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Art of Spousing is for marriages that what to move from being mundane to becoming masterpiece relationships. Hosts James and Lisa Duvall share truths and lessons learned from their 30 years of marriage and over a decade of teaching, coaching, and speaking on marriage.
Podcast: Art Of Spousing
Episode Title: The Enneagram And Marriage With Beth And Jeff McCord
Host(s): James, Lisa
Guest(s): Jeff , Beth
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Jeff - 0:0:0
Any personality tool says, actually, no, you're, you're just like other people. And whether that be strength finders and or whether that be Myers-Briggs disk or Big Five, it puts us in a group to say like, no, you're just human, but you're uniquely human as well. We have so many negative beliefs about ourselves. These personality tools actually name something of our glory, of our God-given glory, about how we can reflect, uniquely reflect something of who God is for us.
James - 0:0:28
Welcome to this episode of the Art Espousing podcast and thanks for taking time out of your full life and joining us for this show.
Lisa - 0:0:34
We hope you've had a great week. We just got back from a 19 day trip outta country.
James - 0:0:40
It was amazing.
Lisa - 0:0:41
We're catching up, but it was a lot of fun and super productive, but we're really glad to be back home, family and friends and sleeping in our own bed in our own time zone.
James - 0:0:52
Amen. Amen. Yes, we did have a great time and we were blessed to be able to go to Israel with our church. And then we spent a week in Stockholm, Sweden with our good friends Pastor Andrea San Nielsen, investing in marriages that his own church. It was an amazing trip.
Lisa - 0:1:6
We took her 17 year old daughter with us and it was the first time she ever seen snow go big or go home, see that's right. Snow for the first time in another country. She loved it for about five minutes and then she was ready for South Florida and actually was looking for the sun schedule when we got my call.
James - 0:1:23
That's true. So we're really excited about today's show. We have Jeff and Beth McCord with us to talk about the Enneagram in marriage. We recorded this conversation a few weeks ago and there's so much great content from the conversation that we decided to make this a two-part episode.
Lisa - 0:1:37
Beth and Jeff are founders of your Enneagram coach. They are authors of two books becoming us, using the Engram to create a thriving gospel-centered marriage and more than your number, a Christ-centered engram approach to becoming aware of your internal world. In this episode, we hear from their perspective on how the engram and gospel work together and the impact are really practical tool that we call the marriage dance. Before
James - 0:2:1
We get through the conversation with Jeff and Beth, we wanna make sure you know about the marriage reboot retreat. This is a private intensive experience for you and your spouse working exclusively with Lisa and myself for two consecutive full days. At the end of those two days, you'll walk away with a unified purpose for your marriage in a holistic vision for your marriage and family. If
Lisa - 0:2:20
You're interested in finding out more about the marriage reboot retreat, we would love to talk to you about it. You can schedule a call with us using the link and the show notes or online at art espousing.com/marriage coaching. You can also direct message us on Instagram with the word call and we'll send you a link. You know what, we've given you a lot of options to get in touch with us, so do that. Okay. So let's jump into our conversation with Jeff and Beth McCord.
James - 0:2:43
Beth and Jeff, it's so great to have you on the Art Espousing Podcast. Thank you for taking time to be with us today. Yeah,
Lisa - 0:2:50
Thanks for having us. We're
Jeff - 0:2:51
So excited. Yeah, thanks. We're really excited. I, I love the name of your podcast by the way. Thank you. Ah, but the Art of Spousing says, Hey, it's an art. That's right. Yeah. You practice art and it like you may come at it a couple different it. I just think it's a wonderful name. Well,
James - 0:3:5
That's exactly what, thank you. Yeah, thanks. That's what what it's all about is that, you know, marriage is a lot of it's, there's principles and there's a little bit of science to it, but there's really each couple, and you guys know this from many Graham, each couple's different and there's kind that art of of knowing each other. Right. So that's what we're all
Jeff - 0:3:18
About. That's right.
Lisa - 0:3:19
That's right. Well, thank you.
Jeff - 0:3:20
So I, I dunno if you, you guys probably know this, but there are 45 couple types on the Enneagram.
James - 0:3:25
No, did not know that.
Jeff - 0:3:26
When you do the math and put it all together, 45 unique couple types and then if you think of each Enneagram type as a swatch color, Sherman Williams, you've got a thousand Blues. Right. So yeah, that is, even if you're one of the 45, you're still unique.
James - 0:3:40
Awesome. We had to do like a, like a podcast on each 45. It'd be like a 50 hour long. Oh my gosh.
