045 | Drink Photography: the power of hospitality as a service | Part 2/2 with Francesco Sapienza (NYC, USA)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 045, I continued the conversation with Francesco Sapienza from Episode 044. He disclosed some tips about Drinks Photography and unveiled the behind-the-scenes of working with some of the best bars and restaurants in NYC. It is also in video on Spotify and YouTube.

Time Stamps

0:00 Introduction

0:22 A Food Photographer's Red Flags

6:39 Creating The Photograph

10:34 The Role of Light in Sales

16:24 Ensuring a Follow Up

20:04 The Value of a Professional

27:20 Photographic Tricks

29:33 Difference Between Food & Drink Shots

32:40 Taking Shortcuts

35:48 Best Color For Liquid

40:17 Pragmatic vs Aspirational Imagery

44:50 The Professional as an Educator

55:00 Ending Remarks

57:09 Outro

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Francesco Sapienza

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Francesco Sapienza

Food & Drinks Photographer | Sapienza Photography

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Maffeo.
In episode 45, I continue the

conversation with Francesca
Sabienza from episode 44.

He disclosed some tips about
drinks photography and unveiled

the behind the scenes of working
with some of the best bars and

restaurants in New York City.
It is also video on Spotify and

YouTube.
One One thing that I'm thinking

now when you were talking is
that food photography, it's on

the top five of the cool jobs,
right?

You know, it's like especially
now since Instagram was created

and all the influencers and food
bloggers and you name it, right.

So it's very similar to
bartenders or brand managers for

a whiskey brand or it's one of
those cool jobs that everybody

would like to do.
You make it look simple and easy

so everybody says everybody can
do that, so why not giving it a

shot?
But there's a lot of work in the

what I call the unsexy stuff
that needs to be checked, right?

And what I feel is that very
often I mean I have an agency

backgrounds before working for
multinationals.

And I see very often actually
too often a very big disconnect

between agencies that are
thinking top down working with

the headquarter of the global
brand team of a drinks company

or a food company.
Could be pasta, it could be

whiskey, could be gin.
Totally disconnected from the

bottom up world which is what
you do because you go in and

you're waiting outside of the
closed restaurant on a Monday

morning with garbage outside the
the door.

When the the cleaner is coming
to open the restaurant for you

or you know one of the one of
the stuff that needs to clean

the tables it's it's actually
opening and you see the reality.

You know you don't see the
restaurant when it's fully

beautifully polished full of
people and full of celebrities

having glasses of wine but you
actually see the reality of put

the lights on kind of thing.
So how how'd you work with that?

Like what are, what are the
things that you would advise our

listeners to watch out and to to
understand about the bar world

and the rest of the world, so
the hospitality industry, apart

from all the fancy stuff that
they may know.

Especially for those who haven't
worked with professional

photographers, there are a few
things that you want to do

because you want to make the
most out of the money that you

spend on a professional
photographer.

So if I go there that's supposed
to take portraits of the chefs

and then I have to take maybe 10
or 15 dishes, maybe it could be

an opening of a restaurant.
So they have some selective key

dishes they want to show.
They want to show the chef and

they want to show the interiors.
And I happen to be able to take

all these photos.
So there are quite different

separate photography genres.
And I go there and say, OK,

let's start with the interiors
and realize that the place is

not quick, for example.
And that's like no problem for

me.
I mean, I can, I can stay a bit

longer, that's OK.
But is somebody coming to take

care of this and you guys know
what you want on the table?

Or do I need?
Do I need to flip the chairs

from the from the tables and?
Do it myself.

I'm done though.
I've done that two.

But like I can see there are
empty vases.

Do we want flowers in there?
Were you thinking about or

should we just remove the vases
and and maybe they just got a

brief, Maybe the agency, maybe
they have an agency, let's put

it this way.
And the agency pictures this

amazing scenario where we want
this style photos, we want to

have materials, we want the
portraits.

I want the food, That's fine.
And they picture an ideal

scenario.
But then I go there and it's not

ideal.
And there's only so much they

can do if flowers are not there
and you really wanted the

flowers on the table so much
they can do, or the place is not

right, or the food doesn't
arrive.

Maybe the ingredients were not
available yesterday or today and

they were planning on buying
them before the photo shoot.

Maybe the chef is on holidays
or?

That is a bit extreme maybe, but
maybe the chef is and you don't

have backup plan.
You need a backup plan.

I have my backup camera.
If my camera fails, I have

another camera.
In order for you to make use of

the time with me, then you need
to have a backup plan for

things, contingency plan for
things that could go wrong.

So say that the chef it's not
showing up today for any reason.

Are you still able to deliver?
That's of course that's.

An issue?
And how did your client, let's

say, respond to that?
Like do they?

Well, I try and do this work
before.

Before there I could just say I
don't care, I'm gonna show up,

I'll get paid because I was
there.

But it's not really rewarding.
As I said, I don't want them to

waste money on when when they
invest, I want them to have

return.
So I don't want them to waste

money.
I don't want to waste my my time

and their time as well.
And let's not forget that you

need to have people there
helping me with with setting

this in and bringing the the
dishes to my table where I'm

shooting.
So you need people whom it's

actually brought in and paid to
just do that on that day or

those two hours, whatever there
is.

So there's some big investment
in terms also, you know, time

and money on their end.
So I try and and and work on

this before and say, hey guys,
did you read the brief from the

agency?
They want this and this and

that.
Please make sure you have all

those things or you talk to the
agency and you figure out the

contingency plan.
So I mean, yes happened that I

saw the brief and it's like
okay, shoot this pasta white

plate and then on a white
tablecloth and it's like we

don't have white plates.
That's a big disconnect and I'm

not pointing fingers well.
No, this is not about.

