After IV

How do I prepare for this transition to life after graduation? Kathy Shiau continues to teach us how to navigate endings, new beginnings, and the space in between in the second episode of our new series Finding Your Footing. Catch up on Part 1 if you missed it!

This one's for you, Alumni!

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Creators & Guests

Host
Jon Steele
Jon Steele, a 2011 InterVarsity alumnus from Minnesota State Mankato, lives in Mankato, MN with his wife Kaitlynn and their two daughters. He’s been on staff with InterVarsity since 2012 and has been hosting After IV since its debut in 2020. He is also the producer and primary editor for the podcast. Jon enjoys gaming, reading, and leading worship at his church.
Guest
Kathy Shiau
Kathy is a University of Michigan alumna and now works with InterVarsity as an Interim Ministry Associate.
Editor
Stephen Albi
Stephen, his wife Ashley (a fellow IV'er), and their two daughters live in Central Illinois. Stephen is a pastor, avid rugby fan, and has his own line of homemade hot sauces!

What is After IV?

Hey, InterVarsity alumni! This is After IV, your podcast for navigating life after graduation. This is both an exciting and potentially tricky transition you’re making and you might feel a little unsure about the coming weeks and months. We’re here to provide you with expert advice, practical skills, and plenty of encouragement as you learn how to keep saying "Yes!" to Jesus in your new context. This is After IV, and this podcast is for you, alumni.

After IV
Finding Your Footing: In Transition (Pt 2)
 
Podcast Intro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Jon Steele  0:21  
Hey everyone. I'm Jon Steele, and this is After IV, a podcast for InterVarsity alumni life after college is hard, and even a great experience with your University chapter doesn't shield you from the challenges of transition as we hear stories from real alumni and learning how to make it in their posts InterVarsity reality. My hope is that this podcast will offer some encouragement, a few laughs and even some hope for the future. This is After IV and these are your stories.

Welcome

Hello, alumni and welcome to After IV, the podcast that's just for you. I'm your host Jon Steele, as always so great to be together for another episode. If it's your first time joining us welcome. I'm really glad you made it and a special shout out to you 2023 alumni who are joining us for the very first time. On today's episode we continue our new series finding your footing navigating the post graduation transition. Over the next few episodes, we're talking about a host of skills that you can apply immediately after graduation. Last time we started talking about transition itself with Kathy shell Cathy's explaining William Bridges framework for transition and providing us with some extremely helpful insights for navigating new seasons of life. We talked about the first two phases, endings and the neutral zone. Today we're wrapping up the neutral zone and moving into new beginnings, what it's like to finally start feeling comfortable in your new context. If this is your first time joining us welcome once again. But I recommend pausing here and going back one episode so that you don't miss out on getting to know Kathy and hearing a helpful introduction to the framework. You can find a link to that episode in the show notes. Then come right back here and pick up where you left off. All right, now that we're all caught up. Let's jump into the second part of my chat with Kathy for those who listened a week or more ago. We'll go back a couple minutes just so you can have a bit more of a lead in to the rest of Kathy's explanation of the neutral zone. Jog the memory just a little bit. All right. This one's for you, Alumni.

Musical Interlude

Interview

Kathy Shiau  2:23  
It's a necessary phase for us to go through. Because if we don't stay in this phase, and if we don't stay in it long enough. Not only do we just like compromise the whole process of transition for ourselves, but we actually also just miss out on creative ways forward. And so bridges talks about how this is the phase where a lot of creativity can start to emerge. Interesting. And this can come in in a number of ways. It might be like a new way of viewing ourselves. But it might even be something very tangible like we discover new activities or hobbies or skills that in our previously very well scripted lives throughout college we just didn't pay attention to or we didn't have time to whatever the reason might be. And it's usually not until we're in this state of disequilibrium that we maybe have the push to try some new things. So my tip would be in this space, I guess the word of advice first would just be Don't try to escape that feeling of uncomfortableness like it. It should feel uncomfortable, but it's part of the process. So know that. And then I feel my tip would be is really to make sure you are processing what you're going through with others and to give feedback in community from people who know you, you know, should share what's hard, tell them the things that you're thinking about exploring and really get their feedback. And yeah, seek out that community so that when you are starting to feel anxious and you kind of just want to give up and will your way to the next thing that you've got other people kind of cheering you on and helping to reflect back to you what they see.