Lisa - 0:3:45
Podcast. Gosh, that would be a course. I think , well
Beth - 0:3:48
We have 45 courses, one for each couple type combination. And it was
Jeff - 0:3:52
A feat. We, we climbed Everest, we brought everyone back down, but we did lose some toes and fingers. Yes. It was cause it, it's eight modules on core motivation, spirituality, family of origin, communication, conflict and becoming your best self together. Mm-hmm . It was, it was,
Beth - 0:4:8
And it's unique to each couple type combination.
James - 0:4:10
Yeah. That's incredible. So
Lisa - 0:4:12
Great
Beth - 0:4:12
Resource for those who are listening, they are like, I've gotta look at that. It is@becomingus.com
James - 0:4:16
Coming us.com. We're gonna put that in the show notes for sure. Cuz that's a great resource.
Lisa - 0:4:21
I love it. Yeah. So just for our listeners, we'd love to just hear a little bit of your marriage story and a little bit about your background and ministry.
Beth - 0:4:30
Well, I'll start off with the first part and then you can jump into the ministry part. So, so we met when we were freshman in college and got married after our sophomore year. Jeff literally had just turned 20.
Jeff - 0:4:40
We couldn't even have alcohol at our wedding. Right. . Cause we weren't 21 yet. . Yeah. So we had Dr. Pepper. Yeah,
Beth - 0:4:46
We had Dr. Pepper. Yeah. So then we had two kiddos by the age of 25. Jeff went into seminary at that time.
Jeff - 0:4:53
Yeah. So we in college, we were in campus ministry called the Navigators. And so we had embraced that model and did some campus ministry for a couple years and started having children. Then it was my sense of calling at the time to become a pastor. And so we went to seminary with that path. And it was actually during seminary that we found out about the Enneagram. We were about six years in marriage. Two little kids toddlers and Beth and I were just missing each other in that typical just family building time and Right. Full-time seminary. Full-time campus ministry at the time it was, it was a difficult season, but a mentor with the NAS shared with us a book about the Enneagram and it immediately had a really neat effect for, particularly for Beth. Mm-hmm. . I mean I skimmed it like I did all my other seminary books. Yeah. And we just slowly started to use and incorporate that into our own lives as parents being married and also in working and discipling other people. Mm-hmm. .
James - 0:5:48
Yeah. That's amazing. So when you started to actually find the power of Enneagram, was that what began to drive you to like investing in other, other marriages with the Enneagram?
Beth - 0:5:58
Slowly but surely. We didn't do it right off the bat. All of the people that were really teaching the Enneagram at the time, predominantly were not from a Christian perspective. So we really just kind of observed it and looked at it. But Jeff being,
Jeff - 0:6:11
I remember us going into Borders and Barnes and Nobles Yeah. And having to go into the new a section to find these books. Wow. But because we were pastors and, and, and we wanted to be theologically mindful it, we didn't know what to do with it. Like this is really helpful, these categories, but some of their, the worldviews that were being promoted just do not align with the scriptures. Yeah. And so we actually kept it quiet for a while and would share privately with couples and individuals. Yeah.
Beth - 0:6:39
And during that whole time we were really reworking how to see the Enneagram from a biblical perspective. And so I would be reading something and I was like, gosh, that is such really good truth. But gosh, that is not from a Christian perspective. So I'd say, Hey Jeff, how would we see that from a Christian perspective? And so then he would nuance it and share some verses and I was like, oh gosh, that's awesome. So we would just do that time and time again over the course of years until we felt really comfortable with a gospel centered approach to the Enneagram. And like Jeff said, you know, we were utilizing it with some of our friends in the church couples and totally saw their life's change as it had ours. And so yeah, we just kind of kept going in that direction but never really thought to do
Jeff - 0:7:22
Anything. Never. This was gonna be
Beth - 0:7:23
Something really with it just
Jeff - 0:7:25
We,
Beth - 0:7:26
Yeah. We just kind of share it with, you know, whoever was interested. And that's kind of how we did it. Probably from 2001 is when we found it till about 2014 15. That's
Jeff - 0:7:34
Right. So over a decade we were pretty quiet about it. I remember the first time we did a bigger presentation at a private Christian school and we didn't want to go and promote these other authors that were writing the Enneagram and create any kind of controversy. So that was the first time that we started to make our own content. Yep. But just based upon our own research. And that became a a, I mean it was just a long story of developing resources over time to help individuals and couples. Yeah. The interesting thing is that we were seeing some of the biggest impact on our staff team at church. Like it, it just changed everything. Then they shared it with their wives and all of a sudden we've got families that we're all talking with and people then it was kind of a funny thing in the church. Like, oh, you need to go get some time at the McCord's table to hear about this personality thing. . Yeah.
