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Authentic, Authoritative, Unapologetic ServiceNow commentary by Cory "CJ" Wesley and Robert "The Duke" Fedoruk
CJ: All right, Duke.
So what are we doing on today's
Duke: switcheroo!
Today we have a very special guest, as
some of you know, I do some ServiceNow
coaching I ran a few cohorts last year,
and I am very lucky and excited to have
one of the graduates from that cohort.
Holly Ryder, join us
today on CJ and the Duke.
Hey, Holly.
Holly: Hey, Duke.
Hey, CJ.
Thanks for having me.
CJ: Hey, Holly.
Thanks for being here.
Duke: in the description so you
guys can check them out if you're
a Canadian ServiceNow customer.
Okay.
So Holly, why don't you tell
us a little bit about yourself?
You're pre ServiceNow, Holly.
Holly: Okay, pre service nail holly.
\ , I was an esthetician and makeup artist.
, so it's been quite a journey to go
from that to, uh, learning service now.
, I had done a bit of, , platform
administration for a nonprofit and,
, met a lovely human, , who, uh, is
actually an architect at GlideFast.
And he's like, oh, if you can do
the platform, , administration,
why don't you look into this?
Because I was looking to switch
gears after, um, COVID, , I was
primarily, uh, doing makeup for bridal.
So that kind of went away for two years
and I just dove into trying to learn
what this whole crazy world is about.
Duke: How did you start?
, when you decided I'm going to learn
ServiceNow, what was step one for you?
Silence.
Holly: I started poking around
and realized that some of the, CSA
component was going to be a little
bit more intuitive for me because I
had already been a platform admin, so
I had some of that admin experience.
So I Jobe into trying to learn that on
my own, and that went pretty smoothly.
So I was pretty confident.
I got my CSA pretty quickly.
and then I realized that there was
so much more that I was just kind
of on the tip of this iceberg.
and it was just in the middle of, they
had just gone to San Diego and so kind
of like the next experience was that,
New and flashy and pretty and that
started sucking me in deeper so I did
my certified application developer
certification as well With no, background
whatsoever in, development or programming.
but they had mentioned that there
was a Code Academy and then while I
was Googling Code Academy, I found
Chuck Tomasi and his lovely videos.
And, as I've said before.
Duke: Big shout out to Chuck.
Holly: He is a beautiful sunshine human
who is like, Oh, I could figure this out.
And he's so happy and engaging.
Duke: Oh man.
everybody take a shot.
Cause we're going to put a
link in the description below.
We've got a black house
episode with Chuck Tomasi.
You never knew.
CJ: Yeah,
Duke: Tomasi like outside service now?
CJ: and Chuck is committed
to a part two, two, right?
So this is a call, a call out
to that we haven't forgotten.
Duke: coming for you, Chuck.
CJ: We'll see you at knowledge.
Duke: Yeah.
Oh man.
but this is all just you
on your own so far, right?
So CSA, CAD, Chuck
Tomasi's JavaScript videos.
Holly: Mm hmm.
And, I started applying for jobs
and realized while I started looking
through the job descriptions that
I had no idea what I was doing.
because I guess from my background,
you need certifications to be able
to do the job before you do the job.
So that's how I had approached
it that, oh, I'm supposed to
have the certifications, then
I do the job and learn the job.
and that is not at all
how service now works.
so then,
CJ: How would you say it works then?
Is
Duke: Yeah, I'm I really want to
double click on this too, because.
I have to break this news the
hard way to a lot of people.
They're just like, I have the
cert, like, where's the jobs.
And you give them a little bit of
an interview and it's kind of like,
but I, if you could double click
on that, we'd really appreciate it.
Okay.
Holly: is you need to just get
your hands dirty in your PDI.
You need to build and the nice thing
is like the developer site even
has those step by step This is how
you create your first application.
This is how you learn how to lock
it down like you really really have
to start actually using it because
For me, at least, the CSA and the
CAD was, definitions and terms.
And I can talk about those definitions
and terms, but that doesn't mean that
I actually know how to use a client
script or when to use a client script.
It doesn't mean that I know the
difference between what a client script
and a business rule does, or when
to use them, whether or not they're
on the browser or the server, like,
literally, you have to start playing
with it and getting dirty, so to speak.
and as you start gaining that experience,
then that learning, starts coming for you.
CJ: so that's when it all comes together
when you've , absorbed the book knowledge
and then you've, put it all into practice
and your PDI and you say, whoa, whoa,
whoa, that kind of didn't happen the way
I thought it was going to happen and, or
like, Oh, that's why you do it this way.
And then you integrate , that level
of understanding into your skill set.
