Case Study: How Mountainview Christian Church, Gresham, Oregon, is rebooting their church with groups.

Show Notes

Mountainview Christian Church is a 53-year-old legacy church, which boomed in the 1990's, but has struggled ever since, even before COVID. Now as they emerge from COVID, Mountainview is launching groups in a big way. You can hear how Lead Pastor, Tom Santillanes, and Discipleship Pastor, Craig Ziese, are experiencing big results with small groups.

What is Exponential Groups Podcast with Allen White?

In each episode you will discover effective ways to recruit more leaders, form better groups, and make more disciples. Guests to this monthly podcast will include small group and discipleship experts like Carl George, Dr. Warren Bird, Steve Gladen, Mark Howell, Dr. Bill Donahue, Bill Willits, Chris Surratt, as well as some pastors you've never heard of who are doing some amazing things with small groups and discipleship.

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[allen_white]: a

[allen_white]: yeah

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[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: us

[allen_white]: hey oh oh

[allen_white]: can

[craig]: be

[allen_white]: you hear me

[craig]: yes we can hear you

[allen_white]: can i hear you i can hear
you in a place i don't want to

[allen_white]: hear you at uh

[craig]: oh hey

[allen_white]: uh so and in addition to this
being the first

[craig]: oh

[allen_white]: instance where i recorded a pastor and
a discipleship pastor on the same thing this

[allen_white]: is also the first time i've used
this riverside studio

[craig]: i wondered

[allen_white]: so

[craig]: what this was so like this

[allen_white]: this could be fun it's supposed to
give us it'll break up are

[craig]: at

[allen_white]: our audio into separate channels

[craig]: oh

[allen_white]: and which is good um but then
it'll

[craig]: m

[allen_white]: give me a problem right now

[craig]: yeah

[allen_white]: okay i'm gonna

[craig]: oh

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: oh

[allen_white]: i'm gonna disappear for a second and
then i'll come right back it should keep

[allen_white]: you in the room

[craig]: okay

[allen_white]: so fingers crossed

[craig]: all right here we go

[allen_white]: you like being guinea pigs right

[craig]: i love trasinplaysin

[allen_white]: love

[craig]: a trakluely

[craig]: you died i saw the new seek
today one jumped in to save somebody so

[craig]: it was they were over she got
to the shore he died i was wondering

[craig]: that's what they were doing then they're
just canvas trying to find she was flailing

[craig]: she's like i'll go sooner never came
up there along their way right there the

[craig]: dock right by the r was packed
in air court way had tons of cars

[craig]: and there there wasn't very much beach
at all

[craig]: oh i told you almost want to
day and do that a couple of years

[craig]: ago yeah

[craig]: sons floating away from the back about
jumps in with like jack and goes to

[craig]: like right so now we have two
of you with that's why you should anyway

[craig]: yes so now we have two people
to rest basic first eight is last resort

[craig]: our last resort is june

[craig]: oh yeah

[craig]: yeah it makes sense the last words
came out was yelled into a lower cause

[craig]: i on anchored you that's right tell
story he stayed anchored up and jumped out

[craig]: of the back and like dude threw
right i told kid put your stuff away

[craig]: here we go can we pick them
up tonight i do remember self stupid stupid

[craig]: simon could have watched you die right
in front of that is tom i don't

[craig]: know how many times i've read it's
an are somebody's panicked and flailing somebody jumps

[craig]: in and the victim it's out in
an alternate way and the person that jumped

[craig]: in to save died

[craig]: don't chip in the water

[craig]: m

[craig]: oh yeah

[craig]: shoot forgot turn like trying to text
me

[craig]: yeah yeah yeah

[craig]: oh

[craig]: m

[craig]: oh

[craig]: he restarted computer back on it in
a second so i wonder if we should

[craig]: i think what i want to do
shut down

[craig]: all to sleep eh

[craig]: yea my son gets on my land
top dead could we have so many times

[craig]: over bad because i'm working

[craig]: i go to my email once an
hour

[allen_white]: oh stuff is happening

[craig]: hey there we are

[allen_white]: good stuff is happening

[craig]: oh

[allen_white]: all right

[craig]: a we

[allen_white]: all right so

[craig]: m

[allen_white]: you guys i can see like your
your shoulders

[craig]: well

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: the

[allen_white]: i can see a little more of
you that way now the good news is

[allen_white]: we're not going to use the video

[craig]: that's what i thought

[allen_white]: we're just trying to not interrupt each
other

[craig]: right

[allen_white]: which i will warn you occasionally you
know i will talk over somebody

[craig]: m

[allen_white]: and if you're you know saying something
poignant and then all of a sudden i