Beth - 0:8:21
Well and I think what was so intriguing back then too is that the people in our church, we were so really focused on Christ work in and through us and our identity in Christ. But how did this tool help us to gain even more clarity about that? Not that this was a substitute for it, but that this actually brought clarity to how the gospel applies to our life. And that was just really fun to explore with our pastor and his wife and our friends because that is just the waters we swam in. So nowadays when I kind of hear some people maybe are confused about how to to use the anagram or should we, we just we're always around people like no Christ is foremost in center of everything that we wanna talk about. Right. This is just one of many tools and resources out there that we can use to get to know Christ and get to know ourselves better. So it was a really fun season and then God opened the doors for a whole neat way of
Jeff - 0:9:14
Doing it. Yeah. 20 1620 17. It just took off on its own and we wrote the wave.
James - 0:9:19
Mm-hmm . That's amazing. I, I'd love to ask you this because you know, we've had conversations and talking about your social media and you guys get people who make crazy comments on your social media about Enneagram and there there is a sense in some Christians that don't understand Enneagram and they get freaked out by it. I'm, I'm wondering from your perspective why that is specifically and then you hit on a little bit, but I'd love to hear just a little bit more about how you've connected the Enneagram to the gospel.
Jeff - 0:9:45
Well number one, I affirm what Christians are wanting to do to be discerning in their faith. The, but the church over its history, even in the Bible itself, was always wrestling with how to be in the world but not of it like it's gonna be the, just the norm for all of Christian history. So we're always battling with the question, and I think it's neighbor who wrote the book, Christ in Culture, that spoke about the seven ways the church has related to its culture. So it's always a battle. And we understand that for us, we were trained in the tradition of Liber and Francis Schaffer. And particularly within our theological tradition, the, we had a, a world in life view that didn't distinguish between secular and sacred. That God is the creator of all things and that the fall has impacted all things and that Christ is redeeming all things.
Jeff - 0:10:32
It's a new heaven and a new earth. Right. God doesn't make junk and he doesn't junk what he has made. And so for us it was how can we redeem this? So if all people are seeking truth, then just because it came from a non-Christian doesn't mean that it's not true. Right. But it may not have the clarity or be in alignment with what the scriptures are saying. And so we just took upon like, okay, let's figure out what this looks like. So it'd be no different than taking, let's say John Gottman's material. Mm-hmm . Now John Gottman is Jewish, a practicing Jew. But that doesn't mean that in order to embrace his research and his practical stuff that we become need to become Jewish. But we can teach like his four horsemen about that can damage a marriage are incredibly biblical. Like of, of course like when you start off with contempt before another person and speaking against the image of God and another person's dignity that's gonna have problems in your marriage, he discovered something that was true universally and that is also true in the scriptures themselves. And so what that looked like then is that we started to see that our Enneagram types really are the patterns, we'll call it the flesh or the old self, about how we are trying to live life apart from the cross. And then when we started to look at particularly the childhood messages or the core longings, that's where we applied the gospel and don't you take
Beth - 0:11:51
It from there. Yeah. So I mean what God is, is really after is our heart right? You know, he's not after the outward behavior and the Enneagram is getting to the heart. There's a lot of personality tools out there, they're great, but they're focusing on the outward and the behaviors. And so that's why we've really enjoyed the engram cuz not only is it letting you know why you think feeling behave in particular ways, but it's also gonna let you know if you're doing it in a healthy average or unhealthy way. And so what we've done with that in particular is we show, okay, how are you aligned, misaligned, or out of alignment with the truth of the gospel? Now the good news of the gospel is that no matter what, if we've received Christ, we are aligned, we are his beloved child. But we do in our mind and our heart wander from time to time, but our identity and our relationship status remains the same.
Beth - 0:12:36
And so we can kind of see at any given moment, how's my heart doing? Am I aligned right now or am I misaligned and what do I need to do to get back into alignment? And so much of that is surrendering depending on Christ and the Holy Spirit to work in and through us. So really what we're trying to do is to to show how we use our personality defensive mechanisms, strategies and different ways of being to try to get this core longing that we had. This is a message that our heart longs to hear and we will try to get it from just about anywhere. But what we are showing everyone is that no, it is Christ who satisfies you. And once someone really understands that he satisfies that core longing, they no longer have to keep trying to get it from other places.
