Robot Unicorn

In this fascinating discussion, Jess sits down with world-renowned sexologist Shan Boodram for a discussion about all things sex, shame, and self-discovery. Shan shares her personal journey from curious kid to professional sex educator, shedding light on the challenges and triumphs she's faced along the way.

Together, Jess and Shan dive deep into the reasons why talking about sex can be so uncomfortable, exploring the societal conditioning and messages that contribute to feelings of shame and awkwardness around intimacy. They also tackle the importance of comprehensive, age-appropriate sex education and the impact it can have on reducing stigma and promoting healthy relationships.

For parents tuning in, Shan offers valuable insights on how to approach sex education with children, emphasizing the power of open, honest communication. She and Jess also delve into the challenges of balancing motherhood and sexuality, providing tips for postpartum parents looking to rediscover their sexual selves and rekindle the spark in their relationships.

Throughout the episode, Shan and Jess share personal anecdotes and vulnerabilities, creating a safe space for listeners to reflect on their own experiences and beliefs about sex. They ultimately challenge us to examine our internalized messages and encourage us to create a new, shame-free narrative around intimacy for ourselves and future generations.

Whether you're a parent, a partner, or simply someone looking to cultivate a healthier relationship with sex and intimacy, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation that will leave you feeling empowered, informed, and a little bit more comfortable talking about sex.

Learn more about the Solving Bedtime Battles course here [https://nurturedfirst.com/courses/solving-bedtime-battles/].

Credits:

Editing by The Pod Cabin [https://thepodcabin.com/]

Artwork by Wallflower Studio [https://www.wallflowerstudio.co/]

Production by Nurtured First [https://nurturedfirst.com/]

Show Notes

Credits:

Editing by The Pod Cabin

Artwork by Wallflower Studio

Production by Nurtured First

Head to nurturedfirst.com/bodysafety to learn more about our Body Safety & Consent course!

Creators and Guests

Host

Jess VanderWier

Co-Founder and CEO of Nurtured First

Host

Scott VanderWier

Co-Founder and COO of Nurtured First

What is Robot Unicorn?

Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.

In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.

We are glad you are here.

PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.

Hey friends, Jess here.

Before we start the show, I wanted to note that today's episode includes mature content and explicit language.

It's not going to be the best show to listen to with little ears around.

Hope you enjoy.

Welcome to Robot Unicorn.

We are so glad that you are here.

As always, let's start the show with a question from Scott.

Jess, why is sex or like other natural bodily functions, those kinds of just things that everyone pretty much experiences in life?

Why is it so I don't know, so difficult to talk about?

What makes it so awkward for people?

'Cause if you think about it, we all experience we go to the washroom.

We do these gross things maybe.

I don't know.

We've had kids, so obviously there's something else that has been accomplished there too.

I just mean quiet because I want to continue to hear where this question evolves.

I mean you can even hear it in the way I'm asking why is it so awkward to talk about the concept of sex

or any like natural thing that people experience.

So you notice how as you're asking that question, I'm just quiet and I'm watching you and I'm actually noticing that you are feeling uncomfortable even asking me who's your wife?

100%.

This question.

So that I think tells you a big reason why it is so uncomfortable.

Let me start with this.

You said gross bodily functions

That's w what you said in terms of like using the bathroom and stuff like that.

Yeah, I'm kind of a germaphobe neat freak.

But I think that using the word gross

actually is deeper than that, right?

Because I think all of us and our parents and the generations before that, there's been like these messages passed down about what these things are, right?

I think even of a baby, you're changing their baby's diaper, and what's the first thing that you say?

Ew, yucky, I'm changing your diaper, it's so gross.

And actually when I'm teaching potty training, I say to parents right away, like don't call it gross, don't call it yucky.

You're right away labeling this bodily function as something that's shameful and bad

And so immediately off the bat we're teaching kids things like, okay, going to the washroom, going pee or poop, that's gross, that's bad.

So that's the first messages that they ever hear about pee and poop is that's bad

And I think those messages came from our parents.

It came from their parents to them.

So these have been passed down from generation to generation.

So that's where we start.

We start with our bodily functions are gross and b uh gross and must be weird to like compare those bodily functions to the act of sex.

Like I don't

I don't know.

Maybe it's just not not the right comparison.

So if you think about where we start

As children, our bodily functions are gross.

Ew, it's so stinky.

And and kids even I've worked with clients who are kids who are so afraid to go to the bathroom because they remember being made fun of like how big their poop was

Something as simple as that, right?

So then now there's this layer of shame around going to the bathroom or how stinky it is.

Uh even though every single person goes to the bathroom, right?

We start there.

And then we have this fear as parents and our parents' generation definitely as well of even labeling a body part

So now not only um do I have this fear around going to the bathroom, I don't even know the name for my own body parts.

Like the amount of thirty-year-old women that I've worked with who don't even know the word

Vulva is like outstanding.

So you don't even know the name of your body parts.

And then not only to add in other messages of

Like shame around sex or sex is bad, the having those desires is wrong, especially if you were raised in like a purity culture where it's like

You can never have sex before marriage.

If you do, like you're a terrible person, you're sick.

you can ever experience.

Right.

And you know how many can't turn that off in your brain.

You know how many married people that I have worked with and non-married who grew up in purity culture who have so much shame around sex.

They were like, my whole life I was taught it's bad, it's bad.

You can't do it till you're married and then they get married and all of a sudden they're expected to be this sexual person and be in relationship sexually with someone and they just don't know how to turn that switch on because they've actually shut it down for so many years

So I think the reason why we have so much shame to talk about it is because we've been giving these messages starting from such an early age.

And starting from even not even being told our anatomy because those words are dirty or wrong.

I get how people have not taught those things.

the names of body parts because I mean I feel like in Canada our education system is getting better for that kind of thing, but in general

like our parents, I don't know how well educated they were on that kind of thing, on naming body parts.

So like how would they know what to name anything?

But for us, like we actually know that.

And I feel like we are not we have no problem telling our daughters

the names to of their body parts.

Yeah.

But I just I don't understand the stigma around using the actual name for a body part.

That doesn't make sense to me.

I know.

It and it really once you understand how simple it is, it's just the name of a body part.

It really doesn't make sense that you wouldn't use those words.

But because

So many people have layers and layers of shame that they need to unpack for themselves around using body parts.

It's gonna be a long time before we can shift that.

Do you think

It comes down to the fact that people just feel shame for these things because of what they heard throughout their let's say their childhood or growing up and

as they got older, like the way that we were told or we talked about these things was as though they were bad?

I absolutely think that has a huge impact.

And then I think the secondary piece of that

is these are private acts.

Okay, so y you just think it really boils down to shame mostly.

Like I remember growing up

There was only one conversation that was had on the subject of sex, and it's because a sibling walked in and saw something and

There was an explanation that was required to give to us.

But that's it.

Nothing else.

And anything else that I heard or learned was mostly through peers and maybe through school.

Did you learn about sex in school

I don't know.

I don't think I did maybe.

I learned about body parts.

But you didn't learn about the act of sex, like what sex is, what that meant.

No, I don't think so.

I clearly remember

being separated from the boys in the programs.

Yeah, we did the same thing.

Yeah.

So the boys went to one class and the girls went to another class

I remember the girls learned about periods and having their period and the I think.

Probably not, because the boys don't need to learn about periods, which I also

This is where I wish we had a son 'cause I was like, oh I would love to teach a son about about this so that they could be the ones to talk about it with their with their girlfriends like confidently 'cause I remember any guy in high school or even grade school that you talk to about periods.

Like, oh, it's so cringe, it's so awkward.

And again, a normal, very common bodily function that let's just never talk about it, even though it happens once a month.

And I mean that is a whole other podcast of what that does to women to say you can't talk about this thing that happens to you that impacts your hormones that happens to you every single month.

Like you know I could go on a whole rant.

And I would.

But that's not the point of this this conversation.

What to say that the boys got the sex talk, the girls learned about their periods and mind you, I already having my period at this time.

I don't know if we got the sex like we never learned about that.

In parti I think it was just body parts.

Just body parts.

And it was like grade seven or something like that.

Yeah.

And the all the boys in the class are like, okay, yeah, I think you know what that body part is by this point.

Yeah

So what do you think the impact on you personally was of never having any education about sex, never talking about it?

And if it was, it was very hush-hush.

What do you think the impact on you as a young as a young child was?

I feel like it's more like it was a shameful thing.

That's pretty much what it boiled down to.

It was a terrible thing.

So when you started to maybe this is too far for a podcast, but when you started to have like urges or desires or started to see women, what was the message you give yourself?