[allen_white]: start blabbing we may stop and i'll
just say hey go back and say that

[allen_white]: again and this time i'll shut up

[craig]: we

[allen_white]: so okay that works so the way
this will go is before the interview starts

[allen_white]: on the podcast all do

[craig]: m

[allen_white]: you know my generic podcast

[craig]: yeah

[allen_white]: intro i don't have any music or
anything it's just you know it is what

[allen_white]: it is and then i'll make an
introduction of the two of you um and

[allen_white]: then so when when this part starts
it's just going to start with hey tom

[allen_white]: craig welcome to the podcast and so
we have worry about all this time before

[allen_white]: i will need you guys just to
send me

[craig]: yeah

[allen_white]: a short bio and a picture

[craig]: yeah ah

[allen_white]: and we'll figure out how to get
both of you on the thing

[craig]: m

[allen_white]: but you know if we have to
cut somebody i'm sorry crag you

[craig]: hand

[allen_white]: have to go

[craig]: out always i put his name

[allen_white]: so

[craig]: as the guest

[allen_white]: yeah so that's all right yeah so
if you guys can send that to me

[allen_white]: then i'll get it all set up
and then tom i should know this i

[allen_white]: should have it marise i should have
a tattoo

[craig]: oh

[allen_white]: but what is the correct pronunciation of
your last name

[craig]: it could be anything you wanted to
be no it's the actual call i'm tom

[craig]: santalinis

[allen_white]: santalinas

[craig]: samtelinis

[allen_white]: there you go

[craig]: that will work it works

[allen_white]: because i was going to turn the
double l into a why

[craig]: technically

[allen_white]: and

[craig]: that's what it is in santianas

[allen_white]: there you go

[craig]: but people that ends up being worse
than the others

[allen_white]: santalinas

[craig]: oh

[allen_white]: there we go well it's like there's
a mexican restaurant that you're in town that's

[allen_white]: commonly pronounced l gallo because if you
didn't it would be pronounced l geo

[craig]: oh right yeah

[allen_white]: eh

[craig]: oh

[allen_white]: eh and you know that leads to
whole other issues so all

[craig]: it's

[allen_white]: right

[craig]: much

[allen_white]: do you guys

[craig]: corn

[allen_white]: have any questions

[craig]: is that it is in oregon

[allen_white]: well kansas has its own thing because
we are the home town of not only

[allen_white]: allen white but also of the west
borough baptist church

[craig]: yes you are yes you are

[allen_white]: so in fact there's a christian church
pastor from lincoln christian church in lincoln illinois

[allen_white]: stopped by a guy named brandon boyd
they were headed out to colorado she was

[allen_white]: in town yesterday called me and we
walked into starbuck which was very very decorated

[allen_white]: for pride but and i said our
starbuck i whispered our starbuck is usually not

[allen_white]: this gay but this is the home
town of the west boro baptist church which

[allen_white]: caleb colden box talks about in his
book

[craig]: yes

[allen_white]: um anyway we're not proud of that
in fact i used to be before they

[allen_white]: started work in some road work here
i would drive by their compound for the

[allen_white]: west bro baptist church when i was
leaving my office and i would pray for

[allen_white]: him and and days that i had
my sun roof open i would pray for

[allen_white]: them loudly

[craig]: ah they have visited here

[allen_white]: oh have they really wow how did

[craig]: a

[allen_white]: they

[craig]: little

[allen_white]: find

[craig]: contingency

[allen_white]: their way all the way out

[craig]: of

[allen_white]: there

[craig]: them ah

[allen_white]: wow

[craig]: yeah

[allen_white]: that's amazing

[craig]: we were not on their positive list
but they have sated

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: here

[allen_white]: yeah they protest in the park across
the street from our church and our church

[allen_white]: is like all of fifty people but
it's on the main you know street in

[allen_white]: topeka and

[craig]: okay

[allen_white]: i just i don't know i just
shake my head

[craig]: yeah yeah

[allen_white]: so what do you do t's it's
quite a legacy we got going into pica

[allen_white]: here all right any questions about what
do in

[craig]: i'm good

[allen_white]: all right any anything any questions i
sent over that you don't want to talk

[allen_white]: about

[craig]: now we've talked about most of those
questions often in various

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: settings

[craig]: oh

[allen_white]: all right the spirit of this is
that you know as much as people have

[allen_white]: you know they'll say oh my church
is you know such and such an age

[allen_white]: we would never be able to do
that or oh my church was in the

[allen_white]: lock downs for so long you've got
a lot of those guys topped

[craig]: yeah

[allen_white]: then for you to come around and
say this worked so

[craig]: it's true it's true

[allen_white]: i'm not looking for endorsement i'm just
looking to tell your story because i think