And then you start to
build on it with , all of.
The collective knowledge that you have
right from the stuff that you learned
from reading and watching videos.
And then now the stuff that you're
learning from actually executing,
, those things that you watched
and read about, would that be,
Holly: Yeah, , that's exactly it.
CJ: yeah, you know, and I've seen
that I've seen the same thing, right?
Like for me, You know,
you, I read it first.
Right.
I integrate that.
It's kind of like, okay, now
I got the theoretical, right?
It helps for me to
understand the why behind it.
I'm behind the what, right.
And then I do the one and
it's like, Oh, all right.
And it all kind of comes together.
So it's interesting for me to hear that
, lots of other people learn this way too.
Duke: So, you're going around on
your own and you got your two certs.
You started applying what made you
decide you needed to do a cohort,
a training, a coaching cohort.
Holly: Kali Alexander.
CJ: yes, yes, yes, yes.
Shout out to Kali.
Oh my God.
I got love to hear that.
I love to hear that.
Holly: She had you on her show and,
it had been one of the ones that I
had, , tuned in for it and it's like,
Oh, like, I think it was, , maybe when
she was doing that, quick coaching
series that she had did for a little bit.
And I was like, Oh, this guy really knows.
And I started actually
searching through LinkedIn.
And I started realizing like, CJ and
the Duke existed because I had no
idea if I actually feel like I've.
Very much didn't know anything
about the ServiceNow community
other than now learning.
The developer site and Chuck
Domasi and LinkedIn kind of
opened my eyes to a lot of that.
and then, I actually sent her a message
and just thanked her I said, like,
I just, I just don't know where to
go from here because I've got these
certifications and I feel like I know
stuff, but I also feel like I have no
idea what I'm doing at the same time.
And she said, I know the guy you need.
Duke: Bye bye.
Okay.
Holly: reached out to you because
you messaged me and I just had
sent me, um, because I was saying
I didn't know what to build.
I had listened to a couple of your
shows and both of you guys are talking
about, like, what You should build.
And it's like, well,
what the heck do I build?
What does that mean?
And you had thankfully messaged me and
sent me a link to the episode that you
did on what, literally what to build.
CJ: Oh yeah, that was a good one.
Holly: And that made me
follow you, , I'm like in.
And that you were just getting
started with your first cohort and.
What, really sparked my interest
was whenever you did the video with
Tracy, where she had built part of
your soap app at the very beginning.
And I was like, that's what I need.
And so I started hounding you.
Duke: I wasn't that hard to find, was I?
Holly: No, you weren't.
You were great.
CJ: Whoa.
No, that.
And let me double click on that.
we very, we very rarely get to.
To talk about that experience from the
perspective of like someone reaching
out to one of us and actually having
them on the shows and interviewee.
So Duke, if you don't mind, I'm
going to ask Holly a little bit about
how, how, how the experience went,
reaching out to the Duke and, and
getting on board into his program.
And Because obviously
you became successful.
So , talk a little bit about like
how that experience ended up with
you working for a ServiceNow partner,
having come from, somewhere completely
outside of the ServiceNow ecosystem.
Holly: I, messaged you to let him
know that I would like to join the
cohort and, he did, about a 15 minute
interview with me, , which scared
the crap out of me because, um, Um,
CJ: awesome.
Holly: that I have such respect
for what you have done and
everything that you share.
And it's that it's a career pivot.
It's like you're coming from knowing
that you have some life experience,
but you don't in this area.
and I'm an introvert as well.
So getting brave enough to
reach out and ask the questions.
, and thankfully, I was accepted
into the cohort and that was.
That was amazing.
And I'm not saying that just because
I'm talking to you, I actually tell
everybody that I absolutely would not be
where I am today without, , the cohort.
I was jazzed from the very first,
honestly, I was downstairs in my
basement, in a little cubby, , doing
my first lesson, I came upstairs and
Duke: I mean, you had your CSA and
your CAD on your own power beforehand,
so you had all the smarts you needed.
CJ: Well, Oh, so,
Holly: but I didn't know
how to put it together.
CJ: So talk about that.
Talk about how you had two certifications.
One of them and advanced certification.
I considered a CAD, uh, a rather
advanced, um, service now certification.
Tell me , what you learned on
working with the Duke that allows
you to put that all together.
Holly: it's like the difference between
having book smarts and street smarts.
CJ: Okay.
Okay.
I'm digging.
Holly: me, the Duke gave me street smarts
CJ: All right.
Holly: because what I found was that
I knew the terms and definitions and
I had a good idea of, okay, how this
goes together, but he would break down.