Is it like, well, I'm bad for having these Yeah, a hundred percent

Yeah, and I I feel like that's so many people and I feel like Shannon and I talk about that in the podcast as well, right?

Is that feeling of shame that you have and guilt you have towards yourself.

This podcast is amazing.

Shan is such an expert on sex and I love how she talks about it so openly.

Yeah, she was super cool.

She was amazing.

And

She got me to open up things I never thought I'd maybe talk about on a podcast before.

But I can't wait for you to listen to her episode.

It's incredible.

In case you don't already know her, Shan is a certified sex educator.

She's an intimacy expert, and she has her master's degree in psychology.

She also happens to be a best-selling author and she's touched the lives of millions of people.

Shanna talks about sex and sexuality with depth, humor, and relatable insight.

You might recognize her.

She's been on a lot of different television shows, being the sex expert on these shows.

Most recently, she's been on Netflix's show Too Hot to Handle.

She's probably one of the most influential voices in the sex space today, and we are so lucky that she.

She took time to join us on the podcast.

I know you're gonna love her.

Let's dig in.

Shan, I'm so excited to finally talk to you and catch up.

I love that you're a fellow Canadian.

You're from the Toronto area, right?

So if you're maple leaves, I always try and do this.

I should try and come on up with it in advance.

But yeah, maple, maybe just a five.

How about that?

Yeah, five's probably good.

Yeah.

Did you grow up watching the Maple Leafs?

I did not.

I did not grow up.

I'm immigrant parents, so they never played hockey or got into hockey.

But I do remember in high school when the Maple Leafs made the playoffs and the joy pouring out of every locker and every car was just something really beautiful.

So where did your parents immigrate from?

My mom was born in England, she's a Dominican N Irish, and my dad is Guyanese

So they actually both spent their childhood in the Caribbean, obviously different countries.

They both lived in England at some period of time but never met.

And then their family both immigrated to Canada.

And then that's where they both met in the medical field.

So similar like intertwining lives.

Are your family Canadian or are you first generation?

We are not first generation.

Uh I guess we'd be second generation Canadian.

Uh both of us have grandparents actually that immigrated from the Netherlands.

as adults from the Netherlands to Canada.

So our parents would be first generation, we'd be the second generation.

But yeah, it's definitely been interesting.

We actually went back to the Netherlands

last fall for a month and spent a month with our family.

So it's been interesting to kind of discover and see how things are different now that we're a few generations in here versus there.

So that's been really interesting.

And I saw that you came down to Canada for six weeks this summer, is that right?

Yes.

Look at you.

What a nice detail to remember.

Yeah, I was there for six weeks and

It was necessary but long.

But it was really, really cool.

I mean the thing about Toronto that you really just can't beat is the multicultural aspect of things.

And just for my kids, and and Los Angeles is a multicultural city to an extent, but it definitely is a lot more sectioned off in terms of neighborhoods of what kind of kids you're going to interact with and

The one of my favorite stats from Toronto is that if you walk down the street, you're not going to pass by the same race or ethnicity three times in a row

So it's just always gonna be something different.

And so I really appreciated that element of introducing that to my kids of, you know, this is a huge part of my upbringing.

And then of course

to family and to so many people that I love and who love me who now got a chance to love my children.

Yeah.

It's so nice to be f there for an extended period of time too, so they can really get to know your kids versus

a little day or two visit here and there that must have been special to be able to bring your kids for so long.

You know what's interesting and maybe this is an incorrect thing to say, but it feels like with young kids you get the gist in an hour.

I'm sure older people, it takes longer and the longer time that you have with them, the more that they warm up to you, you learn more intricacies about them.

But I felt like you could spend a day with my kids and be like, okay, this one's like that, that one's like that.

So but that could be me um

I mean as an expert I'd love to hear your take on that.

It could be me just overgeneralizing small people.

Yeah, I mean that is one of the things I love about kids is that you do get to know them.

They're just so honest.

They can't hide pieces of themselves.

I feel like the way that we can as adults, you can sometimes mask those pieces of yourself and it takes a while to really see the true self come out.

Whereas kids are just authentic all the time.

And

And I love that about kids.

And also it can be difficult sometimes, but I definitely love that about kids.

So I'm really curious.

I know that now you are this world-renowned sexologist and you talk about sex all the time

And I mean, I'm a mom as well of three kids and I'm just so curious for you growing up, what was it like with the

Were you already interested in this topic and how did your parents respond when you started showing interest?

I definitely think

the way that some kids gravitate towards the piano or to art, I gravitated towards intimacy, which can be a terrifying interest for a parent, which I can empathize with that.

And it was terrifying for my parents.

By the time I was

six or seven years old, my Barbies were banned from being naked because they always had their clothes off.

I mean they did other things too, but like that just was like a natural part of like their existence.

And so my mom would come into the room and tidy up our toys and find this and

you know, had some concerns and in addition, I was just curious about my own body and my mom's body and my dad's body and in an age-appropriate way.

You know, one of the greatest things I did

studying this was I did a course that was talking about sexual development in kids and we you know talk about ECE a lot, but do we talk about what's normal sexual behavior age by age?

And so

That was really healing for me because learning that at five years old, it's normal to play house.

It's normal to be

curious about other people's genitals doesn't mean that you are lewd, which was a word that I was called a lot growing up, or that you're inappropriate, that something is wrong with you.

It's this is a natural part of our body, no not dissimilar to how kids are fascinated by poop, right?

You don't think of that as a bad thing.

It's just it's a human function that's interesting.

So my parents, you know, naturally I think, you know

did not encourage this interest area of mine.

And so I f grew up feeling like, wow, this is something that

If I talk about or I engage in, it makes my parents mad.

It makes them sad, it makes them ashamed of me.

So I didn't

And then when I became a teenager and hormones kicked in and I had a whole different, you know, set of motivations to engage in it, I also knew in the back of my mind that this had to be something private.

And that led to

Lots of porn watching, reading of fiction novels, watching movies that were sexual in nature, rewatching the parts which

you know, I I guess it's okay that I found an outlet, but obviously when we consider the source, it wasn't factual information.

So when I actually started to engage as a sexual person

One, I didn't consult my parents about it or consult any older people because of the idea that I had that this was bad and it made grown ups not like you.

And two, what I had as my guidance was fiction and heteronormative and

Male centric at that.

So by the time I was nineteen years old, I essentially came to a crossroads where I'd had multiple sexual partners and

Lots of negative experiences, low self-esteem, and I'd never had an orgasm with a partner.

And I remember thinking to myself, okay, either all the adults were right, this is a very bad thing, and you shouldn't engage with it

Or I've just been doing it the wrong way.

So I took a bet on that.

And again, in sneaky fashion, I got a library card

And for that summer, every day I went to the library and read a book about sex.

It was like finding a spell book, right?

It was like I was my mind was being blown apart because I was like, wow, like

There is information here on how to make this part of your life not stressful, not painful, not shameful.

But nobody unless they're going to go to the library is going to have access to it.

And that's when I came to the idea that that maybe that it was my mission or maybe it was my job to bring this information to the forefront and to get the average person invested in how their sex life and transforming their sex life

could improve their self-esteem and improve many other parts of their life.

So that was the beginning of my career was was 19.

I went to school for journalism and in journalism school they say write what you know.

So if you know Britney Spears, then you become an entertainment reporter.

And if you love the Maple Leafs, then you become a sports reporter.

And I was like, okay, well I know fucking.

Like that's the thing that I know and I care about.

So that's what I wanted to talk about.

I love that.

I'm so curious about

So many aspects of what you just described.

But to bring it back to being a little kid, I think you and I are similar, but then it was expressed differently.

So I mean I'm a therapist now

But I also was so interested in this idea and I like how you call it intimacy.

Ever since I was a little kid as well, I also had the naked Barbies.

And I also had this idea of like

anytime a relationship would be talked about, even on a kids' TV show, like those are the episodes I wanted to watch, or anything to do with kind of that intimacy, closeness, that's what I was really interested in.

but also had the messages that this is bad, this is not something that we express.

And so I think for me it kind of went the opposite way where then I became this good girl, like super good girl, never do anything wrong, and also not talk about

any feelings or desires or anything like that.

But I think for me it kind of went the opposite way.

So I'm really interested to hear your take because I'm sure you've done a ton of reflecting on it.

Why do you think for you it kind of came out in

Well, I'm gonna still engage in this behavior, but I'm just not gonna tell my parents and how did that kind of come out for you on your reflections of it?