[allen_white]: this will give a lot of places
um hope because a lot of you know

[allen_white]: a lot of people just pastors don't
know what to do right now and so

[allen_white]: we want to kind of say hey
here's some things you know that barely post

[allen_white]: pandemic for you guys here are some
things that worked and this was the result

[allen_white]: and this is how worked connecting people
that are outside of our church this is

[allen_white]: how we have more leaders than we've
ever had

[craig]: m

[allen_white]: um and we'll talk about the team
we'll talk about the whole bit so

[craig]: great

[allen_white]: ah and so i don't know with
you guys have you kind of decided who's

[allen_white]: going to answer what questions or have
you thought about that

[craig]: no we've not talked about it i've
decided but that's because tom is really nervous

[craig]: and he normally

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: is pretty talkative but i can already
tell he's pretty quiet

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: so i figured the first couple of
questions for sure probably more in my realm

[craig]: and then where it gets down into
the specifics of the

[allen_white]: yes

[craig]: groups

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: really that's crags and he really intimately
knows our process

[allen_white]: okay

[craig]: and

[allen_white]: and if there's

[craig]: part of what you're looking for is
you know this doesn't work without the lead

[craig]: pastor's

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: support

[allen_white]: that's true

[craig]: and so

[allen_white]: it

[craig]: i'm

[allen_white]: doesn't

[craig]: happy to chime in and even even
say you know craig was was our guy

[craig]: to lead this initiative but he couldn't
have done it you know without without my

[craig]: support without me jumping in without me
having some moments where craig crag had to

[craig]: lead me and say you've got to
do this you got to do this you

[craig]: got to do this and we have
that reality that relationship and worked

[allen_white]: that's good that's good and obviously you
guys had a big success as a result

[allen_white]: of you know all of this

[craig]: i

[allen_white]: so good all right well let's get
started i mean and and just time for

[allen_white]: the sake of pers active my podcast
has literally dozens and dozens of listeners

[craig]: yeah hey i get it

[allen_white]: right so

[craig]: we

[allen_white]: it's not like you know five thousand
people

[craig]: i don't know

[allen_white]: or something

[craig]: it could change

[allen_white]: but

[craig]: because of us

[allen_white]: well

[craig]: yeah

[allen_white]: that's that's what i'm counting

[craig]: yeah

[allen_white]: on so if you're feeling nervous at
all

[craig]: on

[allen_white]: this

[craig]: go

[allen_white]: is he this is the pressure

[craig]: yeah

[allen_white]: all right all right let's get start
and so i'll just welcome you and then

[allen_white]: say something back and then we'll we'll
get going but just you know just i

[allen_white]: interviewed larry osborn for last month's podcast
and i was kind of just interviewing him

[allen_white]: for a book that i'm writing and
i said so part of this is an

[allen_white]: interview for the book and part of
it's the interview for the podcast and we

[allen_white]: just talked and then i had to
go back the conversation and i had to

[allen_white]: figure out okay wait what should i
put in the podcast what do i not

[allen_white]: put in the podcast because it wasn't
very it was just kind of free flowing

[allen_white]: i was fine

[craig]: ye

[allen_white]: um and then then people got mad
at me because i said the church should

[allen_white]: be should be political switsorlind so if
you want to get mad at me for

[allen_white]: that go ahead everybody else has already
done that this

[craig]: oh

[allen_white]: week right anyway all right let's go
all right tom and crag welcome to the

[allen_white]: podcast

[craig]: good to be with you hey allan
glad to be with you

[allen_white]: good to have you hey you guys
are at mountain view christian church in gresham

[allen_white]: oregon

[craig]: m

[allen_white]: for those of you who aren't aware
gresham is not portland did i get that

[allen_white]: right

[craig]: it is correct

[allen_white]: so tell us about mountain view christian
church how long has it been around and

[allen_white]: kind of how long have you been
there and tell me what's going on

[craig]: well i'll start out there mount christian
church was planted in nineteen sixty nine as

[craig]: a church plant from another church east
portland there was a lot of growth potential

[craig]: and gresham and so they intentionally planted
us out here and in the fall of

[craig]: nineteen six lance or over fifty years
old we were a prominent been suburbian community

[craig]: for years and years and years until
until that moved further south east from us

[craig]: and really we are demographics have just
drastically changed and so a church

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: that was vibrant with young families and
pretty much upper middle class people has drastically

[craig]: changed and we've become more urban in
nature with the local elementary school represents over

[craig]: thirty languages we have multiple amilies dwelling
in one home together in our community and

[craig]: really mountain view went for being a
community based church to be in a commuter