Making a mistake.
But there's a disconnect

sometimes, and sometimes you
could avoid it.

Other times you could have, you
know if you were supposed to be

important.
But also the chef is not.

It's sick that that's the way
it.

Is from my angle like I'm always
stressing the, let's say the

focus on the target occasion.
For example like so you have AI,

don't know a gin brand and you
are known for specific gin and

so on.
Here with a specific serve and

so on could be a cucumber
garnish or a Rosemary or thyme

or whatever.
Then they may either not have

that garnish or they actually,
in the brief, actually they

don't ask you to shoot the gin
and Sonic, but they ask you to

shoot another drink.
And then whenever all the

communication is about gin and
tonic, oh, we did a photo shoot,

but actually there's no gin and
tonic photos, right?

Yeah.
So when you work with with

drinks brands or food brands,
like how strict are they?

Do they have a clear image or do
they show just like a wide

selection of things and that
they might forget the actually

important ones?
Hopefully they have a clear idea

of what they want and also
that's part of the work that

maybe I have to do before and
decide to work with them.

And maybe if I realize it as we
were saying before, if I realize

that they don't have that
communication laying down, maybe

that's not my idea of client.
And sometimes they don't really

know, so sometimes they just
shoot a lot of photos and then

never use them.
And so they have invested time

and money to professional
photography and they could use

that money in a different way at
the time as well.

So that happens.
But as I said before, I think

that should be also one of the
filters I need to use to realize

if I want to work.
Yeah.

And there are other situations
where you just can't avoid if

there is a disconnect in the
message between the whoever is

doing the marketing and
communication and whoever is

actually putting together the
dishes and the drinks because

the bartender might not know
what he or she needs to prepare.

I mean, they no.
Of course, of course.

They could have an array of
things that they can do when

they could be.
It could be stuff that you sell

a lot and that you're proud
you're doing, but maybe they're

not in line with what is asked
by whoever is doing.

It so you act like if I get it
right, like you are acting as a

hinge or within the ecosystem
because there's a brand, there's

an agency, there's an owner,
there's many different moving

parts within that and you are
kind of like making everybody

communicate using let's say the
excuse of photography.

In a way, yes, it is that way.
So in this cases I would say in

my experience having in house
Department of Communication

helps because normally those
people are very close to the

hands on experience and many of
those people very often are at

the shoot.
So in that case, there's not so

much of A disconnect.
But then when you talk to maybe

our agencies, you know, external
entities that help with

communication, then you can see
more disconnect.

There I can imagine for.
Sure.

But disconnect can be on so many
levels.

And also it's up to how
resourceful I can be in terms of

doing things that would not have
been possible.

Say that, OK, we're missing
these ingredients.

And maybe I if I know that maybe
I can shoot in such a way that

maybe I can give photo to a
photo retoucher and they can add

the ingredient.
But then I need to know that

because then I can shoot the
photo in a certain way, because

I know something's gonna go
there.

OK.
So keeping that in mind, yes,

you can fix to some extent the
disconnect as some other times

like an example of the chef
being sick much.

You made me discover the
importance of light in

photography.
What's the role that light can

play in in actually helping
sales in a bar or restaurant?

Or what you're what you're
shooting.

OK, I think we need to to split
this.

Say that, Yeah, say that you
have an idea in mind.

You have a picture in mind
because you're going to use that

for communication, for a
specific thing.

So that picture needs to be shot
in a certain way.

And no matter what the style of
the photo, no matter what the

environment looks like, no
matter what kind of photo you're

doing, it needs to be
aesthetically pleasing.

And if if your lighting is not
good, you will not be

aesthetically pleased.
I think with video, it's a lot

easier in a way, because video
is so much more than just what

you see.
It's the way you cut it, the way

you edit it, the music that you
put there.

So even if each frame is not
aesthetically very pleased, you

can get a fantastic, very
captivating video.

With photos, no.
You have something that is

sitting there not moving.
So light is by far the most

important part of photography,
and I would say up to 9095% of

the photo.
But.

So if you missed that, yeah, no
matter how good you are with

retouching, no matter how good
where you are with composition,

the way I tend to describe it is
like, yeah, if you switch off

the light and your frame is
black, it doesn't matter what

composition you have.
So nothing counts.

Basically, if lighting is not,
it's not proper, it's not good.

If composition and and then it's
good and then if you're editing

is good, then of course that's
going to reinforce the beauty of

lighting because you're going to
make something that's even more

aesthetically pleasing.
But light is like the

ingredients in addition.
But I mean, you're working in an

environment that is, let's say,
not known for good lighting.

Right.
Yeah, that's correct.

That's correct.
Bars and restaurants, I mean,

especially bars, I would say
quite dark or there is also like

this trend of minimalistic
lights and so on.

So how do you cope with the
environment?

Because I mean, you can fix the
light.

I'm just assuming now you can
fix the light for the photo

shoot, but then it doesn't give
the real picture because then

I'm going to the restaurant and
it's much darker and I'm eating

that dish in a very dark
environment while on the photo

that you have fixed.
It's very nicely illuminated

from a photographic perspective,
right?

You're not going to create a
nice photo of I would say

probably 80 or 90% of the
lighting that you have in

restaurant in New York City or
any city for that matter.