It could have been inconsistent messages, like my mom was very much

If you do this, you'll hurt me.

If I find about my I remember when I was 17 or so, my mom found condoms in my room and she sat me down and was like in tears, like as if she found

I don't know, like a voodoo doll with like nails in it that looked like her.

Like she was just like, How could you do this to me?

And I was like, I'm not using them, I swear I got it for free.

But

I don't know.

I think if I found condoms in my kids' room, I'd be like, okay, at least they're thinking about it in this way.

And I want to make sure I can support I mean, obviously I have the education, but my dad was very much like

ask me anything and he would share a lot of information.

He wouldn't guide the conversation.

He wasn't as loud of a voice on the topic as my mom was, but it could have been inconsistent messaging.

I really do think a lot of it was hormonal for me

I can relate back to just the drive that I had, which is something that I, you know, as the work that I've done, I've talked to a lot of men about their sexual experiences, and so many of them will talk about this like

insane urge to masturbate, like this insane urge to ejaculate from the time they were around like twelve to eighteen or so and they would make jokes like, I wish I could have called the police on myself.

I could be raw.

I could the skin could be chafing and I couldn't stop myself.

And to an extent, I relate to that.

So I just feel like my bodily makeup was knots that I could ignore it.

I definitely would have preferred to

So I definitely would have not liked it.

I mean, it caused a lot of friction between me and my parents.

I think that myself and my sister's sex life was probably the most contentious period of time in our lives with them

we got kicked out and I I I believe it was somewhat related to that.

I just there's a lot of lot of lot of problems.

So if I could have, I would have.

And that was actually something interesting for me even too, because I remember after completing this course and learning about

what is normal in terms of development.

Even learning about when someone is sixteen years old, because the average age, you know, in countries where women have agency or young women have agency

The average age of first sexual experience is around sixteen across the board, regardless of like what the culture influences is.

And that is because biologically what happens at that time is that your pelvic floor fuses together

and then now the flood of hormones start to come in more regularly.

At the time your period might start to become a lot more regular, so biologically things are just turning so that now this drive becomes very like undeniable in you.

Similarly to how kids walk at one year old, right?

certain things developmentally happened to now they stand up and they have this urge to walk.

And so I remember saying to my parents, you know, years later, like, cause they were so mad at me for having sex.

They took it so personal.

And I was like, you know, when I started walking as a kid, did you push me down and say, like, how dare you?

No, like you understood that this was like natural development, that this was natural biological development.

Why did you, especially people from the medical field, why did you take it so personal and like why didn't you have more empathy in that way?

And did your parents respond to that?

I'm really curious what the response would be to explaining that to them

Yeah, I think my parents, and obviously because of what I do, um and how much I talk about it, they have come around to saying that the way that they approached it wasn't the best way.

And

They'll defend themselves.

They have good defenses, right?

They were better than their parents, right?

And better than their previous parents.

And they were young.

My parents had myself and my sister like in their mid-early twenties.

There's a lot that they could contend with.

I went to a Catholic school.

So like there's a lot of influences that are happening and you know it's it's a social game too, right?

it wasn't just a matter of my sexuality offending them if other people knew then that would be a bad reflection on them.

And that's just a sign of the time.

So I can have empathy for why they felt that way.

And I think that they would do things differently now

Yeah.

I I think that's so true for so many of the topics that we talk about in parenting too, right?

We can have compassion for our parents.

We can understand why that was so hard for them.

And it's really cool to see our parents watch us, watch you work and be like, oh, okay, I would do things differently now that I have the knowledge.

And I think that's why the work that you do is so important too.

I think a lot of the parents that come to me, they come to my page, they often are talking about all the things that you talk about.

Like, oh my goodness, my child

only place with naked Barbies or they're interested in touching themselves or they're interested in all the self-exploration and I think we right away turn it to something that's bad or dirty or that we want to stop for our kids.

And so I love that you talk about how that's actually really normal.

I remember also I went to University of Guelph and they had a lot of sexual development classes and stuff like that there.

I know you went to U of T.

So they had a great program there.

And I also remember taking a class, I think it was sexuality throughout the lifespan or something like that.

Yes.

I read a lot of books from the University of Guelph.

So I I know that they're one of the leaders.

That's really cool.

Yeah, they have some really amazing classes there.

Yeah.

So I remember similar to you and my mind was blown.

I was like, oh my goodness.

Okay.

So it's not this bad or dirty thing.

It's

this part of who we are as human beings.

So when you're in university, you have all these messages, sex is bad, you're starting to be really curious, you're you're reading books.

Now you're in these classes.

When does your mindset shift into the point where you're like, oh, this could be a career?

This could be something that I really want to educate people on.

Yeah, really and truly like day one, I think, of journalism school.

I mean, that was it.

It was that

conversation of write what you know and this is what I knew.

Was it as clean as that?

Absolutely not.

Like I started a website

And this is me trying to placate my parents in society.

So it I called it Save Your Cherry.

com and I was like, I want to talk about sex, but the purpose is that nobody has it.

But I remember the way that I did it, it was like to me, because I was so drawn to fiction novels and fiction books and movies and porn, so I was like, what do these spaces do really well that sex ed doesn't

They make sex sexy.

They make it fun.

They make it wet.

They make it personal.

They make it hot.

Like sex education should be like that.

My idea on Save YourCherry.

com was for people to tell their real sex stories and not skimp on the fun parts like

Get me invested in the characters.

Tell me how you guys first met about the first kiss.

Tell me about the awkwardness of buying condoms together, whatever it was.

So I told my story of my first time in great detail.

I also talked about the aftermath in great detail because I was unprepared, because I didn't have people to go to, because I didn't carry condoms.

I ended up having sex with somebody that I just met for the first time.

We did not use protection.

And for months after I was convinced I had AIDS.

And then I had to figure out by myself

Where is the nearest sexual health clinic?

And then I had to go there.

And I was in tears because of all the shame that I felt to the point that they were like, was this consensual?

Like, were you harmed?

And it was like, no, I just

feel like I've done something so wrong and having to face the idea that this one action that I did could mean the rest of my life I'm gonna be carrying an illness was like overwhelming.

So I talked about all of that.

But

The fact that I talked about the sex part in detail, you know, my mom when she found it, she was just like so mad again, so personal.

And she's like, Don't you know that boys are gonna be laughing and masturbating and at you?

Like I'm like, what

Kind of porn do you watch where like there's this circle jerk where people are tickling themselves and reading stories online, but in either case, I also use that website in my school, like for like my school email.

And I remember a teacher saying to me like stop using that email address.

You need to use something different.

Or I had an opportunity to go to like a local news station, like City TV.

And when they asked about each student, as a small group got to go, they were like, hey, what are you interested in talking about?

And then I wrote my little about me, you know, talk about sex and relationships, whatever.

My teacher was like, this is not acceptable.

you have to change this to something else.

So it wasn't like it was championed.

Like once I made this decision and if my mom was like that uh house on fire meme with the dog, I would just be

Studying all the time, I would be in the living room with books.

I would be doing this website, collecting stories, asking people for stories, which this was like when Facebook just got started.

So everybody was like, you're a weird, creepy man in Minneapolis, go away

I'm like, no, no, I swear that this is legit.

So I was doing this very secretly.

My mom was just like, I'm not asking her any questions.

I'm not paying attention to this.

This is eventually gonna go away if I just ignore it.

So I had the interest there, but I I definitely didn't have the support

So when I came out of school, I happened to find a publishing place that was in California called SEAL Press.

That was a feminist press that published the book.

But by the time the book came out, I was so exhausted from fighting back against people and so exhausted from justifying this.

And the book didn't really perform that well.

So at that point in time, I was okay, I'm gonna put this down and um pick something else

And then I entered into what I would call lost years, you know, a few years of just being pretty directionless until I eventually came back to this at twenty eight and then said, no, no, I'm doing this for real.

Wow, yeah, so many pieces there.

It sounds like so much of your journey has been you being like, no, this is really important.

We need to share these stories.

And what I love about you sharing the stories is you're sharing every piece of it.

You're not just saying

Here's people meet, they have this amazing sex, and then story over, you're saying, no, here's all the pieces of the journey, here's how they met, here's the amazing sex, or not.

Here's the end, here's the good, the positive, the bad, the messy.

And I think that that is so important.

I can see how even in those early days people

would have wanted to read it.

And I think people want they want real stories.

I think that's why they still love you now because you're still so honest and you share the real and the messy.

And I think that's really, really important.

I'm just curious about this from my own perspective

How do you keep going when everyone tells you stop or no or this is bad or this is dirty?

