.
How did you manage their
expectations and like, I guess
with all these big changes
you wanted to make, like was
there, was there pushback,
and just how did you manage
all
of that?
Very fortunate in that the,
uh, uh, I guess her, I'm
not sure exactly her title,
I call her head of product.
She's kind of, she's not
a CPO, she's below...
that reports to the CPO.
She is also newer, new-newer
to the organization.
She is-- She's awesome.
She's a gem, and we have,
we gelled very early on, so
we've got a very good rapport.
Uh, we don't always
agree, but we, uh,
disagree constructively,
if it makes any sense.
So having her on board, and
she and I are very aligned,
uh, she's also gone through
the Pragmatic Institute
training and a lot,
which was helpful.
That was really, really big.
So she was help, able to
help, you know,
go upstream on her
side and, you know,
had the alignment
on my side with
things.
But she also would say,
"You should talk to so and
so forth, and
have those
conversations with that
particular product manager
or that particular product
lead, uh, that pre-sales
person." So there's a lot
of just identifying you
know, who had a, a stick
in the fire that needed to
poke.
Uh, and that was
really important.
But also then going back
and looking again at
the massive amount of
launches we already had
and seeing how they did and
seeing where they did well
and seeing where they didn't
do as well.
So it was really just
about understanding
all the facets of what
happened with the product
launches, releases
and launches to define
where it didn't work.
Yeah, and I could imagine
that as, you know, you're the
new guy in town, and here you
are evaluating past launches.
That could not feel great, I
would imagine, to the person
whose work is being evaluated
from a person who wasn't even
there when it all happened.
So I'm curious, and, and
now, and, and you have
new ideas and thoughts,
and it sounds like you're
lucky that you have a, a
stakeholder who is amenable
and open to hearing you
out and like wanting to
support you, so that's
already a step ahead.
But how did stakeholders
and leadership respond
to you coming in and
doing that?
I got really good
at tap dancing.
Um, overall, I would
say pretty good.
There, you know, there were a
couple of conflicts here and
there that, you know, some
I created some challenges
with, some it was more
miscommunication, here's what
you mean, here's what I mean.
Uh, some just
plain disagreement.
No, we're gonna
do it like that.
and I try to find that
balance between, you know,
being the new guy and
having that honeymoon period
and coming in, "Hey, let's
do this," and full of
ideas and full of energy.
You know, also having been
there, done that a few
times, been on both sides
of that, that I can't just
walk in like the bull in
the China shop and say, "I
have all the right ideas.
We're gonna do it Doug's way,"
'cause it's not Doug's way.
It's, it's our way.
but also having had
several people in the first
three or four months say,
"We think you should be more
pushy," which was weird for
me because it's just not my
style, and I'm used to working
with global organizations.
I had people-- I've had
people say that to me too, and
that's not my style either.
I'm just, I'm a
little bit softer
in my approach.
think there's definitely a
time to do that, and I, I
am all about collaboration,
let's get all in
the same boat going together.
but also I have learned over
the years, sometimes you
just gotta push forward,
you know, knowing that
you're doing what is the
right thing for the
organization, not
for Doug, but for the
organization.
and just, just
really push through.
and, so again, taking it
back to why it
was so important
that product marketers
owned the commercial
launch decision, because
again, we understand what's
going on in the marketing.
We hand- we handle
the messaging.
We're looking at revenue
outcomes.
Not that product market-
managers don't care about
revenue, but we're closer
to that revenue and that
strategic side of things.
So yeah, there was some
education and there was
some little bit of bruised
feelings, and I had to step
back sometimes and say,
"I'd like this, but
I'm gonna get this."
Yeah.
A lot of
compromise.
And I'm sure over, over time
you prove, you kind of earn
trust and you, you prove how
your ideas and your frameworks
are working, and then you,
you get a little more.
That's sometimes that's
just how it works.
so it sounds like, you
know, stepping back here,
you had to, to rebuild this
go-to-market function.