Jon Steele  4:20  
Yeah, this is really interesting. There's two there's two different things that comes to mind as you're as you're talking. The first is imagery that not everyone will be able to identify with, but I'll use it anyways. I mean, it makes it makes me think of when our first daughter, she's almost five now but when she was learning to walk, and how often, you know she'd can she pull herself up on the couch and she'd be standing there and she'd sort of take one hand off and it's almost like she's gonna try she's gonna try to go out there on her own wobbly and, but then she's like, Nope, that hand right back on the couch, like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. And that the times that she would kind of work up her bravery, and she would try and she would get one or two very unstable steps and then she would plop down and it's like, oh, and then sometimes it might take a while before you would see her try again. But in the trying and in the failing and in that sort of like, nobody has got me here. I'm not hanging onto the couch. Mom's standing in front of me and I'm trying to like get to her that that's the place where she actually learns how to walk. Or she learns those stabilizing muscles or she learns her balance and the right distance to put one foot in front of the other how close her feet should be to one another. And all of these just like tiny skills that turn into the ability to walk and not really mentioned the stuff that's actually like the stuff that's being rewired in her brain as she's actually doing this stuff. And like it's so much the same for us and transition like we have those moments of I just don't want to let go. Don't know what's going to happen out there. But once you do, yeah you're gonna plop down on your butt a few times it's going to happen, but that's part of the process. You're not failing, you're trying and that that's the win is that you're trying and you get back up and you keep going and your brain rewires and your muscles find their balance and you get stronger and eventually you make your way to mom or dad or whoever it is that's ready to catch you into that next phase which we haven't talked about yet. But you but you're making your way there. And gosh, that's just as you're talking about this neutral phase. I'm like this feels so much like like our daughter Aurora learning to walk. We're only a few. We're only a few months away from our next from our next kid being in that phase two. So it'd be interesting to see. See how she does that. Now, the other thing that came to my mind you were talking about community that like invite community into this process with you and one of the things that's tough is like, I think that we we forget sometimes when we're making this transition into a new space, and we're like, I haven't found my community yet. Yeah, I think it's really easy for us to forget about all the community that we've had up to this point. All of these people that because of the era of technology that we live in today the community that we are still connected with even though we might not be able to sit down across the table from them with a coffee and talk through text to your chapter members that you that you were just doing all of this with text your mentor or a family member whoever it is that that you love and loves you and that you trust, invite them into the process with you. That's your community right now that helps you bridge the gap until you get to your new local community. You do have them it's just you have to engage them a little bit differently than you're used to. Well, Kathy Can you can you take us into then we've we've been walking through this neutral zone, this sort of limbo state, bring us into our next our next part here.

Kathy Shiau  7:57  
So the last phase is called the new beginning. And you basically reached this place when you start to feel like you've reached a new equilibrium. Bridges writes in one of his books that New Beginnings are marked by a release of new energy in a new direction with the expression of a new identity, essentially, that's at the core of that, and I don't know that there's a telltale sign when you've arrived. I've heard people describe that you often actually don't even know that you've entered in until you look back and you realize oh I think I have reached this space. And so the feeling attached to this space is essentially this subtleness like this sense of like, Oh, I think maybe I actually feel at home now in my new situation. New Beginnings can also be interesting. You know, before we kind of get there, we simultaneously want them. So I'm thinking of your story of your daughter, right? Like she probably wants to walk on our own, but we can be afraid of it because of what it requires to get there. But also then, like being committed to this new way of being. And I would say that I don't know that I actually have a new tip really. I think the community piece that we talked about in the transition or in the neutral zone is said definitely helpful to continue. And then I think the tip that I gave him the beginning and the letting go of continuing that reflection of what is it that you are doing and what are the emotions that are attached to it. And I think it's in the reflection and being able to look back over time about like, how did I feel when I first started this journey? How did I feel on transition? Oh, how am I feeling now that I think that we often actually get that clarity of way. I'm in a different place today than I was three, six months ago.

Jon Steele  10:18  
Yeah. And it feels like maybe maybe something to keep in your back pocket is when you get to that point that you can actually look back and recognize like, Oh, I think I'm starting to get this that maybe that's a great place to engage celebration.

Kathy Shiau  10:33  
It's great. Yeah.