How do you have that inside of you to be like, nope, this is important, I'm going to keep going?

because the people who do want it don't have anywhere else to go.

And they make sure that you know that.

So as much as I had

individuals of authority who were like, stop, this is wrong, this is dirty, this is embarrassing, this is shameful.

How could you do this to yourself, you know, to your future, to us, to our reputation?

My peers and people who were consumers of it were like

I can't even begin to tell you.

And I knew how I felt when I found those books in the library.

I knew that wave of relief that I wasn't broken, that wave of relief that I was enough, that I was normal, that I was good

And giving other people that in real time and seeing that reaction is addictive.

That's a drug by itself, right?

And you just know that you're doing something worthwhile.

and meaningful.

It was messy and it yeah definitely wasn't encouraged from top down but at eye level

I was a hero.

I was definitely bullied for it.

You know, bully is the wrong term.

I was like, you know, at the time I was 19.

I don't think I feel like I was past bullying.

That's probably not accurate, but there's definitely people who made fun of me, people who tried to sled shame me and

I don't know that this never really maybe because I was so used to the criticism, like it was baked into what I did.

Hearing it from people who were my age, like

who were eating lunchables still.

Like that did not taste good at all.

I get that from a different perspective.

I mean I talk about parenting stuff, right?

So it's a little bit different.

It's definitely not as taboo as talking about sex.

But I do remember that when I started my page, it was probably about six and a half years ago.

So I've been doing this for a while as well.

And when I started, nobody was talking about parenting without punishment

And that was brand new.

And when I started talking about it, I did get a lot of pushback too, like from an older generation and from peers

Really, you're gonna post on Instagram or or I knew people would be teasing me or making fun of me behind my back because I mean my first videos were terrible and my first vlog was terrible, but I can

Relate in the piece that when it's aligned with your values and who you are, and your I know this message is important and it's going to reach the right person

You do, you just keep going and you are looking to the people who need it the most and hearing their stories.

And it sounds like that's really similar to you as well.

I can't even your work takes in

incredible amounts of bravery.

Every time that I watch a video that's about parenting that feels one innocuous or too just relatable or kind of funny or like

interesting I'll go to the comments and I'm like whoa I did not anticipate this level of emotional interpretation it's such a sensitive and similar to sex right like

A lot of times when people give me a lot of pushback, it's because I know that this is an area of deep sensitivity for them.

They're afraid of being found out.

They're afraid of admitting certain things themselves.

They don't want anyone to talk about it

And they don't want anyone to say anything that challenges how they feel because it's just so raw.

Like it's a wound that they're like, this band-aid over top of it, if I take this off, I am going to bleed out.

So I think that with parenting, it's very similar.

I mean, it's why

Very early on when I first had my first daughter, I made a rule on my social media.

I'm like, don't talk to me about my parenting at all.

Like I don't need it.

I have

mother-in-laws, I have people in my life who if I'm doing something that glaringly bad will redirect me, but I cannot handle this level of opinion and emotionality around you guys watching a 15-second, that's when Instagram stories are 15 seconds.

watching a 15-second you know glimpse into my world and just coming up with all these diagnoses for my kids and you know so I just whenever I meet people like yourself one you are

the library to me at 19 years old.

I'm like, I genuinely, and we're gonna talk about this, how much I need your information and need your expertise and your credentials, but I also am like

man kudos to you for doing it because I couldn't because that that area is is very very vulnerable for people and you know for good reason they care about it and they want it to go well.

Yeah it reminds me a lot of what you're saying.

I think our journeys are kind of similar just in different fields

There's definitely a lot of the pushback too and and a lot of people who question you, but it's a lot of these deep rooted beliefs that they have because of their own upbringing and their own experiences.

And I'm sure that's a lot of what

comes into people's hesitation towards talking about sex or sexuality or their children.

So back to your story, I'm curious.

So now you're you said I think you're 26 or 28 and you decide you took a little break.

Which makes sense.

Like the burnout that you can feel when you work so hard on a product, like a book, and it doesn't do super well, and you're like, okay, maybe I just need to step back.

What made you decide to get back into it and what did getting back into it look like for you at the time?

I was doing wedding photography because I needed to make money.

And that was kind of the thing, right?

So I was doing wedding photography

And living with a partner in Toronto.

Okay.

And I had cried in every square centimeter of that apartment.

I remember there was like a Canes Deep Dish advertising outside my window and to this day if I see that cake it like makes me break into tears because I would just stare at this

billboard and just sob.

I was just so unhappy.

And I got a random call from BET and they were putting together a panel of people and they're looking for a sex and relationship expert.

And obviously I had this book

And it was published in California, so it's North American published that didn't do well, but you know, I guess did well enough that it came across their radar and they were like, would you like to come down to Los Angeles and audition?

And then I was like, well, I I put this away.

I put this side of myself away and I don't really know.

And of course I'm like, whatever, I'll just go and do it.

And it was one of those things too where the producer reached out several times.

And the first time I was like, nah

Second time I was like, uh maybe.

And then the third, I was okay, I'll what's it, whatever, I'll just go.

It's a week, right?

I actually had a friend who lived in LA, so I could stay with them, so it worked out fine.

And then I came and I just had such a blast

I loved it.

I loved the conversations.

I loved the energy.

I loved the me.

Like I loved the me that I got to be when I was talking about this from a place of expertise, of authority.

And doing so in front of people who wanted that information and wanted that side of me was just so much fun.

And when I went back home, went back to this life and um

That show never got picked up.

But if you're familiar with the immigration process, if you have a deal memo, you can use that as like a case study for immigration.

I ended up having to start applying for my visa anyways because on the chance that it did get picked up, I would have to go and be able to work.

So midway through my application, I found out that the show wasn't gonna happen.

And then I was at this crossroads, like, okay, I can just stay in my life here.

There's no real reason for me to change anything or to move.

And if I did, there's nothing there for me.

But I was like

I've tried life this way and I tried to do it everybody else's way.

It's just not working for me.

Like what's so wrong with trying one more time?

And so I I came here under the premise that I would just stay for a couple months and I'm about to celebrate ten years here next year.

Wow, so you you made the move just thinking to yourself, well, you know what, maybe one last try.

We'll just see see how it goes and I can relate to how you're feeling like

you're doing the show, even though it didn't get picked up, you're like, man, okay, I'm I'm speaking from a place of authority.

I'm walking in my calling.

This is what I meant to do.

And it's that renewed light or excitement.

So what did you do when when you got there?

And so you moved to LA?

Are you still with your partner at the time or yes.

So I because I was only coming for two months, I was like

We're gonna break our lease, but don't worry, like we're gonna still gonna stay together, which you know uh we should not have been together to begin with, let alone have moved in, let alone have tried long distance.

If you guys can't figure it out when you're a

Staying in the same bed, you're not gonna be able to figure it out when you're worlds apart.

I'm using a broad term.

I'm sure someone's sitting listening right now being like, that's exactly how my marriage happened and we're happier than we ever been.

So not to say that that can't be someone else's story, but

For me personally, yeah, if you can't figure it out with somebody when you are nose to nose in the morning, when you live countries apart, it's just gonna get even worse.

And yeah, I came here

Slept on a couch, came down with just my car, kind of the standard story, and then just hustled.

That was it.

I woke up every single day.

I I was actually reflecting on this.

Because when I came to LA, I used to hate the weekends because I had no money and I couldn't do anything.

One, but two, like all I wanted to do was work and when people were getting out of a work mentality.

It was like, you know, well, now what I went to school for sexology when I got here.

So I was like, okay, I wanna div get stronger into my expertise.

And so I went to a school in San Francisco.

And I was there wasn't a lot of people like me, you know?

So I was getting opportunities pretty early on.

You know, obviously as you probably can attest to.

I mean obviously it's different if you work in clinical, but

If you're working in media and you don't have a lot of experience and you're just doing, you know, one-off opportunities here and there, they're few and far between.

You're not making a great living.

I was probably making around twelve thousand dollars a year, but even then I had come here and I was doing photo booths

as a way to keep myself afloat.

But I was hustling and I was in school and I was working and I was working a regular job to keep myself afloat.

I was just in it.

There's a couple times in my life where I've just been in complete awe of myself

of the resilience of the determination of the stick toitiveness.

One would be when I was 19 and I started my Savior Cherry journey when everybody was saying no, no, no.

And I'm like, this is important, has to be done.

And second would be when I was twenty-eight, which is probably about two to ten years apart in each time, where I moved to LA and I was like, I'm gonna make this work.