[craig]: church and so that's really that's really
who we are that's how long we've been

[craig]: around for me i've been on staff
since two thousand three came out as an

[craig]: associate youth pastor worked as a as
a youth and children's pastor and then became

[craig]: the lead pastor in two thousand thirteen
so almost nine years i've been serving as

[craig]: the lead pastor here

[allen_white]: you you've seen quite a bit of
change now i know crag's been on staff

[allen_white]: since nineteen sixty nine

[craig]: yeah

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: seems like that some days so i
came

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: in june of ninety nine so i've
just eclipsed twenty three years

[allen_white]: very good and what changes have you
seen over those twenty three years crag other

[allen_white]: than senior pastors

[craig]: yeah i've raised

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: up a lot of senor pastors and
that amount of time

[allen_white]: careful he's sitting right next to you

[craig]: yes he has

[craig]: gresham

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: exploded in about twenty years and literally
went from strawberry fields to the bedroom community

[craig]: of portland and i came in really
on the back end of that so in

[craig]: the early two thousand gresham was a
commune you're struggling with an identity

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: because we were really they grew up
as homes and so there still isn't a

[craig]: central business community

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: really an identity in our commune ah
for people to gather around and so that

[craig]: has been a struggle in our city
and we've had some of that struggle here

[craig]: in the church as well and i've
rolled through several positions here and landed at

[craig]: the time tom came on this lead
pastor and moving towards this small groups discipleship

[craig]: kind of role her mount

[allen_white]: yeah that's good that's that's very good
now let's talk about you guys are in

[allen_white]: oregon and obviously the pacific northwest as
well as a few other places in the

[allen_white]: united

[craig]: oh

[allen_white]: states um you had a lot of
covid trictions that lasted for a very long

[allen_white]: time i remember the first time i
came out to see you guys i went

[allen_white]: got a sandwich in an outdoor restaurant
everybody was outdoors there was no front to

[allen_white]: the restaurant i had forgot i put
my mask in my pocket and somebody yelled

[allen_white]: at me sir would you put on
your mask please and i'm thinking we're outside

[allen_white]: but it was a restaurant and there
was a mask mandate and so you guys

[allen_white]: saw that a great deal more of
it a lot of places um so what

[allen_white]: impact did all of these restrictions have
on you guys nd how are you able

[allen_white]: to do you know ministry through all
of that

[craig]: it was challenging um we as far
as portland metro area churches we are certainly

[craig]: a year to and even sixteen months
behind a lot

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: of the country so we shut down
in twenty twenty pretty hard april twenty twenty

[craig]: and no church we already

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: had life stream available so we leverage
to our full capacity we didn't have to

[craig]: pivot too much with that because we
were already providing it

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: but we certainly had a government structure
that couldn't make make decisive decisions very quickly

[craig]: and if if they were decisions

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: we began

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: planning you would expect that it's going
to change and so really we remained closed

[craig]: for when i say closed i hope
we all understand that the church isn't closed

[craig]: but you know we weren't having our
gatherings for well over a year um and

[craig]: then and then even when we were
able to gather there were a lot of

[craig]: restrictions six feet per person spread out
masks handsanitizing stations on so everything we had

[craig]: to pivot everything else in our gatherings
as far as passing communion plates and offering

[craig]: bags

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: and all of that we just had

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: to pivot our gatherings pret pretty substantially
and it really wasn't until this past march

[craig]: so we're talking just a few months
ago that the masks restrictions were actually lifted

[craig]: and people began returning to lie as
as we knew it in some former fashion

[craig]: and

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: so we we managed through almost two
years it was almost two long years of

[craig]: constant changing guide lines restrictions the amount
of people who could come what it did

[craig]: to our people is that it created
a fear factor in a lot of ways

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: people were fearful

[allen_white]: h

[craig]: of the gathering

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: certainly

[allen_white]: you too

[craig]: things that we saw on

[allen_white]: i

[craig]: the

[allen_white]: mean

[craig]: news

[allen_white]: lad

[craig]: media about churches and all that stuff
just heightens some

[allen_white]: a

[craig]: of that sensitivity to it

[allen_white]: i think you

[craig]: and so you know we managed as
best we could what i would say

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: is the best thing for us i'm
incredibly thankful we were already really working hard

[craig]: on our groups ministry getting people into
grow groups that's what we call them grow

[craig]: groups getting

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: them into small groups because our grow
groups didn't miss a beat they started zoom

[craig]: they met outside in big circles they
were doing all sorts of things and if

[craig]: it wasn't for our groups i'm not
sure that our church would have been able

[craig]: to serve but the level it has

[allen_white]: yeah that's it's amazing it's really amazing
how what you guys had to go through

