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In this episode, Zoe and Krysia reflect on the Autism, Neurodiversity, and Sacred Texts Series, discussing their highlights and key themes.
The transcript of the episode is available here: https://share.transistor.fm/s/b10e0bfc/transcript.txt
The transcript of the episode is available here: https://share.transistor.fm/s/b10e0bfc/transcript.txt
If you have any questions, or just want to say hi, email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on social media @autismtheology.
This podcast is brought to you by The University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology.
The artwork for this podcast uses the Centre for Autism and Theology Logo, created by Holly Russell.
Creators and Guests
Host
Ian Lasch
PhD candidate at the university of Aberdeen researching autism and the Imago Dei
Host
What is Autism and Theology Podcast?
The Autism and Theology Podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways in which both faith and non-faith communities can enable autistic people to flourish.
Our episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every month. We have a variety of guests who are related in some way to the field of autism and theology. Some are academics, others are people with life stories to share, and some are both!
We also release CATChat every third Wednesday of the month. These are shorter and more informal episodes where your hosts will share news and give you as listeners an opportunity to ask questions and share your stories.
CAT intro
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Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast, brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology podcast. I'm Zoe, and it's great you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, sharing relevant resources and promoting ways that help faith and non-faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.
This [00:01:00] podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's Center for Autism and Theology, which we shorten to CAT. You can find the transcript for this episode in the show notes. So for this catch-up episode, we are wrapping up our Neurodiversity, Autism, and Sacred Text series, and we're just, um, Krysia and I are just gonna chat about some of our highlights, some of the different things that we've taken from this series.
I feel really sad that this series is over. It had been in the pipeline for, like, well over a year, but we wanted to make sure that we had a good plan, like, a variety of guests. Um, it could've gone on and on and on, but yeah, I really enjoyed hearing different perspectives.
Before we start the episode, we thought we'd just really briefly give short summaries on all the episodes if you've not listened to them.
If you haven't listened, though, I'd really recommend going back and listening to them all and then coming back to this episode so that you can kind of feel like you're a part of the conversation. Um, but the series [00:02:00] started with a conversation I had with Lizzie, Lizzie Peach, on autism and engaging with the Bible, and she talked about her kind of ways that she'll read the Bible through an autistic lens, and how she'll have certain passages that help her to navigate her experience as an autistic Christian.
Um, and then , Ian spoke to Matty, who's a rabbi and, um, a student at a rabbin- rabbinical college in Paris, and he talked about neurodivergent ways of engaging with the Torah. Um, he focused a lot on some of his classes that he teaches on neurodiversity and engaging with scripture. And yeah, he was fascinating talking about, um, the living texts of scripture and, yeah, stuff we can dig into.
But that was really interesting learning more about autism and the Jewish faith. And then, Krysia, you did an episode with Sophia.
Krysia: I did. So I had a chat with Sophia Ferzana, who'd just come back from [00:03:00] Hajj. So, and we had a chat about her experience at Hajj, how she found it as a first time going with a group of people, what that spiritually meant to her, but also about the importance of diversity in Islamic teachings as well, and how that can be understood through, in, from a very neurodivergent perspective and the impact of that for neurodivergent people.
Zoe: And then you also spoke with Leon about-
Krysia: Yes ... the sensory Bible studies. I did as well, and we had the delight of doing a sensory Bible study, which was fantastic. And we're also gonna, um, be looking forward to hearing your experiences of how you've done sen- not so much sensory Bible studies, but if you've, w- how you've done Bible study in the past and how that's worked for you.
Zoe: And then through the Catch Up episodes, we've been having more general chats. Um, probably more Christianity focused because that's where, um, our experience [00:04:00] as hosts lie. But, um, yeah, we've been having more general conversations. And yeah, this final Catch Up episode is chatting, closing off the series.
Um, Krysia, what were your highlights? What things stuck out to you the most from the episodes?
Krysia: I really enjoyed talking with Sophia, and I think that, for me, was a real highlight. Um, as anyone who knew a bit about the doctoral work I did, I spoke with both Christians and Muslims as part of that work. And it was really good to be almost back in that space again, looking at kind of outside of Christianity and seeing how different people embody and s- experience things.
