033 | The Bottom-up Trade: aka where to build brands regardless if on or off-trade | Part 2/2 with Julian Marsili, Global Drinks Brand Director (Copenhagen, DK)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 033, I continued the conversation I had in episode 032 with Julian Marsili. He is a Global Drinks Brand Director who has many years of experience in the drinks business. He is behind the successful global rejuvenation of the Carlsberg brand, the launch of Alcohol-Free brews and other Portfolio Innovations. He has previously managed Peroni Nastro Azzurro in Italy. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

This is a two part-episode, so Don't forget to listen to episode 032 as well. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Time Stamps

(00:35); The Bottom-up Trade

(02:45); Target Spaces

(07:23); Recovering Brand Essence

(12:24); Marketeer Disconnection From Trade

(19:57); 1% Everyday

(25:30); Distinctiveness Vs Differentiation

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Julian Marsili

Commercial Executive | Ex Peroni, Carlsberg

What is MAFFEO DRINKS Industry Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

In episode 33, I continue the
conversation I had in episode 32

with Julia Marsili.
He's a global drinks brand

director who has many years of
experience in the drinks

business.
He's behind the successful

rejuvenation of the Casper brand
globally, the launch of alcohol

free brews and other portfolio
innovations.

He has previously managed
Peronina Slezure in Italy.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
Remember that this is a two-part

episode, so don't forget to
listen to episode 32 as well.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
There is always this

disconnection between marketing
and sales that we should strive

to like as a distance.
Like we should strive to to

shorten and this is also the
kind of like me, a cool panel

from sales people and from
marketeers in actually managing

to get into a same conversation
and having a constructive debate

without having any extremisms in
the talk.

Yes.
When I hear your podcast, I was

hearing the guy from Lantiquario
that is a conversation you want

to have with a customer together
with your sales guy and you're

talking to that customer and
that he gave us our couture is a

lesson on how you build brands
through customers in a place and

that is the kind of conversation
you want to enable.

Unfortunately in my career
working for bigger companies,

the marketing guy is always cold
together with the sales guys.

I'm the customer when it's about
let's squeeze some money.

So I I cannot give you any more
sales that's contribution.

But I I guess this guy's got
some money so let's bring him in

and let's tell him out.
The customer and the sales guys,

you know I've got this fantastic
idea.

It's a negotiation and you're
being played whereas other times

when you are actually going.
Just bring me out.

One day a week I will come out
with a different sales guy and

the agenda is just tell me what
your problems are.

Tell me what the customer
problems are.

Do you have any ideas or how can
we come up with ideas to to

solve that customer pain point
and so forth?

That's when the fun starts, when
the real business starts

flowing.
And I've had the luck of being a

trade market year, holding the
hand of marketing guys and the

hand of sales guys and that's
been the most fun.

Part of my career where I talk
about assortment, pricing,

distribution, placement and
customeration and this is the

the dark side of the off
premise.

But you can build brands bottom
up even in the off premise.

My, my, my dear Christian, now,
now, now, now we can start it.

The hardcore of the
conversation.

Not just now in.
Places like Antiquity now.

You are attacking me on my home
ground now jokes about, I mean

this is actually a very
interesting conversation and we

were talking about that like
briefly before because I've been

thinking about this a lot and we
had several conversation about

on trade, off trade also with
the off trade people in the

companies I work with and my old
career and so on.

And it's always it's not that on
trade is cool and off trade is

not or the on trade is the brand
building space and the off trade

is the trading milking space.
There is a thin line and and

it's often very specific on
countries and cities.

No, because if you take New York
and Miami they are two totally

different animals.
It's still East Coast let's call

it still US.
But in New York, it's a much

more European kind of set up
where the bottle shops play a

big role and in which the off
trade, it's a brand building of

trade.
There is a guy or a girl.

They're like helping you get the
right bottle for the right

price.
What you're looking for if you

take Miami, it's big chains, so
it's more like modern of trade

and you go there and you just
shop with your cart and you're

stuck it with bottles.
So if you go back to, for

example, our homeland in Rome, I
mean all these enotecas and the

wine shops, that's where you go
and buy a nice rum, a nice

whiskey, specific beers as well.
But if you go to Prague where I

live, there's no such thing as a
bottle shop like the I can name

you five of them and they're
probably all the ones in the

city.
And and this is what we were

discussing earlier, there is AI
would call it like a bottom up

trade and a top down trade.
A bottom of trade is the brand

building space regardless if
it's on or off.

