093 | Sophie Cookson | Cracking Distribution, Bottom-Up in Dubai and The Gulf with Craft & Culture UAE

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, host Chris Maffeo is joined by Sophie Cookson, a seasoned expert in the liquor industry with over a decade of experience in Dubai and the UAE.

Sophie shares insights on the evolving liquor landscape in the Middle East, discusses the challenges and opportunities for small and medium-sized brands in the region, and the importance of having a regional strategy.

The conversation also touches on the role of Dubai duty-free as a significant channel for marketing and brand building. Sophie emphasizes the need for brands to have local presence and support to thrive in the Middle East market.

Tune in to learn about the unique dynamics of the Gulf region’s liquor market and how brands can successfully navigate this complex but rewarding environment.

Key Highlights:

• Navigating the evolving liquor landscape in the Middle East

• Strategic insights for small and medium-sized brands entering the market

• The unique role of Dubai duty-free in brand building

• Essential strategies for establishing local presence and support

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction and Welcome

00:30 - Guest Introduction: Sophie Cookson

01:07 - The Liquor Industry in Dubai

02:41 - Challenges and Opportunities for Small Brands

04:24 - Legalities and Regulations in the UAE

07:39 - Brand Building Strategies

10:56 - The Role of Expats and Duty-Free

15:10 - Supporting Bartenders and Craft Brands

26:25 - Travel Retail Opportunities

35:36 - Conclusion and Contact Information

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Sophie Cookson

Co-founder | Craft & Culture UAE

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Hey drinks builder, this is
Chris Mafao, and you're

listening to the Mafao Drinks
Podcast.

Today we are reaching listeners
in over 100 countries and I'm

grateful you're one of them.
Before we dive in, a quick

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Now let's get into today's
conversation.

Hi, Sophie, welcome to podcast.
Thank you so much.

I'm really happy to be here and
be speaking to you today.

It was really nice when I got
your message on Instagram, like

we started to interact and then
we bumped into each other in

Berlin at Barconvent and we
finally managed to meet in

person with you and Kevin.
It was a great honour.

The liquor industry is such a
small space and that's why I

love it so much.
It's such a great community.

So it's awesome going to these
types of conferences because you

you bump into all of your
LinkedIn contacts and it's nice

to put a face to names,
etcetera.

Absolutely.
Let's dive in.

It's going to be a very
interesting conversation because

you're the 1st guest from the
UAE and Dubai in particular.

We're going to dive into the
fantastic world of Dubai.

One year ago exactly.
I was there for Gal Foods.

I was a speaker there and I was
impressed because I had not been

there for 10 years and the city
was, I mean, 10 years for Dubai,

it's basically like 70 years for
a normal city.

I mean, absolutely, wow.
A lot has changed in 10 years.

And actually it's really
interesting you talk about golf

foods because we have the first
ever bar show coming to Dubai.

I'm not sure if you've heard of
it, but in April we have the

golf Bar show.
So not only do we have golf

foods, but we now have the golf
bar show as well, which is a

fast for our region.
So we're super excited for that.

That's fun.
Make sure you come down I.

Will do that.
Tell us a little bit about you

in a short nutshell in what
you're doing now in Dubai.

And to explain a little bit, I
will ask you certain questions

in this episode.
Hi everybody who's tuned in.

I'm Sophie Cookson.
I've been in this region for a

decade.
I'm British.

I spent most of that time
running the Diageo office here.

I guess my skill set is
certainly big liquor businesses

within this region, the Middle
East, more from a commercial

perspective.
But what was really interesting

is that gave me a great
foundation to really have a good

understanding of liquor within
this region, the Gulf.

But it also really helped me to
identify white spaces in the

region and opportunities in the
region.

And what I really see as this
lack of infrastructure to

service small and medium sized
brands.

There's a huge over index on the
big box players, but actually

the small and medium sized
brands which are challenging the

status quo and driving
differentiation and

incrementality into the
category, are really struggling

to access the Reaver region and
thrive as well as well.

So I set up Craft and culture
with my partner to really put a

voice behind small to medium
sized brands, give them a stage

in order to thrive and support
them through an infrastructure

layer in order to access the
region.