And people are like, what's

this and then at the time even nope there wasn't a lot of familiarity around sex experts and sexologists like these were all like concepts that no one had heard of before so I really feel like I was a part of

a group of people who really made this.

No, Dr.

Ruth, of course, exists in Sue Johansen, but those are like for older white figures.

I was one of the first who looked like me in my age group.

to dare to ask people to look at me as a voice of authority on a topic that they feel very sensitive on already.

So it was a wild ride and I'm really like impressed with myself that I stuck to it.

Yeah, I I definitely think you should be.

I think

That's the point in that so many people do not even give up, but they just say, oh, maybe it's this opportunity is not here for me.

But it's that showing up every day and trying and trying and learning more

And putting yourself out there so vulnerably is really difficult to do.

So I love that you just you kept going.

When you did your certificate

Certification and sexology, did that change things for you a little bit, having more of that education, or was it all kind of things that you had already learned through reading, but now you just had the diploma, their certificate?

Yeah, I actually did my expertise somewhat backwards.

So I went to school for journalism, graduated, then I went to a CE course at U of T and then got certified as a sex ed counselor.

And then I worked there like really casually in like my early twenties.

But when I turned, you know, twenty-five, my book came out, I'm like to hell with all of this.

And so when I came out here, I was like, okay, I want to, you know, improve my education.

So then I got

Certified as a sexologist and I got an associate in sex ed.

And then only like a few years ago did I go back and like complete my bachelor's.

I'm about to finish my master's.

December, I'll be done with that one.

And I got I did it in psychology.

It's a weird thing because I can't really draw the strongest of parallels because I don't work as you do, right?

So I don't work clinically and I don't work in a field that I need to be licensed in.

Is there a direct correlation between my education and my earning capacity?

I'm not sure.

Is there a direct correlation between my knowledge and my formal education?

Yes, but also no, because I can definitely say that the informal knowledge that I just gained by putting myself out there listening to people's stories, my number one educator.

bar none has been other human beings.

And as a public figure, I have access to so many people's stories and so many people's truths.

And if I go to the grocery store, I'm gonna get somebody else's information.

They're gonna tell me about something that they do that I've never heard of before.

Number one, my biggest education has been the public.

Number two has probably been more the informal education that picked up things I was naturally interested in.

And definitely school has been supportive and has brought new ideas, but it's so prescriptive

Right.

It's not it doesn't follow your natural interests.

It doesn't care if you already know something.

So that strictness, that rigidity within a space that I was already playing in

helped, but I I can't say for how much.

I'm not gonna stop.

I think I actually might do my PhD after my master's.

So I I see value in it and it also gives me peace of mind.

Like even for my kids

I didn't grow up with parents who were like, go to school, go to school.

They were more like how are you gonna make money?

For my kids, I think I will push school on them because it just provides a safety net.

just that idea that you have something that no one else can take away from you.

So I think that that's what education has provided me with.

It's provided me with a little bit more confidence and then more footing and in a field that we're in which

Things could get taken away in a second, right?

It's nice to have that assurance.

I don't know.

How do you feel about it for you?

I mean Yeah, yeah, I I totally get that.

I feel like I'm so thankful for my education.

Also,

I love my parents very dearly, but no one in my family had gone and done a university education before, so I was the first one.

So that was for them a big deal at the time.

And I already knew, similar to you, that I wanted to work with people.

That was

always what I knew I wanted to do.

I always had this passion for just being curious and understanding people's stories, even in high school and like asking my friends these like deep

life questions, like something that usually a 16-year-old's not maybe thinking about or asking, but I've always had that inclination.

And then going from there, I did some postgrad work and behavior.

And then I did

my master's degree in counseling psychology.

But I agree with you that the education is so important and I'm really thankful for it.

And I would definitely push my daughters to do it as well

But I think I've learned the most through actually talking to people and doing the actual work.

So being whether that's a clinician actually

hearing people's stories in therapy and being like, wow, okay, everyone's story is so unique and how everyone gets to where they are is so unique.

Or kids, like one of the behavior programs I took that was a postgrad program was so specific

It was like if you have a kid and they have this behavior, you do X.

And then if that doesn't work, then you do this.

And I found in my work with kids that that just approach doesn't work.

Right.

Every child is so unique.

And now I've heard I've run nurtured first now for, like I said, six and a half years.

So I've heard thousands and thousands of family stories.

And

I think that's really helped me see every kid as so unique.

And and so I can definitely relate to a lot of your your experience saying that I'm glad I have the credentials because I think it's really important.

And I think I learned a lot through school, especially being a clinician.

Do you think you need to have the educational background to be a public facing parental expert?

I think it's really important, yes.

I mean, I think there's a lot of parent experts who maybe don't have the education, but I would say that along with the education comes the clinical experience

And I think there's a lot of parenting pages out there that are amazing.

And so I don't want to bash anybody who hasn't had the clinical experience, but I do think it brings a different level

for the parenting space when you have actually worked with kids and you've worked with families and you have all of this broad range of experiences because

It's really not black and white and I think it can feel really black and white.

And I know that the regulations and what you have to do to get licensed is different in Canada than the states as well.

So I can't always speak to the

the American accounts because in Canada m with the license that I have it's like thousands of supervised clinical hours.

Like there's just so much work that goes into it.

But

It that's a good question.

That's one I think about a lot, but I do think it is important if you're gonna speak about parenting and be an expert in it to have that background.

Uh I don't know, what do you think?

You have probably follow lots of different parenting pages, so I'm curious what you think.

I think that whether or not the information is applicable, I think that the devotion and that curiosity does say something.

I think that I naturally take in parenting advice from tons of people.

Advice is the wrong term.

I like like to hear their experiences.

I like to weigh those experiences against my own and consider those experiences and um

But yeah, I think if I was going for for help or for like actual advice, like something a bit more formulaic, I I would look for that.

But it's interesting because that's something I've always noticed even into of being a parent online is

People are so passionate about this area because they've done it.

It's coming from a place of care and love.

Like, you know, if you just ran a marathon and a friend's about to run one, is this thing that you did that like was

hard and gruesome, but like glorious and fun and a once in a lifetime experience.

Like you like want to tell all these experiences and stories of that person, but like they have a completely different body than you and they're running a whole different course.

But

Because your experience was so profound, you just feel like really passionate about passing this information on.

So I think having more of a measured outlook, and like you said, even rejecting the notions of that course is helpful

Taking a course that was the wrong course that made you consider that like, oh, like being this prescriptive does not actually make applicable sense.

Even that aha is something really valuable.

Absolutely, yeah.

But I think that there there's pages for different reasons too.

There's some pages I followed just because

I really enjoy the person, the mom, let's say, on the parenting page.

I'm like, I I feel aligned with you.

I understand you.

And even though maybe you don't have the education, just you speaking about your lived experiences helps me

So I think that there's different pages, maybe, like you were saying, for different reasons that can be really supportive in the sex space and in the parenting space too.

So I'm curious for you.

I know when I was talking to my team about interviewing you, they were all like, oh, she's the girl from Too Hot to Handle.

And they were talking how they saw you on the show.

So how did that feel for you when you started to become more of this public figure, famous, people are recognizing you?

How does the messages that you grew up hearing about sex being bad or or these things being wrong

And now you're this public figure who talks about this full time, you're on these big shows.

How does that translate in your own mind?

It was so slow that it's not I don't know, I don't I feel like

I don't have like a strong answer to that question because I always describe myself as the person whom it's not like, oh my gosh, like I saw you at the bottom of the hill and then I went and had a sandwich and now you're at the top partying with like Leonardo DiCaprio.

It's like, oh no, I saw you at the bottom of the hill, and then I went and took a snack, and then you somehow slid even back even further.

And then I I went to university for four years and I came back and looked at you and like

you had made your way like one quarter up.

Like it just, I feel like my progress is so logically lined up with how much time I've been in this space and to almost to the point that I'm like, damn, how am I not further ahead?

But it's not like it's a positive thing.

I mean I think that in general I'm just happy to see that I feel more of a strong reaction towards the topic.

Right.

So if I reflect on my own progress, I'm like, oh, that doesn't really feel that like meteoritic.

Meteoritic?

What's the word for that?

But if I think about sex, like when I first started talking about sex, the orgasm gap was three to one.

Now it's two to one.

That's a very baseline stat to say like things are dramatically improved.

When I first started talking about sex, the whole conversation was around how to women orgasm.

We've moved way past that.

The common joke was like, where's the clitoris?

Now that's the stupidest thing in the world to me.

You're like, bitch right there.

Like, what are we talking about?