And then the off trade the what
we know as off trade is more

like the the top down trade
there's.

Places where you build your
brand and there's places where

you trade your brand and it
doesn't.

And it depends, as you say, on
the city, on the area, so forth.

They have those two logics and
they can be on one hand and not

a non trade or an and an off
trade.

There can be.
An off trade, which is a

proximity off trade which is a
smaller shop in the city centre.

Maybe it doesn't have the the
the sales Rep inside the helps

you make the choice, but it has
convenience, it is properly

located and it has a fantastic
assortment of the things you are

looking for.
For a quick but premium dinner,

whatever I know so so that is a
place where you build your brand

because I have a need I need so
I got guests coming over.

Where do I go?
I go there and I find good

stuff.
And that and as long as you're

good, you're selling good stuff.
When you're there you are

building your brand in in that
place and you can use of trade

if used correctly as a brand
building place.

Even supermarket owner wants his
products to sell.

Who wants to occupy the space
that it sells has to sell more

for him.
It's not just it doesn't get you

just to put you on a shelf and
collect dust.

He wants your product to sell.
So like the way you work with a

small bottler with a small bar
owner, you can work with a big

distributor to to make sure that
that your brand is visible, gets

the right rate of sales and so
forth before you expand it.

The trouble is U.S. market is
one of you think big and maybe

the sales guys that work in the
offer of us want to go wide.

So you go wide too.
Too fast, too soon.

Look for you built your brand
and there are ways in place.

I mean there's data in place
which is the axis of rate of

sales and weighted distribution.
You look at your rate of sales,

if it goes up, we're above the
average, then you start

expanding it into greater
distribution.

You always have to think that
distribution is a cost, it's a

mega cost, but that cost is now
is often relegated into is there

a listing fee that you will put
in the contract and.

You don't measure it, you forget
about it, and somehow you want

to go as far as possible.
But it's expensive to distribute

and if your brand is not
working, you might as well just

spend that money making sure
that the brand works in the

places in which you are before
thinking of the next place you

go.
You nailed it there on on this

tracking mechanism.
Because I had many fights in my

corporate days.
I always looked holistically,

you know, and I said this is
super expensive, these

activations.
Like, no.

Why?
It's like, you know, it's this

money and this.
And it was like, yeah, but

you're forgetting the listing
fee.

No, but that's another cost
center.

You know, that's listing fees.
Now we're not paying because

that's paid already by global or
that's already paid by

marketing.
That's not our sales.

And you know you forget about
the old thing and then you just

look at your small patch of land
and you forget about the

holistic approach.
Not I appreciate your challenge

on building in off trade and
there is an element that it's

working only with certain
retailers that allow some

customization at outlet level
because I I feel the big chains

depending on the market we're in
the big chains that are

centralized, it's much more
difficult to play that game that

you're talking about.
But if you look at chains that

allow a little bit more like the
reason owner that is affiliated

with the chain and then you can
have a proper conversation and

then it begins more of a bar
owner type of conversation hence

the the bottom up trade.
No, we agree that we don't want

to grow too fast too quickly
because otherwise we burn it.

But then you have been in
situation where the brand have

been grown too much too quickly.
So how can you fix that when

things go out of hand?
So how do you go back to the

rules we discussed about from a
brand perspective on looking

back at what worked and so on.
But from a more trade

perspective, how do you do that?
Like I work with some brands

that are more like mainstream
now and when I try to list them

to rejuvenate them because
that's a nice word that we are

going to talk about.
Now this, this is all

rejuvenation, let's target Gen.
Z, let's target millennials when

until 15 years ago it was
millennials, now it's Gen.

Z and but then I go to a bar and
I want to lease that product.

And then my dear Alex from
Lantiguaria that you quoted that

she's like, I'm not going to
list this stuff here.

I mean this is like on promo at
the corner shop behind my flats

and it's on super promo all the
time in off trade in

supermarkets.
I'm never going to list this

brand.
So how can you connect these two

worlds in these rejuvenation
efforts, so to say?

I think in my experience, where
it has worked is going back to

the essence.
So on the Kasberg branch we

started from redesigning how the
brand looked.

OK, so it had been chasing
Heineken forever, wanting to be.