A lot of sophistication,
a lot of like layers of
complexity with all these
different business units,
and it's kind of messy and,
you're in r- your reaction
mode or the, the, the
team is in reaction mode.
Um, and then you've come
in, you did all this
research, you implemented
all of these things.
What happened
in the
end?
Success, honestly.
That's what really kind
of feels good about this
is that, you know, I was
just on a call about an
hour ago with that head of
product I was talking about.
so we, we, we kicked
it off January 1st, so
we have an, an... We,
we-- So let me back up.
That's jumping ahead.
We put together all the
processes, laid them all
out there, documented
them, communicated to the
teams that are gonna be
involved, both on webinars and
on email and pri- in slides.
Uh, I presented to some
of the senior management
to say, "Here's what
the, the short version.
Here's what we're
gonna be doing.
Here's what the
why behind this is.
Here's the value it's gonna
yield." made better role
alignment between what
product managers do and what
product marketers will do.
Still some education
ongoing about that one, but
making a lot of progress.
Uh, put together a launch
council as part of the whole
process so that, you know,
there was the, the key
stakeholders from each group
that needs to be part of
this whole launch success
process were involved.
Kicked the first one off
or early part of January,
um, '20-- this year, 2026.
Uh, and even in just that
first meeting, you're watching
some of the chat come through
and it's like, "This is
what we've been needing
all along.
This is a great way for us to
change our go-to-market
pro..." I mean,
people are saying
that, not product
marketers.
You know, product managers
and other people are saying
positive things in the chat.
You're
like,
"Win. I can go home now."
and also to be very honest,
and this is what I was just
talking to my head
of, head of product
about, 'cause she was, you
know, "Well, you know, I
feel like we're not doing
this. We're not... We're
missing... People are
complaining about this."
And I said, "I agree." I
said, "Remember, 80/20.
Let's get
80% of the things lined up
and we're doing great things,
we're making great progress.
Where we were, where we are
now to where we were four or
five months ago is
hugely improved." I
said, "We have to sit
back and go, 'Okay,
we're making progress
over perfection.
We've, we've chipped
away all the rough parts.
Now we're smoothing
things off.'" So we have to
remind people that we've
made tremendous progress.
We're not a hu-
we're not 100%.
We may never get to 100%,
but we can get a lot
better, then I'm happy.
I love it.
Okay.
So what I wanna do is take
this case study and now
turn it into a playbook.
So, uh, again, just
quickly summarizing here,
we're rebuilding the
go-to-market function.
No easy feat.
so let's say that I'm a PMM,
I just heard your story,
and now you're coaching me
on how I can replicate it.
And if I needed to rebuild
my go-to-market function
in my company, what is step
one What do I need to do
First,
First, put on your-- If you
have experience, first put on
your humble hat, is the best
place I would start, and then
start gathering information.
Uh, because again, if you
walk in as that person
that I know how to fix
everything, you're gonna
get the same response that
most people do.
But understand where are
we now, where do we wanna
be, what's been, been
successful, what's not been
successful, what does good
look like is one of the
things I always go back to.
And how do we-- everything
we do when it comes to
the go-to-market and
the launch change, how
does that end up driving
or impacting or benefiting
revenue or preventing
revenue leakage?
You know, we're
looking at churn.
So start there.
Who are my stakeholders?
Who needs to be involved?
Who should I talk to?
Be data-driven.
I mean, and understand what's
happened well in the past.
If hopefully your CRM is
halfway decent, you can dig
into your CRM information
or at least get some kind
of a launch details back and
use that to plan the future.
Got it.
Okay.
So step one is to
get this state of the
union Dig into the data.
gather information.
is there
anything specific that
you're looking for?
I think you mentioned a couple
of things, but are there
like specific measurements
or signals that you could
be looking for that would
specifically help you
identify like what's broken
within a like go-to-market
function?
Like
Let's take a tier one
launch as a good example.