Because normally you don't have
windows, unless you have windows

and it's during daytime which
has beautiful light.

And normally you have a
spotlight.

Yes, that goes straight down and
that light is not pleasing for

the food, but our mind will
still see a beautiful dish or a

less beautiful dish.
So the beauty of the dish I

think is sculptured by our eyes
anyway, even if the lighting is

not great.
In the photo on the other hand,

it's not that way.
It's almost like our brain

compensate and and kind of
filters out the bad lighting and

still can see enough of the
dish.

There's a lot of compensation
that goes on in in the brain.

But if you're taking a photo,
once you look at the photo which

is exactly the same as what
you've seen at the restaurant,

you go like that's a crappy
photo, not nice.

But when you're at the
restaurant you don't even think

about that.
So when you want to shoot that,

you need to create your own
light and that needs to resonate

to a large extent with the
ambience or what with the feel

that you want for the photo,
because the way you want to

communicate about your brand and
and the aesthetics that you have

in your.
Brand has it happened to you

that you were actually advising
on, I don't know, changing the

lighting in the actual real
restaurant apart from the photo

shoot, but you know like you
were commenting and and helping

bars or restaurant like change
the their lighting setup?

No, I don't.
I want to say so, but definitely

I would help them because I know
that many restaurants take

photos of their own food and
sometimes they use the photos

because they cannot hire a
photographer every week or every

month.
So I try and direct them so that

they can take better photos and
and then I just direct them.

Just if you have natural lights,
use that during the day.

Go close to a window, no sun
shining through, and you'll be

basically fine.
But I would say that the

atmosphere in the restaurant
with the spotlights that are

awful for food photography is
still a very pleasing atmosphere

for us to be in and we will not
focus on the fact we won't even

realize that the light is bad.
As I said before, OK, once you

take the photo you can tell.
Well most people can tell that

that photo is not as pleasing as
an as another one that is shot

with the light.
But once you're in there.

About the experience, it's a
little bit like what you were

saying about the video, like
there's music, there's smell,

there's your company, and
that's.

Not so relevant in the photo.
That's all you have is a still

photo and that becomes very
important.

And so I would say I've never
advised them, but I've said if

you're taking your own photos,
go near a window and you're

gonna have a decent light and
your photos will be decent.

Yeah.
And this is like leads to

another question that I'm having
is that it's a little bit like

in the drinks industry like we
do activations not in the bar

restaurant where wherever it's
legal of course like you know,

like there's a a promo team or
you know you're buying a round

of drinks to the to the guests
or or or a single one.

You know you're sitting at the
bar and you're offering you know

a free drink to your guests when
when it's where it's legal.

But then like you know all these
activation if you haven't done

certain steps, the bartender is
the bartender doesn't recommend

by himself or herself.
You know saves are stopping you

know because then I'm gone Ciao,
you know.

So I guess it's similar to you
because I mean you you do a

photo shoot.
I don't know once a month, once

every quarter, you know
depending on your clients.

But then like this is, this
makes a very important point

that you want to kind of like
train the trainer, you know,

like and and say OK actually let
you know when I'm gone.

Imagine that you go to another
city and you cannot be there for

another three months.
You know, you need to help them,

you know, feed that Instagram
feed or or so on.

So how how'd you do that?
I mean you were commenting

already like but how how
important is that And is it like

a little bit like counter
intuitive because it's kind of

like killing your own job in a
way now that you are making less

yourself?
For sure, for sure.

I think at the end of the day
they buy so much more than just

images or videos for from me.
They they buy all my experience,

they buy all how, how smooth it
is to deal with me from the

moment you contact me until the
moment.

So I deliver the images and you
get the invoice that you can pay

in, you know, four different
ways.

So I make by being a
professional photographer, I

make their life extremely easy
and I'm not just delivering

photos.
So when they actually need an

urgent need for photos and I
give them some advice, I think

that's that's stuff that they
wouldn't call me anyway.

Shoot because maybe it's today's
fish that they found at the

market that is not going to be
able to.

They're available tomorrow and
they wanna post their neighbors

today.
So those kind of photos I will

never get to shoot anyways.
And even if you're a huge

restaurant with huge budgets,
that would have happened because

you need quick.
And so I would say I don't feel

like I'm taking work from me.
And how do you work with them?

Do they have kind of like AI?
Don't know?

Like a designated the best
photographer, the best wannabe

photographer in their stuff.
I enjoy teaching and helping

people learn about photography,
so if there's somebody who's a

kind of a photography nerd,
though, it's a very interesting

photography.
I'll spend time talking to that

person.
Normally they start by, but they

may have a designated person who
has some aptitude for

photography, and they buy that
person on the camera, a

professional camera, a real
camera, whatever that means, and

then they think they're done,
OK, they have somebody clicking,

they have the camera, and that's
all that person needs.

And then they go like, these are
not as good as the photos that

our photographer took.
Unless they are.

I mean unless that person is a
photographer, in which case you

solve your problem yourself.
But it makes me think like

because there's many
similarities with, with the

drinks world because I always
say like in the same, one of the

segmentations that I'm using
there is the, the level of, you

know, how skilled the bar, the
bar stuff and the bar, the

actual bar is in a restaurant.
And I mean of course New York is

the, is the Meccau, you know,
proper cocktail bars in the

restaurant.
Now you don't, you hardly have

any.
You know, we had this

conversation a lot.
Like you hardly have a

restaurant that doesn't have a
proper cocktail list in New York

while in Europe.
I mean, now in Italy or, you

know, whatever, in Prague or
whatever we travel, it's very

different.
But even there, there's always

like one of the waiters that is
into drinks and wants to try and

make some basic cocktails.
So what you were saying, like it

makes me think like it's the, in
that case it could, it could be

like another waiter that is
like, yeah, but I actually like

photographer.
So I want to try and I want to

do something and that's a very,
let's say, thin line between,

you know, some owners that may
say, oh, actually I'm going to

use you instead of a real
photographer, a professional

photographer or a professional
bartender.

