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CJ & The Duke talk about how easy it is to lose sight of the big picture. We talk about "the point" of ServiceNow deployments, how it gets lost, who maintains it, and more.
Authentic, Authoritative, Unapologetic ServiceNow commentary by Cory "CJ" Wesley and Robert "The Duke" Fedoruk
[00:00:00] Duke: This episode is brought to you by clear sky Corey. You know what I love? Oh, clear sky.
[00:00:05] CJ: What do you love about clear sky?
[00:00:07] Duke: Man I've said it once and I'll say it again. I just love that it's all packaged on the I love this all packaged on the service now platform,
[00:00:15] CJ: Absolutely.
[00:00:17] Duke: because it's not like ID management, IDW governance, and automation is a new thing. Right. There's apps out there that do it and yeah, they're mature, but.
Part of the cost of maturing along the way is that they're strapped to all their old tech debt, and their old interfaces and all that stuff. And you move that into service. Now you can basically take those decades of process knowledge and put it onto a technology where you're starting fresh.
Essentially. There's no tech debt. There's no like, oh, this is the way we did it the old way or whatever. , and so I love the fact that it solves a super, super legit problem, but it does it in a new, fresh way.
[00:00:53] CJ: That's awesome. You know, I'm, I'm very fun of apps that build natively on the service. Now platform, I feel like this where all your data is, that's what you, get all the, benefits of the platform, uh, once you're, when you're building their natively. So yeah, absolutely.
[00:01:05] Duke: So if you're at all interested in ID governance and automation or ID management, give our sponsor clear sky a shot, check them out. Their link is going to be the description below. All right, Corey, what are we talking about?
[00:01:16] CJ: All right, dude. Today we're talking about what the heck
is the point of it.
[00:01:21] Duke: good one where this question come from.
[00:01:23] CJ: really what it comes down to is trying to identify what are the high value parts of service now and how they impact the work experience and how you get all of the, how you can squeeze all the value out of it, right? Like how you walk up and down the stairs. and take all this information, all of these, all these bits and pieces and put it together into a cohesive part.
That's going to deliver, deliver a ton of value for your organization or something.
[00:01:49] Duke: man. You ever been on an implementation where it's. Everybody's on some kind of autopilot, like you're sitting in the meetings and everybody everybody's mindful in the moment. But they're not mindful of some bigger picture and it feels sometimes like you're going through the motions.
[00:02:04] CJ: Yeah. Yeah. Bigger picture is often only really accounted for during the project manager during the pre-work. Right.
It's like, so during the pre-game, when you're building out like this. Work And all that kind of stuff. That's kind of when you're thinking about the global architecture of the project, but when you can start to get into those, individual meetings, like I just felt like, you do lose sight of the bigger.
[00:02:25] Duke: , we talk about best practices and all that stuff, and I think even then you can get so caught up in, oh, we've done, a couple of dozen of these things and. Even though I'm talking mindfully, I am on some kind of autopilot, but from the customer perspective and approve this, you can go back and look at our Deb Quintin episode, right.
Where she was like, Hey, listen folks. Everything's about epic right now. Like my entire existence revolves around, how do I make epic better? And it's like, yeah, we'll just parking lot that, cause we have our meeting about notification, best practices. It's like,
[00:02:58] CJ: Yeah.
[00:02:59] Duke: who cares? What the
[00:03:00] CJ: Like you weren't listening. Oh dude. So I'm going to draw a tangent here. This is a huge tangent, but I mean, I was watching an episode yesterday with the wife of a house hunters, right. This is completely not service now related, but it's related to the, topic at hand. And so the, um, the woman on the, episode was looking to buy a house you happen to be here in Chicago.
Uh, she's looking to buy a house and she had a realtor and then her best friend who was helping write, she told that she gave them a concrete set. attributes that she wanted to see and the condo that she was looking for, right. The top of the list was it needs to have. And if anyone knows what character means, when you talking about buying a house, it means it's gotta be kind of old. And so what proceeded to happen throughout this entire episode is that they solve three places. If you're familiar with house owners, right? The first one was the place that she chose, that she told her realtor, we need to go see this place. I met her criteria. Right. He had character, it was big. Another thing was security.