[allen_white]: and yet you know because of groups
because of your online service you guys were

[allen_white]: what prepared in a lot of ways
i mean as well prepared as you could

[allen_white]: be and it wasn't like anybody knew
in advance so good all right

[craig]: two weeks

[allen_white]: just a second my my thing is
telling me my browser is limiting the storage

[allen_white]: available anyway we're going to keep going
and if we have a problem then we'll

[allen_white]: figure

[craig]: m

[allen_white]: it out again this the new thing
using the using this okay so i'll edit

[allen_white]: that part

[craig]: m

[allen_white]: out

[craig]: m

[allen_white]: all right so crag you reached out
to me a little more than a year

[allen_white]: ago and you were interested in putting
some concerted effort into your

[craig]: m

[allen_white]: groups what was going on at the
time and what were you guys hoping to

[allen_white]: change

[craig]: yeah so we have for five years
really desired to move towards being a church

[craig]: of groups not just a church with
groups and like tom said we had been

[craig]: down a track for a season and
we were a bible study based small group

[craig]: church

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: and so groups got people got together
for the purpose of bible study not necessarily

[craig]: for the purpose of a lot of
the other healthy things that happen

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: when you make the change to becoming
a group which is white changed the name

[craig]: to grow group and that was an
intentional part of that movement but an nose

[craig]: to me we hit the wall that
i found out as i did more and

[craig]: more research and we talked that we
hit him and unless we've made some drastic

[craig]: changes we were not going to get
to our goal uh in the middle of

[craig]: that

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: covid arrived and we went to zoom
we went outside we measured every room in

[craig]: our building to see what the square
footage was to see where our groups could

[craig]: meet according to the mandate the state
had put out and so

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: literally i had people now measuring a
square footage and telling us we know how

[craig]: many people could go in this room
and so we did everything that we could

[craig]: in order to help groups succeed that
were currently there and then it was our

[craig]: two weeks turned into two months turned
into a whole lot other things and i

[craig]: realized we are not going to in
any short time frame recruit any new leaders

[craig]: and grow many new groups the way
that we are currently doing it uh

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: and so i kind of went back
to school on my own and i read

[craig]: double digit numbers of books on small
groups that summer and

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: really landed on what you had written
and exponential groups and thought you know what

[craig]: i'm gonna make a call and

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: talk to allen about experience and here
we are

[allen_white]: here we are now you mentioned at
one point hitting a wall what do you

[allen_white]: mean by hitting a

[craig]: yeah

[allen_white]: wall with your groups

[craig]: yeah we got to a certain number
of groups and our process for developing leaders

[craig]: and recruiting people to fill groups feels
like it just masked out and we

[allen_white]: so

[craig]: weren't getting anywhere

[allen_white]: okay

[craig]: you know i would have been as
old as moses if we d have kept

[craig]: the same process to get any more
more groups going

[allen_white]: about how many groups did you have
at that point

[craig]: so we were we had about twenty
five solid groups at that point

[allen_white]: and what was the weekend attendance giver
take

[craig]: so prepandemic five hundred

[allen_white]: okay so i mean it's a very
common place we've talked about this is a

[allen_white]: very common place for church to kind
of get stuck or hit a wall so

[allen_white]: you you read my book and no
got thoroughly confused and then you called me

[allen_white]: and i'm kidding but you decided to
try some things because i mean i wrote

[allen_white]: the book out of you know finding
some things after my own frustration and hitting

[craig]: m

[allen_white]: a wall so i think that's what
you know connected with us so you decided

[allen_white]: to do an alignment series that you
launched in the new year this year tell

[allen_white]: us a little bit about the alignment
sere is why you chose the topic you

[allen_white]: did either of you could speak to
that

[craig]: yeah i kind of led the charge
in that and picked monsters in the closet

[craig]: because i wanted to do something that
would engage our community and so all that

[craig]: time talked us a little bit about
beginning to understand what

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: was going on spiritually in our commun
and about the same time that i was

[craig]: going through this we got to do
something different with small group outreach

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: i think one of the things that
it's important to mention is we had twenty

[craig]: five groups and we have a lot
of great people in those groups and a

[craig]: lot of great potential

[allen_white]: hm

[craig]: leaders but when we use the phrase
multiply it was like a danger word it

[craig]: was like immediately we were ghosted right
because the reality is they're doing life together

[craig]: some of these groups have been together
a few of them a handful of them

[craig]: have been together for thirty years and
when we start talking about multiply they hear

[craig]: split and they hear and they couldn't
a lot of our great people couldn't get

