052 | How a Crystal-Clear Target Occasion Helps you Stand Out in the Busiest Market for Your Category | Part 1/2 with Justin Medcraft, Founder of Mate Maker (Los Angeles, CA, USA)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 52, I enjoyed chatting with Justin Medcraft, the Founder of Mate Maker Hard Kombucha.

He brings a wealth of previous experience in Spirits and Beer. We discussed how to build demand for a start-up drinks brand, stand out amongst a sea of products, and focus on building momentum.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.

One last thing: If you enjoy this podcast, you will also like the MAFFEO DRINKS Guides. You can subscribe free or paid on maffeodrinks.com

Time Stamps

0:00 Introduction

2:04 Building Demand

3:49 Building Community: Brand Or Liquid?

6:15 Mate Maker Elevator Pitch

11:26 The Consumer Pitch

13:07 The Ring Road

19:39 Determining Direction

26:05 Home Turf Advantage

35:09 Growing Beyond Your Hometown

38:01 Outro

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Justin Medcraft

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Justin Medcraft

Founder | Mate Maker

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafail Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafeo.
In episode 52, I had the

pleasure of chatting with Justin
Medcraft.

He is the founder of Mate Maker
Hard Kombucha.

He brings a wealth of previous
experience in spirits and beer.

We dived into how to build
demand on a startup drinks

brand, how to stand out amongst
a sea of products and learning

how to get focused to build
momentum.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
One last thing, if you enjoyed

this podcast, you will also like
the Mafia Drinks guides.

You can subscribe free or paid
on mafiadrinks.com.

Hi, Justin, How you doing?
Good, Chris.

How are you?
I'm good, I'm good.

I think from our outfit it looks
like that we are calling from a

slightly different weather and
time zones where you where

you're based.
Now, different parts of the

world for sure.
I'm currently in Los Angeles in

California.
You know your outfit was looking

much fresher than mine with a
jumper and, you know, -3°

outside.
Yeah, I hear it's winter in

California, but probably not as
cold as what it's what it's

looking like for you over there.
Actually, finally we had

honeymoon in California.
I haven't told you this with my

wife and we managed to get rain
in LA.

Wow, so you probably got one of
the single days in the whole

year.
We got actually rain in Palm

Springs as well, so I think we
were wow.

Well, we'll have to get you back
out here and we can definitely

show you some proper California
weather.

Yeah, very similar to some of
the Australian summers.

I think that we we get over in
Australia very dry and very warm

but perfect beach weather.
I'll take your offer.

So let's let's dive in on this
very interesting conversation

because having someone based in
California and I mean obviously

with your Australian heritage,
so you will be, we will be

bouncing back and forth from the
West Coast to to Australia I

guess.
But let's start with your

experience.
I mean you are a seasoned drinks

industry drinks builder as I as
I call ourselves.

Let's start with with my usual
question which is how do you

build demand for a brand.
So I I have this crusade against

brand awareness.
You know, I'm a big fan of

building demand rather than
building awareness because, you

know, awareness.
It is what it is now.

So how do you believe in
building demand for a brand like

yours?
I always look at demand as you

know, building a community of
people that like want your

product for smaller brands.
I think it's like really

important that you have a core
audience that believes in your

brand, believes in your
products, that you can kind of

build a community behind instead
of trying to be everything to

everybody right out of the
start.

I think it's like really, really
important that you identify you

kind of community at the start
and you know kind of build from

there, especially in the world
today where we've got like so

many emerging startup brands
that are kind of hitting the

industry and hitting the the
shelves.

You know, I think there's some
really standout ones that from

day one have like really focused
on community, focused on you

know, building that connection
with people and then you know

you've been able to kind of
replicate that as you start to

build out into like a much
larger audience.

I always look at like the
founding building blocks of a

new brand is like you know, are
you available and do people know

about you, you know, so for sure
awareness and physical

availability, distribution are
like critical making sure that

it shows up really well on
shelf.

But you know, I think the, the,
the thing that really resonates,

that is really hard to replicate
is you know, building that

meaningful connection with
people and creating a community

behind your brand that will then
allow that ripple effect to kind

of keep carrying on and almost
like turning your consumers into

ambassadors.
When you talk about building a

community, because I'm also a
big fan of of of that, like how

does that start?
You know, like does it start

from people that are looking for
something or like you know, does

it start with new brand, does it
start with the brand or with the

liquid?
What is the trigger to build

that community in in your
opinion?