Um, so we have a tier one
launch, which in, in our
case, it's a big launch.
We're doing big things.
We're gonna make a
lot of noise, a lot
of assets behind that.
And we do this big launch,
maybe we do a webinar, we do
some lead activity, but then
we look back at the leads
that have come in and the,
the, the awareness that have
come in and the click-throughs
that have come in after that.
And if the, if the numbers are
low, and of course, metrics
are going to be defined by
a lot of different things.
If the numbers are low, but
we had a really big deal we
tried to make, then
something got missed.
So that's where looking at the
data is like we tried to...
We made-- This was a powerful
solution, but we didn't do
a good job of engaging the
market before and after the
commercial part of the launch.
We missed something.
So that's one of the
places you can look at for
data is, did it resonate?
we excited launch
and was the market
excited to hear about it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good one to call out.
Okay.
So again, quick recap.
Step one, gather the data.
what's step two?
make sure that.
your product marketers
and your product managers
are hand-in-hand.
they don't have to be
best friends, but they
should be very much
embedded, be, be aligned.
Uh, make sure they know what--
You do this, and I do...
Here's where my job, I hate
to say job stops, but here's
where I stop being involved,
and I hand it off to you.
Uh, clarify again that product
marketing/marketing should own
the commercial part of this.
Make sure that we're the ones
that- That say, "Yes, ready to
go." and you absolutely have
to be involving, involving
sales.
And by that mean, by
that I mean they are
educated, they're aware.
You don't launch something,
then sales goes, "Oh,
hey, what, what's
the pricing on this?"
Or, "What's the messaging?"
Or, "Who's the audience?"
Uh, make sure that they're
involved in all that, and
have an executive sponsor.
That is one of the most
key things so that that way
it's not just the product
marketer saying this, it's
the person sponsoring saying,
"I'm sponsoring this launch.
We've got to get in line here
and get things successful."
Yep.
I love Essentially what it
sounds like you're saying
is establish or reestablish
the product marketing charter.
So I have had to
do this before, and
w- I-- This is so So
I did it at Cisco.
Cisco obviously has been
around for a long time.
There were product marketing
teams ahead that, that were
this portfolio ahead of me.
But when I presented the draft
of a charter, before I
socialized it outwards,
I had product leaders
The VP directors, right?
That I wanted see my first
draft charter before I
socialized it even to my team.
And they, they had some
feedback, but like overall
they were like, "We've
never seen something
like this before.
Like, we love this."
And I think it's because
they're like, "Yes, product
marketing is collaborating.
Yes, of course, we
want you to have a seat
at the table." We just...
You know, I think so.
It's so interesting.
I, I'm glad that
you mentioned it,
I guess is what I'm saying,
because they-- It's not that
they want to exclude product
marketing, but just someone
to come in and really like
own the, uh, function, I
think is actually something
that your PM will appreciate.
Um, there.
Okay.
So now we've got the, we've
gathered the information.
You have your, you know,
people and team alignment.
That was, you know,
your step two.
So let's skip to step
three, like what's next?
We talked about the
tiers, and then we, we,
I'll just, just jumping.
We only, we did a
three-tier level.
I've seen three,
four, and five and,
however, however works for
that particular company.
We only did three, and
then we narrowed down, you
know, one is the biggest.
And here's, we do
all these stuff.
We listed out what went in
there, what kind of assets.
Right now we're continuing
to build that out.
I've got members of my team
that are helping to build out,
you know, here's an example
of the assets that we're gonna
use for a tier one and for a
tier two and for a tier three.
Um, and by the way, I'm
taking... I forget which
guest it was you had that
talked about social swarming,
um, in the launch process.
I'm taking that idea and
I'm building that into
stuff that we're doing.
So see?
You, you bring
value all around.
And so the, the way I looked
at the 30-60-90 again is, and
the, the way I kind of joked
with you earlier in our prep
was looking at how NASA works.