That's exactly what I noticed
when I was there.

The big brands are very present
for obvious reasons.

But then there is this craft
scene.

You know, it's needs to have a
bigger voice in it.

Yeah, absolutely.
I actually did a study and I

asked consumers what they
thought of the drinks

experiences within this region.
A lot of people said it is

uninspiring.
The lot of that is because of

the range.
Bartenders don't feel inspires

because they're always using the
same liquor.

There's drinks that they want to
get imported from their

hometowns and they're not able
to access them.

Similarly, consumers are getting
bored of the same big players

and they're looking for new
drinking experiences and new

brands that offer a different
occasion for them.

And it's just harder to get that
versus other more developed

markets such as Europe and the
Americas.

So it's coming and it's going to
be really exciting, but there

needs to be that support layer
in order to help them get here.

So let's clarify for listeners
not familiar with Dubai and

maybe I'll be confused about the
Middle East region, what is

legal in Dubai and the region.
So if you can give a a one

minute wrap up on what you can
do and how spirits play in the

market so we get everybody on
board.

Absolutely.
So there's so much opportunity

in this region.
However, as you just put, it's

pretty complex and you need to
be pretty educated to understand

those complexities.
So, yeah, there's a big theme

around the regularity, but the
strict regulations in this

region.
So some markets are prohibited.

So Saudi Arabia, for example,
Kuwait, they're dry.

You can't drink liquor there.
But also even within countries

where you can drink liquor, such
as the UAE, there are

restrictions.
Venues have to have a license.

So everyone that sells liquor
imports liquor, whether that be

to other distributors or to
consumers, has to have that

license in place.
The good news is a lot of people

think that the whole of the Gulf
is dry and there's no

opportunity here in terms of
liquor, and that's not the case

at all.
Actually, if you have a look at

the data such as IWSR, the
biggest regions in growth over

the next five years are all
coming from the Middle East,

India and Africa.
The more mature markets are

pretty stagnant.
So it's super important that

brands are seeing this region
and taking it seriously because

it's set for double digit growth
versus the more mature markets.

Does that help?
Yes, absolutely.

So basically you can drink in
bars and then you need to have a

special license to buy alcohol
in stores.

If you don't have a license in
the trade, you cannot buy

alcohol in liquor stores.
Yeah, it does depends on the

Emirates.
So if we're speaking

specifically about UAA, all
countries are different as well.

But within the UAA, if you're in
Dubai, if you're a tourist, then

you can actually purchase
alcohol from retail with your

passport.
You don't need a liquor license.

Whereas if you're a resident you
need to get a liquor license to

buy, but it's free of charge and
relatively easy to do that.

It used to be a lot harder, but
the barrier to getting the

license to purchase liquor is a
lot easier now.

Also worth pointing out that
even though liquor is accessible

in the UAE, we are in a dark
market.

So we really need to respect
those cultural sensitivities.

We are in an Islamic country and
because we're in a dark market,

there are certain things related
to marketing and advertising

that we can't do in this region
that we can do elsewhere.

For example, we can't advertise
alcohol and television or on

billboards, etcetera.
But what we can do is we can do

really consumer centric below
the line activations in on trade

outlets and retail.
So there's plenty of marketing

that we can do below the line.
We just have to think more

creatively because we can't do
above the line here.

Let's say the big question, you
and I, you both come from big

corporations, myself in beer
specifically, and you mentioned

the agile.
What is the big difference you

notice now with working with
small brands and setting up your

own business in terms of brand
building?

What are the differences in
building a big major brand and a

craft brand?
Yeah, I do believe having sat on

both sides of the table and not
many people have within liquor

actually, but certainly for big
brands, the barrier to entry or

to thrive here is a lot easier.
Brands that are already here

have established distribution
channels.

They carry favor with
distributors as well because

they're a big share of the
distributors profits.

They have their licensing and
market already.

For example, some of the big
players like Pioneer, Ricard and

Diaz, you already have offices
here.

They've got resource here.
They're really fully equipped to

really thrive in this region.
And of course, they can benefit

from logistics and economies of
scale.

A big challenge here is just
getting liquid into the region.