Think like building value, you
know is is a really good way to

look at it.
When someone opens that can or

when someone picks up your
product or even discovers you in

a bar or you know liquor store,
what value are you bringing to

them or you know how you kind of
meeting the needs of the

occasion that they're looking to
buy.

It's always hard to pick a part.
Is it about the brand at the

first point of you know, contact
is about the liquid.

I think it kind of comes down to
both.

You know, I look at, I
definitely believe that you know

the brand is incredibly
important.

So what is that experience when
people see you on shelf, Are you

standing out?
Are you kind of resonating with

them at a level that you know
outshines your competition?

It kind of starts with that and
it starts with like having a bit

more of an experience with
people that connects to them on

a you know, deeper level.
But it definitely I think

finishes with the liquid.
I don't think the two are self

exclusive.
You know, I think if it's so

competitive today, Chris, you
know that if you don't have both

kind of working for you, you
know you'll eat up, get tried

once and never get picked up
again.

Or you know people won't even
find you and have the chance to

try you.
Even if you've got the best

liquid in the world, right?
If you haven't done all your

work in terms of how you show
up, are you available?

Is the product resonating with
people that you know meets the

needs, you know of what they're
looking for?

You could still have the best
liquid, but they might not even

find you or try you.
So I'm definitely a believer in

kind of having all things kind
of working because I think they,

you know, resonate with people
at different stages of their

cycle, right.
So I'm standing out on shelf.

Being at the right price is
incredibly important.

You know, where are you located
in store?

Are you in the fridge or are you
kind of on the shelf where no

one can find you?
There's so much, so many kind of

factors that go into it.
You know, for someone picking

you up for the first time, then
it all comes down to like are

you delivering on the taste?
You know, are you delivering on

giving them a great experience
and bring value to them?

And, you know, you could do
everything right before that,

but if you can't deliver on that
at the end, then, you know, the

likelihood of you kind of
getting that repeat purchase is

probably pretty low.
They'll probably move on to try

something else.
Building on what you're saying,

like how how do you explain
because I mean we haven't

mentioned yet your yeah, you
know your brand, you know, so

you your brand is a hard
Kombucha.

Yeah, we, we make organic hard
kombucha here in California

that's made with, you know, like
we're all real ingredients.

We use our real fruit juice,
organic green teas, you know,

real ingredients rather than, I
suppose, some of the artificial,

you know, ones that you find in
a lot of other products.

How do you explain the elevator
pitch now?

Because what I'm trying to get
to is that I'm always talking

about storytelling.
But in a, you know, I I divided

into a kind of like a fluffy
storytelling and a pragmatic

story telling.
There is the the the commercial

part, you know, there is the
actual OK what's in it for me

kind of part.
And after that I want to hear,

you know, what drove you to
build the brand And you know

it's a bunch of cool people that
created this brand and so on.

But very often I feel that you
know brands focus on their on

the emotional part much more.
You know you should have this

hard kombucha because it's made
by cool people rather and you

know it tastes great.
What's your elevator pitch when

you explain to the trade, to
buyers, to consumers what it is

about?
I I sort of look at it as like

the boardroom pitch versus the
kind of consumer pitch, right?

Because us being marketers, we
kind of like to fluff things up

in a in a very different way.
But at the end of the day,

you're right.
Then it's like if you got 2

seconds to have a conversation
with the consumer, like what do

you want to tell them?
If we were to kind of be sitting

in a boardroom, the retailer,
you know, and and walking them

through our story, I think the
narrative would be we're kind of

at a a big shift in alcohol.
Mindfulness, and moderation now

is prevalent and really
important to a lot of people

within their lives.
You know, people like to have

balance.
They like to look after

themselves, be active, you know,
and be really mindful on the

choices that they're making, not
only in alcohol but like across

every category in grocery.
People know now.

They turn the labels over.
They look at the ingredients,

They understand like what all
those ingredients mean.