I mean, NASA doesn't just,
you know, have a l- rocket
launched off to the moon and
then walk out of the building
and say, "We're done for
the week." they gotta stay
engaged.
So if we don't do a
good job of making
sure that once we
launch this amazing product
or feature or solution to the
market and keep
in touch with the
audience out there, then we're
not doing a very good job.
and so the structure with
that, that, that 30-60-90,
I think will make a big
difference
in
ongoing flows and engagement
and nurture, but not
just what happens
to drive the, the
interest of the prospect,
but us getting feedback.
You know, we're
putting messages
out there And we check
into that 30 days in.
60 days in.
Is it
resonating?
All right.
What, what feedback
do we take back
in?
And again, now we're
feeding that, doing
that.
feedback loop back up
to say, "This went well.
This needs to be
tweaked
going forward." So it's
really trying to create
a, a, a, a framework
and a feedback
loop.
I
love your rocket analogy.
Like, you don't just, like,
send it off into space and
be like, "All right, cool
launch. See you later."
Yeah,
you measure the,
you know, the orbit
stability and the fuel,
and you track trajectory.
Like, that's all your 30/60/90
or, or 90/60/30, 30/60/90.
And I love that.
it's spread out like that
because so many PMMs launch
it, and then they're like
just onto the next one.
And by doing the feedback,
you get better, you improve,
you figure out how to tweak
things, whether it's messaging
or even product roadmap items.
So I love that.
Going back to leadership,
and I've been doing that, uh,
just in the last few weeks.
I've been presenting to the
chief operating officer.
I'm presenting to the
chief of staff, I think,
next week.
the chief commercial officer,
just kind of making sure they
understand what's going on.
Tried to do some of
this before this all
happened, and there was
some email communication,
but just schedules,
end of year budgeting
didn't happen.
so if I had a
recommendation for a
PMM, ideally do it before
you implement the major
change as opposed to after.
This was situational.
you know, feedback
always important.
We had the buy-in from
pretty much everybody that
was part of the process.
That was very important.
Again, having a very good
partner, it made a big
difference with that.
Uh, and just making
sure people continue
to understand that we
have to let some things
run for a bit before we
start making any changes.
So as opposed to
saying, "Well, it's
not working right." it's,
we're on month two.
You know, we just started
this
Yeah.
you're not even in the
full 90 days of your...
Yeah.
Yeah.
You gotta give it time,
see if it's working.
Okay, I love that.
You socialize it, you
start to gather feedback.
so and then step five.
Is there a step five
Go.
just go.
And, and it, it... And
I, I'm being a little
flippant, but go And making
sure that we tell all the
people that are involved
in the... Oh, sorry, the
people, the teams that are
involved in this, you know,
is, is pre-sales feeling like,
"Okay, cool, we're now getting
information ahead of time that
we weren't getting before, so
now we can do a better job of
supporting sales and getting
demos set up." you know,
does sales feel like they've
got their talk tracks ready?
Does customer service
feel like they can be
able to answer questions
that, are coming in?
You know, are the PMMs and
the PMMs... That's a lot
of Ps. PMs and the PMMs
feeling like they're
working together?
Are we getting
that feedback loop?
Uh, and just go.
and you know, for the
product marketers listening
to this, you know, if
you're a company of
100, you may not need to put
together a launch council.
It may just have to be you
and your PM and a couple
of people and get it
go.
Larger companies,
I do recommend a launch,
a launch council because
you've got a lot more,
you know, just hurdles to go
through, a lot more people to
be bought into that so having
that, and especially that
executive sponsorship, makes
a big difference.
Yeah.
A quick question about
the executive, or sorry,
for the launch council.
How often do you meet?
Who's in it?
And like what kind of
decisions do they
own?
it's... The, as far
as own it is, who is
on it in our case, is
the, the, the person
who's the product
manager for that
particular item, the, uh,
segment leader for that
particular... W- whoever this
had the most impact
in the segment.
Obviously, the product
marketer, the head, the
head of pre-sales for that
particular segment.