It may, it had built insecurity. Doorman was completely, you know, um, uh, staff building, so on and so forth. The other two places fit the requirements of the people who were taking her shopping. So the second one was much more in line with her best friend's wishlist. And the third one was much more in line with the agents wishlist.
Right. Nobody was listening to what. And so just bringing us back around and service now and, and the dev Quentin episode, right? It's like when w when you, when your customer tells you that this is what I want. Fricking listen to him because she ended up buying house number one, which is the one, which is the only one that was on the episode that actually met the things on our wishlist.
And if your customer, if your, customer that your client right.
is telling you these are the things that I want and you're selling them notifications. They won't be your customer much longer.
[00:04:48] Duke: You got to realize that the customer's anteing up a significant chunk of change. And so somebody signed off on like year or years worth of full-time salary to get this project on. . And it's like, they could have hired somebody else to do a whole bunch of other stuff. But instead they bought , this application, not only the license fees.
. But they also bought services to get this deployed. It's a lot of them.
[00:05:16] CJ: Absolutely.
[00:05:17] Duke: Y like somebody like sign that and with a sense of relief, , whew, that's a lot of money, but, but I'm going to get something in return for it. And how often do you, from top to bottom of the project, just mindfully meditate on what that, why might be?
So I think this episode, man, we're five minutes in, we're still to see the episodes about. What is the point of the deployment? And you can't say the point of deploying ITSMs to get ITSMs deployed? No.
[00:05:52] CJ: Yeah, No.
The thing you can't use , the definition to define the word right.
[00:05:57] Duke: right. That's right. So what we're going to do is probably we're going to probably try a whole bunch of old ground here, but again, if you're just coming up and you're, you haven't done a lot of implementation, so you want to make sure your implementations are, the kind of ones you read about then keep these points in mind.
Um, so I'll lead off and it's the simplest one, like we're talking about visibility. Half the time when you're coming into the, well, maybe a little bit less than half, but you're coming into these implementations. And the problem is this stuff is sitting in email or Excel or something else. So getting it visible is priority one, right?
If nothing, if, you get nothing else, at least the work is visible. we can solve all their problems later, but getting it visible is step one to doing any kind of analysis onto it. But, and there's, we're going to pass it off to you, Corey. We can get visibility by putting it in sticky notes, as long as we agree on the right sticky note pile.
[00:06:48] CJ: .
true.
[00:06:49] Duke: So what beyond visibility is the point?
[00:06:53] CJ: for me then I'd take it to the step to the next step would be, , decision. . And this is a bit out of order probably than what we had jotted down in the notes, but I felt like decision-making comes directly after visibility, right? Because once what we're looking at is visible, then we can actually make a decision on it.
? Like we can use, we can actually come to bear and say, okay, this is, something we can do. This is something we won't do, whatever. Right. Whatever decision we need to make is, but we can't do that until we have visibility first until we know what the problem is.
[00:07:22] Duke: Yeah. , I kind of agree with you and I almost put like the first, maturity level of decision-making is prioritization. So like when I'm describing service now to people. aren't interested in becoming service now, resources, or, wondering, why should we buy service now?
I first talk about how work sucks and work sucks in a whole, in a whole bunch of different ways. But the first way it sucks is where do I put it? I'm a new guy. Well, I have HR questions. Oh, go speak to Diane. I have questions about my job. Go speak to your manager. I have questions about this, that I'm relying on this, tribal knowledge of where to go, Or some generic mailbox who I don't know or understand. I'm just always behind the eight ball about how do I get, how do I consume the work? So that's.
[00:08:10] CJ: Right.
[00:08:11] Duke: Totally went on a tangent here, but it's still, part of the point. Isn't it like work sucks. it's hard to initiate. Oh, here's where I was going with this.