Jon Steele  10:34  
What does it look like to honor the fact like to be excited for yourself, but to also like thank the Lord that like, Hey, we're starting to figure this out. In you know, is it possible to invite some of your old community and some of your new community into that space and be like, not that we need to be like, totally self congratulating, you know, put our own lives on a pedestal but I do think in addition to not grieving Well, I think many of us also don't celebrate well. It's so true. Yeah. What does it look like for us just to take a moment to be like, man, thank you, Lord, that that I'm here and the process that has been painful, but I can be really excited about the fact that here we are, and I'm learning new things and there's still a lot to go you still have a million transitions and changes that are going to happen ahead of you, but you've gotten a wrap in of how you can like make it through that that process and you can start writing down like okay, these are the places where God was faithful in this transition. And I'm going to trust that he'll be faithful in the next one, too. I grew up in I grew up in the era when Oswald Chambers my utmost for his highest was like, you know, that was the that was the devotional that everybody was doing. I still don't think I understood a single one of us. It just didn't make sense to me for most of the time, but there was one that I remember talking about like the daily drudgery. Yeah, like every day is the same until it all of a sudden isn't until you look back and you take stock. You're like, I'm at a different place now. And yeah, and like, like you said, some of those practices that you've been doing along the way, like those are the things that are gonna that are gonna prep you for that kind of aha moment of of, oh, wait. I'm starting to get a rhythm here. And this is really exciting. Yeah, no, that's great. Kathy, I didn't ask you to prepare this response, but we'll see what happens here. Thinking back thinking back to your story of like the, this big transition that's happening, all of these changes as you're moving to a new place. Can you look back on a time that is there something that stands out to you of a time that it sort of like came to you of like oh, things are starting to kind of come together for me here or what like what that looked like as you started to get the sense of I'm getting my rhythm in this new phase of life.

Kathy Shiau  12:58  
Yeah, I would probably say it took it took a while really. Because in the midst of moving we dated essentially another year, I got engaged like halfway through that year, and then we got married. So it was like another transition a year later. And it just so happened that right after we got married that year of my master's program was just very intense. And so the first year by marriage, I was kind of dealing with the intensity of my Courseload as well. And then I was going through big disarmament questions of do I actually want to continue with my master's program and things like that, and I would say that we you know, my husband actually had been part of a church before I had moved there. We attended the same church for our first year together, while we were just still dating and engaged, but then after we got married, we had actually made the decision to find a new church in the town that we decided we went live in. So we were also brand new to a church community. Six months into starting there, the senior pastors left as well. And so goodness, we were like experiencing this whole other transition. And it was very hard for us for a number of reasons to get plugged in to a small group. So I would say it really took us several years because of multiple transitions and then new transitions that just kept arising. Me and I remember being very committed to praying very specifically, that God would provide us with some really solid community in this new place. We definitely made it a priority to stay connected to you know, old friends from college and it's kind of worked out well because a lot of our friends were getting married around that season. So there were actually many opportunities to still see old friends on a regular basis, but I would feel very, like significant signal for us was all of a sudden after a couple of years into our marriage, we were suddenly in this small group at our church that I was launching and literally it came together. Even like the day we were starting the group. We met these new people, they are now like godparents to our kids. They are our best friends here. We just saw God just bring answers to our prayer really around community but that didn't happen until three years after we got married, actually. Wow. And so that is really the most tangible piece that I would say. We always look back on that we're like, wow, like that was such a gift from God to receive. And I think there were other celebrations along the way, but that was definitely the most significant one.

Jon Steele  16:16  
Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. You know, I mean, even just giving that context of like, this was three years in the making. Okay. When we when we commit to change when we step into this neutral zone, we have we have to be ready for it to be a road. Like, this is a bit this could be a bit of a haul it might not be, but it certainly could be a few years, even that you're committing to this. And what I and what I hear in the midst of you talking is that there were other commitments that you were making. I heard you talk about a commitment to prayer and a commitment to staying connected to other community members. And that's really interesting to me, because in this neutral zone, this kind of limbo state, I think we can almost feel out of control. Like there's nothing that we have control over. And I think that we can say that that's actually not true. Like there is a lot of stuff that's happening to us. But there are some of those things that you can commit to and say one of the familiar things that I have control over is in continuing to dig into this relationship with Jesus being steadfast in prayer. That's something I did before. I'm going to do it now. And so you can almost like create places of familiarity by continuing to do some of your old practices and be like, Okay, I've got some home base stable stepping stones. I've got my people that I can still talk to and confide in, even if we're not going to large group or small group or church together all the time. We're not grabbing ice cream on a Friday night like we used to, but we could still grab ice cream and jump on the phone together. You could put some of those things, those those stable stepping stones and just like I'm going to commit to these things until I find more stable ground in this place. And it sounds like that's, you know, that's something that that you that you did that helps you make span that three year gap until you were like, Okay, we're starting to find some more consistency here in the world around us. And yeah, I think that there are places where we can actually have control in a time of life that feels really out of control.