So anybody who is going to
be most directly
commercially impacted
by the launch is involved.
Uh, the product product
management officer, the person
who basically is coordinating
all the craziness,
um, from the... More the, the
tick box as opposed to the
product marketer who com- who
mana- manages the commercial
part of that.
I sit in on some of them.
I
try not to 'cause I want
my product marketers
to be the owners of
those
things.
You know, they're the
owners of their world.
Uh, and How often
do they meet is
kind of evolving
at this point.
it's sort of a check-in
sometimes, and they...
Again, from the... What
they're deciding on
is, are we ready to go?
have we, have we ticked the
boxes?
Do we have what
we need?
If we
haven't done so, then
again, that's where you have
the, you know, the, the,
the, leaders on there say,
"Hey, get this stuff done.
You, you, you are responsible
and accountable to move
these things forward.
What's the roadblocks?
How do we eliminate
those?"
Yep.
And then, all of that, I'm
curious, you mentioned earlier
on in our conversation,
you dropped like a, a hint
about PRDs and your team
coming in and to reshape
them, and obviously your
book is coming out, "So
What, Why, Who Cares?" Uh,
can you talk a little bit
about how so what, why, who
cares changed some of those
conversations, like whether
inside the product launch
council or not, but how did
the so what, why, who cares
change some of those internal
conversations?
Yeah, definitely.
And that's-- It's been
really
kind of fun to watch that
evolution happen.
It's still it's still
a work in progress, but
in-instead of always having
PRDs come in that were just
a
feature function,
technical dump written as a
product manager
is going to write.
And again, there's no
criticism at all in there.
It's just how, that's
how they think and how
they write.
But because we didn't have
as much early collaboration
back, back then between
the product manager and
the product marketer,
what came out of the PRD
was sort of mildly
massaged and
turned into
messaging.
Now, with the So What, Why,
Who Cares framework that
the
product marketers are
using, they're translating
that much better
into
outcome-based messaging.
But my product
leader is also very
comfortable with me
going back to the product
management team and saying,
"Here's how we think.
Here's how product
marketers like to
understand messaging,"
so that what they take
and put into the PRD is
pre-messaging prepped,
for lack of a better word.
And they're think
It does this.
Okay, cool.
So what that it does that?
And
think that's-- Again,
we're not there yet.
We're making
progress, for sure.
and it's just helped them,
helped the product managers
to be more aware that you
have to focus it on is what a
confused prospect might want
to understand, not what we
as informed technical people
understand.
Yeah, sure.
okay.
So I wanna really
quickly recap, uh, what
I think the steps were.
So one is just to gather
information, talk to
people, dig into data.
Two was to align the team and
make sure everybody's on the
same page about who does what.
Three is apply your
launch framework.
That's where the like
90/60/30,
30/60/90 framework and the
so what, why, who cares
framework really comes into
play.
And then you socialize
it, get feedback, and then
you execute while still
doing
the feedback.
Um, so I love
that.
My last question for
you, just for this
segment of the
show, is what advice do
you have for, one piece of
advice, so just one, one, one
big takeaway, what is it
for a PMM who is rebuilding
the go-to-market function?
Be confident in your knowledge
of being customer-facing
because we are the strategic
people who don't just come
back and say, "Here is
information." We should
be providing insights
and recommendations to
give guidance on that.
And by, if I sum- if I
try to summarize that
means don't launch just
because we think we should.
Launch because there's a
reason and a commercial
impact we're gonna have to
drive revenue so that we
demonstrate our, our ability
to impact revenue decisions.
Mm-hmm, and a lot of that
comes from knowing the
business and having that
context and understanding the
customer and being really
confident in that.
Yep.
So helpful.
I love it.
Okay, we're wrapping
up the
case study playbook
segment of the show, and
now it's time for the next
segment of the show, which is
"
so fun.
It's the messaging critique.