But once we solve the problem of work initiation, which is one of the points of service now, and you can go back to our catalyst episode, if you don't believe us, um, is that okay? We've got it visible. And the problem is we've got a thousand of these freaking things. So, what do we do next? Well, the point is figuring out the next most important thing to do, There's your decision-making right there. What is the next most important thing to do?
[00:08:48] CJ: so that's the thing about it, duke, right? so when you take this back, you know, you're looking at a situation where you need visibility. You need to understand what the problem is. And so the only way to do?
that right, is to put it all out in front of you so you can actually see it.
And then from there, we start talking about like, we need to make a decision, but even when you start making a decision that might like might be step two, but there's even things inside of the decision, right. That, that need to take place prioritization. For example, you know, quantifying the, uh, the, value of the.
Right. Whether or not, or the value to the business organization? Well, they're not, you know, you can get by without making this decision for three months or three days, only three minutes, right? Like there, there are those things that, , the service now does very well in terms of putting this stuff in front of you and giving you the tools in order , to make this call.
And then from there, like, so let's assume now you've got everything. As assume now that you are now making decisions, right? Like you're going in and you're clicking buttons, accept, reject, you know, you're moving things around on your board so that you're making the decisions in the right order and put in the, things that can wait towards the back and things that can't wait towards the front.
Like, you've got a bit of a, of a process that, you know, has organically, uh, emerged from this, or what are you doing now? what's the next step? Well, personally, I think, you need to start thinking about automation, right? Because you probably have more decisions to make. Then you have bandwidth to do at the time, the decision is, due.
what's typically the outcome of that situation is that things start to bunch up. They start to get behind, or you start to take less time on a decision than is necessary to ensure that you're making the right, the right. when you end up in that situation right now, you need to start thinking about, okay, so what can we automate?
What can we get off of our plate? Can we relegate to a machine to do,
[00:10:40] Duke: Mm.
[00:10:40] CJ: you know, versus the things that require people to do? And this is one of the big things I think. And, one of the biggest untapped values, , on a service desk, right. What, tasks on that service desk can be automated can be done better by a machine versus what tasks requires a person.
And so what often happens you'll see is that health help desk, some outsourced, typically overseas, and that removes all of the value, creating possibilities from the help desk. That's wrong. And what you really want to do is you want to remove the things that don't create value, obviously from the help desk, abstract those to the machines and let them let the, help us do the things that do create value for your team internally, focus on those things where you think that.
[00:11:29] Duke: Man. There's a lot in there. Um,
[00:11:32] CJ: I kind of hit you with a, with a bit of a, a bit of a rant
[00:11:35] Duke: like outsourcing in there and, um, gosh, well, I mean, no, that's, that's the case of, for sure. If we just boil that up to automation, like that is the point that, I mean, or it's, it's, it's a maturity level. That is part of the point of doing this in the first place. Like I should have stuff that's easier to do.
Now than before I paid six figures to get this thing implemented. And we always think of this in terms of, you know, what I think where I want to take this is before I want to start reading. probing on automation because there's going to be stuff that's, that's obvious, right. Automate these workflows for catalog items.
Right. But before I start probing other types of like non catalog automation, I think part of the point is performance management. But before, before automation for a very specific reason, right.
[00:12:33] CJ: Okay,
[00:12:35] Duke: And I've heard I've done this rant like a dozen times already, but like process isn't natural. Right? The, protest is lots of highly ideologically aligned people and they believe the same thing.
They believe them passionately, but you can't get them to do anything. Right. You can't get them to like March in the same direction. The same thing. It's just, the only thing you get is everybody's here versus a marching band where it's like the guy standing next to me could be somebody that you can't stand, can't stand and he's playing a different instrument in your ear.
And yet you're all playing the same song and marching and beat and all that kind of stuff. And the different serious process. But like, why am I investing energy into the process? Because I have to know processes just manifests on its own. That's the lesson here. Right. But, if I'm going to, pour energy into sustaining a process, what am I trying to get out of it in a marching band?
It's marching in time playing your instrument, right? Playing the same song with repeat. So that was a long, there was a long kind of metaphor to set it up, but it is the same really holds true to all the processes that we, do. And when was the last time you sat with your implementer or your customer and said, Hey, listen, what are you really trying to do in your change management?
What are you really trying to do in your incident management? What is really the point of this custom app that you're doing? Because that informs your performance management. If you tell me that your customers hate you, hate you because it takes you three days to respond on average. Well, there's your marching orders for your performance.
We gotta get our response time to less than this threshold.
[00:14:29] CJ: Yeah, no, I'm with you on that. Right. So how I typically view this. So what is your north star for this implementing? Right. It's like we alluded to earlier said earlier in the, in the past, when we talked about the dev, uh, the dev episode, right. Where it's epic, only thing I care about is epic.
We got to get epic. That's the north star for that implementation. Right. And you should always have that north star for any implementation that you start on it. Right? So if the only way that you can ensure that you're going to get to the end of it, having achieved your goals, and like you said, duke.
You know, you get a protest, everybody shows up, nobody's kind of doing anything that there's no, there's no playbook. There's no script. Right. Nobody's folks to say, okay, we're marching on city hall and everybody's making their way there, you know? And that's, great. That's but that's, that's the best you're going to get.
But when you orchestrate this thing, when you actually have like a band and they've been practicing and everyone has their marching orders and they know what to do and what notes to play, all of a sudden you get something that's beautiful. You get something that, you can tell was choreographed that people put time and effort in and you get something that's a lot more valuable to you, And that's the outcome, Right, The outcome is produced.
[00:15:40] Duke: but it's, but before you get that outcome, like you don't, nobody paid, like it's not transactional. You know what I mean? Like nobody said, , if I went to just a bunch of, like, I pick 50 random high schoolers from across the Chicago area, even if I put down $50 million for them to split, you know, what.
[00:16:02] CJ: Yeah.
[00:16:03] Duke: $50 million to split. They will not be coming marching band tomorrow. They will not. There's no amount of money in the universe that can, that can substitute for. We understand what the outcomes are and we're measuring so that we progress towards the outcome.
[00:16:22] CJ: Yeah.
[00:16:23] Duke: So in whatever you're doing, if you're wondering , what is the point?
The point is to get to the outcomes we want after, after we've made it visible. Now we have to figure out what things like, why are we doing this in the first place?
[00:16:39] CJ: Yeah. I mean that's And that's a great point, right?
[00:16:43] Duke: And then we go to your automation, right? Where we say, okay, now we know that the response time. Are awful. Well, could we automate the response times that are instantaneous? Could we, or, or if that's not the case, could it, we could we at least, , auto route the task somehow. So it gets to a human being fast, or, fill in the blank with whatever feature.
The point is the features and the automations are contextualized in the perform.
[00:17:15] CJ: Yeah. And to illustrate, right? The, flexibility of this framework, . To make that decision, you still need decision-making right. So the decision-making process inside of service now lends itself to create to put you on the, on the right path for automation, because you need to know.
if your, um, reply time is too long, if it's, three days versus three minutes, right? Like those are decisions, right. That, that you need to make alone along the way that you're going to be informed by, , by data.
[00:17:42] Duke: Yeah. And it's, passing, like it's passing a moral judgment on where you're at too, right? I just remember, when I was first starting my career everybody's reporting requests was like, get me this by category. Get me this by priority as if that would manifest. Uh, way to get better, but they already knew that getting better was reducing the time to resolution, reducing the time to respond, reducing the number of bounces between teams, but because they never thought about mindfully, like here's the outcomes that our data has to help us get.
Man are we doing a Nutter outcomes episode?
[00:18:22] CJ: Yeah,
[00:18:23] Duke: I'm just like, I'm stuck on it.
[00:18:25] CJ: Yeah, it was just starting to think about that. Right. It was like we were focusing a lot here on, on outcomes. And, and while I think our outcomes drive this process, I think the process so is so much more of the point than, than the outcomes. , and I say that because you can't get to the outcomes without a good process, like I've, I've worked with a dozen dozens of these things at this point, right? yeah.
I can tell you the big difference between a successful project and a failure and a failing project is project management. And the big difference driver in these situations is because the project management creates a process for everyone. We all sit down and, we've been doing this for a bit, so we know what the outcome, should be.
We talk about that. We know what our clients, I mean, we're talking about duke and I talking about that right now in this, on this podcast. Right. So we definitely bring it up with our clients and in particular. , but unless , the process is aligned with getting to the outcomes, you're still just screaming into. so the, ultimately in my opinion, like what the Frick is the point, the point is the process. The point is all of these various pieces of the process that come together, like Vultron and give you that outcome that you want. Right? Because that's the, the outcome is the goal.
That's what the business wants. The business wants to know, Hey, you know, we're doing an. No project, what are we getting out of it? Well, you're going to get decreased, , response times, you're going to get increased customer satisfaction. You're going to get, , more efficiency with your technicians.
Okay, great. There's three outcomes that we can hang our hat on right now. How do we build that? How do we make the system do that? Well, the system is going to do that because we're going to add some automation, right? The system is going to do that because we're going to put in some decision-making right.
The, the, uh, the system's going to do that because we're going to do performance. Right. These are the things that align, you know, along the way they create the process that drives the outcome. I'm not sure where I want the call go with that from there.
[00:20:27] Duke: Yeah, it's like, it's funny. This episode, I feel like we're treading so much old ground, but there's a reason for that. And it's because this is a big problem. I guess what I want for this episode is that people who are new to the game, See it as more than just like I got to implement ITSs or I took the course, therefore I know how to implement ITSs or I know what the component pieces are there for a quote unquote, no ITSMs or ITBM or discovery.
What have you, and no, that's not the point knowing the tool. Isn't the point deploying it? Isn't the point? I mean, in abstract, it isn't
[00:21:11] CJ: No. You're right.
[00:21:12] Duke: Like, what did we just make visible? Why are we bothering to make it visible? How do we measure making that better? Right. And then the automation is the component that, that is the remediation, right?
This takes way too long. Which parts do we automate? Great value.
[00:21:31] CJ: . That's the thing, right? It's knowing the tool deployed it syllables. Aren't the point, right? Like at the, at the end of the day, right? The, you don't get trained up on. You know, any, anyone who's worth their salt in this ecosystem, you know, we'll at some point be able to do those things,
[00:21:47] Duke: Yeah.
[00:21:48] CJ: but it's about more than that.
recognizing the value of the project that you're working on and being able to deliver that, you know, recognizing the individual pieces of this thing and putting them all together like a puzzle, right? It is about those soft things. and maybe I won't say that soft people skills in this situation, but, soft business understanding.
that isn't often taught in a book. Right. And I, and I think that's, part of it, right? Like that's, that's, I think that's where, what we're trying to emphasize here, right. Is that there's so much more to, to service now and so much more to delivering for your clients. Right.
Then just doing the thing in the. Right. Just, . Click configure business rule. There's more to it than that. Right. There's you got, because here's a, here's a real world example. Right? Like I built something for a client once. It was really cool. It was really technical. I building cold rice script includes all that kind of good shit.
And it was great. Right. Let me tell you, I stood, stood back and looked at this thing and I was like, man, I called it the crap out of that. Right. And then, , I, I showed it off to my client, you know, a demo of how it worked. They're like, oh, this is great. And then, so let's how does it work? Right. Oh. And so I walked them through the code and how does it work?
And, you know, they were silent, at the end of that, walk through, it was like, we can't maintain this. We don't have anybody with this level of skill. Right. I was so focused on, delivering, using the tool to do the thing that I was in. I didn't think about the fact that I already knew that they didn't have anybody on staff who can maintain that.
COVID. Right. And, and a lot of what I did, I could have, I could have abstracted to condition builders and, and, uh, data tables and things of that nature. . But, you know, I, I didn't, I, you know, by the time I delivered the solution, it was right, because they couldn't maintain it. I had to come take a step back, figure out what their need was.