Beth - 0:13:20
They can go right to the source at any moment all the time. That's awesome. Yeah, I mean I think a lot of the things out there right now that people are getting hung up on are actually misunderstandings of where the Enneagram came from or so so to speak. The origins, what I would recommend is people can do two things. They can go to our website, your engram coach.com/origins. We've got three podcasts that we did with three pastors that we really cover a lot of material on this subject. But there are also some links on the side that will connect you to other resources. And one of them is an hour long YouTube video by Tyler Zuck. Tyler is an Enneagram coach, he just finished being a pastor so he could stay at home with his son and homeschool. But he has done extensive research on the real history of the Enneagram and he really shows and debunks some of the narrative that's been out there of where people think it's coming from. And it's just not true. And so I really recommend that if people are loving the engram and it has been, you know, very helpful for them, but they're hearing all of this chit chatter around, just go watch a Tyler Zox one hour YouTube video and you will learn so much. That's great. I love it. We just move forward and use it in a gospel center perspective.
Jeff - 0:14:34
And a couple things come to mind as to why the Enneagram is popular. One, I think it normalizes who we are. Like we really think that we are so fundamentally flawed and broken that no one can understand us and we are beyond redemption. Like there's just no one's like me. I, I am just a freak whatever the negative head trash term that we would use and that I have something to contribute in the world, you know, as it is right now. Just like the Myers-Briggs was popular in the eighties and baby disk in the nineties and early 2000, what whatever the timing may be, I'm not really sure the Enneagram is having its particular moment, but it didn't come from a western school of thought of like a university or a think tank that actually came out of a wisdom tradition. There were Eastern mystics, but they were one of 'em who really put together the modern unigram was a trained clinician, psychiatrist and university professor. And so he brought all those things together and then each engram teacher really just teaches it from their own worldview now. So you don't even have to agree with his worldview. But now all the science and research are actually backing it up. And we just completed a course for mental health professionals and we were able to gather close to 40 different research articles of what people are doing to sort of back feel. Whoa, that was a great southern accent back.
Lisa - 0:15:48
Feel. Feel right? Feel. I appreciate that.
Jeff - 0:15:52
Yes. I got feelings
Lisa - 0:15:54
. Um,
Jeff - 0:15:55
But back Phil, the research on the Enneagram,
Lisa - 0:15:57
I've kind of hinted to this when we met you guys this past fall, but I've been tracking you longer than James. So I'm big, big fans of y'all for some time just cuz I've had a love for Enneagram. It's been so helpful in my own emotional growth and spiritual growth and just growth as a woman. And I've read all your stuff. I've watched videos back, I think you were actually at our alma mater in Nashville teaching way back when at Trebek Nazarene Universities. That's one of the first videos I watched of you. That's a big deal.
Jeff - 0:16:26
Yeah. Yeah. Our daughter ended up graduating from Trebek Get out, that's
Lisa - 0:16:30
Our alma mater. Yeah. So just tracking really a while back following reading and come across y'all's material in different ways. And so in Nashville you were offering a date night a couple of years ago and I said, James, if you take me to that date night in Nashville. So we live in West Palm Beach, so we flew there just to have a weekend date night and to hang out with you guys. And so we loved it. But any gram date night learned so much about ourselves. But one of the things that you talked about there that we just found fascinating that we would love you just to talk about as it relates to marriage is this marriage dance and how that works.
Jeff - 0:17:8
I remember we're finishing up, we were probably about 80% done with becoming us
Beth - 0:17:13
Probably more than that.
Beth - 0:17:14
And because
Beth - 0:17:15
We were past the like no return. Yeah. I like it hadn't been submitted, but it was
Beth - 0:17:20
Close
Beth - 0:17:21
It. Yeah.
Jeff - 0:17:22
. And it was before church. I was pastoring again at the time and I was reading a book by Johnson on emotion focused therapy and they used the term of the dance to describe the dynamics, the emotional dynamics between couples called the emotion focused therapy. And I'm like rut row. I got an idea that we can capture something of the dynamics between two Enneagram types and we call it the dance, think of an infinity loop. And so there's stuff that's happening in the heart or below the surface and there are things that are in behavior. And because the Enneagram speaks to the why that we think, feel and behave, wow, we can really take this quite far in marriages where it's no longer just about you responding reactively, but why did you respond that way? Right. And that we can actually bring the gospel to bear upon one another's heart.