So this is where,
Doug, you and I as
marketing, product marketing
experts get to analyze real
world messaging.
the rules of
this are, one, to pick a
company that either you
know the target
audience really
well or you
are the target audience.
Wouldn't be fair to
critique messaging
on a company where we have no
idea that, who their target
audience is or what they do.
and then first tell me
what stood out to you
about the messaging, what
you're loving about it.
Maybe share something y-
that you wish the
PMM would've considered
or done differently.
And then finally, we're
gonna just brainstorm
a little bit and
give that PMM some good
ideas on how they can
take it to the next level.
So without further
ado, yeah,
reveal the company that we
will be
looking at
today.
The company is called,
they're called OppTrack,
So O-P-P Track.
Uh, and it's
either .com or .io.
I
think it's .com.
And they are
essentially a
win-loss and competitive
intelligence smaller
startup company.
And I picked them.
for a couple of reasons.
Definitely I'm the
target audience.
I know a decent
amount about win-loss.
In fact, I just presented
at the Austin conference
about win-loss.
They reached out
to me, which is
how I became aware of them,
not to sell me initially,
but to gather and
ask my feedback as a startup.
So I'm like, "Well,
that was kind of an
interesting way to approach
that." So I give them a
lot of respect for that.
So is it optrack.io?
So what I, what I found
when I Google searched
it is O-P, one P,
O-P-T-R-A-C,
Yeah, two
Ps. Yeah, For, for so for,
I think Opportunity Track.
Uh, try opportunity...
opptrack.com.
okay.
So it's optrack.io
doesn't work.
Okay, let me try optrack.com.
Just for our folks
who may wanna follow
along, um, I found them.
There they are,
O-P-P-T-R-A-C-K.com.
I found them.
Okay.
What
is standing out to you
from their messaging?
And before
And before I tell you
the goods, I'll have
to give them also
credit because during our
conversations with them,
you know, I was looking
through the tool, I was
pretty, you know,
impressed with what I saw.
But they also, you know,
"What, what do you think?" I'm
like, "Well," I said, "I'm not
sure what you guys do yet."
And because what
they there on their,
their, their main page before,
it was not, wasn't bad, it
just was very-- it was much
more technical language.
So I gave them a
bit of feedback.
So I give them a
lot of
credit, and even in
the last three or four
days, they've made
some changes So what stands
out to now open up the
page, and I've got no
question what
they do.
They do competitive and
win-loss for lean go-to-market
teams.
Now, I
don't love that it says
competitive win-loss agents
for lean G- GTM teams, but
that's just a Doug style
thing, 'cause agents could
be any number of things.
I know it's probably
agentic AI,
et cetera.
But
Yeah.
me a bit of like,
what does that
mean?
Little bit of guessing.
What's working for me is
that they clearly state
their ICP, like right there
in the header.
It, it stands out, and
then underneath that it.
says, you know, what,
OpTrack is a win-loss program
that does... it.
does certain
things, and then it
tells you the agents
use these to
align your messaging,
protect deals.
And again, they've already
started, in my mind,
done some of the so what,
why, and who cares in
there because they've
said what it does, who
it's targeted for, to
your point, the ICP.
It's giving a decent sense
of, um, alignment with
somebody like myself
who's coming in and
saying, I'm struggling
getting good comp- competitive
intelligence insights.
I'm struggling knowing what
to do with the win-loss
details or how to get
that." Um, so I like that.
And the fact that it
says agents, when I
take my anti-AI thought o- off
hat for a minute, means
maybe I don't have
to do as much work.
So that's kind of
intriguing too.
But it, it does give me a
bit of an intrigue as well
as a dislike of agents.
That's just a Doug
thing.
Yeah, I get it.
Yeah, you're like, "I'm
willing to look even
though I'm... got a little
bit of suss about anything
with agents and AI." I get it.
Okay.
So what then is-- what do
you wish the PMM would've
considered differently?
I'm gonna guess that it
has something to do with
agents, but maybe not.
Maybe
not.
well, I, I don't know if
They have a PM, so that's
another very good question.
I, I, think if I, was to, to,
rip it apart even more, is to
tell me some more of the why.
I mean, they tell me what I
can do, which is good, and
there is a little bit of a why
in there, but I'm missing...
They go from the, the
what to how it
does it, which is
cool.
Uh, it's nice to know the
behind-the-scenes piece, and
it's got little
diagrams in there.
But for me, it's also
important to know more why
this resonates with me as a
person looking for more
information about win-loss
programs to gather all
that.
Why is OpTrack better,
different, faster,
stronger, whatever it is,
more useful than fill
in the blank other
competitive intelligence
or win-loss programs?
Um, that me is
really important
because, uh,
as I'm sure you've
seen, there's a
lot of people out
there doing these
programs.
Why, why this one?
Or why do I add you
to my tech stack?
Or why do I replace
something in my tech stack?
It would be helpful.
Yeah.
Yeah, Yeah, The like com-
competitive alternative,
whether the alternative is
a sol- software solution or
like a spreadsheet, right
Um, yeah, so I definitely
agree with you.
They do a lot of educating,
like education, educating on
like what their solution is
and what it does and what it
can do, but they don't-- I,
I'm struggling to see, well,
what is your differentiator?
Um, so I, I agree with you.
I think that's really smart.
Okay.
So how can this product
marketer or just marketer
or founder, whoever, how can
they take their messaging
storytelling to the
next level?
my book?
No, sorry, that was too easy.
Uh, I think taking their,
their messaging and
their, their framework to
the next level
really is to just
put yourself in your
prospect's shoes as
much as possible.
Don't make assumptions
that they know exactly
why they're going
to
look at your site,
whether they've come across
it through LinkedIn or
an outreach.
What, what's gonna
make me want to engage?
So, okay, cool.
I, I see what you do.
This is very interesting.
I see that.
But again, I go back to
the, the why I should care.
I think they do
a decent job of
nailing the you
know, the, the persona,
like you said, the
ICP and the what.
It's just that
in-between piece of
how do I not-- how
do you not sound like
every other win-loss
company out there
and give me that
emotional...
That's one
thing I think,
there's not a lot of
emotion in
here.
There's not a lot of
pain point in here.
It's, it's very good
They, like, They,
I like the education
piece,
but emotion and pain
point give me.
urgency.
you know?
Create some FOMO in me.
Like, oh geez, if I don't
use this not gonna get access
to blah, blah, blah, blah.
Or I can't answer
these questions or
inform my sales teams.
Make me feel like I'm
not a I hate to say that.
Not that, make me feel
I'm not doing a good
job, but You know,
what I
mean.
Right.
There's not like a
sense of urgency.
Like there's no
sense of urgency.
no-- it doesn't tell
me why I need this now.
It doesn't... Not
that they should like,
you know, invoke
anxiety or anything.
Like you could, you could
shoot for another emotion
like joy or, you know, any,
that, that sort of thing.
So I totally agree with you.
Um, but overall it looks
like, especially after
conversations that you've
had with them, that they're,
they're continuing to
evolve their messaging.
Um, and just wanted to
say like messaging is
so hard, especially if
you don't have a product
marketer, it is so hard.
Yeah.
So, uh, but you know,
shout out to OpTrack.
You know, I think you guys
are clearly continuing
to iterate and, um, it
looks like you maybe
have a
cool
Yeah.
it's, I, I've been but
they've, they've made changes
just based on what I've
talked to the people too.
I'm like, "This is pretty
good." This, they're
getting better, so I think
it's
good.
Yeah.
Keep the evolution going.
That's where everything,
everything just of
continues to
evolve and iterate.
All right.
So Doug, I, one thing I
always like to do on this
podcast is leave time
for a moment of gratitude
Because in product
marketing, maybe in, in
just life in general,
none of us get here alone.
We are always
learning from each
other and building off
of each other's work,
and we're all better
for
it.