And I think that movement of
transparency, mindfulness and

moderation, you know, is
relatively new to alcohol,

transparencies, being in, you
know, food, dairy.

Are there kind of categories for
a long, long time?

I think that over the last few
years that started to really

scratch the surface in alcohol
mate maker or our brand is very

much about how do we start to
give people that are looking for

an option that kind of lives in
this space of transparent

ingredients, sustainable, you
know, processes and also, you

know, mindfulness around
balance, right.

And making sure that alcohol
plays the right role in people's

lives around, you know, when
people want to have a drink or

connect with their friends,
they've got something that lives

up to that.
We we try to create products

that live up to that promise
really for those people that are

looking for those types of
options.

So you know, we're sustainably
made.

You know, we have zero plastic
in our supply chain.

We're made with organic
ingredients.

You know, we don't use
artificial sweeteners like kind

of all those things that, you
know, that type of consumer is

looking for.
We try to deliver on.

And we do it through a community
of people that really believe in

that, that are musicians, rock
stars, you know, elite athletes,

these kind of people that, you
know, live a lifestyle that is

very much about when you when
you want to have a drink, you

want to have something that is
made out of better ingredients

because you know, you are on the
road for, you know, 300 days a

year touring or you are pro
surfer that can't afford to wake

up feeling terrible in the
morning.

We definitely look at it like at
a, you know, what does

mindfulness mean through
products, but also the community

of people that are backing it
now that's what make maker is,

you know, to a retailer, right.
They're looking for.

OK what's the insight behind it?
Well, we're about bringing

moderation, mindfulness and
better for you together in this

new, you know, category of
alcohol, which is relatively

new.
I think better for you in

alcohol is like really quite a
new kind of tension point, as

well as like a community of
people that believe in it, that

have scale and have an audience
right, that they can push it to.

Now if I was to pitch this to a
consumer, it'd be a very

different pitch.
You know, if I was sampling

session or meeting people in a
bar, I would sort of say that,

you know, our beverage is all
about focusing on real fruit and

flavor.
You know, we want to give people

an option that is not an
artificially tasting product

that has, you know, real fruit
and organic ingredients in it.

And, you know, you can kind of
taste the difference when you

do.
You know, we kind of laugh like

if you do a Pepsi challenge,
right?

You remember there would used to
be those Pepsi challenges where

people would try both and you'd
it'd be a blind tasting.

It comes down to that, you know,
that's where we have a lot of

the success.
When we have two seconds with

people, we just go taste the
difference and you know, tell us

if you like something that is
made with real ingredients, that

has that real profile or
something that you know has been

more of an artificial taste to
it.

So, you know, and then once they
discover that and they go, wow,

it's great, then you can have
the opportunity to kind of tell

them a little bit more about the
brand.

And do you pitch to people like
talking about consumers and and

it's very interesting like this
steak, like the kind of like the

boardroom versus the consumer
desk pitch not.

And, you know, are these people
that are, you know, already

looking for kombucha or for a
hard kombucha and they're

switching toolmate maker?
Or are they people that are

actually, like, not knowing
kombucha at all and you know

they're switching from a totally
different category, for example?

I think there's probably a bit
of both.

Like hard kombucha is not a
national product yet at all.

So we definitely sort of see
like people that might be

drinking Celsius or drinking
something other than beer or

their traditional choices.
Like I think it all comes down

to experimentation, trying
something new and being curious

whether they have tried hard
kombucha before or if they drink

Celsius or if they drink
something else.

Like everyone.
Kind of in this mindset of like

I'm looking for something
different, whether they have

tried kombucha or they haven't
tried kombucha.

There's a mix of both of those
people.

But I think they're all
definitely on the same page in

terms of looking for a different
choice, looking for something

new and looking for something
that's like flavor first.

For sure we don't try to, you
know, talk the normal hard

kombucha language.
You know, I think it gets quite

confusing for people.
I think, you know, people's eyes

glaze over when you start
talking about all the science

behind it and all that, You
know, technical stuff.

Like at the end of the day, you
know, it's just a bit of

beverage that tastes great.
You know, it's refreshing, it's

fruitful.
It it doesn't kind of leave you

bloated or feeling you know,
like lethargic like some other,

you know, kind of products
might.