Beth - 0:18:14
Yeah. So you know, with that infinity loop, put it horizontal and so not like an eight but you know, on horizontal and then put a line through it. And so below that line is the heart condition. And each of those loops is one of the spouses above the line is the behaviors. So let's say you start with me, one of my core motivations. So internally my core motivations is I'm gonna run away from any kind of conflict or tension. I'm seeking peace and harmony. And I'll do that through the core weakness of negating myself and merging and going along to get along all the while my core longing is wanting to know that my presence matters. So when Jeff might get, let's say frustrated or upset or brings in a little bit of energy, my nine alarm is going off inside like Uhoh, he's unhappy or he's dissatisfied and it could be the littlest thing to him being really upset. It doesn't matter, he's not happy. So all of a sudden I'm feeling kind of worked up like uhoh and he can kind of sense. And so externally, I'm either starting to shut down or I'm starting the people please and he can sense this
Jeff - 0:19:18
And my fear is of abandonment. And
Beth - 0:19:20
As a type six,
Jeff - 0:19:21
If if you've been married to a nine for any length of time, you know that they can emotionally disengage. It's
Beth - 0:19:27
Kind of like, you know, like a turtle. It's like Uhoh, rip , we're out . Yeah.
Jeff - 0:19:32
Well I experienced that as a emotional abandonment. So, which
Beth - 0:19:37
Is not my intention, but of course that's how it moves
Jeff - 0:19:39
On. So she's anxious in moving away from me. I'm anxious in moving towards her. Yeah. Now we're already in the dance
Beth - 0:19:47
And the more he moves towards me mm-hmm. , the more it feels like tension and conflict, the more I wanna like hightail it out of there and around and around that dance goes.
Jeff - 0:19:54
I mean there were times, and we talk about that in our Becoming Us Live event. Like I would yell at her trying to get her to come back like, I love you
Beth - 0:20:3
. Right? like it was all like these positive things, but it landed on this nine heart, like you are saying, you love me in a way that communicates the complete opposite. Opposite. And you know, but once we started understanding this dance, we were able to go, oh, well of course Beth naturally is going to run away and avoid conflict and fear. That's what a nine does. Not saying that it's right, but it is what a nine does and a six is gonna feel abandoned. So what can it be in a different way? You know, how can we change that? Well, if I can trust and believe that my presence matters and that God loves me, even through the ups and the downs and the storms and the turbulence and other people not always being happy, that's what nines want. Just everyone be happy. So when Jeff's not happy, I can remind myself it's okay. I can be in the present moment, I can engage and this is gonna be uncomfortable, it's gonna be hard. I'm gonna wanna run, but I can stay in the present moment cuz God's got me. Then that is gonna land on Jeff's six heart as more security, more attunement, and that's gonna calm me heart out.
Jeff - 0:21:10
My need for presence, my need for faithfulness. Mm-hmm. and trustworthiness really ultimately comes from my relationship with God. Right. Beth was never intended to satisfy something that God made for himself. Right. And so in my hearts at rest with the truth of the gospel and that he will never leave nor forsake me no matter what Beth may be experiencing. So
Beth - 0:21:31
If I do, I'm okay. If I do withdraw,
Jeff - 0:21:33
If she does withdraw, that's okay because that doesn't mean that I'm alone. And so then with my heart at rest, I can see, okay, something's troubling, my wife. Mm-hmm. . And I don't have to be so reactive out of this fear, but actually I can be more emotionally, emotionally sober to be able to respond to Beth with kindness, with much more patience, no more yelling, assurances of my love. But it didn't work. It didn't work in chasing her into every room in the house to fight with her doesn't , but simply to say, Hey Beth, it looks like you're checking out. That's okay. If you can describe what you're afraid of right now, then you can share it. Otherwise take a break and then we'll come back and reengage.
Beth - 0:22:10
Yeah. And so really what we're wanting just to, to show people is that there's an aligned dance and there's a misaligned dance. And what we usually do is we shame ourselves or our spouse for being in the misaligned dance when really we're just wanting attunement, we're wanting someone to see that we're scared, we're suffering, we're upset, whatever it is. And we want someone to come alongside what us in the journey, but not condemn, shame, harm, be against. And so if we can understand where our spouse might be coming from their core motivations, then it helps us to have the empathy and the compassion and actually coming alongside like just just said. And it allows your spouse's heart to rest a little bit more, but it's really ultimately up to the spouse to be aligned with Christ. Yeah. Because again, our spouses can't come through for us.
James - 0:22:57
Okay. That's a great place to end for this week. Next week we'll continue our conversation with Jeff and Beth. It will be fun as they actually walk us through the marriage dance with our two Enneagram types. I
Lisa - 0:23:7
Thought a little exposed.
James - 0:23:9
That's true. We also talk about their newest book more Than Your Number at Christ-centered Instagram approach to becoming aware of your internal world.
Lisa - 0:23:16
Thanks for listening to us today. If you have any questions or comments about what you've heard, we'd love to connect. Email us@helloartspousing.com. You can also message us on Instagram Art espousing.
James - 0:23:28
Have a great week and we'll see you next time on the Artist Spousing podcast. Until then, bye-bye. Bye-bye.