Bigger brands are obviously able
to do those things a lot better

because they have the right
infrastructure in place in the

region.
And another thing we think about

the customers, they can really
leverage those global

partnerships in Dubai, as you
will know, we have big

restaurants and hospitality
groups that are also in other

parts of the world.
So if a big brands or if a big

supplier has relationships in
other markets, then they can

easily leverage and tap into
those relationships here as

well.
And then secondly, I suppose the

dominance in the on trades
pouring is always going to drive

volume and the bigger brands are
always going to be more likely

to get those pouring deals.
For smaller brands, the

opportunity is huge.
I actually think that the

opportunity is even bigger for
smaller brands because they're

not here yet.
The incremental opportunity is

vast, but but there are a lot
more challenges.

Entering the market is a
challenge.

They don't necessarily have the
established relationships with

the distributor because we are
in a region where there's

monopolies and duopolies within
this region of distributors

usually have more power in terms
of choosing the brands they want

within their portfolio.
Just because you want to be here

doesn't mean you're necessarily
going to get accepted.

Even if you do get accepted,
because you're a smaller brand,

your share of business is
probably lower for the

distributor was a result.
You're going to be less

prioritized.
I think something else I see

with smaller brands is they're
trying to do the job from a home

market.
For example, I work with a lot

of British brands and they're
really trying to build their

brands here from afar, and that
doesn't always work.

In order to thrive here, you
need to be here.

You need feet on the streets,
you need to understand the

market and be educated, and a
lot of brands just don't have

that set up.
Brands really need to tap into

the white space opportunity
that's here.

But there's also more
challenges.

For example, I can help them
guide through those challenges.

That's what I'm here for, and
that's what crafting culture

does.
Yeah, it sounds very familiar.

I think the interesting thing
about Dubai is that it's a local

market, but it's an expat market
now.

So you have people from all over
the world.

It goes back to what I usually
say about winning your home

surf.
You really win at home.

Then you can tap into a lot of
these opportunities because you

will have a lot of expats from
that market go into living in

Dubai.
And I remember for example, when

I was working for SAB Miller,
what we did with Peroni and the

team did a fantastic job and
they also found a fair tale

grounds on the well, lots of
British, lots of Americans, lots

of Australians where Petroni was
already growing and booming.

So all these people found the
availability of the product and,

and it was easy for them to to
basically get that, you know,

not only the converting demand,
but also the sustaining demand

in getting the brand growing and
it really started to fly.

What do you think about this
intersection and feedback loop

of home market, brand in the
home market, expats from that

market living in Dubai, trying
the product, bringing back home.

It's kind of like this feed of
demand that gets automatically

discounts noble effect because
you start to see the brand in

the right places where you go,
and it helps reconfirm that

you've made the right choice in
choosing that brand.

Yeah.
We've talked a lot about to buy

and or something I do want to
mention is the fact that the

brands that thrive in this
region are the ones that have

the regional approach because to
Buy is the luxury hotspot, but

the actual bigger opportunity is
around tapping into the whole

region.
To Buy specifically is very much

an expat market.
We're 88% expats.

I think we have around 200
different nationalities.

When we talk about this feedback
loop and leveraging an expat

population, we can certainly do
this in in Dubai and other expat

areas within the region as well.
So I think that what makes

things quite interesting is
expats, because they're here,

they do.
There is that stronger demand

for global brands and brands
that resonate with them from

their home markets.
But bartenders really yarn for

brands they used to work within
their hometowns or home

countries that they can't get
here.

So there's definitely that
loyalty and emotional connection

with brands that they want to
bring in from their home

markets, which is super
interesting.

I also think what's interesting
is the fact that we have a big

duty free network here.
So not only are we tapping into

expats that potentially live in
the UAE, but also there's so

much opportunity to tap into
different nationalities through

duty free.
We have the number one largest

airport for duty free, doorstep
to buy duty free.

As a result, we have the
opportunity to be exposed to

lots of different nationalities
because we're such an expat

country and Dubai specifically
as a luxury city hotspot.

What you find and what is really
interesting is the consumer

journey itself.
So a lot of these people we're

talking about will live in
London and spend their summers

in Mykonos and Ibiza and then
they'll spend their winters in

Dubai.
So actually a lot of the high

net worths, and we do over index
on high net worths, they don't

just stay in one place.
They're international citizens

and they're experiencing brands
in different places across the

year.
In particular for luxury brands.