Kathy Shiau  18:18  
Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's, I would say an extra layer and all of that was that we were committed to staying in touch with old friends and continuing to just experience community and things like that with them long distance, but the reality is to that those who are sometimes hard to navigate to because not all of us are going through the same changes at the same time. And so I think about know one of my closest friends from college and she was not married and you know, we were kind of in different life stages wrestling through different types of changes. And so there were you know, so there were changes to our, our friendship as well for several years and but we remain connected to each other through that and are still very close to this day, which I'm grateful for.

Jon Steele  19:14  
Yeah, that's interesting that even on a mic like on a micro level, you have some of those things that are going of sort of this like saying goodbye this neutral stage and then this new beginning even within some of those relationships that that is happening on a on a small level as it's happening on this grander scale like across your across your life. That's That's fascinating. I this is this is really silly. But as you were talking I was thinking through also like what are my like, what was one of my indicators and as I'm, as I was in as I was in Mankato, Minnesota, that's where I still am. That's where I went to grad school. Been here for 13 some years, something like that now, and one of the things that stands out to me is I knew how to get places like I knew how to navigate the Mankato streets like that. Not nowhere near as sort of depth of experiences like and I found it as we found this really great small group of community. But for me, that was one of my markers that I was like, I'm starting to find my place here is that I actually know when people who are from here say like, Oh, we're going to be hanging out here. It's like, I know how to get there. I don't I don't, I don't need to go to Mapquest and print off my directions anymore. You listening? Quest is that's all right. You can look it up, go to a museum. I'm sure they talked about it somewhere. No, that's really fantastic. I think those are such such a helpful framework and really helpful stories for us to get to kind of cling to as we as we think about stepping into these stages of transition. Kathy, we've gotten to cover so many really good things here. But it's possible that a there's either something that you were like ready to share that I didn't ask the right question to sort of lead us into that place. If that's the case. Please share that with us or be that you just have a piece of advice or to to like gift to our alumni in transition.

Kathy Shiau  21:08  
Yeah, I know you've asked great questions and I was thinking about this advice piece and I feel like I said some of the things that I typically advise to people as they're making that transition from student to post grad. But I think maybe the only thing I haven't explicitly said is and this this may be geared more towards folks who are graduating from like an undergrad program. Just in terms of like their age and things like that, although this may apply to folks when they're finishing masters or doctorates as well. But I just really encourage people in their 20s to not be in a rush to figure out what the rest of your life is going to be about and or what I should clarify in that is, it's too early to start to focus in and only hone in and to kind of shrink your world and make it about just a few things. But really in your 20s Most of us are still in a season of life where we're still uncovering things that we enjoy things that we're good at all of those things and this is not just with hobbies, but we're gonna have a job. So many of us think one thing when we're in high school about this is what I want to be when I grew up so here's the major that I choose. And this determines the schools I applied to and we start to go down this track, which, you know, isn't necessarily bad in and of itself, but if we hadn't been paying attention to maybe any unsettled feelings about that along the way, I guess the news is, is that that doesn't go away, though. It doesn't go away. Once you land a job. It doesn't always get better. And so I just really encourage folks to just pay you know, pay attention to what's bubbling under the surface because truly, it doesn't leave you if you feel it now. It's there. If anything, it may grow over time and depending if that's a good thing or a bad thing, you know, you don't necessarily want that to Yeah, so I would say don't be in a rush to feel like you need to have things figured out right away upon graduation and you're behind if you don't take the time in your 20s when you have the luxury to especially if you're somebody that does isn't a young parent you know, like you have the ability to make changes with less impact on other people. So that is the advice I like to give.