But for me, also hearing about Sophia's experience of Hajj was really- Kind of, it was something that obviously as Christians we don't do. So it's fantastic to hear about a really neurodivergent experience of what it's like and breaking it down. 'Cause I think when we learn about it in RE at school, we're told, "Well, the, the pe- [00:05:00] this happens at large," and blah, blah, blah.
But actually, we're not told about what it means and the significance and the real intricacies of it. And I feel that I learnt so much from Sophia through that conversation, that actually, that for me, was a real highlight. What about you? What was your highlight?
Zoe: Yeah, I mean, I loved my conversation with Lizzie. She has so much wisdom to share, and I think her thoughts on things are really developed from her own experience of engaging with scripture. And yeah, it was lovely chatting to her. Um, but I think what I probably... As I said, like, it was really interesting to learn more about, um, different traditions, and I think I found Matti's episode particularly interesting for that.
Um, and I was really struck by a lot of what he was talking about with, um, the fact that when we talk about scripture, and specifically the Torah in that, um, case, but I think it's relevant to any, um, like it's relevant to the Christian faith as well. [00:06:00] But he was talking about how engaging with the Torah is participating in a living conversation, and he was speaking about how neurodivergent...
So he kind of challenged Ian. Ian said, Ian asked if there were any particularly neurodivergent ways of engaging with scripture or something like that. And Matti was like, "Well, I actually wanna flip that question on its head and talk about how, like, neurodivergent readers bring to light different things about the text."
So it's not like neurodivergent readers come up with, like, a wacky idea, but it's like just bringing to light something different from the text. And, um, I was thinking about that with a lot of the conversations we had about, like, that listener who wrote in and said that they felt that they were wrong in Bible studies, and so many of our participants being told they were wrong.
And it's that, like, w- we often quite like to have the right answer. Like, "This passage is talking about this. I have a nice polished up commentary." And actually, it's not that [00:07:00] neurodivergent people might bring a, like, interpretation that means that all other interpretations are wrong. Um, it's not, like, a case of I'm right, you're wrong.
It's like bringing something else to light, uncovering more about, um, God and, um, scripture and living as a person of faith. And I just thought, I found that really interesting and thought even though he was talking about the Torah and the tradition around the Torah, it's so relevant to anyone who engages with a scriptural, a piece of scripture.
Um- Yeah ... and yeah, I just really, I, yeah, I learnt a lot from that episode.
Krysia: And that almost reminds me of one of the key discussion points that I had with Sofia when we were talking about Is- Islamic teachings and diversity. She particularly referenced chapter 40, chapter 49 verse 13, um, "We have created you male and female with people and tribes so you may recognize each other."
And she said, "That's talking about diversity." And [00:08:00] that made me kind of really think about how we talk about that in quite Christian contexts, kind of, ooh, it's nice to be kind of, diversity's nice, blah, blah, blah. But not necessarily looking at the diversity of embodiment, which Sofia then talks about, well, it's, it's also about neurodiversity, but it's also about diversity of interpreting and learning from other people as well.
Zoe: It's funny as well, that's another point. Um, I mean, it's slightly off topic from what you were saying, but, um, Mati and Sofia both talked about embodiment. Mm. And I don't know if, I actually can't remember if Lizzie did as well. Um, but also Leon spoke about that with the sensory Bible studies, that's all about embodiment.
And I just think, like, a- again, it's not an explicitly neurodivergent thing to think about embodiment. Like, every person, um, like, scripture as embodied, like, scripture's read aloud, that's an embodied experience. When scripture is sung, that's an [00:09:00] embodied experience. But it's just interesting, like, there's maybe more, like, sensitivity to that with neurodivergent people.
But yeah, I just think that's such an interesting thing that, like, at least three of the conversations we've had have touched on embodiment, and there's a lot I think we can learn about engaging with scripture, um, in terms of embodiment through neurodivergent people.
Krysia: Yeah, and I think also the fact that although scripture is technically written in a book, and the book is technically, like, just cardboard and paper, the actual information in it- Mm ... and how we speak it out brings it to life. So it's only- Yeah ... obviously, originally thinking about storytelling more broadly, people would story tell and pass information down.
It wouldn't necessarily be- Mm ... written. Um- No ... and I know you've covered a bit of this, kind of the history about this in your research, but it almost emphasizes the, how the fact that [00:10:00] sacred texts and scripture
are alive. They're not dead texts.
Zoe: Yeah, and that's where it comes back to what Matti was saying about the living conversation. I like, so, like, as you said, Krysia, Krysia's just been reading my book, um, very kindly proofreading it, so she'll know what I'm talking about with this. Um, but in my research, I talked a lot about how, like, even just, like, like, scripture isn't just words on the page.
Like, you know, when you read scrip- scripture and declare it, something happens there. It's not just, like, communicating information, it is so embodies so much more, you know. Like, the, yeah, the presence of God is in scripture and the readings of scripture, and makes it alive through it all. But yeah, like, scripture is a living thing. We call it, often call the Bible the living word of God. And I think it's, that's really important as well 'cause it's like if we are... And again, like, a few people touched on [00:11:00] this in the conversations. If we're just saying that there is, like, one type of people who we will listen to their opinions- Mm
we're then missing out on so much of that living conversation.
Krysia: Yeah.
And it's almost like in terms of the living conversation, unfortunately just because humans are humans, we've decided what bits of the conversation are more relevant than others, rather than seeing the wonderful diversity of it. And that's not to say that if something, someone says something harmful, we should listen to it.
It's
more that if some- if somebody perhaps challenges us with something new from a different perspective we hadn't thought, doesn't necessarily mean you have to ignore it. Maybe it's something to ponder on and dwell on.
Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. And it can deepen our understandings about things to be like, "Oh, I never thought of that before."
Um, but I was reading something this week that was talking about, like, having the humility to say, um, "I don't understand that," but, [00:12:00] like, why am I not understanding that? It was talking about the context of, like, um, revivals that happened a few years back, um, in, a university in the US. And it was just saying, like, often when your immediate understanding is like, "Oh, I'm not sure about that," instead of judging the person who's interpreting something a certain way, it's being self-reflective and thinking, "Okay, well, what about my experience is making me question that?"
And I think that's all part of it, isn't it? It's being self-reflective rather than just saying, "Hmm, that's not what I think, so you are therefore wrong." Um, and yeah, I think that came across in what everyone was saying. Um, and I think that's what's particularly interesting about this, uh, sensory Bible studies, is they leave room for that because it's very personal.
Krysia: Yeah, and I guess also when I think of my experience of doing Bible studies when I was younger, I always found them quite difficult 'cause I, I think, I know Ian and I have spoken about this on the podcast before, where it [00:13:00] almost feels like an English lesson where they're saying, "Interpret it," but there is a right answer.
Um, but I, almost feels that adding in sensory aspect and the embodiment aspect sort of, kind of throws that bit in the bin and makes it much more relevant, and actually you can own the interpretation and the understanding that you've, you've taken from it
Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. And like, you know, like Mati talked about, like, tradition of, like, the, like, kind of Jewish tradition of sitting with different meanings, and I think that is, like, something in the Century Bible studies that allows for is, like, sitting with, like, okay, like, I'd heard...
Like, I... This is, like, what I think of, and then someone else saying, "Well, this is what I think of." And no one's wrong, it's just different experiences of approaching the text. And yeah, it's really interesting. Um, I think something else, like, we've kind of touched on but I don't think we've really unpacked, but [00:14:00] Krysia and I were chatting before the episode, and we spoke about how everyone talked about...
well, particularly, like, the three first episodes. All three guests talked about how, in their scriptures, the prophets or, um, religious figures or messiahs, um, and the general, like, essence of what is being communicated is that diversity is good.
Um, like, and again, we talk about that a lot on the podcast, that scripture is very inclusive of people. Like, um, people are to be loved and welcomed and cared for. Um, and, like, that's been touched on with the Bible. Um, Mati talked about how, um, like Moses, for example, wasn't a particularly normal person.
Like, he didn't fit a box of normal. Um, like, he pointed out that all of the peop- all the Jewish boys of Moses' age were [00:15:00] killed. He was the only person of his age. That probably made him a bit weird. Um, and then, like, you were saying, I don't know, Krysia, if you wanna explain more what Sophia was saying. Um- Yeah.
Krysia: That basically the chapter 49, verse 13, um, I think I s- I said it before. Yeah. "We have created you male and female in people and tribes so that you may recognize each other." And I guess that to me almost jumped to what we've discussed kind of more generally at CAT and sometimes in the research meetings and I think on the podcast before, where there's, as Zoe said, scripture is really inclusive in that way, but the way we as people in social groups may choose to enact it can be quite different.
And that's certainly something that I found in the research that I did, that there was almost this- Theory to practice gap between the two. And I, I know other people at CAT have found similar in terms of people may say something, but actually in terms of [00:16:00] putting it into practice, other kind of just being a human gets in the way a lot of the time.
Zoe: Yeah. We're currently, Krysia and I are currently writing an article with a few other lovely neurodivergent Christians, um, about our experiences, and that's come up a lot as well, saying like, "Well, I know that God welcomes and God loves, but that's not always my experience with people." And I think all of us kind of had reflections related to that.
Um, and I think it's just such an interesting thing, like looking at like across multiple faiths. At the core of beliefs is that diversity is good, that we should welcome and love and care for others, yet in faith communities, that is so often, like Krysia said, like theory to practice doesn't always quite happen.
And I think just to me, the fact that it's like, a- across so many different, across multiple different faiths shows that it's such a real issue with our society, that [00:17:00] we have these beliefs but will continue to exclude people and make people feel like their ways of understanding things aren't good enough.
Um, and yeah, that was very eye-opening, I guess. And yeah. Yeah.
Krysia: And I guess almost one of the main takeaways I would take from the series we've done is not only have I learnt so much more kind of on a comparative level and a deeper understanding about other faiths and sacred texts, um, but also just the kind of, the fact that this kind of
I think the thing that really surprised me was actually how people have picked up about diversity, and that has almost been a staple part. And I wouldn't have thought when we were starting the series that that would've been a staple part of nearly every single discussion that we had. In different way, either diversity in terms of valuing diversity or diversity in terms of different ways of doing it.
And it [00:18:00] almost keeps coming back to me as a very kind of staple part of the conversations that we've had, and the value of doing things differently, and that differently is good.
Zoe: Yeah. Absolutely agree with that. It was really interesting, and I think it just shows, like, the need for more conversations and different faiths.
Like, obviously autism theology because it's a relatively small emerging field, it is dominated by Christian theology, and it shows the importance of bringing other people into the conversations, and I think that's something, like, as a podcast we need to be doing better and as theologians we need to be kind of, like, thinking through.
And I know, like, Krysia, you've done that in your research, but yeah.
Krysia: Um- Yeah. A- and I guess almost it's a really good, for me, it's really good to think, yes, I've done some comparative stuff, but there's still so much more- Mm ... to learn. And I think, I think this is why I enjoy being part of the podcast, is none of us really, um, profess to know everything.
We kind of, we know [00:19:00] our lived experience, and we know our faith, and we know the scholarship that we're contributing to and the belief system that, that we have, but we're always really reflective or, and curious about other people's lives, and I think that's really important.
Zoe: Yeah,
I think just, like, on the back of that, as a kind of closing point, I think also, like, we've talked about the Sensory Bible Studies, um, and, like, the success of that. I've been part of a few workshops where it's been done, and I think the success of that shows the need for more resources that allow space for neurodivergent engagement with scripture or sacred texts, um, more broadly.
Like, more resources to support churches and faith communities to do that because the Sensory Bible Studies are giving the chur- like, giving churches an opportunity that they don't need to develop it themselves. And I think that just, like, that and these conversations show a real need for more [00:20:00] resources, um, for faith communities to engage with sacred texts in a way that's mindful of neurodivergent people.
Um, but yeah. Thank you everyone. This has been such an interesting series. I've really enjoyed it, and I hope you all have, too. We would love to hear your feedback. We, this is the second or third year that we've done a series, um, and we will plan on doing one again next year. So if you have any thoughts on what series you would like us to do next year, um, please send us an email.
But yeah, thank you so much for listening, as always. If you have any questions, you can email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or message us on social media. Even if it's just to say hi, we'd love to hear from you.
[00:21:00] Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology Podcast. If you have any questions for us or just want to say hi, please email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on Twitter @autismtheology.