My advice would be it's so
important to have as a luxury

city spot approach whereby the
people that are seeing and

experiencing your brands are
experiencing it not just in one

location, but in those key
luxury hotspot locations around

the globe.
I think that's a really

important strategy and Dubai
obviously sits within that

strategy.
You mentioned quite a few things

there.
The first thing that is very

interesting is what you
mentioned about bartenders.

Now that they want to have
brands that they used to work

with or they are familiar or
that they like working with for

certain recipes, Can they do
that through you, for example,

through craft and culture?
Do do they enable that kind of

connection with you in asking I
need to have even smaller

quantities maybe like they don't
want to import, yeah.

That's a really good question.
So we as craft and culture, a

big pillar for us is community
around bartenders.

It's really important for us to
have great relationships with

the distributors, but we ensure
that we build those connections

with bartenders as well, and
we're looking after them and

supporting them.
There's an amazing bartender

community here and it's really
importance that they have the

tools they need to do that jobs
properly as well.

So actually we do to speak to
bartenders a lot around special

imports.
So a lot of times they come to

us and they say, oh, I really
want to get hold of this

product.
And we have helped bartenders

access them and then worked with
the distributors in order to

create the roots market in order
to get the liquor to the

bartenders.
So that's absolutely something

that we can do.
And I think that's a little bit

different to the with our model
is we don't work on Moqs.

So because we're delivering to
distributors locally.

So unlike if you're shipping
from afar where you might have

to benefit from economies of
scale and send containers in, as

in we tend to work on small
batch, which serves those

special imports going to
specific bartenders in smaller

quantities.
So yeah, in summary, we do.

We love to do that because that
excites the bartender and also

at the same time we're
supporting with the community as

well.
I love that because this is like

really building on one of my
topics that are very dear to to

my heart, which is really this
feedback loop and directly into

the game that digital is playing
nowadays.

Because the bartender may follow
a brand and a brand can connect

directly to a bartender and so
on.

And then if they see that there
is already a fertile ground

because there's already like a
two or three or four bars that

are interesting to the product,
instead of just picking Dubai or

UAE or any other Gulf region
country as a export strategy, it

becomes more of a pool strategy
because you start to see, OK,

actually I've got already a few
bars where I can export my

product and they are already
willing to use it in the range,

which is a very different way
than deciding from a desk in

London, like I want to go to
Dubai, I want to go to the UAE,

fingers crossed, and I'll send
some boxes there and then

someone will make my product
move.

And this is connected to what
you were saying before about

boots on the ground, having
resources, having a structure in

place and knowing that either
you have somebody, either it's

you, you need to have that
allocation of resources.

It can be your time and then
it's free in in quotes or or you

need to allow a person to do
that for you.

And you have to allocate that
budget to make that happen.

Yeah.
I think it's really interesting.

And just in terms of what you
said, I think where a lot of

suppliers or brands coming in
make mistakes is that they think

that they're going to be able to
push stock in with the

distributor and then the brands
will sell itself.

And usually, yes, we do get that
amazing benefit because if the

brand is proven in its home
market, there's definitely a

bigger chance that it's going to
be successful in the UAE, but

not always.
The brand still needs to put

resource here to thrive and be
successful.

And I think a lot of brands
think, OK, I've got the brand

into the distributor, the rest
will follow.

The sales will come in.
And that that isn't the case.

I think that if you're serious
about entering this region, then

it's a costly region to play in,
but it reaps rewards.

And if you are going to answer,
then it's really important that

you take it seriously and you do
have a strategy in order to

create that pull through.
And a big part of that is

ensuring that you have feet on
the street to support with

selling into the on trades,
building local plans, of course.

And I would say any brand that's
coming here really needs to have

a think about how they're going
to create that pull through.

And, and this is a, a typical
issue with most of the markets

to be honest and most of brands
I, I call it the paradox of the

PowerPoint presentation.
We are in 23 markets already.

Maybe you send a few boxes into
23 markets, but how many of

those 23 markets have reordered
and how many do anything for you

where you managed to create the
demand upfront?