[craig]: beyond that as as just it was
a hurdle yeah that's really good it was

[craig]: a hurdle for him and so that
was part of where craig sat down and

[craig]: he and i had talked what does
the future of groups look like and he

[craig]: really created a four step process and
we had to come to the reality of

[craig]: where we were at and we were
kind of in between that second

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: and third process we have a dream
down the future

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: but we had to figure out

[allen_white]: hm

[craig]: specifically how do we how do we
recruit how do we help people empower people

[craig]: how do we break out of some
of the rigidness that we've had as far

[craig]: as expectations to just get people to
facilitate a group and and i think allen

[craig]: that's where exponential groups and you and
some of the training that really helped us

[craig]: significantly part of what you commented i
remember our first visit no hey leave the

[craig]: groups that are established leave them alone

[allen_white]: that's right

[craig]: and that was refreshing for us because
we were feeling it and we were feeling

[craig]: this rub at the same time and
so some of the tools you provided some

[craig]: of the things that you did really
gave us the freedom to great we'll leave

[craig]: those groups and not to get too
far ahead but we said to those groups

[craig]: you can do what you want to
do keep keep going down the journey you're

[craig]: going and suddenly not to create the
spoiler alert but then those groups are coming

[craig]: to us hey we wanted to do
that and so you know that was really

[craig]: what was part of driving us towards
we need some help here we just need

[craig]: some guidance

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: we need some direction and so that
was one go ahead

[allen_white]: i was just going to say what
would your fear have been if i had

[allen_white]: come in and said oh yeah you
need to scrap all of those groups that

[allen_white]: you have and they all need to
do this new thing how would that have

[craig]: we wouldn't

[allen_white]: felt

[craig]: have signed your contract that as been

[allen_white]: so what

[craig]: no dog yeah

[allen_white]: so what would the monster in the
fat closet have been

[craig]: uh fear of the unknown like i
said at the

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: beginning our community has changed so much
um m we don't know how to reach

[craig]: people in our community and so the
idea of reaching more people a lot of

[craig]: those people just couldn't see it

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: they just couldn't see it and so
the fear was you're taking us somewhere we've

[craig]: never been taking us somewhere that we're
actually skeptics

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: you will actually be able to do
anyway taking

[allen_white]: hm

[craig]: as some place that really is creating
some comfort issues for me and we needed

[craig]: to listen to that so we did
and you know you helped with a survey

[craig]: you helped give

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: us some insight and part of what
you said is leave those

[allen_white]: what

[craig]: groups alone there are people in your
church who can help you yet goals achieved

[craig]: without messing with any of those and
that was a huge breather for us so

[craig]: yeah and on the other side

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: of that our community was very clearly
saying we are interested and spiritual conversations so

[craig]: tom had a conversation with a local
church guy we have a connection with a

[craig]: with expand northwest it's a church planting
organization here in portland and he just gave

[craig]: us to die graphic and he just
said listen

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: in gresham a city of a hundred
and ten thousand there's seventy seven thousand

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: people who have said we're unaffiliated with
any

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: any religion any any faith at all
and we said

[allen_white]: wow

[craig]: man well you talk about the harvest
being plentiful the workers being few that that

[craig]: struck accord for us and and nine
out of ten of them won't come to

[craig]: our church with an invitation you just
won't attend

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: but seven out of ten will engage
in a spiritual conversation so this is what

[craig]: sort of drove us to monsters in
the closet is that was kind of our

[craig]: r filter this this has to allow
for us to have spiritual conversations with people

[craig]: who will never be interested in an
invitation to attend our church so we

[allen_white]: h

[craig]: focused

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: on some mental health things with monsters
in the closet

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: anxiety and fear and an the groups
that participated in that who reached people invited

[craig]: people into their homes who weren't part
of a church who weren't engaged in church

[craig]: at all whoa they were open to
the spiritual conversation s yeah

[allen_white]: so so the attractional piece of you
know everybody come like they did back in

[allen_white]: the nineties that wasn't working

[craig]: no help

[allen_white]: but the idea of come to my
house and let's talk about something that's concerning

[allen_white]: to you concerning to me and let's
see what the bible has to say that

[allen_white]: that worked now you guys actually created
your own small group corriculum uh for this

[allen_white]: assignment tell us about that

[craig]: we did so we put together a
team after our pastoral staff had determined the

[craig]: topics and so we put together

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: a team of volunteers for

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: a church and said here it is
go to town gave them some examples of

[craig]: what we might want it to look
like and really turn it over to some

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: folks unbeknown to us at the time

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: o had connections there of their own
to people who write coriculum and range and

[craig]: produce criculum and so you

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: know we we bathed this thing in
prayer early on and god just continued to