And where does it start from?
I'm trying to think because one

of the things that I'm talking
about lately in the podcast is

like something that I call the
the, the brand ring roads.

I'm from Rome and of course,
like all all rosary leads to

Rome and I was born with these
things.

Now with all the names of these
ancient roads that you know, you

can say can entered the city
with and I and I see the same

way with consumers.
Like you know when you want to

get to a consumer, but you know
you may take different routes

now because the important is
that the ring Rd. is actually

connecting all the those roads.
But at the same time you have a

big chunk of roads that can get
you into the city of this

traffic.
Now you want to get to the city

but don't know exactly which Rd.
you're taking from.

And now listening to you,
there's, you know there is the

Kombucha aspect, there's the the
ABV aspect, there is the roots

aspect.
There are like different kind of

elements that you can play with
depending on who you're talking

to and what they're looking for
now.

And but let's say is there like
in in your experience like is

there one particular that you
kind of like, I don't want to

say like you push but you know
that you focus on in terms of an

occasion or like a type of need
of people that you see that

resonates mostly with you know
mate maker or or is it like a it

really depends on who you're
talking to and what they're

looking for.
There's probably a lot of ways

to answer that question, Chris.
You know, like I I think

probably the biggest things that
I think we've learned and that

stand out to you know our
business but also probably just

from like my background in terms
of you know other bigger FMCG

businesses.
He's like there's two things

that we, you know try to talk
about.

One is occasion.
So you know like when are people

drinking your product And I know
you're a big believer in

occasion LED thinking like I'm
definitely on the side of

marketing your product in a
specific occasion that people

can instantly connect to.
Because when people are going

into store and shopping, I think
they're normally shopping for an

occasion in mind.
We try to kind of really focus

on being like the first or
second drink of the evening.

You know like where beer
traditionally has like really

done a great job.
Because I think that once people

kind of get in the mindset of
you know the first beverage that

you kind of got them for the
first couple and then they

always generally kind of switch
to you know whether it's

spirits, cocktails, maybe wine.
I think our products kind of

have definitely like a focus on
earlier in the occasion and

being like the first or second
drink of the evening that like

resonates all the way down into
your marketing, your flavour

development.
Like in terms of everything that

you do, you know, like for your
first beverage you want to be

really kind of connecting to
that.

Like we call it the golden hour
occasion.

You know, like that sunset,
having your first drink,

connecting with your mates and
you know, maybe you don't have

drinks after that, you know,
that's totally cool as well.

But like, you know, when you
start thinking about tequila or

vodka or spirits, right?
Spirits has always traditionally

been like a beverage that I
suppose has been, you know,

pushing into like the later end
of the drinking occasion.

And the big job that spirits has
always been doing for like the

last 10 or 15 years is like how
do we get consumption earlier in

the occasion, right?
Because once people get onto

spirits, it's probably more
likely that they won't change

off spirits once they kind of
start drinking cocktails or or

whatever.
So earlier in the evening,

earlier in the occasion creates
the behavior.

It gets people in a more, you
know, flavor forward mindset

where the palette's fresh and
they're looking to try, you

know, like different flavors and
stuff.

And I think that's definitely
where we want to focus.

I also think it connects to, you
know, our brand a little bit

better as well.
You know, like our brand is not

about excess.
It's not about, you know, people

aren't going to be drinking like
6 or 10.

You know, hot kombuchas that's
normally like you have a couple

and then, you know, you kind of
trade into something else.

So for us, it's like we really
just want to, you know, own and

win that first drink of the day
occasion, that golden hour

moment.
And then it's cool, you know, if

people want to kind of shift out
into something else.

I kind of look at starting at
the occasion Chris, I think

that's probably yeah, you know
the the thing that we've done

the most of it means it's
informed the most decisions that

we've made and that kind of gets
you really focused on like where

you need to win.
I like to hear that.

Yeah.
Yeah, that's, that's, that's

fantastic.
And how does the occasion then

for you translate into where to
go?

Because listening to you, I was
picturing and being a little bit

jealous about, you know, West
Coast, kind of like beaches with

surfers and the golden hour and
the sunset and then you open a

can.
And that's the thing.