So that actually there is people
that want to work with you when

you're not just putting it down
their their their throats.

So, so to say.
I think people, even if there's

appetite to find salespeople
within region or local

marketers, etcetera, I think
sometimes even if there's

appetite, it's actually still
quite challenging to tap into

the talents here.
And there's so much talents, but

if you're not here, you don't
necessarily know where to look.

So what we try to do in terms of
our support layer to our brands

is to try and match, make them
with salespeople on the ground.

So they're equipped with
warehouse stocks, so they're

equipped with licenses to
imports, warehousing to store

their products, so they can then
access the whole region, but

also salespeople as well.
So when their product is here

and when they are selling to
distributors, they have that

pull through as well.
So what we do, we can give those

brands the tools in order to
succeed here.

But it's really important the
amount of brands I see that are

brilliant, amazing brands, but
they fail just because they've

done all the hard work they've
negotiated, created to get the

brands into the distributor and
then they think the work is done

and actually the work's only
just begun at that point.

So yeah, a lot of brands get
listed because they become a

tail skew or a slow moving
obsolete product.

And it's just because that that
hard work wasn't put into the

drive the pull through with the
trade.

Yeah.
Going back to what we were

discussing before, I mean, if we
take Dubai as a deep dive in

what we're discussing is the
fact that there is this demand

element from both a trade
perspective for bartenders and

bar managers and consumers.
Because if you have built your

brand already sustainably in
your market, then all these

people coming to Dubai or to any
other those luxury destinations

of the region, when they will
see the brands in the right

places, then they will actually
get familiar and and order it

right away.
And same thing with bartenders,

like you know all the bartenders
working in the region are coming

from Europe or US or Australia.
They have been working with

certain brands and there is this
element that very often brand

underestimate on the success of
certain categories and certain

brands.
To give an example, like the

Italian bartender community in
London that played huge role in

brands like Peroni and Aperol
and Campari and Mario Montenegro

and the Fernet brand, you know,
all these brands that they were

familiar with from Italy, you
know.

And then if you take the Mexican
restaurants and all the wave of

agave connected to the Mexican
food, the rise of restaurants

and so on.
So very often these kind of like

ethnic elements plays such a big
role that is just kind of

staying below that the water
surface.

So you don't really see it and
you see it as a OK, like brands

are booming for random reason
because it was good marketing,

but actually there's the fertile
ground below that enables that

communication and that
connection between bartenders,

consumers and brand owners that
have done the right moves in the

respective, you know, starting
market and landing market.

Yeah, absolutely.
And there's so many white spaces

here.
You talked about tequila and

obviously we know that there's a
huge tequila boom everywhere,

and the tequila boom's very much
here as well, by the way.

But there's certain because
we're a little bit more behind

and we're less progressive here
within liquor than other

markets.
There's whole categories that

are missing.
There's a lot of white spaces.

So for example, I've actually
been working with some of the

big distributors here on a ready
to drink category strategy

because you go back to Europe
and you see these amazing

premium RTDS.
You look at the data and RTD is

actually the biggest growth in
terms of value and volume.

Most categories are in value
growth because of inflation, but

not many are in volume growth,
but RTD is.

But here there's a severe under
index.

So a big piece of my work
actually this year has been

around ready to drink and how we
can ensure that we not that we

need to over index necessarily,
but get for it to get its fair

share of the category.
So that's been super

interesting.
So yeah, that's just an example

of how opportunities here are
huge and there's lots of them to

capitalize on if you're a brand.
Yeah, that's fantastic.

And and another point that you
were mentioning before was the

role of duty free now, so the
Dubai duty free, which is like a

huge space for whoever has
happened to to fly through Dubai

airport.
So the interesting thing is that

when I see Dubai as a luxury,
Dubai, Abu Dhabi and other

cities in the region, they are
almost like playing a role of

what Duty Free does globally
now.

And it's a hub where everybody
has been flying through it or

had a few days in Dubai or Abu
Dhabi.

Like what you were saying
before.

Dubai within itself is already
playing a huge role of a

shopping window for lots of
brands, for lots of different

type of consumer.
You mentioned like 200

nationalities living there, but
then within that the duty free

is even bigger because there's
even people flying through Dubai

that don't necessarily stop in
Dubai.