Jon Steele  23:53  
That's I really appreciate that advice. Kathy we last summer sometime we actually got to have a conversation with Paul Tokunaga, who told us something very similar about our 20s that our 20s is a time for testing things out. It's not like you said it's not a time to shrink your world. It's a time to expand it. And and that even feels like a really helpful way to think about that sort of that neutral zone of like, this isn't just the time to sort of cover your head and get through it. Like make the most of this time of transition that this sort of neutral zone of test some stuff out. Try it out. Like not only are you trying to figure out where should you go to church and who are the people that you should be friends with? Like you're also starting to figure out what are my adult hobbies? Like are they still the things that I enjoy doing? Are they are they what I enjoyed in high school in college or are not like let's test all of these things out and sort of compare them side by side. And it's an opportunity to try new cuisines new foods from the places that you go like the new towels that you end up in? And there's just so many things that you can explore and discover that it feels like you know, your advice kind of adds life and flavor to this in between period that could feel sort of lifeless and flavorless at times because we're just trying to get to a goal. And instead of no like experience life, take the time to experience life in this space. And it'll help you bridge that three year gap until you're until you're able to look back and say like oh yeah, man God's been really faithful in this time. And here we are celebrating some really exciting things together. I think that's fantastic advice, Kathy. Thank you.

Kathy Shiau  25:37  
Yeah, thank you. 

Jon Steele  25:39  
Yeah. Hey, Kathy, this has been man, there's probably some some places in editing where I'm gonna have to adjust my own volume because I've noticed that when I get excited about stuff, I get much louder. There's been moments where I've felt myself just getting loud because because this has been such a fun conversation and I think such a, an easily applicable you've given us some really great, this really great framework that helps us again, I think sort of see the world around us. A little bit more clearly as we walk through transition. And so thank you so much for investing time and taking your own experiences and study and investing in our alumni as they step into this new season of life. I'm I'm really grateful for this time we get to spend together.

Kathy Shiau  26:23  
Absolutely. Now it is my pleasure. And you know, I shared this with you the other day that the first time that I read this book and thought through the framework. I was like, man, you're just been so helpful for me to know before I started going through all these significant life changes. And so it's really my pleasure to be able to share this with others and hopefully, the things that you're going through then won't feel so isolating or you won't you know, if you start to feel the more negative emotions that you can just realize, okay, this is just par for the course and here's what I can do to keep on going in it. So, truly, it's my pleasure to be able to do this.

Musical Interlude
 
Wrap up

Jon Steele  27:13  
This is one of those conversations that I walk away from saying wow, I wish I'd known this when I graduated. It would have been so helpful to have a framework like this to give me some language for what I was experiencing in my own post graduation transitions. Even Cathy's final encouragement of Don't be in such a rush to feel like you need to have things figured out right away or that you're behind. If you don't I mean to my parents credit, I'm sure they gave me that advice countless times. Thank you, Mom and Dad, but I know that all I wanted was to have it figured out. I wanted the answers for what God was doing in my life and why in the world he was doing it this way, especially when things didn't go the way I anticipated. Alumni Take it from me please hear Kathy's words of wisdom from these last two episodes. Many of you probably do feel the pressure to have it all figured out just like I did, just like I'm sure Cathy did. But the truth is you don't give yourself space and this time of major transition. You have your whole life to figure out what it is that Gods Do it. Do what you can to slow down and experience it. The good, the bad, the boring. Now, be purposeful. Don't just sit down and do nothing. But don't fast forward the process. Live into your transition and experience all the goodness that God has in store along the way. And for those of you who don't feel this way right now, that's so great, but keep this knowledge file away because at some point you'll need it for another transition where you do feel this way. Just as a resource reminder for you here. I mentioned this last episode, but it's worth mentioning again if you haven't read after college by Erica young writes do it Chapter Two speaks about this exact framework. You can use your alumni discount and purchase it on IV PS website. And if you already own it and have read it, read it again. You'll be really glad that you did. Kathy, thank you so much for helping us kick off this finding your footing series so well. We needed your wisdom and experience and I'm really grateful that we got to learn from you. And for the rest of you come back next time as we kick off what I think will be a very interesting experiment. We're going to be talking to Nolan, a current senior who's basically moments away from graduation, we're going to hear about what it's like to be in the process of ending well and moving into the neutral zone. Then we'll check back in with him again in a few months to see how his transitions going. Also, you'll get to hear the sound of genuine shock from me as Nolan reveals a piece of information that I wasn't expecting to hear during our conversation. Check in next time to find out what that was. 

Podcast Outro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Hey, thanks so much. for joining us today. Alumni. If there was anything that you learned, really enjoyed or they encouraged you from today's episode, would you send us a DM or tag us in a story? We'd love to hear about it. You can find us at After IV pod on Instagram and Facebook. And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast. If your platform lets you leave us a rating and a review. And if you'd like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post graduation friends. Thanks again for listening and I will see you in the after, alumni.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai