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Authentic, Authoritative, Unapologetic ServiceNow commentary by Cory "CJ" Wesley and Robert "The Duke" Fedoruk
Duke: All right, Corey, what
are we talking about today?
CJ: oh man, duke.
So today we're talking about
understanding your limits, right?
And understanding, , when
enough is enough, sometimes.
Duke: Yep.
I would say I've been
there more than once.
CJ: Me too.
Me too.
Right?
Like I am a, a serial, , you
know, and it is kind of weird.
I mean, I guess, based on, some
of the things that I've said
recently around knowledge, right?
Like, say yes to everything
you would not be surprised that
sometimes I overload myself.
Duke: Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's an easy
ecosystem to do that in too.
Like we're clearly all
passionate about ServiceNow.
80 some episodes in still no outro though.
CJ: Yeah, I know still.
Yeah.
Well, and I think maybe
that's by design, right?
Maybe we, we don't have an outro
because we don't wanna finish.
Duke: Yeah, maybe.
Yeah.
Or thumb our nose at one more thing to do.
CJ: Right,
Duke: But, uh, where was I going?
but it's so easy to, pour
more of yourself into this.
CJ: right.
Duke: Making videos, making CJ in the
Duke, , writing blog posts, helping
out on community and, and serving
my customers, uh, and looking for
new ones, you know, and it just,
I certainly felt tired this week.
it's
CJ: yeah, yeah.
No, man, I, I've been
exhausted, so I feel you.
Duke: And it's hard and it's hard to say.
No.
It's really hard to say no.
CJ: It's especially hard to
say no when it's something that
you're really interested in too.
Right.
And, and, like you said, we're all so
passionate about this ecosystem, and
so when someone comes up to you and
they've got this really cool thing and
you think, wow, that is a really cool
thing, I'd like to be involved in that.
Right.
And so you, you're thinking, yeah.
Yeah, I'll do that.
Yeah, I'll help.
Right.
Duke: Yeah.
CJ: and then, the next thing you
know, all of those, five and six hour
commitments kind of start to snowball
into a, like a huge thing that's
pushing down the side of a hill.
Duke: Yeah, and so I think, I mean,
we just blow the punchline on this,
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: I think.
I think it's really important
for people to seriously consider.
I.
The things that they say yes
to, beyond the stuff that they
have to say yes to, right?
Like I have to say yes to a certain amount
of work so I can feed my family and so I
can grow my, wealth and do all that stuff.
I have to say a certain
amount of yes to that.
But everything after that, you gotta
be careful about, you really do.
CJ: absolutely.
Right.
And I, and I think this is, especially
relevant for folks who might not
necessarily be at the beginning of their
career and might not necessarily be in
a situation where they don't have, or
are probably all in a situation where
they have, family obligations, right.
You know, because those things we
often don't take into account the
family obligations that just, I
mean, they don't go away, right?
Like, you got kids, you got a spouse.
that stuff requires, like that
stuff, uh, those folks they
require, caring, feeding, right?
Like, I mean, you love him, right?
So you gotta spend
Duke: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that took me a long time to learn.
I think a few years back when I.
I started Wolfpack and it
was going badly, right?
I was making all kinds of bad decisions.
I was in bed with the wrong people and,
but in my mind I was just like, oh, no.
Failure is is a mindset, And so if I
just buckle down, , work longer and
work harder, then eventually clear the
barrier and this will be a success story.
CJ: Right.
Duke: And what a crock of shit.
Like honest to goodness, like, I should
have just known what to, but anyways,
what I was saying there was that that
came at a sacrifice to my family.
Like I just, you know, I was putting in
80 hour weeks and I paid that sacrifice,
but who else paid that sacrifice?
My kids, my wife, you know.
CJ: Yeah.
you always want to take
that for granted, right?
You want to take the, take it for granted.
I'm doing this for us, right?
Like, I expect that, you know,
you'll understand this little thing,
this little inconvenience, right?
Because you love me, and
you'll be there for me.
You under, you'll, understand
this little inconvenience.
You'll understand that I.
Have to work more.
I have to do more right now with
the understanding that later.
Right?
Like I'll have more time for that,
but you gotta make sure later comes,
Duke: Gotta make sure later.
Yes, exactly.
Like what on earth am I doing this for?
You know what I mean?
Like what on earth am I
actually doing it for?