Why was this this thing when we were growing up of like

It's so confusing.

It's so hard to find.

Like it's really and truly it's external.

Like I see it.

So like have you looked at all?

Like that's as a parent, right?

When your kid is like, I can't find this

And then you walk into the room and it's like right there on the bed.

You're like, did you look at all?

So I think about that.

You know, people know about attachment styles, know about love language.

People can have these enhanced conversations around like their triggers and their

sexual breaks and accelerators.

I'm not talking about people in my field.

I'm talking about somebody that I saw at the grocery store.

I'm talking about a Gen Z, you know, who interacted with me on TikTok.

So I am marveled at that.

The pandemic definitely put intimacy in the microwave.

If people didn't care about it before, they cared about it then because you were with that person.

all the time.

So if you got away with okay, whatever I learned in sex ed is enough or I don't need to go to therapy until there's a major problem, if you got away with those mindsets

In 2020, you were not slipping by like that.

You had to really be manual and mindful about this space.

So I'm amazed at how much this space has grown because when I first started and I told people I talk about sex for a living, I might as well have told them

that I talk about the cracks and hardwood floors.

People were like, it's so obscure.

Like how do you find enough people who care about that?

You're like, how the fuck do you think you got here?

Like, what?

Like it was like that.

So that's what what really like blows me away.

Yeah.

I love that.

I totally get that too.

It's like I mean, even since yeah, I was in school to now I feel like the orgasm gap.

I feel like that was this mind-blowing thing and now it's like, okay, we're all talking about it.

I mean, and that's on Instagram too, and we're all talking about these things, which I feel like people like you have made that a normal conversation that people are having with their partners too

And I think I I think you're right.

2020 shook everybody up and now everyone's home with their families.

Yes.

I'm sure in the parenting space too, that would have exploded things big time.

Yes, it was definitely a shift we noticed as well in in twenty twenty in the parenting space.

And similar to what you were saying, for us it was the I used to talk a lot about spanking and how like people don't

Spank their kids or timeouts.

And I feel like a lot of these things became when I first started talking about them was mind-blowing for people, right?

Like, oh, there's a different way.

There's a different way to parent without punishment

And now that I've been doing it so long, similar to you, I see this shift.

And I love it for me as a clinician because it challenges me to keep learning and to keep growing and to keep giving

everybody new information that can be really, really helpful.

And I I wonder, do you feel the same way?

Like you you have to keep growing because people are they know more now too.

One thousand percent.

And I get sick of the same conversation sometimes.

And I know that you could be having it with multiple people and that

they could bring something more fresh to it because they may have the passion.

Like when I first discovered the clitoris, or when I first discovered, you know, the not just the clitoris, like where it is, but the fact that it's this wishbone and and the size of it.

And like

The the way that I could talk about that 10, 15, 20 years ago, is very different from how I would talk about it now.

So you should talk to the person who just discovered it and has that light.

and that beam in their eyes.

So I don't even want to be recycling the same knowledge over and over again.

So yeah, I definitely am and I'm always learning.

That's what's really great about this.

I've actually just gotten into the realm of sacred sexuality

I always apply everything just from like if it doesn't have like a logical benefit to me or I actually don't have real evidence that this is a thing, I'm I'm not gonna pick it up.

So there are parts of

sacredness or spirituality that, you know, I'm not gonna start buying sex toys that are crystals that I charge by the moon.

Just because I've I've put on bracelets before that are, you know, certain colors and certain stones.

I've really felt no like logical impact from that.

So there's

parts of it that I would invest myself in, there's other parts that I don't.

I think previously, because there were parts I didn't invest, I just wrote the whole thing off.

But after becoming a mom of a second kid, for sure for me, I definitely started to look at my body in a more sacred fashion.

I started to look at myself as a sexual being.

in a very different, more ethereal way.

So parts of those practices are now that I'm starting to dip my toes into and learn more.

So that's something really new for me that I'm excited to bring into the work that I do.

I love that

Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.

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Yeah, I I love being on this journey of continuing to learn more and shift the way that you work.

You mentioned having your second baby and I know a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are parents.

How did kind of moving from being this

this sexologist popular person who talks about their sex life.

Now you're a parent and you're going through pregnancies and you're going through breastfeeding and postpartum.

How did that impact you and impact the way you saw yourself?

You shared a little bit about it.

Yeah, it changed me in a big way.

I have this video uh that I filmed when I was pregnant and I was pregnant during the pandemic that was called like

why I didn't want to be a mom before.

But in essence, I watched her think back to that video a lot because there were so many assumptions that I made about what my life as a mom would be like

And it wasn't helpful that at the time people would be like, bitch, you're gonna change.

People were like, this is not gonna last.

You're going to change.

You're not gonna feel this way.

And I was like, but I will, I will.

And I was very like indignant about it

Looking back now, I'm like, oh my gosh, so much has changed, but not in a bad way.

And I'm actually grateful that it's like when you're swept up, right?

So a rush of water comes in.

And you're trying to hold on to all of your belongings.

And then people could be watching you saying like there's no point, like you're gonna lose it all to the water.

And they're gonna be

Correct for a large portion of that.

You're not going to be able to hold on to many of the things that you're trying to carry in your hand, but it's better than not even trying at all

So there were parts of myself, like my sexual self, the way that other people saw me, the way that I showed up, the way that I dressed or presented, that I was really like trying to hold on to.

And I lost a lot of that.

That's not bad.

Some of those things I just and it's not like um I just I replace them with other things.

With time with my kids, I replace them with with different things that are different, just not the same.

So I think I definitely, yeah, I don't have a clean answer to that other than it's not what I thought, but it's not as bad as some people would say.

And it's better in many areas and not as great in some areas.

And I'm okay with all of that.

When I look at the cost benefit

by a look of how I net it out in the end, I'm grateful for the changes that I went through.

And I also think the greatest thing of all, right, like this is what I do for a living.

This just provided so much more context for the work that I do and allowed me to broaden out who and how I talk.

So I think that I I may have gotten a little bit bored even from a career standpoint if I didn't have to go through all these changes.

It took a lot of examination.

But in the end if you stick to it with yourself and you don't try to hold on too tightly to what you were and try to embrace and let go

You know, because it can be really fun to be caught up and swept up in the water storm if you let yourself.

But yeah, find that fine balance between trying to hold on for dear life and

Trying to have the time of your life just with how much is coming at you at one time, I think that's the sweet spot that sometimes I figure out.

Now right now I have figured that out

When I first had my daughter, it was not something that I had figured out.

And I'm sure in a couple months I might feel differently.

So I also give myself that grace.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I visualize, I love uh the metaphors that you have too and and I would always say to the parents that I was working with, it's like someone's throwing

balls at you and like you can catch one and then you can catch the other one, but then there's only so many that you can catch and then the balls start dropping, right?

So then you have to decide, well what am I gonna hold on to and what am I gonna just drop on the floor

And I think that being a sexual person and being a parent, there's some balls you can hold on to and then maybe some that drop to the floor and some that you pick up later.

What were those pieces of yourself that you decided

I want to hold on to this.

Like when everything's being swept away and you're a new mom, what are the things that make Shan Shan that you're still holding on to?

I still have a lot of sex and even like the last time I put my husband and I were like, you know, tired.

It's the weekend.

The weekend always kind of like wipes you out because you're like every day is twelve hours of nonstop activity.

So we're watching a TV show, we're both so tired, and we're like too tired to have showered, which is TMI, right?

But then we had this short exchange between us that could be sexual, the short glimmer of like sensuality that passed between us.

And I just asked the question practically, should we have sex?

He's like, yes, the answer is always yes, we should have sex.

Okay.

So what am I trading off?

I'm not getting to shower and shave and put on matching bra and underwears and set the tone like

Me and my partner started off as like strictly sex buddies.

So there was something so beautiful about that because I we were so intentional about the sex that we were having.

So you're not really

emphasizing it.

No, that's what we did.

Like when I met my husband, I had just gotten out of that long-term toxic relationship, that long distance one.

So I was fully aware I was not ready for anything kind of emotional.

And I was like, I just want to have fun.

I want to apply the information I learned about sex

I want to do it with a great sexual partner and I want it to be easy and fun and I don't want to get caught up in them.

So every time he would come over, it was like lighting candles and preparing

preparing my body and trying different oils.

Like I was, it was such a delight.

And I loved the preparation.

I love that mindfulness.

I got this huge projector.

And I would li I was living in a studio apartment at the time and I would put it over our bed and then I would think about like what colors, what images.