It's like, I think, you know,
people see themselves in these

occasions that alcohol plays a
role in being able to create

that moment before you even get
into store.

You know what you're shopping
for, You know what you're

looking for.
But you know, you also have a,

you know, quite a strong
connection to like where you

think alcohol fits.
When I look at occasion LED

marketing through the lens of
what accounts we want to show up

in, but you can get really,
really clear on like what type

of accounts you think are going
to work for your brand.

So exactly.
You know, higher volume

typically daytime afternoon, you
know kind of accounts the, you

know, the the best place to
build a brand in because people

not, you know, remembering that
first drink of the evening, you

know, they're kind of connecting
to the flavors a little bit

deeper.
Whereas you know, we wouldn't

typically be focusing on like
late night nightclubs, you know,

whereas that might be like an
occasion that champagne or

tequila does like really really
well in, you know, bottle

service is huge in nightclubs.
That doesn't really play a role

for us in our occasion.
But like thinking back to my old

spirit days, you know, like that
was a huge moment for us to own.

So, you know, I think, I think
occasion LED marketing or just

even having the occasion in mind
can not only influence your

product, but it also like really
tactically drives where you want

to be focused on from an account
level.

And especially when you're a new
brand, you know, you can't be

everywhere, you know, all at
once and you can't be everything

to everyone.
Absolutely.

You know, being like solely
focused on like OK, when are

people drinking this, What are
the occasions that we want to

own and what are the accounts
that fit within that occasion?

Yeah, probably.
Like the thing that we've done

that is definitely worked in our
favor, being a small team and

being a startup average brand,
like kind of want to know

exactly where you want to win.
Yeah.

And in fact that that's what I
wanted to get to because like it

how the how does the occasion
inform the commercial strategy

now and understanding where
where to go on you and your bang

on on that one.
And how did you start, like,

because did you start from a
specific city, from a specific

group of accounts, from a chain,
from a state, from, you know,

like tell me like how did you
actually start selling the rent?

It's funny because I think a lot
of founders or a lot of people

that are building a business
look at this differently.

It can be really easy to look at
the opportunity behind chains,

you know, or national retailers
straight out of the gate as like

you know, the golden goose or
the thing that is going to

really significantly, you know,
shift your business straight

away.
I think chain retailers or

national account retailers,
whatever you want to sort of

say, right, like they play a
huge role in brands.

But I think that identifying
when to go into those chains is

critical, right?
Going straight you know into

some of those bigger retailers
and getting, you know, national

distribution straight, you know
within the first few months of

launching a brand can actually
be you know, harmful for a

business and can actually be the
wrong thing for a business

because you know we sort of say
like you can get distribution

really quickly but you can also
lose it very, very quickly.

And if you don't perform and if
you don't drive like really good

velocity with those retailers,
the likelihood of you you know,

not getting back into them is,
is really high.

So I think having like a
tempered approach to building

your route to market or building
your customer segments is the

right way to do it.
But it's also really hard to do

it as a founder like you know
you want to build that fast

growth plan, you know and be
able to sort of go back to your

partners and sort of say you
know guys, girls, we got this

many points of distribution
straight away.

It's kind of like very tempting
to do it.

But you know the the challenge
with that is like you can, you

know, you gain it really quickly
but you can lose it really,

really quickly too.
And if you haven't back to that,

you know, brand awareness and
that community piece like if you

haven't built that before or you
start to like scale up and you

just show up as like another
product on the shelf, you know?

Absolutely.
It could be really detrimental

like you can kind of probably
hear where I'm going with this.

Like I think for you know my
point of view on it Chris, is

like on premises where brands
are built.

There's a reason why, you know,
the on premise has always been a

huge focus for businesses at
multinational companies.

Like you know that we used to
work at the on premise was, you

know, a smaller percentage of
your business but a much larger

piece of your mind share.
Because you knew that winning in

the on premise was key to
building that behavior.

Building a a brand with, you
know, the bartenders are happy

to represent or that people when
they go to, you know, a bar,

look at the menu and realize
that you know you're on there

and you stand out Like that is
creating the behavior and

creating this community that you
know eventually once you start

to show up in your local liquor
store, you know amongst you

know, 100 other products that
are, you know, very similar.

I think that's how you're going
to start to stand out.