You know, if I get well
compensated, what would that mean?
You know what I mean?
I don't do, I don't do the
well compensation just so
I can be well compensated.
Like what good is wealth
relative terms here?
Right.
Not wealthy, but what, what, what
good is wealth if you're not, if
you're not exchanging it for time?
CJ: well, absolutely right.
And it is like money's no good on
its own, the, the whole point in,
in accumulating wealth, right?
is to be able to.
Ease your life in some way.
Right.
You know, and sometimes it's ease
your life and ease the, the life
of, of the folks that you love.
So you, you can't lose sight of the
things that you're doing, the reasons
you're actually doing this stuff.
and you can't, you know, perpetually push
them into the future because you'll look
up one day and you'll be in the future.
Right.
And you won't have, you know,
ever caught up with the things
that you're pushing there.
Duke: And so there's a whole bunch
of different ways you can apply
what we're talking about here.
The one that really hit me this
week was, I think around the,
just before the knowledge ramp up
and then during knowledge, I just
felt like there was a lot of buzz
around creating content, right?
We got rise up trying to get
double the amount of people in the
ecosystem we currently have, and
that means there's gonna be more
new people than seasoned people.
Uh, and like we really need everybody
to pitch in and do content, So I was
on that train, I was raw rowing, and I
just came to realize at some point I.
Don't bow to the pressure if you can't.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Does that make sense?
Like, yes, the ecosystem does need it.
Yes.
A lot of people appreciate it,
but don't dig yourself deeper.
don't tap into reserves to get that done.
CJ: Absolutely.
Duke: talked with a dude at Knowledge
and he was like, I , I'm partway through
the CTA program, , I've got a new child.
how do I get a lot of content out?
Like you do a lot of content.
I'm like, yeah, but I'm not going
through the CTA program and I don't
have like a young, young child.
CJ: Right.
Duke: my kids can take care
of themselves a little bit.
So it's just like there's
times and seasons for this.
There's times and seasons.
CJ: I like that there are
times and seasons for this.
Absolutely.
and you make a really good point, right?
Because my kids, are similar
in age to yours, right?
And they can take care of themselves for
a while, if push came to shove, right?
There's, I mean, they can, they
can do practically, uh, uh, you
know, a lot of things, right?
And so, but six years ago, seven
years ago when they couldn't, I
wasn't doing a podcast either, right?
Duke: Yep.
CJ: Know, I, I wasn't nearly as active in
the community then because I was much more
active, at home, and let me reframe that.
I shouldn't say much more active.
I was required more at home, And so
you only have a, a certain number of
hours in the day, and so sometimes
you gotta figure out how you chop
'em up and how you distribute them.
Duke: Yep.
And you gotta be cutthroat
about it, cuz like, n none of
us get more hours in the day.
It's such a cliche thing to
say, but literally we don't.
CJ: Yeah.
No, you're right.
Duke: I, I feel like I'm not in a
content creation, season right now.
just because, I mean, like when I, when
I was cranking out like a video a day or,
or, or some kind of content today, like
what people don't see is that I had, I've
suffered with like bad sleep basically
my whole life, but in the last five
years I've had times where, you know, I'd
get two, three hours of sleep a night.
What was I doing with
the rest of that time?
making videos?
CJ: Right.
Duke: or researching or, or doing,
you know, I was doing a lot of
other stuff, but, I put out a ton of
stuff back when I wasn't sleeping.
And so it's not like I had a
longer day, or it's not like
I'm super, super fast at it.
I just found the hour somewhere.
CJ: Yeah, but you, but it
costs to something else, right?
Like it costs, it costs to your sleep
Duke: now I sleep a lot and if
somebody did say, okay for the next
week, you got 28 hour days, I'd
probably say, well, you know what?
Like, I'm just gonna hang out with
my daughter, hang out with my son,
and, and do that for a bit, just.
CJ: I'm with you on that, right?
Like, that time you can't, you
can't get back either, right?
And so, you know, you have to be
very careful when you trade that.
Right?
and that's not to say, right?
This isn't CJ and Duke telling,
telling you guys don't create
content while we're creating content.
Right?
Duke: Gotta secure the.
CJ: Right.
Too many podcasts starting up out there.
We're trying to gotta
lock it back down again.
Too many people again, Nancy.