Right. Like, figure out what was the point for them. And the point for them was not only to get, what was being driven by this code, but also be able to maintain it. Yeah.
Right. So you don't have to just take, I just had to take a step back and realign. And so , what we feel like, and I think, , duke and I have shared the same posture on this, right.
Is to always be making sure that you're aligning your solution with your client's needs. And I think if you do that, you can stay on point and you can, you can really kind of figure out what the point is.
[00:24:01] Duke: Yeah. I think the complication I'd throw in there is that the customer doesn't always know the point,
[00:24:06] CJ: Uh,
[00:24:07] Duke: There's this idea that the person who signed the paperwork get this implementation done is not the same person who you're dealing with. Day-to-day. And they might, those two people might not align.
[00:24:18] CJ: That's true. Yeah.
[00:24:19] Duke: , I worked at this hospital once and I was like a standard architect until they could find a full-time person and the guy who quote unquote owned service now, like from a financial perspective, He's just , I need to show that the money we pour into this has value.
. And so the point to him wasn't even like, gosh, does I TSM? Do I TSM? ? No, he just like inputs went in there better be more on the output. So right. I put exactly five units in. I should be getting 15 units in return. Right. It's almost like an investors kind of where the hell was I going with this?
but then he's like, so, we got to get ITPM deployed right now, but yeah, sorry. I totally lost the ball on that one, but you know what I mean? You know what I mean? Like it's there from his perspective, it was like, I don't care units in has to be less than units out. And then all along the way, right down to the admin that you're working.
They have different ideas about what the point is. And it's like the person I were closest with day to day, who wasn't thinking about, what's the point who is very like feature function, trade-off person, to them, the point was, they asked for it this way we should deploy it that way.
[00:25:35] CJ: So yeah. Yeah, it feels
[00:25:38] Duke: So it's like sometimes you gotta be the guide back to the.
[00:25:41] CJ: Right.
[00:25:42] Duke: Do we both agree that, ITBM is here to help us control cost schedule whatever. Yes, we agree. Okay. And do we also agree that, out of box is better than, you know what I mean? Just go down the list, but sometimes you've got to guide them back to the point they don't all, they're not the, they're not always the arbiter of the point, if that makes any sense.
[00:26:04] CJ: No, it definitely does. I mean, we've been in this situation before where a client is boss something. They're not entirely certain what they bought, the scope of work. Does it entirely mesh what they feel like they be getting. And sometimes, going through that process is to get this, to figure out what the point is, right.
Sometimes you're telling them what they bought and what they want. Right. And, then you gotta deliver it. And that might be different than what they thought they went in there. I mean that, typically, you know, it's funny that typically comes into sharp relief when, after the first demo, right?
Like you've started a project, you get the client in there in the room after the first, sprint with something that's visible to show. And Yeah.
everyone's sitting around a conference table or in this case, the zoom session and, and you're, you're doing a demo and then you get an, any, any, any questions, right?
And anytime you say any questions in there, silence, that's a problem.
[00:26:58] Duke: Yeah.
[00:26:59] CJ: You know, they've just spent a lot of money on this thing and, you know, and they spent a lot of money on you and you've just given them a demo of what they bought. And there's silence and you're like, oh, and so now this is where you gotta coax from them.
Like, you know, what was wrong? Because now if something's obviously Robin, you know, his human nature to not necessarily be confrontational. So what they typically want to do is to leave that meeting, come back with and with a follow-up email and tell you about all the things that, were horrible.
You should, you should try to avoid that process and try to get it all out. Right. Okay. So if you get nothing but silence, stop and go around the table. Hey person a tell me what you thought of this. What, what was don't tell me what was good about it. Tell me what you felt like was wrong about it. Right?