So it's hard, you know, it's
tempting to go and be everywhere

straight out of the gate.
Long term building in the on

premises probably the way to go.
Yeah, you know I'm a big fan of

the on trade, but I've actually
even let's say evolved my

thinking in the last episodes of
the of the podcast as well

because I I coined the new term,
if you allow me that I called it

the the bottom up trade.
You know because there is there

is an element that you know on
and off trade could be very

important at the same time when
it comes to for example

independence store or whatever.
What I what I say is that

whenever you can have a
conversation or there is someone

between the shelf or the can or
the keg and the person.

So when there is likes that
there could be some storytelling

happening in between.
So there is a, there is an

intermediary in front of a
shelf.

Then that's the bottom of trade
because you can actually ignite

the conversation.
You can talk about the brand

when it starts to be very
mechanical and very much like,

OK, I I see a line on the menu
and I ordered that to a waiter

or a waitress that doesn't
really care what they're

selling.
Or at the same time in a

supermarket chain when there is
just a shelf and you know there

is a price promotion and you
know just like a price tag then

yeah you know so, so and and on
this one I I've learned that in

in the US that is also quite
important when it comes to

independent stores in the off
trade as well where the, the,

the conversation of the the the
shop owner of the shop manager

is actually as important as a
conversation you may have with

the bar manager. 100%, yeah.
And and let me just clarify, I

don't think it's the on trade in
exclusion to everything else.

It's like what are the right
accounts that can kind of I

suppose talk to those consumers
that are looking to kind of

purchase, you know, the types of
products that we're after.

So you know, back to the
occasional LED stuff, right?

If there's like an independent
retailer that is, you know, by

the beach in a neighborhood that
has a high consumption rate for

Heart, Kombucha or whatever
product you're creating, like

that's a gold mine.
That retailer is going to be

believing in your product as
much as maybe a bartender at a

beach bar Today.
You've got like so many more

channels that you're able to
read people in like your

traditional, you know, Target,
you know, chain kind of retailer

and then you know your
traditional dive bar.

You know you've got music
festivals, you've got events,

you've got sporting events.
We've got all sorts of things

now being able to kind of
connect with people in you know

the right occasion and how to
retailers deliver on that I

think is like the place to
start.

And now if you even look at you
know the the off premise

universe and the chain universe,
there's like special stores.

You know like there's chains
that are solely focused on

organic ingredients.
You know there's independent

craft beer retailers that you
can go to for like the best

local craft beers.
So it's definitely becoming much

more specialized which I I think
is like actually a really good

thing for you know smaller
beverage brands and to start up

beverage brands because you can
kind of identify where do you

fit, where's the product fit and
treat them as your as like your

ambassadors of your product.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And you mentioned earlier, you
know, like some of the points in

which you know of course being a
small brand with a small team

starting to sell, you know, like
I'm always talking about the the

importance of winning in in your
home turf now before venturing

elsewhere.
So where, where did you start

and where what you gonna see
there being your home turf, if

you may?
Our stories are, you know, a

little bit different to maybe
some other ones where you know

you started in like 1 kind of
footprint and then you know

slowly kind of bulb out.
You know we've our strategies

kind of very much shifted within
the first 12 months of us since

we launched and and you know
that's cool.

You have a business plan and A
and and A and a point of view on

where you think you're going to
win and being able to adapt to

that and kind of change, you
know, as the market's telling

you certain things, I think is
like really important.

But we we launched in Australia
first.

So you know we were kind of
focused on like bringing these

like new innovative products
that I was mentioning before to

the Aussie market for the first
time.

We thought that the similarities
between Australians and people

in America looking for you know
better few options that those

parallels are really quite
similar.

Yeah, it's coastal people like
to have a drink, have a good

time.
You know, we're looking to try

new things outside of beer and
wine.

Our business plan was like let's
be first in, you know in in in

Australia and learning from some
of the products that are really

working well in California.
I think we did a really good job

of executing in kind of like
those coastal areas that we felt

like that product and that
occasion was going to work with

consumers.
Where it all kind of started to

change for us was I came back to
California to get married to my

wife.
So my my wife, you know, was

living over in California while
I was getting things set up in

Australia and she was going to
join me later on down the track.