The next Heineken and had
forgotten the beauty of the

design that had been created by
Torvald Bitness Bowl, who'd been

paid €10 to draw this iconic
Carlsberg logo that had so many

stories behind it and so forth.
And we went back to relook at

the overall brand experience,
which was not just what you say,

but it's no what you brew,
What's in the brew.

Or surround how you look and the
way and what you do as a brat.

So you go back and rebuild
little by little and you start

talking to your consumers and
your customers to figure out, is

this interesting, do you like
it?

And getting proof points of this
is actually something I didn't

know about that actually this
looks really good, this looks

cool and that story starts over
again.

You get back to having a
distinctive.

Visual identity, having a brew
that has something interesting

in it and the story that people
are interested in and you go

back when you dig.
And I'm not saying that

Antiquario is going to buy you,
but people around him are going

to be talking about it.
And at some point somebody would

say it's natural that yeah, I
could see a whatever brand in

this place.
It wouldn't be out of place at

the moment.
You're completely out of place.

Because all the people know you
is that you're on promotion

outside and that's all they know
because that's the only

reference point you're given to
them.

And then there's also a fine
balance of we've been there,

right?
What do you do?

You cover your tracks, you
remove the way you have come,

and that doesn't work either.
We've done that.

I've been part of it on, I must
say, on the receiving end of

Nastrad Zurro exiting pizzerias,
because pizzerias were not a

cool place.
And I was saying, come on, but

there's the best pizzerias in
town.

Yes, they haven't got a white
tablecloth, but it's the best

pizzas where people go for the
best and you're the best beer

that goes with the best pizza.
Going back to this extremism,

no, that between marketing and
sales.

And there's no right or wrong
here.

It's it's just sometimes it's
the sales that are the

extremists, sometimes they are
the marketers.

And I've been on both sides.
I've done mistakes and we

discussed that over lunch in the
Katzenberg office and and

elsewhere.
And this is the thing that there

is also an element of when a
brand goes to big then it starts

with the global local kind of
discussions now and then, OK,

the global identity says this
and the local market thinks and

acts differently then we will
lose track of is that what

happens in the trade is what
actually sticks to people.

And I remembered, I mean I've
been living abroad for 18 years

now and I remembered those years
when I went back to my favorite

pizzerias in Rome and all of a
sudden I couldn't drink drink

Nastrazuro anymore.
And I could only drink Peroni

because they had swapped the
kegs and and the phones because

all of a sudden Nastrazuro
shouldn't be in pizzerias and.

And then the week after and the
week after MENA Brea came and

the week after MENA Brea comes,
Yeah.

And still forgetting and and
that's the thing and and this is

where it's so crucially
important because you you

mentioned that earlier not the
the marketing guy walking with

the sales guy to the bar and
like they they drag him in as

the we call it the chicken not
the poker table.

Let's get some money from
Julian.

He never plays poker.
I I bring you a friend and he

wants he wants to start to play
poker let's bring him in and

there is this element of like
why do we lose touch with the

trade as marketeers and now why
do we need an invitation.

And my answer is that often is
laziness from the marketeers,

because it's more fancy to be
sitting in a Ogilvy office in

central London then to go to a
pub in Clapham.

But then often is also like this
silo mentality.

Imagine I'm a sales guy and you
are the marketing guy.

If I find out that you went to
my client and you spoke to the

barman, you know, with your
marketing hat on, then first

thing I do I call you is like,
Julian, what the hell are you

doing?
Why are you talking to my

clients?
You know, because it's my

client.
It's not our brand's client,

it's my client because I'm the
sales guy, you know.

So there is this silo thinking
merge with laziness, with what's

convenient and that's the recipe
for disaster in my opinion.

No, because then all of a sudden
are you, you cannot enter bars

because you get slash from the
sales guys.

So then where do you go?
You go to advertising agencies

and then let's run a research,
what do brand, what do

bartenders want?
Let's call them a marketing

agency, a research agency, let's
gather 40 bartenders and let's

have a like qualitative
interviews and so on.

So there is this element but I
feel it also goes back to what

you were saying earlier about
going back to the basics, going

back to the rules because if you
keep the basics and and you make

a rule that you cannot get bored
with basics.

You know, I always bring the
Hendrix example with the

cucumber, the apparel example,
the compat, you know like all

these successful, the Guinness
example, Guinness is a benchmark

but is it not always being a
benchmark?