So what is the role that space
can play in the brand building

efforts of all these brands?
Because usually you get all

these huge big flagship brands
in this region, but then

sometimes consumers, they also
want to find smaller craft

brands and they want to try new
different things.

So what is the role it plays in
building the brand for them?

Yeah, really good question.
Travel retail is quite close to

my heart.
I spent quite a lot of my career

at Diageo working with travel
retail.

And first of all, I think any
brands should really have a

multi channel strategy when it
comes to, you know the off

trade, the on trade travel
retail.

And I think that's something
that can very easily be executed

here because of the fact that
all of this huge synergies

between each channel here
probably more than other

markets.
And we can go on to why, but

firstly, we do over and Zacks on
big travel retail operators in

this region.
So Dubai Duty Free is the number

one standalone operator within
an airport in the world or it

certainly was for brands I've
worked on in the past.

We have Delhi Duty Free as well
in India, which again is

certainly a top five and we have
Doha too.

So and what's what's interesting
about Doha and Dubai is to your

point, they don't just serve
travellers coming into the

region, they serve transit
passengers as well.

And they really do connect the
East with the West.

So DDF actually accessed
87,000,000 passengers in 2023.

It's a huge opportunity to get
in front of a large audience and

your own target consumer, but
also potentially other groups as

well that you might not have
potentially thought of.

And I think what's quite
interesting going back to the,

what I say about the synergy is
that we haven't spoken about it,

but actually something that's
quite complex about the UAE is

people education around the
taxation in this region.

So we're quite a highly taxed
region for liquor.

So for example, in Dubai,
there's a 50% import tax,

there's a 30% municipality tax
as well and then a 5% VAT.

So as a result of that, what it
means is if a consumer is

purchasing a product in retail
or in the on trade and to buy

that they might be able to
access in the UK, the likelihood

is it's going to be a lot more
expensive here just because of

the value chain.
But the special thing about to

buy duty free and the travel
retail operators is can

obviously benefit from
purchasing products without the

tax.
So yes, the margins are pretty

high from the duty free
operators, but it's still more

value added to buy from travel
retail than it is in the

domestic market where the
taxation is high.

So the synergy is that the
arrivals outlets actually act as

an extension of the domestic
market, OK?

So what you find is tourists and
expats will ensure that they

maximize their four litre liquor
allowance as they come into the

region because they're
technically accessing amazing

brands that are trusted.
Because that's the other thing

about travel retail,
particularly in India and

Africa, travel retail, the
brands are legitimate, they're

authentic.
So people will maximize that

travel, that liquor allowance
before they come into the

region.
So essentially it's like an

extension of the domestic
market.

I always think that's really
interesting.

And actually in the past, I have
done commercial promotions and

marketing to try and combine
both duty free and domestic.

You're really tapping into that
path to purchase of the consumer

as they travel through the
airport and then go to their

hotel or back to their houses.
This is something that is also

not so common in in all
airports, but so you basically

can buy also on arrival GT3,
which doesn't really happen in

many other countries which.
Is yeah, definitely.

And I think that the four liquor
allowance versus other countries

is quite high.
People can really maximize that.

And just something else that you
mentioned around building brands

and and GT free being a shop
window.

Absolutely, I think that it's,
it can be difficult not just

actually in UAE, but in other
markets.

We don't always do a great job
in the domestic market of

building brands in retail.
But actually what's amazing

about the domestic market, the
duty free is there's a real

opportunity to really have huge
marketing activities within the

airport sampling as well.
So we're not allowed to sample

in the domestic market, but
that's something that we can do

in travel retail in Sutton
outlets anyway.

So I certainly think that
there's a really big opportunity

to engage the shopper,
especially as that they've got

that dwell time waiting for
their next flight.

It's a really, it's a really big
opportunity to capture them and

drive more of an engagement at
the point of purchase as opposed

to in in domestic retail.
What what you're saying is very

interesting Sophie, because it
makes me think the strategic

role that plays, it's connected
to some of the things that I

mentioned about the what I call
the bottom up trade now that I

don't call any more the on and
off and all the channels, but I

call it bottom up trade and top
down trade.