But you know, we came to get
married down in Mexico and had a

couple business meetings while I
was here getting ready to get

married.
And you know, a huge opportunity

kind of opened up with us to
launch in California with

probably one of the best
distributors in Southern

California.
And you know, I'm kind of two

weeks away from getting married.
I was not in the frame of mind

of, you know, launching another
market, let alone on the other

side of the world at that point.
But we, it was definitely in the

back of my mind and I think
then, you know, me and my wife,

we went and got married, had a
great time.

And then you know, the kind of
two days after the wedding we

sort of sat down and said OK,
well where are we going to move

to?
Are we going back to Australia?

Are we going to Melbourne you
know to kind of oversee this or

do we want to stay here and
really give the USA crack.

We kind of looked at it as like
US was always something that was

in the back of our minds as
eventually one day you know we

want to go back to a market
where you know it's got a lot of

scale behind it and where a lot
of these products are proven.

You know and I think that's
where our business strategy

started is you know these
products are proven in America,

let's bring them to another
market as like a first mover.

I think momentum and timing is
everything when you're launching

a new product.
And we definitely had I think

really good timing.
We had really good engagement

with you know the distributor
was coming into summer.

So yeah, we made the call to
stay and launch mate maker or

our product is like a test
market in San Diego.

So you know this is coming back
to like your question where it's

like where's your home turf?
Well, our home turf was

Australia when we initially kind
of launched it.

But you know when we tested it
in San Diego, the feedback and

the response was like
overwhelming.

People knew what this product
was.

I think you know hard Kombucha
and really I'd say the craft

movement in Beveridge, you know
San Diego is probably you know

where a lot of these new
emerging brands start and thrive

from.
So you know we kind of looked at

it.
If we can make it in San Diego,

you know we can make it
anywhere.

This is probably the best market
to test our product in America

because there's such a huge
grassroots movement behind craft

beverages in the city now.
Definitely kind of, you know, 6

to 12 months into this journey,
not only has it kind of pivoted

incredibly quickly, our home
turf is kind of changing.

You know our home turf now is
not the country that you know we

initially planned and are going
out to when you know we were

doing all those pitches in the
first, you know kind of early

days.
But it was now just following

the momentum and following the
demands where we know that these

products work, where we know
that we had the engagement from

the distributors.
I think like the biggest

learning for us is identifying
like that that market that you

launch in at the start for sure
you, you know you might have a

point of view on where you think
it's going to work.

But being able to kind of pivot
really, really quickly and

follow where you feel like you
know that product or that

consumer or that occasion is
kind of really working is like

really important.
Honestly, I love it because it's

what you know, building bottom
up is all about.

You know like it's really like
understanding.

You know it's not about, you
know it's just like OK take a

side the PowerPoint presentation
and the investor decks.

And then all of a sudden if you
see that there is an opportunity

somewhere as long as you know it
still fits the the essence of

the brand.
You know because here is not

about you know launching with
the chain that is going to

promote it and sell it cheap and
stuck it high kind of you know

kind of thing.
It's like it's still doing

something that you would have
done in a secondary moment.

You know doing it in in a in a
primary moment and and listening

to you I mean you were in a way
lucky in the sense that Hard

Kombucha doesn't really have a
such a provenance in in the mind

of consumer Now it's not like
country related you know it's

not like I don't know like a
Scotch for Scotland now but that

you're launching anything in a
matter in Australia or in

California now it's it's it's
different in that sense and that

was the the good thing about
being able to enable that pivot

on and and that's which in the
strategy you know and in the end

it's a bit like an adopted
child.

Now it's like all of a sudden
it's like, OK, you've got new

parents, it's California, is is
your.

And you know what?
That that it, it's funny, right?

Because if you had of asked me
that question like 12 months

ago, you would have got a very
different answer.

Because you know being like
focused and and really

methodical in terms of where you
show up and and how you go

through a launch phase is I
think something that is very

typically like driven into
people like myself that come

from big business and come from
FMCG companies and come from

those like drinks giants.
You're planning a launch 12 to

18 months before it actually
happens and then to completely

pivot on not only the city, the
state, but like the country that

you're launching in is like it,
you know it, it's not the normal

startup story, right.
And it's not the normal like

beverage kind of story where
it's like focus on like one

very, very small footprint and
then you build out from there.