There has been some drives in
which they had to re establish

the serve because things that
got out of hand, but then all of

a sudden is OK, we stick to
that.

You know the poor takes what it
takes to do.

We only serve it in certain
pubs.

We don't go that wide in
distribution.

And you know if you don't stop
doing that basic while you grow

the brand wouldn't have that
issue huh.

But correct me if I'm wrong.
If what?

What's your take on my?
My my take on why is that

happen, Why does that happen and
how can we avoid to make it

happen?
To me is 2 things.

One is culture.
If we go back to to speaking

about those founders, if I was
going to talk to Mr. Peroni, or

if I was going to talk to Mr.
Jacobson and I told him that I

was going to Ogilvy instead of
going to customer, how many

couching coolers we say kicks in
the ass we would be getting from

that founder.
That's a cultural this is how

you do business and that's
culture has to permeate.

And the second one is.
You need to hire marketeers to

know what marketing is all about
and marketing is not just

advertising.
Marketing is the whole business

seen from the customers point of
view.

When you get that you think of
you go back to your cotton or

four PS, you know think about
the product, the price, the

place and then the promotion and
and a lot of people just talk

about promotion as it is either
a sales discount or an

advertising campaign and that
seems that's all we're talking

about.
It's the constant fight between.

Top of mind and pilots, there's
much more before that and making

sure that you understand that
your customer service is

marketing your, your truck
delivery is marketing, your

sales guy is a marketeer and so
forth.

That's how you ensure that your
brilliant basics are are in

place.
And yeah, I've been that guy who

didn't want to go, but I've
learned that was a mistake.

And when I've done those
immersions and really.

Got back to it.
It's been super instrumental and

also let's just come from an
eliminated Co.

So the example you did before
about listing fees, I had ACO

came along and said listing fees
are a cost.

We're going to put them above
the line and we're going to

measure them last.
Suddenly there were everybody's

cost.
He just said another CEO in

Pinoni came, you know what we're
going to achieve colleague.

So we're going to go in the
South.

Where people drink lots of our
beers, where they're sitting on

a nice buckets of Peroni Reds
and they're drinking a ton of it

all day.
We want to go talk to those guys

because there's a they are a big
portion of our distributors a

business with.
Have you ever spoken?

I said no.
Have you ever been in a cheap

Curry?
No, we went to cheap Curry.

You'll cover stories and culture
of the use of your product which

you would never uncover.
With through a marketing

research or using another famous
way, we use marketing research

as a drunkard uses a lamppost
more for support rather than the

illumination.
You just use it to test what you

think because you think you are
the consumer.

So you just use your research to
prove you are right and go along

rather than, you know, looking
for new ways in or or other ways

to do business that's so.
It goes back to culture.

It goes back to culture of the
business and knowing how to

market stuff.
And you've had a lot of guest

speakers build that have built
brands bottom up that have shown

that pattern.
This is how you do things and

consistently doing them in a
freshly consistent way has

gotten them to where they are
today.

There is that quote now the
tough times create.

Tough man and then good times
creates weak men.

Sometimes you enter a company on
the glory days and then you know

you think it's because of you
that the success is happening,

but actually it's for your work
obviously, but also for external

factors.
And you think that those hard

things and the what I call the
unsexy stuff or the boring stuff

is not important because I know
that in theory I should go to

visit bars at least once a week.
But I haven't been to bars for a

year.
Nothing happened to the friend.

We're still growing so it's not
that needed in the end.

But then when you when then when
she happens, then all of a

sudden is oh, but what should we
do?

And then if you had done it and
it's a little bit like we see

with everything in life, if you
skip the gym for a month,

nothing happens.
Like you can still have a beer

and a pizza and a carbonara to
York at your home.

Yeah, nothing will happen and
then all of a sudden summer

comes and then you think you
haven't gained anything.

But then there's women's suit,
there's a little bit it was

washed at 90 degrees, probably
doesn't fit anymore.

So it's is this keeping the eye
on the trajectory on the long

term things but then taking care
of the short steps and the 1%

efforts?
It's bottom up and top down.

It's not just, it's not either
or.

It's both OK now you want done.
Now you really want to fight,

OK?
When you're big, when you're big

you do you need to do both and
and I think you just forget.