So in the bottom up trade is
basically what you can build,

where you can build and where
you can tell a story about your

brand.
So whether it's a liquor store

and on trade out like a relevant
on trade outlet or a duty free

space where you can actually
have a conversation and talk

through consumer.
So what is the appetite from

players like Dubai Duty Free for
example, or like other big

players in Doha or Delhi you
mentioned for smaller brands?

Do they want to play only with
the big players or are they

starting to change their mind
and and actually working with

smaller brands?
Yeah, it's an interesting point.

I mean, the big brands are
always going to support the big

operators to build their
category strategies.

And you know, obviously they're
the cash cows, right?

So there's always going to be a
place for the big brands.

However, I actually have had
quite a few conversations with

DDF and Delhi GT3, for example,
on the opportunity for more

niche brands and that the
appetite, they've been really

open actually.
So there's certainly appetite

there.
And I think that there's an

opportunity as well because what
with Duty Free, there's a lot of

competition, especially with
price related to the other duty

free operators globally.
So I think one lever that they

can pull to differentiate
themselves is around range and

how can they actually Dr.
incremental sales, not just

through price because that's
always going to be a race to the

bottom with the big brands, but
actually through having a wider

range, which is going to excite
the consumer.

So yes, to your point, I think
there's a big opportunity for

niche brands.
I'm talking to them now about

it.
So hopefully over the next few

years you will start to see some
more interesting propositions

appearing and being available in
travel retail.

Fantastic.
And this is something that I was

discussing on previous episodes
as well, on the fact that duty

free in general, they need to
scale up in terms of range

because otherwise then people
just get bored and then just

pass through the aisle just
thinking, OK, whatever, I can

get all this stuff every day.
So I want to have like something

special, which is the original
way of the old global duty free,

the travel retail duty free,
limited editions and all these

kind of things.
That's how they managed to stay

relevant.
But again, without having to a

limited edition, you can
actually play with a nicer,

wider range of products that can
actually make passer bys stop

and purchase that bottle from
your shelf.

And I think there's a lot of
competition now as well with

pricing and domestic markets.
So I think Dubai is a bit

different because of the
taxation here.

But certainly in other
countries, there's not a huge

disparity between pricing in
travel retail and pricing in

domestic markets.
So, yeah, I think that travel

retail operators really need to
think outside the box and some

of the pillars that they can
pull or levers they can pull a

certainly TRX exclusive, TRX
travel retail exclusives is huge

because it gives them that point
of difference.

Experiential activations as
well, which we've discussed, you

know, that's a point of
difference as well.

But another point of difference
can certainly be range.

And I think that there's a huge
opportunity for range expansion,

particularly in Dubai and other
golf travel retail sell outlets.

We don't have much range in the
domestic market here because of

our duopoly model.
So there's a really big

opportunity there to add a point
of difference and add something

incremental that shoppers can't
actually get in the mainland.

So let's wrap it up here.
I'm aware of your time and it's

a big pleasure to have you.
And I want to leave you some

space for telling the listeners
of them of our drinks podcast

how they can find you again
there, get in touch with you,

and if they need any help in the
GCC region, how to reach out to

you.
Thanks so much.

Yeah, it's been an absolute
pleasure.

I've loved talking to you,
especially about this topic,

which is obviously really close
to my heart.

So Kevin and I actually have our
own podcast called the Middle

East Drinks Podcast, where we
specialize in sharing and

educating our listeners around
the Middle East.

So I'll make sure that I get you
to return the favour and you

can, you can join me on that
sometime, Chris.

But yeah, we have our Instagram
page as well, Craft Culture,

under score, UAE.
And obviously I'll send you my

connections so you can put them
within the content of the chat.

But but yeah, we're really open
to hearing from all brands,

especially those brands that
want to access the Middle East

and don't really know how to go
about it and need that support.

It's an amazing region to be in
as I've it's a huge growth

potential in the future.
So it really does need to be a

market that's part of a brand's
growth export strategy.

So here to support those brands
as and when they need us.

Fantastic, Sophie.
So thank you so much and we

speak soon.
Thanks a lot, Chris.

Take care.
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