[craig]: open door after door after door larsually
unnoticed to us till after the fact and

[craig]: so you know we learned you know
you learn all these lessons along the way

[craig]: that you don't know that you're going
to learn as you go but you're willing

[allen_white]: hm

[craig]: to take a look and see

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: and so we a team of volunteers
put together one of the best steady guides

[craig]: i have had the opportunity to lead
a group through

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: as a

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: small group pastor they did a rock
star job and it was beautiful

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: it was beautiful to use it was
beautiful to watch to

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: them come to a complete project and
draw a line under and be able to

[craig]: say who did it to hear really
positive feedback from our church um and and

[craig]: to see even

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: our current groups jump in and say
well and you know tom alluded to that

[craig]: earlier we we we spent

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: it was it was

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: six months process from the time i
handed them

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: until we produced the end so it
was six months

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: of writing and rewriting and you had
given me a book a small little book

[craig]: on how to ask good questions i
gave copies of all

[allen_white]: hm

[craig]: that little book to all those folks
they read it i can tell they read

[craig]: it because of the questions that they
put into the criculum and then we got

[craig]: to the end result some of our
small groups long standing small groups started read

[craig]: through it and said hey

[allen_white]: okay

[craig]: we want to do this how can
we weren't invited to do this so we

[craig]: went back through the sneak peak talk
with him again and said you're always welcome

[craig]: to do this our target is and
work through the whole thing and yet god

[craig]: too had a work to do and
our current groups to help them with some

[craig]: of the same things that we knew
our community wanted to engage in scrirtualing

[allen_white]: that's very cool i remember back in
the day when i first did this and

[allen_white]: our established groups we were going so
fast we didn't even invite our established groups

[allen_white]: to be a part of it and
so some of us trust came to me

[allen_white]: and they said hey can we do
this or is this only for new groups

[allen_white]: and i said you know well what's
it worth to you and i'm such a

[allen_white]: compassionate

[craig]: uh

[allen_white]: aster

[craig]: h

[allen_white]: right so you is created this cricket
and if i remember right this was largely

[allen_white]: a volunteer team

[craig]: yes yes it was

[allen_white]: so

[craig]: my

[allen_white]: so they gave it so this wasn't
go and you know get all the staff

[allen_white]: members on this this was mostly a
volunteer team so then you recruited leaders and

[allen_white]: connected people into groups but you did
this a little differently and i believe tom

[allen_white]: was kind of a leading voice in
doing that if i'm not wrong

[craig]: no tom was one of the things
that we learned through expenental groups is the

[craig]: person who has to really champion groups
as your senior

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: pastor and it was kind of funny
so so we did this in january because

[craig]: in the rhythm of our community we
really see our church greatest church attendants from

[craig]: christmas to easter

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: and so we decided to do our
alignment series when our folks gather in the

[craig]: greatest numbers which is in the winter
time and so i have

[allen_white]: hm

[craig]: written a kind of an introductory for
tom to share as he for the first

[craig]: week recruited uh folks to host and
we shared that with you just kind of

[craig]: to take a peek at it and
you came back and said

[allen_white]: m

[craig]: you scared me

[allen_white]: oh

[craig]: that was on me tom was just
reading and doing what i wrote

[allen_white]: h

[craig]: him and i went back and like
oh shoot i got to go back to

[craig]: the drawing board so it was all
crags

[allen_white]: you guys you guys are becoming the
monsters

[craig]: you

[allen_white]: in the

[craig]: were

[allen_white]: closet

[craig]: the monsters

[allen_white]: you're freaking them

[craig]: i

[allen_white]: out

[craig]: dare

[allen_white]: i think

[craig]: because

[allen_white]: that's

[craig]: you're

[allen_white]: what i said

[craig]: so

[allen_white]: but

[craig]: so so so we

[allen_white]: but

[craig]: rewrote

[allen_white]: you pivoted we did that during the
pandemic

[craig]: did a much more positive approach

[allen_white]: a

[craig]: and so for three weeks time it
up and encouraged people to

[allen_white]: h

[craig]: ostagrup

[allen_white]: h oh

[craig]: on a sunday morning and they did
yeah

[allen_white]: let's talk about the result of that
how many groups did you gain how many

[allen_white]: and then talk about the people who
joined these groups

[craig]: yeah so we ended up with twelve
new groups which in twenty three years we've

[craig]: we come close to having twelve groups
any one single time let alone any year

[allen_white]: hm

[craig]: start um m and eight of those
groups finished the six weeks series and we've

[craig]: had five of those groups continue on
this spring and those

[allen_white]: that's

[craig]: groups

[allen_white]: great

[craig]: have reached unchurched relatives neighbors business associates
friends um m it's been amazing