Then you forget and potentially
since you've forgotten you have

to do 70% go back to bottom up
and and leave that top down

stuff to to feed the the beast
or make sure that that that

things.
The, the, the, the machines are

oiled.
The big machines that you have

are oiled so that once you get
back into the gear it goes fast

because you can't abandoned
that.

So that's why I'm being as we
say demo Cristiano and putting

you can do both when you're big.
The importance lies into the and

not either this or that, but
it's one and the other.

And you're right.
And we always have funny fights

on bottom up and top down
because ultimately the drive

that I push on the bottom up is
that it's easier to do top down.

I shouldn't remind anybody to do
it top down because top down

happens by default.
So it's the path of least

resistance is top down, yes.
So everybody does top down, but

very few people do the bottom
up.

So hence I'm pushing the both
bottom up narrative.

No.
But ultimately you need to grow.

And there is a moment in which
you have to do stuff that is

happening top down.
But the way to look at it is to

really like never stop thinking
bottom up, Never stop this

Challenger mindset.
Because even though you're

driving a posh car and you're
doing good money and revenues

and you bought a house, remember
what made you buy that house and

that car?
And it was not the last year, it

was like the the 10 years before
that that got you there now.

But ultimately is what you say,
it's both depending on the life

stage and often because I'm, I
mainly speak to smaller brands

like on on average I speak to
both the big and small.

But then if you take quantities,
then of course there's more

small brands than big brands out
there and there is a tendency to

think too fast.
I want to grow and I'm already

in, in 20 markets and I'm like
are you in 20 markets?

What are you doing in 20
markets?

It's you and your cousin and
what are you doing in 20

markets?
Like it doesn't really move

anything.
And OK like you can put it in a

presentation, a pitch deck, you
can put available in 20 markets.

I I talk about this because I I
think about it because I always

challenge myself and say yeah,
but I'm also saying that my

podcast is listening 73 markets
in 73 countries, but that was

bottom up because I didn't force
anyone.

I didn't do advertising in 73
countries.

It's just that people from 73
countries are listening to it

and because it created the
demand bottom up, so they

decided freely to listen to the
podcast.

So there is an element, you know
if there is demand, go to

Scotland, go to Latvia, go to
Sweden.

If you've got 10 bars that keep
on asking your product and then

you contact an importer and then
hey, there has this 10 bars and

I went there and they they
already want my product, then

fine, go there.
But don't stretch yourself too

thin by going to countries just
because some random importer

contacted you from whatever,
China or Japan or Thailand

saying we want to buy a pallet.
Yep, because nothing is going to

happen there.
And let's let me ask you this

other question.
So building on your both ISM.

Another stolen quote, but yes, I
love it.

You introduced me to Mark Ritson
and my niece Mini MBA and also

to the like This things that
happens every now and then.

Like there are these hypes on
LinkedIn with the Byron Sharp

and Mark Ritson and who agrees
with whom and and so on.

So left give us some short
overview about this on the

dualism between differentiation
and distinctiveness.

What is it about and what's your
take on that?

My take is the power of the word
and be it be it a

differentiation and
distinctiveness, be it long term

or short term thinking, long
term sales and short term

activations and so forth, it's
about going back to.

What has made you who you are?
Know what your brand is, who

know what drives some
distinctiveness into the way you

look.
So I'm super advocate of making

sure, even in the way you design
your brand, you design how it

looks, how it feels.
You introduce some elements that

are distinctive, that over the
time will become some

distinctive brand assets.
And those are the shortcuts.

That you are putting in your
packaging, maybe in your

communication, in your sales
pitch, in, in whatever you do.

Shortcuts that allow your
customer to think of you when

they are in a buying situation.
That's the power of a

distinctive asset, which Byron
Sharp talks about profusely.

And then he says differentiation
does not matter because there's

no difference between an iPhone
and a Samsung and so forth.

And in some cases he's right, in
other cases he he is not right.

So I am in the camp of there is
both that you can work on books

and there is brand sort of a
bilge success working on on both

of those animals.
So that's where I stand.

But for somebody who's building
a new brand, really knowing

where you come from, knowing
what you stand for, knowing your

product inside out, yes.
But already start building some

element of distinctiveness.
There's something that I would

encourage everybody to think
about.

The cucumber is distinctive,
right?

You've mentioned it before.
The orange of apero spreads

everything orange that is
distinctive, right?