Okay.
This is.
Where are we using a business rule?
This is why we're choosing to use a
business rule over a client script.
For example, this is why we're
choosing to use a business rule instead
of, um, using a scheduled script.
Why we're going to use flow
instead of a business rule.
Like he started actually breaking
down the things that we actually do.
And then the.
Big thing for me was two things.
One, he was very adamant that
no question is ever stupid.
And from my background, whenever you would
ask a question, especially corporately,
it was very much, you were questioning.
Authority or you were you
weren't asking to learn and I'm
a very much a curious person.
So, like, I will, ask and I ask
until I can understand and he very
much encouraged that and made time.
Like, it didn't have to
be during class time.
Like, he, he was able to be late.
Reached on LinkedIn or discord,
which is usually my favorite medium.
And he answered the questions, and
taught me how to ask the smarter
questions, which was also an episode
that you guys did that taught me a lot.
Um, and then
Duke: uh,
Holly: for example, whenever we were
learning how to do the soap app, he was
explaining, this is what my business is.
And I want you to start
building this for me.
And that's it.
There's no, this is why
I want you to build it.
This is what I want done.
This is some ideas I have.
We literally had to dig and ask him
and he did not make it easy because
he acted like an actual client, where
he wanted us to figure out what was
going to work best for the business.
Even though maybe he might have some
preconceived ideas or something, it
was more, okay, what can we provide
and how is this going to actually
get better business outcomes?
Not, oh, this is going to
look pretty or whatnot.
And he made us dig through that.
Duke: It's the whole idea of like,
don't learn from a textbook when
you can learn from real life.
CJ: Right.
Duke: only for a very short time in your
ServiceNow career, will you be doing stuff
that's direct transformation, right?
So, so some other ServiceNow resources,
build a client script, that blah,
blah, blah, if the requirements
were that specific, why doesn't the
person who's writing them just do it,
CJ: Yeah.
No, that that's definitely fair, right?
, if you can write out the requirements,
you can just write out the
requirements and hand them over.
But one of the good things about having
someone in front of you who actually wants
to work done is they can tell you the
why they want the work done and how they
want to see it and things of that nature.
And you can also get feedback on whether
or not those things are good ideas
and how it can be done differently
or betterly based on a betterly.
Wow.
Differently or
Duke: Oh, it is.
We're saving that one.
CJ: That's the title, uh, differently
or better based on, , the expertise
that you bring , to the table.
, so Holly, I just want to, pull out a
couple of things , that I just heard
, from your answer in that last question.
What I heard is that the Duke
creates a safe space for questioning.
with, with all the work that he's that
he's doing, , in terms of bringing you
into his cohort and how that cohort is set
up, he told you a lot about the why to the
decisions that are being made and the code
or flow design or what have you, whatever
it is that you're doing on the platform,
he told you why you're doing it, right?
So that it made a a lot of sense.
And you can tie it back
to the, what was needed.
he talked critical thinking about it by
basically being that obstinate client,
? That, , you sit down with and say, Hey,
I need you to build this thing and then
you have to tease out of him what he
actually wants other than just the one
sentence of I want this thing to work.
And then he, talked a lot about
the business and outcomes, right?
He emphasized how the business
outcomes drive the overall solution and
putting all that together with the C.
A.
D.
And the C.
S.
A.
That you brought to the table,
Really gave you a more holistic
understanding of service.
Now, would that be a good
summarization of what I just heard?
Holly: Excellent summarization.
Yep.
CJ: And I did it that way, Just for
the listeners at home, because I
wanted them to be able to point to one
specific thing and say, okay, what are
we going to get if I'm working with
the Duke and look, we don't typically
talk, we do talk our own book here.
We don't talk it in depth typically
to this, to, to this point.
Right.
But I've been watching, Duke,
I've been watching you do
this stuff for years now, man.
And it's great to have Holly on here.
Who's actually talking about
the experience that she
got from start to finish.
and she brought, you know,
knowledge to the table, too.
And it shows that it's not just
for folks who come in and they've
never heard of service down before.
It could also be for folks who, knew
about service down before they got
there, who've actually been certified
but wasn't putting it all together.
And now coming out of, the Duke's
cohort, now you've got it all together
and you are now, gainfully employed at
a service now partner, which is amazing.
Congratulations.
Is
Holly: Thank you.
They're really amazing.
And I don't just say that
because I work there.
They're actually a really,
really lovely bunch of people.
CJ: So working now in the service now
ecosystem, what was your first response?
, Oh my God, I'm on a client.
I'm doing actual work in this
thing that I just learned over
the last however many months.
Go.