And when my husband first met me, he's like, I thought for sure you were into psychedelics because

Your whole room, your whole setup was so like out of this world.

And I'm just not at all.

I don't even drink.

So I was like, yeah, like that was amazing.

And I'm like lighting up talking about it.

Is that anything close to my life right now?

No.

No, we're having sex in between a commercial break on Hulu after both of us are like not proud of how we climbed into bed, but we're just doing it because

We still want that connection.

We still want that piece.

Like that's the ball that we have convicted ourselves to holding into on our onto our hands.

I'm really proud of us for that.

And there have been times during my second pregnancy, I experienced like record breaking low libido, which I'm so glad to have had that.

Because that let me understand as somebody who's had high libido for their whole life, arguably, experiencing that level of loneliness was like, oh, I get it.

Like not only

Do I not have the drive?

The thought of it repulses me.

Like that just gave me so much more connectivity to my audience and community who has experienced, you know, HSDD or something similar.

Not to say that I always, you know, have sex with my partner and I always force myself, but if we have that moment, that little thing that's like, ooh, is that what I think it is?

I'll build on that.

And we both have uh devotion to build on that.

Yeah.

There's so many things that you said that I I really enjoy there.

But I think first off the spark, I think sometimes a lot of the parents that I would work with who really struggled to find that sexual piece of themselves back postpartum

which I personally know.

I have three kids, so I could really relate to you saying in your second pregnancy you just didn't have libido at all.

I remember feeling that way too and actually like wondering, is there something seriously wrong with me?

Like why can't I feel this way?

And then talking to other moms and a lot of them, my friends being like, Oh, I've been there too and and realizing that that maybe is a hormonal or

part of being sick and having other kids and and all of those things.

So yes, yes, yes.

The fact that you went through that I'm sure can really make you relatable and understand people who have gone through that in a different way.

And

and how actually difficult that can be like within your relationship too.

And then I love that you talk about the spark and that's something that

I think it can be so helpful for people to realize that when those little sparks happen, then okay, maybe that's the time to to lean into that and to see if if it's gonna go somewhere and maybe it's not.

And that's okay too.

But do you have any advice for the parent listening?

Because I know we have tons of parents listening who maybe feel like they've totally lost that side of themselves and maybe there's one little tip that you have for them

Yeah, it totally is something that might take clinical intervention, right?

If you don't ever if you didn't acknowledge if I think when we were growing up, it was the fireworks.

If I desired somebody or I desired my partner when we first met even, it was a grand display of fireworks that you couldn't ignore.

Like that's

It's the sound, it's the visual, it's the smell, all of it's in your face.

And then when you get older, you go through different periods of time in your life or you have different competing priorities.

It's not fireworks anymore, it is like a spark.

And it's so unnoticeable at times, like, did I just see that spark happen?

And then if you just continue to move on

you could forget that it even happened.

But saying I saw that spark and then having to look back and then going to inspect further and then trying to tend and make it grow.

It does take, I think when you have that even, you've got something that happens throughout the day.

Like there is, and I said this to my husband after our first kid, where I'm like

There needs to be foreplay all day long.

It can't just be that we are in this job that is so sexless by nature.

Like parenting is so

selfless and so sexless.

And I think that, you know, sex and self and selfishness really go beautifully together.

Like it's a place of indulgence, right?

So I'm not indulging anything all day long.

Like I'm

eating scraps off the floor when I get a chance.

I'm pooping with the baby in the room with me.

Like there's not a lot of indulgence going on.

If I'm not in that mindset all day long, expecting me to just to transfer over just like that to go from robotic

factory worker to porn star or to sexual goddess, you know, just like that just doesn't make sense.

So when I'm changing the diapers and I'm bent over, if you see that little spark,

Slap my ass, you know what I mean?

If I see you with spit up and you take your shirt off because a baby just vomited on it

And for a second, I'm like, oh, his body looks great.

I gotta say that out loud.

Like we have to be nurturing this all day long so that when we fall into bed and we have no energy left, we still have that remnants of fire that started in us.

The advice I would give is for people who have at least that little something.

If you don't experience anything at all, I think that could be something that you talk to a doctor about in the form of HSPD, which is hypoactive sexual desire disorder.

Or it could be something that in terms of your dynamic where you're not even given an opportunity to see your partner in that light at all just because there's resentment or other feelings or inequality or maybe they're not even present.

You can't even see their ass so you feel those feelings, right?

Like that's a big part of it too

You're gone to work all day, you're not communicating with me, you're not giving me moments of check-in.

Then when you come home, like I have to, you know, really coerce you into being active here.

Like you're not giving me chances to even feel that.

I think you gotta have at least something that's when you can build off of it.

Yeah, and I love how you say it can just be so little.

I remember saying and I can hear Scott, my husband's

in the background here kind of laughing too, but I remember we've been in this same position where I'm like, man, I'm covered in breast milk.

I'm disgusting.

I'm like like there's literally no part of me that feels like a sexual person.

So to just like switch your brain, like that's just not something that you're comfortable doing, right?

So I love that idea of your nurturing that throughout the day or throughout the week or whatever it is and being like, is there something little there?

I think that's really

an easy way for parents to to make a little shift.

And there's things that societally for men, parenting is sexy.

Societally we've been conditioned to think that.

Like a man who's with the kids is sexy.

But for men, mothering isn't sexy.

And maybe if it is, like that's conceived as something strange.

So if you see the mother of your children being a really great mom,

That may not be a turn on for you, but you have to be manual about that.

Even asking yourself when your brain registers, like, oh, that's nice, ask your genitals how they feel about it.

Like, oh, like, Volva, how do you feel about this moment?

Right?

Or, you know

penis how do you feel about this moment and that can feel strange because again like this is such an asexual activity by nature but engaging yourself all day long in these little moments and opportunities to feel desire for your partner

And doesn't mean I'm using the word sex here.

It could just be intimate desire, period, right?

Like I don't just want you because you're the only other person who can help me in this crazy amount of work.

I want you because you're desirable

Like I desire closeness with you.

So yeah, it doesn't have to net out to to sex, but it's just like a low-hanging fruit.

Why do you think that men I mean this is a whole other podcast possibly, so we can keep this part short, but

Why do you think men don't see women who are being motherly as sexy, but women see dads?

I mean, this is a huge question.

And I know it's true, women see dads as m sexy when they're being dads

What do you think that is about men who see mothers as just motherly and and not necessarily as sexy?

It just feels like societal conditioning to me.

Like what we're just, you know, grown up to see, you know, it's even the MILF thing, right?

Like you're sexy for a mom

And just the idea that you're not sexy once you are.

And maybe that some kind of Oedipus complex origins there where

Men have to disassociate themselves from their mother or even being viewed as mama's boys as negative.

And so like the idea of mother is just like not sexy or something you don't think about.

I don't want to get too like

heady into that.

But for whatever reason, societally, it's just that's it.

Like a mom being a mom is like nice.

It's expected.

One.

It's expected.

It could be nice.

It could be warm.

I'm trying to conjure up the images I even see like when I'm watching parenting videos, right?

When you see a mom with a baby, but when you see a dad with a baby, yeah, there definitely is a different tone, a different respect level and

Like a different noticing.

I I can't attribute that to anything other than societal conditioning.

Yeah, I think it makes sense.

I mean, we even laugh when my husband goes out.

I mean, all the praise that he gets if he's out with the three girls on his own, right?

It's like, oh my goodness

A dad out with three daughters, like what could be more attractive to to anyone, right?

So I totally get that.

That's why I was curious about it

Now, d just to wrap up, you have two kids, they see you doing this job.

What messages do you hope to give them about sex that maybe you didn't get or a lot of kids don't get?

How do you want them to see you and and to see sex and intimacy

I want for this to be a mix of math and art because I often can describe this conversation like math, right?

So it should be buildable knowledge.

Math doesn't start off at calculus.

You start off at arithmetic or even just identifying numbers, right?

So one plus one equals two.

So similarly right now my kids are three.

Well, one's about to be three and one is uh one year old.

Well the three year old can identify vulva.

She can identify the parts of her she can identify nipples, right?

So that's like numbers.

Like here's what numbers actually are.

And so I hope this conversation evolves over time.

But it's not math because it's not so fixed, right?

It's poetry because I have to be flexible and malleable to our dynamic, to her interests, to her needs.

to her curiosities.

So I want to continue to evolve the conversation and to help it grow and so that it's one day she wakes up and she's doing calculus and it's nothing for her just because

This has been a part of the fabric and culture of our of our family from the beginning, but maybe she doesn't want to do calculus.

Maybe she wants to do statistics, or

something else.