And go around the table and go to every, single person. Tell me what was wrong about this thing. It actually, as you get, as you make it okay, for people to tell you where you screwed up, then they'll start to tell you. And this is on a tangent. I felt like a little bit, but I
[00:27:56] Duke: don't think it is at all. I think it's bang on point as a matter of fact, putting my quieter robot here, going to sing along with you in a second.
this is how I structure my ITBM deployments. And the unfortunate thing is that thirds of my ITBM deployments have been like let's take a second shot at this because our first shot was so horrifically failed. , for me to figure out what the point is means that I do like a week long.
[00:28:26] CJ: Okay.
[00:28:26] Duke: It's shocking to me in the ITBM space. How many times it's like the point is to, deploy project the way we think it should be deployed because we've done this three old times
[00:28:37] CJ: Yeah. Right.
[00:28:39] Duke: but these, these companies are just so frustrated because they, they haven't been listened to, they've been told here's how you deploy ITBM and blah, blah, blah. But if you sit with an organization, especially with ITBM and just demo it over the course of like multiple long sessions, then the point manifests itself because you'll come across stuff where they're like, yeah, that's normal.
We do that too. We just do it in different way. Other times you're like, holy cow, that's going to save us so much time.
[00:29:06] CJ: Exactly
[00:29:07] Duke: much time and then you'll get to the ones where it's like, if they're, if they're silent or they're uncomfortably shifting in their seats, or if they look solid, right.
Then, you know, you're in the problem areas like, okay, this is not jelling with the customer.
[00:29:20] CJ: right.
[00:29:21] Duke: And, it's the, those are the things that you lean into. but back to that whole idea, like sometimes to the point. Oh, where am I going with this? Cory?
[00:29:31] CJ: Sometimes the
[00:29:32] Duke: the organization's point is like, Hey, this version of Microsoft project server is like 30 years old and we've got to get the hell off of it because that a windows NT server that is hosted on is just going to like crumble into dust someday.
And so that's the point GTF. Oh, this tool, but then. You have to still deploy something that is valuable to the stakeholder. Right? And so I think sometimes getting to that point, like, what is, what is the point of deploying ITBM to you beyond just let's get off this crumbling stone-age server.
[00:30:07] CJ: exactly.
[00:30:09] Duke: And sometimes you can't get that done unless you have a collaborative look, see, feel of the tool and not just come in here.
I'm 26 years old. I've done this three times. Let me tell you how to run a PMO. Somebody who's old enough to be my mom or dad. Totally. Alright. Ages. Sorry. Guilty. Put me in jail. I don't care.
[00:30:38] CJ: Bunch of bunch of greater point helmets, right? Like the greater point is sometimes you are called Dan because. , there's some budget to be burned or there is a crumbling NT server in a closet somewhere that is going to die at any moment. And they got to get off of it. Editor's note here I am a licensed MCSC and , if you do have any old NT servers, I'm your guy.
, anyway, but sometimes you do have those situations, . And they're the master point, right at the top level was get off of this infrastructure. But as you start to walk down a hierarchy, right? Like you're going to figure out that, you know, there are a bigger points here that some folks who have been enduring problems for the last 10 years.
Right. And they're like, if you could only make a process that does X great, that will save us so much time because I spend one day out of every month. Doing this thing manually. . And then you're like manually, well service now can do that in 30 seconds. Right. And, and, and then you show it and they're like, wow.
And they fall off the chair and then, you know, you got them. And, but I mean, but it's those situations where sometimes it's not the point is you have to go deeper than where the client, sometimes it's even telling you that. You know, deeper than what's on the, um, statement of work and dig deeper. And then, um, then what, then what they've even kind of led you on to belief, you got to find that point and then you can deliver to outcomes and that's only, and, and, and it's only then when you know the point that you can actually deliver the outcome that the customer is looking for.
[00:32:11] Duke: Totally because a good place to leave it off.
[00:32:13] CJ: All right.
[00:32:14] Duke: All right. Thanks for listening folks. This has been a as always. I am Robert .
[00:32:18] CJ: And I'm Corey, CJ.
[00:32:20] Duke: We'll see you next time.
[00:32:21] CJ: Bye-bye.