You know, like they they may
think they don't need yet or at

all a bartender because like.
And maybe they don't.

Maybe they don't.
Maybe they don't.

Yeah.
Yeah.

So there is a time component,
let's say, which component?

But it's very interesting
because I think it has got to do

with the kind of like sexy
aspects of the topic that

attracts people.
You know, like we've seen, I

don't know like Barber shops
opening up like crazy bars,

cocktails, mixology,
photography, food, photography,

you know, Instagram and so on.
So everything that is kind of

like Instagram mobile has
created a new markets in which

there are still professionals
and and less so.

I mean, yeah, totally, exactly
the same.

If time is an issue for you, you
know, and you have a guy or girl

or whatever who can take good
photos, it just takes 10 times

the time it takes me.
No, time is not an issue for

you.
Why would you spend money on me?

You got the person.
But then maybe you need to wait.

Absolutely.
That's your own, that's your

business.
I mean, you know, best do you do

the math and you see, but that's
a good point.

It's like, do you have the time?
Are you sure it's really free

photography?
Yeah, because you're paying that

person.
Maybe that's a good start.

Maybe that person is.
That's them.

Become a full photographer?
Who knows?

Because the parallel is really
on point.

Because it's, I mean it's what
we always discuss about our own

businesses, you know, apart from
brands that we work with.

And so like, you know, you as a
food photographer and me as a

drinks advisor, you know, there
is an element on helping people

that don't have those skills or
also helping people that don't

have the time but actually would
have the skills, but they decide

to put their time elsewhere.
So they call us to fix.

Yeah, the problem, you know, So
there, like, sometimes there is

a fusion between like, OK, but
who needs my services?

It's people that don't know how
to do that thing but also people

don't have the time to do that
thing and that answers your

question and on you know like
who can take your photos and you

know if that photo it's
something that they need quick

and dirty for 10 minutes because
of the lunch special.

So they're not going to have
unless they hire you full time

and you know you're sitting
there on a on a table just like

in case there is a shoot you
know like a food to to be short

but you know like that's you
know some things are more like

on emergencies and you know
quick and dirty is enough and

some other things up for a
website or for proper social

media programming and so on and.
Nowadays I mean with video and

all you can do with editing.
You know, you might have some

person that is really good with
editing and that, you know,

become very expensive when you
take your video with your iPhone

and then you send the video to
the other and they can make

something really, really cool.
That is really the perfect

example of things that you can
do yourself and make it pretty

successful.
What do you say?

It resonates with me a lot
because I get this a lot.

And not to be doing a plug for
myself, but yes, in a way.

And they go like, oh wow,
they're so expensive.

You know the other photographer
that I talked to?

They're professional
photographer and they charge

less and what I normally ask is
OK.

Have you checked the
deliverables are exactly the

same, like usage rights and all
those things?

Have you worked with this
person?

You know how if it's easy to
work with them and how fast are

they?
If I can deliver what you need

in half a time compared to
another photographer and I might

cost 20% more, 30% more, I'm not
sure that you're saving money by

going with the other
photographer.

Won't be an excellent
photographer.

But if they're slower than me,
you need to account for that

time.
You need to have the person we

were talking about you know who
is helping with the dishes.

The chef needs to be there and
and all that will be reflected

on your bill one way or another.
So that's why I asked the

question and it's like, yes, the
number might be lower but it

doesn't mean that that the end
of the day you're saving money.

Absolutely.
Also imagine if it takes longer

for you and the only time you
can shoot is during opening

hours during when the restaurant
is operational.

So there's clients.
So you're setting aside part of

the restaurant 1 table or two
tables, whatever that is, and

those tables cannot take
traffic, so you cannot sell

those tables.
So the longer it takes for a

photo shoot to be done, the more
money you're losing because you

cannot put anybody on those
tables absolutely.

So that needs also to be
accounted for.

Or you need to pay stuff if it's
a closed day.

If it's closed, you need to.
You need to pay the stuff.

That wouldn't be there and.
They open, they're not gonna be

paid 2 hours.
Exactly, exactly.

Like they're gonna be paid a
full day.

Or half day, whatever that is.
And if it's all you're not gonna

be able to use the table, so
you're gonna, you're not gonna

have return from those expensive
tables in New York City.

So all these aspects I tell
people about, I mean you can go

with wherever you want, but just
know that that's in the

equation.
You're fooling yourself if you

think that you're or you're
saving money just because the

price tag on photography is is
lower.

Yeah.
How would you say like,

especially in the spirits world,
the drinks menu and the back bar

are the most important things to
get rotation and to get sales

and and so forth.
But if I look at it through the

lens of a photographer, you know
back bars are quite strange

places, not like they're usually
dark.

You know, all those bottles are
stuff against each other, dusty,

with many brands that are not
rotating and not always, you

know, wiped off and so on.
What would you advise to bar

owners who are listening to use
photographic tricks, let's call

them, to make it more appealing,
and to to to see it more and to

make one to order it more.
I would say yes, you need to

bring lights to to those
products and if you want use

them all, should all believe
that of course they should be

placed in places where you can
see them.