[allen_white]: and so from what you were saying
before and these weren't necessarily people that were

[allen_white]: out of the established groups they were
still meeting but these were folks that maybe

[allen_white]: had never led a group

[craig]: most of these folks had never led
a group before our one pre requisite was

[craig]: do you have eight to twelve friends
co workers or family who can participate with

[craig]: you and join you in a group
and if that's the case you're qualified to

[craig]: facilitate will help you

[craig]: my it's all good

[craig]: so we i'll pause here for a
second so you have a pause

[craig]: yeah

[craig]: so we just simply said to our
church if you have anywhere from eight to

[craig]: twelve friends co workers neighbors anybody that
you could invite to participate group with you

[craig]: then you're qualified to be a facilitator
and we're going to help you we're going

[craig]: to give you a guide you're going
to get coaching from crag and some other

[craig]: coaches every single week to prepare you
and i think that was the first time

[craig]: for a lot of people who went
oh i might be able to do this

[craig]: we had to arrange we had a
couple of groups that one guy particularly i

[craig]: think of had four neighbors and he
met with them and he was doing a

[craig]: really good job until they started asking
him a bunch of questions about faith and

[craig]: he was like you know but we
had coco

[craig]: yeah

[craig]: that's okay you want us to log
out also

[craig]: okay i'll do that very good

[allen_white]: okay i'm back

[craig]: we're back

[allen_white]: now i have two crags

[craig]: oh well

[allen_white]: i don't know i keep telling me
i have low browser storage

[craig]: h

[allen_white]: i don't know what's going

[craig]: m

[allen_white]: on okay well let's well we'll finish
and then we'll go from there yeah crag

[allen_white]: your other crag is coming in so
anyway all right so o i'm sorry let's

[allen_white]: start again with what you were just
sharing yeah

[craig]: so we simply invited people

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: if you had eight to twelve friends
neighbors co workers to join you in dealing

[craig]: with some of these monsters then you're
qualified to facilitate it o and people suddenly

[craig]: thought i do have people i would
love to engage spiritual conversation s with and

[craig]: they felt qualified to be a facilitator
and we promise we'll coach you will help

[craig]: you there's some coaches that craig was
working with and craig sentine i think every

[craig]: week out to these coaches and encourage
them asked them for feedback and it was

[craig]: a beautiful thing for those weeks as
a matter of fact we had one guy

[craig]: his name i want tell you but
he asked his neighbors he said hey i'd

[craig]: like to do this group and they
said yes they scratch the surface with what

[craig]: we provided and sudden they started asking
a bunch of other deep spiritual questions he

[craig]: said

[allen_white]: yeah

[craig]: i'm out i'm unqualified for this but
he did it he tried it and he

[craig]: said we won't continue on but were
open the door for spiritual conversations

[allen_white]: that's fantastic that's so fantastic so let
me ask you that's just the last question

[allen_white]: what what's next for mountain view where
you guys headed in the next season or

[allen_white]: with groups or a church we what's
kind of percolating up for you

[craig]: yeah so at least as far as
groups goes what's next is we have been

[craig]: able to with the addition of an
alignment series really for the first time have

[craig]: several ways to help connect people to
groups we have a jump on host opportunity

[craig]: and an alignment series we have some
solid training for folks that come that have

[craig]: led a group in the past but
never a mountain view just to help them

[craig]: understand what what we expect of groups
and group leaders and then we have a

[craig]: brorupis fair in the fall that helps
connect folks that are here and ready to

[craig]: liking plug and play they've come to
mountain view they've had small group of experience

[craig]: in the past they just are ready
to jump in and they don't want to

[craig]: wait until january and so really we
we have a clear multi faceted way to

[craig]: people into and to start new groups
that really i think is gonna continue to

[craig]: help us be a church groups not
just a church with bruce

[craig]: men he

[craig]: i

[allen_white]: program

[craig]: i just i just told tom this
may not be allan's friend

[allen_white]: no it's not i mean i do
i usually record on zoom and everything is

[allen_white]: fine the advantage of this is it
splits out the channel so i can edit

[allen_white]: but yeah it's it's not my friend
so what we'll do is we'll say by

[allen_white]: and hopefully i got everything that i
need otherwise ill be calling you saying hey

[allen_white]: the thing we did yesterday yeah we
need to do it again

[craig]: again

[allen_white]: so anyway right so tom cragg thank
you so much for being with me today

[allen_white]: and thank you for applying these principles
to your church and just what an amazing

[allen_white]: result and i'm just so happy for
you

[craig]: thanks allen thinks allen

[allen_white]: ye all right so i'm goin to
hit