Like, what was your first, feelings
Holly: Oh, my goodness.
I had to keep pinching myself, and I
know that's such a funny answer, but I'm
so excited to be a part of everything.
And I'm I'm really working with a
really great bunch of people, , and they
value teaching and mentorship as well.
, So my first project that I was on was like
completely out of left field of knowledge
that I had, which was really cool.
because I was getting to learn about a
ham implementation, which it was something
that interested me before, but it wasn't
something that I've done any study on.
And so, , I was brought in as a tester
so that I could learn how things.
Work and how things go and a safe
environment, because I wouldn't
be the one maybe creating it.
I would be the one who's
testing it afterwards.
and then the beautiful thing and another
shout out to the Duke for this is that
when, one of our team members had to
step back, I was able to step up into.
That position, and to create some, how
to documentation on how to do like,
say, an in tune integration, because
he taught me to ask the questions.
CJ: See that that right there, right?
, you started on day one
with the confidence, right?
To interact in your job that you might
not have otherwise had because you
were able to result that, , you were
able to rely back on your training,
that you got working with to do.
That's awesome.
this is like a time honored,
teaching skill to write, like, you
know, train, train, train, train.
So when you get in the actual environment,
you don't have to think right.
Like you just do the
training that you got right.
And, Duke, you know, you've mentioned
before that you're an army brat.
I don't know how much of that,
you know, like influence this,
Duke: Well, I, yeah, I was, , my dad
was an infantry officer and like, I
was not in the infantry definitively,
but Certain things had to be so, right?
Like, this is how you brush your teeth.
And you always brush your
teeth before you make your bed.
And it's just, that's the way things
were all neat and tidy and in order.
And you just don't appreciate that
until it's like much later in life.
You know what I mean?
It's just like, everything's busy.
But.
You've already done all the stuff you
need to do without even thinking about it.
I don't know how that, I don't know how
that relates back to the discussion.
CJ: Well,
Duke: You got me all
distracted with infantry.
CJ: no, no.
I mean, it's just what Holly said though.
Right.
She relied on her experience, and the
cohort on her first day at the job.
Right.
And probably subconsciously.
Holly: everyone.
Duke: dad, I don't bring him down
a notch or anything, just, but the
difference I had was I don't want
anybody doing anything on autopilot.
tell me why you're doing it
this way, even at the beginning.
CJ: Fair enough.
Duke: So it's, it's just not do this.
I don't want anybody to go.
Did I ever say, trust me, Holly?
CJ: okay.
Okay.
Duke: I know.
I don't think I ever said, trust me.
I'm just
Holly: a why,
Duke: Yeah.
Why you saw me just do it that way.
Why did I do it that way?
Any guess, even guesses.
Right.
but speaking of trust me though, I
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Can you hear it by the mic?
CJ: Could definitely hear
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I'm going to have some right now.
Hold on a second.
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You know what I'm talking about Corey?
Like
CJ: Yeah.
A little bit of the jitters, right.
A little bit
Duke: Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel amped up, I feel energized,
but I don't feel like I'm down for
like a deep focused work 'cause
my hands won't stop shaking.
And I remember in the last
episode we talked about what
does it taste like, right?
And I was like, oh, it's kind
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But I actually checked the ingredients
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It says ceremonial grade matcha.
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It's got agave, passion fruit.
Vanilla, red beet, it tastes delicious.
It's a little shot, it's like
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I'll say, trust me, Holly, I swear.
Holly: can
CJ: Me on the other hand,
I'll say trust me a lot.
Because I'm smart.
Ha ha ha ha ha.
Ha ha ha
Duke: not being
Holly: You're allowed
Duke: but
Holly: it with you when
you've been proving it.
CJ: Absolutely.
Holly: No, you, you made us think
and you made us ask why, and you also
didn't shy away from making a mistake.
Which
Duke: a couple of mistakes on the show.
That's that hurt too.
Like you're an hour and a half
in, and it's like, you're about
to like, just show the punchline.
And it's just like, that didn't work.
CJ: Ha ha ha.
Duke: It just didn't do anything at all.
Yeah.
Sorry
Holly: But that's real
Duke: totally real life.
You don't think that's going to happen
on like the first week on the job.
It just.
CJ: I've told this story before.
I don't know if I've
ever told it on the show.
Right.
But I was going live with a client, right.
It was the Friday before a Monday go live.
And I was moving things
from a test to production.
And I was doing something, something
told me that I needed to clean up
the, yeah, I need to clean up the
attachment table or something like that.
. And so I nuked it, not realizing
that not only was I nuking like all
of those test attachments, I like
nuked like all of the attachments.