So there's something that comes
to mind.

I love that.
And there is also another point

which is on some of the books
that I read that they talk about

be different rather than be
better as well.

No, because I think it's
connected to this

distinctiveness and
differentiation.

I don't know where where you
would put in this in, but it's

on the fact that many brands
that say or drink this gin, this

is better.
It's not about being better,

it's about being different.
What do you bring to the table

because we should go out of the
taste profile of people.

I mean, you like a gin, I like
another gin.

That's.
So that's the thing.

But then if it's Mediterranean
gin versus a London drive versus

a something with some specific
botanicals or what does it bring

to the table, then it's not
about this is better than this

one same thing with whiskeys.
But it's like, what are you

looking for and what are you
pitching on that specific demand

space and?
Yeah, I I I don't have a recipe

I am a fan of better.
But great fan of constant

pursuit of better that was in
the the Karlsberg brand DNA.

But I think it's about being
interesting be tell me something

that's interesting about you and
and make me you know make me

want to know more So different
or interesting that I would go

for interesting that is
interesting.

Hendrix gin if that's not
interesting that world that has

been created around that that is
super interesting.

So that's where I would work.
My way through doing the

delivering a great product, but
making it interesting.

It's also about also giving this
kind of like ammunition, the

social currency to people.
Because what I've seen in my

experience and myself as well,
the best products are the one

that are easy to explain and
simple to explain.

So that I come to Julian's
because he invites me for his

carbonara nights in Copenhagen.
And I bring you a bottle.

And with simple words I can
explain to you and your guests

or either to you because I'm
usually the first one to arrive.

And then you can sell it back to
your friends.

You know, try this product that
Chris brought me because and

also and then all of a sudden
people can go and buy it again.

Oh, I love this product.
And they go and buy it and they

can sell their friends when they
organize another dinner.

But if you go on all these crazy
stories that nobody remembers

just because the agency told you
to work on storytelling, then

interesting goes off the off the
Cliff.

The story has to be delivered in
a simple and understandable way,

and the reaction has to be
that's interesting.

So you're touching another
massive button that I have on my

book, one of the fortunes of
working for big corporations as

I got to travel the world and I
met the founder of Patagonia, so

Yon Shennard.
When he gave me, I went He's got

this wonderful book that I
encourage everybody to live

readers, let my people go
surfing.

It's a way of how you manage
your business and how you get

great products and happy people.
So what?

He wrote on it, says Dear
Julian, keep it simple.

That was his advice to the man
who has made a very successful

bottom up sustainable clothing
company is Keep it Simple.

And now that is.
Definitely.

There is money around that
description that you just gave

me.
I've heard you speak about Flip

explaining flavor profile in a
very simple way.

It's stacked without that.
Who is like this?

But with this, you get it.
Yeah, we wanted it.

Yes.
That's an incredible story to to

tell and to have.
And it reminds me, for example,

of the Master Brewery at the
Pierce Naraco Brewery.

When they hand over to each
other, they just say don't

change anything, you know, And
that's that has been the story

for the last 180 years.
And that is the thing.

Like, it's it, it goes crazy.
I don't know who is pushing us

to, to change stuff for the sake
of changing.

And you say if it's not broken,
don't fix it.

No.
But ultimately, it's about

keeping the consistency, the
saliency, the if it starts not

to work, ask yourself why it's
not working.

Is it something that we change?
Can we go back to it or is it

exogenous and can we do
something about it?

Yes.
So I think that's a great way of

closing the conversation.
And let me ask you to tell the

audience where can they find you
where they can have interesting

conversation with you.
I can reach out to you another

mantra, which is again another
stolen quote.

But I, which I, which I love, is
do interesting things and

interesting things will happen
to you.

So I'm always up for interesting
conversations and you can find

me on LinkedIn, on Julia,
Marsili, you can.

I'm the only one there.
And that's where you can reach

out to me and then start a
conversation.

So LinkedIn would be my
favorite.

Place to engage in in business
conversations.

Carbonaras somewhere else.
Thanks Julian.

That show was it was great
talking to you.

Likewise, Chris, have a
fantastic day.

Thank you.
Remember that this is A2 parts

episode, so don't forget to
listen to episode 32 and 33.

That's all for today.
If you liked it, please rate it,

leave a comment and share it
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week for more insights about
building brands from The Bottom

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