You might have, you know, 200
bottles there, but if they're

really high up or behind other
bottles and you don't see them,

it doesn't really matter.
But yeah, they need to be

visible.
I would say that that part I

haven't seen that being such a
big problem.

Normally bars are are leaked in
a way that you actually see.

The.
Bottles because they normally

have these LED lights below on
top of the bottle, so you get

the shine and sometimes from
behind so you get the shine

through.
Maybe it's a transparent or semi

transparent?
Maybe you're spoiled because

you're New York, because I can
guarantee you that elsewhere,

like the bottles are pretty sad
and lonely and dark.

But then on the other it's
pretty tough to actually shoot,

say a bartender mixing a drink,
a drink and also throwing the

bottle in the back bar.
Very, very hard.

Possible.
So you need to do tricks and

then you have to bring the
bottle in front to show it.

So it becomes more like very
obvious that you're kind of

promoting this, this brand if
you have a bottle where you can

see the.
Label and do you see, do you see

that there's a big difference
between shooting food and

building drinks?
Not huge difference, but there

is a difference normally,
especially if the drink has some

sort of transparency.
So not red wine, not thick,

very, very, very strong red
wine.

You want to shoot so that the
light comes from behind the

drain, and that's going to
basically make it pop.

If you're shooting with the
light coming from the front,

which you should never do in
food and also in drinks, you're

going to get the reflection from
the glass and you're not going

to see very well what's inside.
So it's it's pretty

counterintuitive, but most
probably 90% you should have

the, the, the light coming from
behind, maybe slightly up from

from above, but behind.
And then you're going to get all

those highlights.
Those are reflections on the

surface of the tree and they
make it really appealing.

And that goes for for many
foods, especially if they're

flat foods, you can have the
same type of light.

But if you have a tall food, you
can't just shoot it.

You can just light it from the
back because you're not going to

see the front in the dream.
If it's a transparent glass and

it's a pretty transparent
liquid, then you can just shoot

it, light it from the back and
it's going to look gorgeous.

I have a theory and I've
discussed this with many people

in the industry, like this was
actually the success behind the

Spritz, apart from the taste and
the how easy it is to make it

like it pretty much grew
together with Instagram and the

trend of shooting food and
drinks, so to say.

And I have the feeling that that
that's what made it.

I mean, an orange ish reddish
kind of like drinks like it, you

know when pops a lot.
Yes.

So when you were talking like I
was seeing spritz all over the

place with the sunset exactly.
And the spritz at the sunset and

then.
You've got it very hard to to

take a bad photo of a dream if
you're just against.

The sun is pretty low, so sunset
already kind of nice feeling,

you know, a Petit, evil kind of
feeling that's already nice.

So you put the the sun is coming
from this direction, you put the

drink here and you shoot it from
here.

It's hard to very hard to miss
that.

Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, maybe you don't want the

sun exactly in the drink, but
just the light coming from from

the back.
It's going to look that

beautifully and and it's going
to look really, really great.

And then it's one of those cases
where yes, you might go in and

look pixel by pixel and realize
that, oh, but this is not so

professional.
It's not so sharp.

Here's the feeling is nice.
Now, of course that's.

And that's why any phone is able
to to capture the feeling

because the lighting is so good,
the professional camera in that

case, because the lighting is so
good and the feeling is so great

and and you're done.
And earlier you mentioned the

fact that maybe like a skilled
or the most skilled waiter or

staff from the restaurant that
is into photography and then

basically the the owner is
buying them a camera and you

know, thinking that the deal is
done because it's like I buy you

the best thing.
And then and you mentioned and I

know you, you know, like you're
a big fan of food photography

also with with a phone.
Yeah, absolutely.

With an iPhone.
Absolutely.

I think you can go very, very
far.

And so what's what's your take
on that?

Well, my take, my general take
is that people included look for

shortcuts, you know and and it's
not always possible.

So if I tell you, hey, you spend
3 grand on a camera and your

problems with photographer
photography are fixed for the

rest of your professional life,
hey, I think I'm going to be in

business hopefully 1020 years. 3
grand is not much in 20 years.

Unfortunately that's not your
solution.

It doesn't buy you a solution.
It's a very easy way to feel

that you've done something that
you invest, but you invested the

money in the wrong, so that's a
big problem.

Nobody tells them that that's
not what they need.

It's not their job to know
because I also thought at the

camera, I was taking the photos
when I started, so I thought the

camera, good camera and then I'm
going to become a photographer

now.
So if you don't want to spend

the money on the camera, you can
start and you can go so far with

just the smartphone.
So I tell them because I'm

sometimes restaurants say we
cannot hire you again, you know

for another six months and we
need photo.

Can you tell us what camera to
buy?

Like I'll tell you what camera
to buy.

Frankly, you already have a
camera in your hands, and if you

do a few things right, that
camera is gonna deliver what you

need.
And I'm I'm smiling because

actually earlier my wife told me
that our daughter wanted wanted

a photo.
Yesterday we went to a wedding

and and my wife told her like OK
wait here I'm gonna take my

camera and she said what's the
camera because she has never

seen one because you know and
she said OK sorry I meant my

phone and just like OK I got it
and it made made us laughed this

morning because I said like
actually she never saw a camera

you know she doesn't know what a
camera is because for her phones

are making pictures so maybe for
the new generation you know it's

gonna be easier and.
Yeah, like when kids saw the old

telephone with.
The Well, actually, like we were

walking around Naples earlier
and my daughter said, like,

what's this?
And it was a phone booth and I

was trying to explain it to her.
I was like, you know, back in

the days you had no phones with
you and you had to stop and do

it.
This way, I mean, it's not 50

years ago, no.
So definitely you need to know

what your problem is first and
then spend money if you want on

that.
But then I on the right thing.

And what would you say like from
a photographic perspective now,

just like just for fun, what is
the best color for for liquid to

be shot?
What's the easiest and what you

would say would be the most
appealing?

I mean, we spoke about the
orange or reddish.

Yeah, stuff that that's color.
So I would keep up to do extreme

one extreme there is very dark
red wine.

Basically, you're not gonna get
shine.

So that espresso martini?
Tough to shoot.

OK, sorry, let me rephrase.
Let's talk about just the liquid

itself.
OK, so very dark red wine that

doesn't have any decorations on
the.

Top OK, OK, there's no white.
There's no, there's no.

Foam.
There's no foam.

There's no ingredients on the
top.

There's no there's nothing and
then a glass of water or you

know vodka and not even ice, you
know just this to extreme

examples.
So basically they won't give you

much, the water or the vodka in
rice will give you more than the

glass of of red wine.
OK, Just really really tough to

to make sexy.
Anything in between is going to

work even if there is no
decoration on top.

So I would say a rose or a white
wine or a red wine that is

pretty bright in color.
Anything in between you can have

another dimensional top that is
the decoration top.

So espresso martini, yes, very
tough to shoot and show the

actual espresso there.
And the color is dark, there's

not a scene there, but the
decoration on top, the foam and

the beans, those are gorgeous.
So if you light them properly,

So with the light coming from
the back and a little bit above

golden.
So those I wouldn't shoot from

table level, I will shoot them
from higher up.

When you talk about 45° angle
more or less and the light

behind the subject, perfect.
So I think there are two

different first, how much
decoration there is on top and

then the type of liquid.
And if the decoration is very

prominent, of course you want to
focus on that, even if the you

could see something in the
liquid, but that's less

important.
And then if you go at a 45°

angle you could probably get
both, depending on the glass.

If you have a tall glass and you
go at 45°, you can see both the

decoration on top and also
what's in what's underneath.

If you have a very like a
couple, I don't know what you

call a glass that is very, very
shore.

Yeah, yeah.
Like, I don't know what you like

even for espresso Martini.
Yeah, Yeah.

Yeah.
There's not much volume there.

So you should focus on what you
see on top rather than trying to

capture what's underneath
because it's way too shallow.

And especially because the stem
of the glass.

Stem is long.
Also is knocking there that you

want to show what you're saying
about the spritz makes a little

sense.
Orange with a dark background or

darker background.
The pulse orange against the

sky.
Blue sky pops perfectly.

It's like it's then you just
bump the saturation a little bit

or put a filter, some Instagram
filter, and you get a gorgeous

photo.
I'm truly saying that.

Gorgeous because it captures you
how it's taken and how the

pixels are.
If they're perfect or not

perfect, it's irrelevant.
It captures you that that that's

what you want.
You want evoke an emotion in

whoever is looking at the photo.
How come can you evoke emotions

out of images taken with old
cameras?

My brother, you know him.
He takes photos for fun and for

business.
It's.

Called Web plate.
So the camera is from 1850.

Very imperfect, very imperfect.
It's gorgeous.

It's starting to do with being
perfect, with with having

everything super sharp.
No, it's a feeling that you get

when you look at it.
What the successful picture is,

is something that evokes the
emotions that the brand wants

you to have, wants you to
experience how you reach that.

If you have somebody who's good
at doing that, either with video

and then with a very good editor
or with an iPhone and just being

good at capturing that, that's
and bringing that emotion

across.
And it makes, makes me think

like something that I discussed
like and I wrote a couple of

articles about is that there is
a tendency for drinks brands to

to work a lot with very
aspirational imagery.

You know, so I don't know, like
a Riva boat on the Lake Como or

rooftop on in Manhattan at
sunset or whatever.

Like, you know, I'm just like
making stuff up now.

But.
And I always have a bit of a

kind of like schizophrenic
approach to this because it's

like, OK, I get it.
I understand, like if you're

making it appealing to me, But
it's so disconnected from my

real way of living that actually
I always say, why don't brands

shoot stuff, you know, and
communication in a much more

relatable kind of environment
that you know?

Yeah.
I don't know, like a cool

kitchen or a or a backyard or a
garden or, you know, something

that I don't want to say
everybody has.

But there is a high chance that
I am going to come to your place

and have a barbecue and drink
and make it cool and appealing,

rather than dreaming about a
trip on a riverboat that I would

probably never do on a Lake Como
and I will never go there.

What's your take?
Is there a way that they could

make it in a much more kind of,
like pragmatic way?

Like that is seem more similar
to the way you and I are or not.

There's a trend that wants to
highlight genuine experiences

and experiences that are more
relatable to to people.

I think maybe maybe in the
restaurant business is a bit

different compare to drink
brand.

I am drinks, I mean ultimately
we're still selling a dream

yourself, but maybe in the
restaurant since you can have

people really sitting there and
having that meal.

I think maybe that's what's
driving the push towards this

more genuine feeling and things
that may not be perfect.

Because if you think about it, I
mean there is also a level of, I

mean I remember like, you know,
working with champagne brands or

you know, very, you know, top
whiskey brands and so on, that

some years ago there was a trend
in making them super

aspirational nowadays, you know,
like they want to make champagne

and everyday thing, you know,
like they want to go away from

being celebrational.
It's just like wedding and bird

birthdays and graduations.
They want to say, OK, it's a

random Tuesday night, you know,
let's watch Netflix, let's pop a

bottle of champagne kind of
thing.

And if you are only working with
aspirational, various

aspirational images, you are
disconnected from that kind of

like more everyday luxury kind
of thing.

I agree.
I I I have to say, actually it

came to mind that I recently did
a shoot for a for a wine brand.

Very high hand, super high hand.
And I was kind of surprised by

their brief, because the brief
was exactly it needs to feel

like anybody could be holding
this glass.

And one of the things they
stress so much in the brief, I

think it says four or five
times, they never wanted the

bottle, never wanted to show the
label.

Not only that, but never wanted
the bottle sharp in image and

not even the glass.
I was like, OK, send me images

because I don't understand.
They send me images.

And I was like, wow, that's so
cool.

So basically you see the bottle,
you see the glass.

But what's sharp, maybe it's the
Empire State Building.

So you can understand that
you're in New York, you're

drinking this because the color
is the color of that, that

drink.
That was so cool because it's.

And I think this is a little bit
in line with what I'm

experiencing when I said about,
you know, the genuine feeling.

And I totally felt more
connected with those type of

images compared to images shot
on a real boat or drink.

And I'm telling you, this is
very high end wine.

I'm not talking about just any
wine.

So that was surprising, very
cool.

And also kind of, I got, I was
buffled.

I didn't really know anything.
I think that's that's also a

little bit in line with what you
and I discussed a lot like

creating demand in a way even
for competitors, which is a

little bit like
counterintuitive.

But then in the end, you know,
I'm giving you a service because

I'm actually educating you on
the category.

And then I'm explaining what's
my role within that category,

which is not being the best
option of whiskey or whatever,

but it's whatever the whiskey
for those kind of people that

are looking for that kind of
taste and that want to spend

that much money, for example.
But then I'm going to teach you

about the whiskey category and
the spectrum of spend that you

can spend and how much, you know
roughly each year of aging is

going to cost you and where you
want to balance yourself.

And then for example, I don't
know, for me could be a 15 years

old whiskey.
That's a sweet spot or 1518, but

then when it starts to go over,
then it's beyond my.

Power I appreciate.
Yeah, I don't.

Appreciate it and cost wise
doesn't really, but it's

something that most brands don't
understand and I may be wrong.

I mean this is let's say my way
of building brands bottom up,

but that will cater people
towards you because they're

going to think like, hang on,
this person hasn't sold me

anything yet.
You know, I'm going to buy

something from this guy because
you know, he has helped me

navigate the mess of this
category which is what you were

saying about professional
photography.

I have no idea what what am I
paying?

I'm paying, you know, cost for
rights and usage rights and.

Time editing like, yeah.
And you know, how long does it

take for a shoot?
I've no idea.

You know, I'm a chef.
You know, I couldn't do this

kind of thing.
But then I'm going to use if I

ever need a professional
photographer, that's and I see

it myself every day.
For example, when I'm writing on

LinkedIn, I'm not pitching for
any sale.

And then people are asking me
for advice or for consulting

gigs and and they come to me
often.

Like, it's like I've been for
you 15 months and now it's the

first time ever that they reach
out with a direct message to me,

you know, So they've been
sucking in all the information.

And some people, they even just
write me.

I just want to say thank you,
you know, I don't need anything.

I don't think I can afford you,
but you know I'm just enjoying

what you write and it's helping
me a lot and I'm sharing it with

my team and so on.
So there's there is this kind of

thing that I think is all
connected what I'm saying what

you're saying what what this
client of yours like 1 brand

that didn't want to show the
bottle or the label.

You know just like talking about
the category and then their role

and our role within the category
which is a new way or a new wave

of of selling you know, which is
much more inbound than at some

point like people come to you
and you're just like preaching

in in your own you know field
all.

Right, and as I said before, I
think a lot of this stuff took

me a long time for me to learn
and I get a nice kick, nice

feeling.
I'll actually make it that

simple for other people so they
don't have to spend our time.

I had the passion behind, so I
was spending the hours to learn

of course, and these people.
Hours on the phone.

Exactly.
But many people, they don't have

the passion for it.
And so I'd like to inform them,

like give them enough
information so that they can

make choices that make sense for
their business and whoever they

end up choosing.
I enjoy doing that.

Apart from the fact that may
someday help them choose me over

somebody else, That's almost
secondary.

As you were saying in the
beginning, I thought that that

was only related to teaching or
talking about photography or

technical stuff, and in case I
would have catered to

photographers.
If I'm teaching or talking about

photography, the restaurant
owner is not going to listen to

me.
He's not actually interested

unless he's interested in
photography.

But then I realized that I want
to help my own client who are

restaurant owners and food
brands and I enjoy teaching all

also those aspects of of
photography that are not

technical.
Yeah, it gives me a lot of

satisfaction.
That's true, that's true.

And also in my case, what I'm
doing with LinkedIn, with the

podcast and so on, it's a way to
continue the education.

Well, first of all, myself,
because I'm, I'm learning even

like talking to you, even though
we talk almost every day apart

from weekends.
But even like my actual clients,

they'll relearn because I'm not
with them 24/7, you know, So

it's it's an extension of my
time with them because, you

know, if I'm not with them,
maybe they'd be in a car

listening to my podcast.
And then when we actually have a

a meeting the next week, then
it's like, oh, let's do I have

an idea, Let's do what you were
saying in episode 7 when you

were talking to that guy.
I really love that and I think

we can do it for my brand.
What do you think as that sounds

like a plan and you know it
saved us maybe 3-4 hours of

meetings because he he just
clicked on it or maybe like he

read the LinkedIn post and it
happens to me all the time when

I'm working with clients.
Absolutely, Absolutely right.

Also, they buy your competence,
your knowledge, but there's a

time limit on that.
So you kind of in a way, since

you're so knowledgeable, you
have to put everything, pack

everything so crazy small in
order to deliver that.

And I mean, if they were doing
what you're doing, they wouldn't

need you.
But they're not doing what

you're doing.
So in order for them to unpack

that and keep it present, you
know, that's really hard.

You forget things you don't use
every day.

You forget.
So having that reminder by just

listening to your podcast or
reading your newsletter actually

reminded them about things that
you've probably told them

already.
And it's not that they were now

listening.
It just is so much and you

easily forget it that this is a
great way of kind of keeping it

fresh for them.
It's interesting because

sometimes like you and I have
this conversation on because we

say we are giving something for
free to non paying clients and

that sometimes it feels unfair
to paying clients now because it

it feels like OK, actually like
I'm giving this information, you

know, like the podcast is not a
private podcast only for my

clients.
It's it's a public podcast that

it is and everywhere in the
world.

But then by the fact that I'm
spending, you know, weeks with

my client, the podcast, it's
like it's an exponential kick on

it because they get the tailored
consulting plus they get this

kind of like daily reminders in
their car while they're

shopping, grocery and so on.
And the non paying clients, they

just get that but they don't get
the Full Monty, the full

experience of me say in person
or in video or tailor to their

P&L and so on.
So it's interesting because it

makes you think and sometimes
like even I forget about it and

then I get reminded and when you
and I have this conversation we

keep reminding each other and we
know we know it because maybe

the other has told us three
months ago.

But in the end, like we always
need someone to remind us and

put us back on their on the
path, no?

The other day I was listening to
a podcast with this this guy

that I hired a few years ago to
help me with branding and

marketing and which I I mean, it
doesn't come natural to me.

I cannot have to find myself and
think and and and study things

and study trends.
So I listened to the podcast

that he had with another person
and then I messaged him and said

wow, wow, great stuff, great
stuff.

And he was like, yeah, but we
did this like three years ago, I

taught you exactly the same
things.

You know, that you paid for it.
And I and I paid for it.

He was like, I know, I know.
But it felt different, you know?

It felt like I never heard those
things.

Like even though I know those
things, I don't know those

things.
They they're not there with me

constantly because that's not
what I do.

But that's what he does.
But there is.

There is actually like one of my
friend now because we know each

other for for for a long time.
And he's literally like under

every post that I do on LinkedIn
that there is a like or a

comment or something on Twitter
and so on.

And then like I posted an
episode of a podcast and I was

explaining the target occasion,
which I spoke about for years.

And he's been following me for
years.

And he wrote me a message and
said, like, now I had an

enlightenment.
And I really understood what you

mean by target occasion, you
know?

And I was like, wow.
And I felt like, how is it

possible?
He's been following me like for

three years now.
But of course, like, you know,

it was never so precisely
explained like in those three

minutes or.
Maybe never.

Maybe it was not the receptive.
Maybe he just gained some

knowledge recently that actually
allowed him to put the pieces

together and so.
So wow, so thank you.

Thank you so much for.
Just me.

We made it.
I wasn't too nervous, but I was

wondering where this would go.
No, I mean, we usually speak

Italian to each other.
So that was a that was a bit.

Of an experience, but.
And let our listeners know how

how to find you and you know if
they want to get in touch or buy

your services or even just talk
to you when.

Yeah, anybody's allowed to to
e-mail.

I respond to all emails, I
respond to all messages.

It just sometimes it takes
longer.

But yes, Francesco Sapienza if
you if you don't don't remember

the website
francescosapienza.com.

You can Google Francesco
Sapienza New York City.

You'll find me or I think even
Sapienza, New York City.

And you'll find me.
And what was I going to say?

And yes, I do respond to to all
emails and you take your time to

to write to me.
You know this is clearly

important to you and I'll, I'll
do my best work on it possible

and all the way.
I can help you one way or

another and even just say hi.
It has happened that I've met

people just got in touch and
maybe they were looking to help

me as a photographer or wanted
to hire me or and then somehow

we got in touch and we met
outside of photography and we

became friends.
So it's always fun to meet

people.
So good excuse.

Nice.
Nice.

To let them know.
So thanks a lot for your time

you're.
Welcome.

Finally, understand what you do.
And maybe now we can we can

just.
Find and actually you help me

understand I understand what I
do.

Yeah, and this is like, this is
actually part of the reason why

we wanted to have this episode,
because we actually wanted to

make public our private.
This is exactly the way the

talks go, just in Italian.
And and. 10 minutes.

Yeah, more.
No more than 15.

But yeah, this is exactly what
we talked.

About and we can actually now
and hopefully our wives will

listen to this episode so they
will find out what we talk about

every day and.
Why we're busy today.

Exactly.
Cool.

So.
Good to see you take.

Care.
That's all for today.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode, 44 and 45.

If you enjoyed it, please rate
it, comment and share it with

friends, and come back next week
for more insights about building

brands from the bottom up.