We actually, I almost look at it
as like a relaunch really as our

as our product.
You know, we launched it in

Australia, kind of did a really
good job of like getting it to

scale and we're slowly being
part of like building that

category out.
But you know, we relaunched our

business in San Diego and that's
probably now the rebase of the

star really.
You know, there's so many

amazing brands from San Diego
that have kind of walked that

path before that have gone on to
do really great things and and I

think gone on to build like
really loyal audiences.

So it's got the foundations of
building, you know, a great

product and a great brand.
But it's just funny how we got

there.
We got there a little bit into

some other brands.
And it's also interesting

because you went from, you know,
like a country in which you

wanted to be the first mover to
a state where you're actually,

you know, one of the most
crowded places for hard kombucha

in the world.
The most crowded, yeah.

But that's a very important
lesson, I guess about, you know,

distinctiveness,
differentiation.

It's not enough to be the first
one because sometimes like when

I'm talking to people they're
kind of like the pitch that they

give me is very much like
working only if you're the first

mover.
But then all of a sudden when

you've got you know of course if
you're if you're fighting the

big guys you are the new the
small kids you know in the the

new kid block kind of thing now.
But then if there's a

kindergarten of kids and then
all of a sudden you know how how

do you differentiate yourself
know.

And that is the and that is the
that is that is the challenge

and so, so now you would say
that I mean San Diego is your,

it's your home Sir.
Yeah, definitely for the brand.

But like, let me just be clear,
like being an Australian, you

know, my home turf is definitely
Australia.

I can't claim San Diego is my my
home turf.

It's definitely the home turf of
our brand and our brewery and

you know where we where we base
ourselves.

But we're an Australian proud
business for sure.

Fantastic, fantastic.
And tell me like, So what?

How do you see moving like being
conscious of the resources and

the limited of you know people
money availability that you may

have without going into the
details but like you know it's

it's still a small brand and and
what's the important of focusing

on for example like on San Diego
or or actually getting lured by

going OK let's also go LA, let's
go so do like Santa Monica let's

so you know let's widen all this
kind of like beach focus on the

occasion fits.
What's the time frame for

actually understanding.
OK actually I I've, I think I'm

in a good stage in San Diego and
now I want to go to the next

city or it's actually like OK
let's let's go.

You know it doesn't matter like
it's South you know Southern

California.
Southern California.

I don't.
I don't mind if it's San Diego

or LA No, I still, you know,
want to grasp opportunities in

all this kind of like cities.
You know what it it's I think it

just comes down to momentum, you
know and no matter what stage

you're really at as a business,
I think building momentum and

driving momentum is a pretty
incredible thing and it's and it

kind of feels like when you're
building it, it's there's no

stopping it.
You know, everything just kind

of kind of fits into place and
works.

I think the reason I sort of say
that is I think once you, you

know, start building momentum
off of a smaller footprint, then

the conversation on expanding is
a very different one.

You know, you've got retailers
that are coming to you wanting

to launch your products.
You've got distributors that are

wanting to, you know, partner
with you to kind of open up new

markets.
You could even say that you've

got investors coming to you, you
know, wanting to be part of the

story to help you kind of build
out.

We always kind of try to think
about the pull rather than push

creating that demand that you
know drives that momentum and

that gets customers, the
distributors, the consumers all

really wanting your product
before it's even there.

That is like the dream scenario,
you know, like that if you can

have everything kind of you know
pulling in that direction before

you ever launch it in that
market, you're in a really,

really kind of good position.
So I think it just comes down to

at what point do you open it up,
you know, at what point do you

kind of follow through on on on
that demand generation and that

pull for you know kind of
consumers.

Then that starts to come down to
the seasonality, focus and all

those sorts of things.
So yeah, I'm very much like in

the camp thought like I think
demand generation is really

important.
When you think about momentum,

like I think momentum is
probably the most important

thing for a small business at
our stage is you know, having

all of those things kind of
stacked up so that when you do

switch it on, you're able to
continue that momentum rather

than you know stop.
That's all for today.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode, 52 and 53.

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