The service now also reads in all
other parts of the system, right?
And so we ended up with this system
now that was only half working because
a lot of the referenced images and
things like that were just all gone.
. And this is on a Friday
before a Monday go live.
And I'm like, crap, I don't know
how to get these things back.
And so I start like trying to
pull them back and all that.
And anyway, long story short, right.
I worked over the weekend, got it done.
We went live on Monday.
Everything was great.
. But that was a really serious mistake.
And , I did panic a little
bit, but , had I not actually
said, okay, mistakes happen.
Right.
I got the client on the
phone, Hey, I did this thing.
I blew something out.
Don't worry about it.
We'll get there.
. And client was very
understands, like, I trust you.
You've been good all the way till now.
Like, I'm sure we'll be fine.
and then I got there at the end.
Right.
And we had a great lunch, but
mistakes happen even when you're
not intending them to, even when
you, When you're doing something
that you think is relatively benign.
So, you know, you gotta be for that from
both the training and, a real reality,
um, kind of standpoint so that you
Duke: I like to think that even though
I had stuff that went sideways.
ways on a training call.
It was great opportunities
to practice troubleshooting.
Right.
Holly: hmm.
Mm
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah.
Duke: that's another skill and
troubleshooting is an exquisitely hard
skill to teach, you know what I mean?
Like, it's just one of those
things that you just need to see
enough trench fights to know what's
coming, to know what to do next,
CJ: Ooh, I mean, that's like an entire
episode on systems thinking, right?
Like, cause I think the best
troubleshooters are a great
systems thinking thinkers.
They know how everything relates
together and they know like when
the output of one thing isn't
matching what the output should be,
or the input on another part of it.
And then, you know, you work backwards,
but that's a whole nother show.
But yeah, I agree with you, right?
Like it's, it's incredibly hard
to teach how to troubleshoot.
I tried to teach it to my kids and
I think, why can't you get this?
And
Duke: Teaching them how to think, right?
Oh, so tough.
So what's next for Holly?
Holly: I'm just going to keep pushing.
I am looking forward to getting
my, , ITSM, certification.
I think that's what I'm working on next.
Plugging away at some micro certs
just because those are important
and they teach all kinds of fun
little skills Like ATF, which is
when I just finished that was cool.
And yeah, I'm very content.
CJ: nice.
Duke: We still got some time.
So why don't you tell us about the
coolest thing you've done on the
platform since starting with PAMT.
Silence.
Holly: Oh I think that
learning how To do, , an Intune
integration was pretty darn cool.
And the reason I say that is just
because, it just brings so much
value when you can start having
other systems work with ServiceNow to
pull in your assets or information.
cause there's a lot of different
integrations out there.
and then another one is honestly, I think
Catalog Builder is pretty darn cool.
Because I think that it brings value
to the client to be able to maintain
your service catalog over time,
instead of always having to have things
sometimes done in a complicated manner.
Not that you don't always need that,
but it's nice to be able to have your
clients to be able to maintain that.
Duke: Yeah, I just like you don't
need to have top skill level
people, working on catalog items.
You can
CJ: no, no, no, no.
You're missing.
You guys both.
I love catalog builder.
Like you're missing the best part
of it, The best part of it is that
it makes building catalog items
drag and drop, there's no more like,
okay, , what's the order number here?
Move
Duke: Yeah, no, that's
kind of what I mean.
It's really just putting labels on
questions and, and determining what
type of answer that you're expecting.
Right.
And it's like, why can't a BA do that?
They're writing it in Excel
for crying out loud beforehand.
So why don't I just get all that
stuff done in catalog builder?
And then they don't have to
worry about that stupid, like
what table stores, variable
CJ: Dude, we wondered, yeah, we
wondered through the wilderness for
years for this thing, man, like,
Duke: yeah.
CJ: For me, , it is one of the capstones
of a recent ServiceNow development.
It's just getting that catalog
builder that, , is largely as like,
I don't know, V2 or V3 now, right?
So, which means it's pretty solid and
going in there and not have to, not having
to, manually adjust like positioning
and separators and all that kind of
stuff without being able to see it first.
Duke: Oh, frigging separators.
CJ: exactly.
Duke: Oh, I still hate those
CJ: Exactly.
Duke: episode, I guess,
because we are at time.
Corey's got a boogie in two minutes here.
So wrap this one up, Holly.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Thank you so much for the kind words
Holly: Thank you so much for having me.
You guys are a delight.
Duke: Tons of links in the
description below folks, everybody
take a shot and check that out.
CJ: right.
Still no, still
Duke: Still no outro.