So I would like to be in tune enough to be like, okay, she's actually not interested in that.

And then that especially speaks to the obviously the LGBTQ community.

you know, her sexual needs, the messages that she requires could be very different depending on how she identifies.

So I do want to be poetic in that where

I'm coming at this from a place of feeling, not a place of omnipotence.

Like mommy knows all.

Mommy will tell you what to do.

Mommy will tell you what to learn next.

I do hope that I'm able to maintain that because that's not something that I had growing up

I love that.

I think the words that you just said in tune.

I think that's what I want for my daughters too.

I just want to be in tune with whatever it is that they

wanna bring to me.

I don't wanna shut them down or make them feel bad or make them feel like they can't talk to me about something.

I just think the word in tune in in terms of everything parenting is just so

wise and so profound for our kids and and I love that and I love that we can end on that note.

Thank you so much, Shan, for coming.

This was an amazing conversation.

I just have appreciated you for so so long and it's been amazing to get to talk to you today.

Where can people find you if they want to find some more information on sex or follow your Insta page?

You have a podcast that's called Lovers and Friends, and it's a topic-based podcast.

you can actually scroll through it like you would a Google search and then see what episode title interests you and that's what the episode's gonna be about.

I do have a couple of parenting and sex and intimacy videos on there.

I have tons of really great conversations with my husband, which I think are helpful

for people to see modeled and so yeah that would be a great place to go.

Awesome.

Thank you so much.

So happy that you came on today.

Thank you for having me.

Let's head over to coffee time we're

Scott and I share some of our reflections from this amazing conversation.

So in the last part of the conversation, Shannon and I were talking about having sex postpartum.

Okay.

And we were talking about how difficult

it can be to feel the desire to have sex when you have little children at home, you feel touched out.

I was saying like there's times I'm like covered in breast milk, like when I was like just postpartum, right?

And I'm like literally I'm crunchy from it.

Like my body is so gross.

And that's just the last thing on your mind.

And so we are talking about how can someone get those pieces of themselves back postpartum

And then Shan and I also had a really interesting conversation that I wanted to bring up again to you, Scott, because I felt like we could have gone really like a lot deeper in it

We were talking about how men, like if you go out in public with the three girls, it's like, oh my goodness, like you have you have women coming up to you, you have people talking to you, looking at you.

because you're like this man, this dad out there with three kids.

He's so involved.

Like what an incredible father.

He's out with his kids.

Whereas I go out with the three kids and it's like

Oh, you must have your hands full.

I mean I do get those comments too.

But yeah, it's more often like I remember being in a bookstore and

being with I think it was the two older girls and like I had so many women come up to me and comment and like

more than it never happens otherwise, or very rarely.

Yeah.

But yeah, they're coming up to me and maybe they're not flirting.

But it's definitely like all of a sudden women come up to me and are commenting and like

saying all these things and recognizing, wow, you're what a good dad for hanging out with these two girls and going to the bookstore with them and looking at books with them and reading to them.

Right.

Versus have you ever experienced that?

I feel like you do those those things more than I do and you

still don't receive those kinds of comments.

Oh no.

I never get that kind of comment if I'm out with the kids.

It's always like, oh wow, yeah, you must have your hands full.

Like you've got a lot going on, Mama.

And like

I mean, yes, first of all, I do have my hands full.

But it it's different.

And yeah, Shannon and I talked a little bit about those different messages and then saying how mom's like

it can be hard for us to feel like a sexual person again postpartum.

And I know that that's definitely something that a lot of the moms I've worked with have felt.

they kind of feel like they lose that part of themselves.

And I I think a difference between men and women, especially in that postpartum season, is how like truly physical motherhood is when you're a brand new mom

Yeah for I mean you have a dinner plate sized wound inside of you, right?

So Yeah, like I mean TMI.

But when the placenta comes out, like they showed us with a couple of our kids, they showed us what it looked like.

And it's

humongous.

Yeah.

You start postpartum off with this huge wound in your body.

Never mind the whole experience of giving birth, which can be completely traumatic and very difficult to have your sex drive back, especially

if you've had a traumatic birth experience.

And then on top of that, if you're breastfeeding or not, like there's milk coming out, there's hormones, you're healing, like

There's so much stuff going on.

Yeah, there's a lot of changes in your body that are happening.

And I remember that being like really difficult because then you're thinking to yourself, like I am basically my body is embodying motherhood right now.

Like that's that's what my body is doing.

And so that sexual person that maybe used to be there, or even just that person who you were before you had a baby, it can feel really lost for a long time.

Like I guess when does that become a problem though?

Because I feel like after you had all three girls it's not like I'm pressuring you.

I'm basically like you

Take your time.

I'm not gonna pressure you into doing something after I've seen what you went through.

Yeah.

But is that because women are feeling that they're pressured into like why why is this a a challenge?

I guess for women.

Is it because they feel like that it may never be something they want to do again or they feel like they're yeah, being pressured into doing it way earlier than they want to?

I think there's a few layers.

I think

In some relationships there can feel like this pressure and if being sexual together was like a very big part of your relationship, again, like every relationship is different, but if that was a huge part of your relationship before you had a baby

then I think it can be really difficult after you've had a baby because all of a sudden you don't have that same drive, but your partner does.

Like they go back to their normal life, right?

And you are still yourself

So I think that can be really hard, especially for a lot of the moms that I've worked with, like we've had to talk a lot about that.

I think there's a piece that

can feel like rejection to the partner.

Right.

So let's say you're you're coming on to me, you're like trying to get something going.

And every single time I'm like, no, no, no, no.

But you're not understanding like how I'm feeling or you're not able to get curious about why that's so difficult for me.

then your defenses are gonna come up and you're like, I'm being rejected, you know, you're rejecting me as a person and instead of understanding that, oh no, my partner's going through all of these things

When she says no to me, it actually has nothing to do with her not finding me attractive or her not enjoying my company.

It has everything to do with like all these internal things she's going through.

So I think that can be a real struggle in relationship.

And then I think one of the biggest things for a woman of why it's hard to lose that sex drive and lose that part of yourself is it's truly that.

It feels like you've lost a piece of who you are

Like y you used to be this person who was interested in having sex and maybe was a sexual being and now you are not.

So it actually feels like

a grief maybe of like I've lost this piece of myself and like you said I don't know when I'm gonna get it back and I think that can be very difficult for moms.

It's like I've lost myself to that and now motherhood feels all consuming and I don't know where this previous version of me is.

Fair enough.

I can see all of those reasons.

Yeah, I think there's there's a lot going on there.

Is there a solution to all of those?

Yeah, well it's gonna move into solutions, so

that we don't just stick in the heart, but I honestly think of all the things that I talk to new moms about in my practice as well, like this comes up so so often.

And every mom is like, wait, I'm not the only mom who feels that way.

Like it feels so lonely and isolating and I feel like I'm the worst partner and

So I I think it's really important to name that.

One of the things that Shannon and I talked about that can be helpful is finding what she calls sparks

So Shan was saying that when you first get into a relationship, maybe it feels like fireworks, like every time you're you want to kiss your partner, you want to be alone together, all of that.

And then as time goes on and you have babies and things change, like you need to find the sparks.

So like a little moment when you're like, oh, I might be interested in this.

and move with the spark and allow yourself to just see where that goes.

Any parent who's listening to

this podcast and who feels like, man, A, I was raised with really shameful messages about sex.

So dang, I have a lot of work to do on myself to unpack where those messages came from.

I think a really good starting point is just asking yourself, okay

What messages was I given when I was a child about sex, whether it's from your parents, from your school, from other people, and what messages would I want to give to my own children?

And remembering that you can actually change the story for yourself and for your own children.

And how you talk about sex with your own kids is going to be based on your values.

what you want your family to believe about sex, which might look different family to family.

So really reflecting on those values and deciding what you want to teach to your kids.

And then second, I think for any postpartum parents listening to this

reminding yourself that A, if it's been so long and you still feel like you don't have a sex drive and it's not coming back, see your doctor.

Like there are medical reasons why that can happen and you shouldn't have to feel like

you're alone in that and that you're never gonna get that sex drive back and be see if you can find those little sparks and give yourself a lot of grace and know that it's gonna take some time.

And instead of seeing it as losing yourself, I like to see it as rediscovering yourself and see if you can find yourself back slowly but surely.

Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's

episode.

We are glad that you are here.

If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and a review.

Scott and I actually sit down together and read them all.

A five-star rating helps us share our podcast and get these important messages out there.

Thank you so much for listening and we can't wait to talk to you again next time.

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