So before we wrap
up,
I just wanted to
say a genuine thank
you for your time
and insights today,
um,
and all the preparation
that, you've done for
the episode today.
So thank you so
much.
Really
it's been a pleasure.
I've been looking forward
to this, uh, since I
first listened to your
podcast and waved my
hand at you and you said
yes.
I'm like, "Yay,
this is fun."
Aw.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So I wanna turn it
over to you, though.
Like, who are some PMMs
that you maybe wanna shout
out who've helped, you
know make a real impact on
your career?
It's
Yeah.
It would be a very long list
if I went through them all.
I'll, I'll focus on two.
Uh, one is actually the
person that inspired me
with-- to write the book
because he gave me the
framework, Prashant Bhatia,
who I've worked for three
times as a VP, as even
as a CMO, um, really
upleveled my product marketing
abilities, my mindset, my
thinking, gave me a lot
of opportunities to do
stuff
that I look back
now, I'm like, "That
was really cool." so
that was, I mean, a
great leader, great
person, good friend,
just very inspirational.
And then a product
marketer who worked for me
for four years,
uh, Ian Pittock, based in the
UK, who--
I mean, just his style
gave me different ways
to
think about things and to
talk about and,
and message things.
So, um, between Prashant
and, Ba- and, you know, Ian,
just two people I
look back as having
really solid impacts on
my overall
product marketing journey.
Um, couple other people,
people I wanna call out,
and I know that
she's been called out
before, but Hattie.
I mean, reason
I wanna call out
Hattie, she hasn't
done as much to inspire
my
product marketing
journey, but she's doing
so
much to inspire
others.
I just love that
because it's just,
it's just that giving
and helping other
people get
better, you know, just as I
told...
generosity.
Yeah.
And then Michelle, who I'm
not gonna try and pronounce.
Michelle Nieberding,
I hope I'm
saying that.
Yes.
Thank you.
Um, because, uh, again, the
stuff she puts out on AI,
again, that unselfish sharing
of stuff and information.
I mean, what she posted
about lovable made me
completely revise my
website for my
book that just--
I mean, I
keep saying, every
lovable just blows me
away.
Without her making about that,
I would probably spend a few
hundred, probably $1,000 on a
website that I'm now, because
of
her sharing as a product
marketer to make other
Yeah.
better.
Yeah.
And,
oh, And at the risk of being
self-serving, this
lady named Elle.
I mean, again,
I've listened to
your pod- I, sorry.
I
mean that sincerely.
I've listened to your
podcasts, and again,
you're doing something
that,
again, just helps other
product marketers, other
growth marketers out
there to get better,
so thank you.
That's the goal.
That's the goal.
If it's, um, you know, truly
gives joy, and I think,
I don't want to speak for
Hattie and Michelle, but,
um, ha- both of them have
been guests on the show.
Um,
Michelle's
episode's not out yet,
but it will be soon.
Um, having met with both
of them multiple times,
they're just, they're so
generous, and, you know,
just the kind of people
that you wanna work with.
Like, and I, I'm probably,
probably the other folks
that you mentioned that
you gave shout-outs to
are probably similar,
like, like-minded
people, you know?
We tend to find each other in
circles.
Content good
Okay, my last, yeah, my
last question for you is
where can we continue to
access your expertise?
Is LinkedIn best?
Anywhere
LinkedIn is probably--
I mean, I'd love to
connect with anybody.
Always happy to have
LinkedIn chats there.
And then my website,
sowhatwhywhocares.com.
Um, I'm gonna continue
to build my portfolio and
updates in the book and
just share fun stories.
I love that.
Again, thank you
so much, Doug.
Yeah, and hey, PMM
listeners, if you like
this episode, please share
it with a PMM friend.
I would be so grateful if you
would also leave a review.
It helps tremendously
with our reach.
Thank you so much
for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode
leaves you with
inspiration to take on the
next step of your own journey.