No.
but it's just, I think sometimes we don't
talk enough about things like burnout.
Things like time management, exhaustion,
things like just how you spend
your time and where you spend it
and what's valuable at that moment.
Right.
And I think it's worth it sometimes to
have that conversation and to, and to
collectively give ourselves, permission.
to take, take a step back.
Sometimes I, it's, it's summertime.
I'm, I'm outside
Duke: Yeah, you don't have
to be a content machine.
Even, even if one of your explicit
goals is to like get more fame or infamy
on LinkedIn or, or whatever, like,
again, you could take it day by day.
for heaven's sakes, don't
worry about making content.
You know what I mean?
Don't worry about it.
Make it if it's flowing, but
don't worry about making content.
CJ: Exactly right.
So, and that's, and you know, flow
is a really good, point, right?
Like when you're in a flow
state, like, when I'm there, I
like to capitalize on it, right?
Because that, sometimes it takes
a while to get there, right?
And, you know, there's a whole
lot of theories about how, you
know, do, can you manifest it or
you get lucky or what have you.
But all I know is that once I'm there,
I try to get as much out of it as I can.
Duke: For real.
Yeah.
I, I, I think just somewhat related
insight from my experience making
content is that, don't assume that one
piece of content comes all at once.
Either.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Like I've, I've had
videos that just bounce around.
I take little notes on them from time
to time as the muse strikes, which
could be like in the middle of my day.
It's like, no, I don't have time
to like stop and make a video,
but I'll take a couple notes
of inspiration that I just had.
On something else.
So I keep like a Trello board and I
keep on adding notes, and then sometimes
something just hits critical mass.
It's like, okay, I'm ready to record.
I've had stuff that's been, some
videos I've done that took me
months, months to get it right.
I'm not saying like months of
like shoulder to the wheel, like
push in, but just months of like
taking tiny doses of motivation.
CJ: You, you know, dude,
I mean, absolutely.
I mean, even on this podcast right there
is, we, we have a Trello board, right?
It has like a running list of ideas
that we have for, for show topics.
And you know, sometimes we will,
we'll dive into a, a, a show topic
and you know, yeah, that sounds great.
And then we'll be like, yeah, not quite.
There yet.
Right.
And so we'll leave it and we'll
move on to something else.
Come back, revisit it.
We'll groom it a little bit more, right?
Like it's a story.
We'll groom it a little bit more.
We'll come back on it and we'll
be like, eh, not quite there yet.
Right?
And so we've got some stuff that's been
in the backlog there for quite a while.
Then sometimes we'll go through
the backlog and we'll be like,
yeah, I'm filling that one today.
Let's do that
Duke: Let's finally do it.
CJ: And
Duke: example of that
CJ: oh
Duke: was um, like the
gathering requirements episode.
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah.
Duke: of like a long time waiting.
Right.
And then it just kinda like dawned on
us when you were running for office.
It's like, oh, oh yeah.
CJ: Yeah, like what
better use case, right?
, and because it was a real world use case.
I think so many, a lot of people got
a lot of value out of that, right?
I mean, certainly it was one of
the, the most mentioned, episodes,
when I was at Knowledge, right?
When folks like, I love the podcast
and the requirements gathering episode.
Oh my God, that was amazing, right?
And it's like, great.
Because I, I do think that one,
you know, for me, was really
helpful, in the moment especially.
, but I, I could see how it
would be really helpful, right?
Because we, we literally did
do requirements gathering
for political campaigning.
I did literally use some of that
in the campaign, so, it works.
Duke: I, I remember we tried it once.
I remember we like hit, just
hit the record button, go and we
jammed for a little bit and then
we're like, this is not working.
And we had it broken
down into points, right?
Where it was like point form where we're
like, here's something to think about.
Here's something to think about.
Here's something to think about it.
But it wasn't until you had the, the
whole getting neck deep into your campaign
that we realized let's just do the thing
instead of deconstructing the thing.
CJ: Right,
Duke: Anyways, the here's something
practically you can take away from the
show though, is that let's say you aren't
in the season where you're gonna spend
four hours just cranking out some piece
of content, but that doesn't mean you
have to give up on the content altogether.
Put it in a little idea vault.
Come back to it in little dribs
and drabs as you think about it.
CJ: Yeah that's a really good point, duke.
, because you will eventually
create content, right?
Like I know most of you out
there will, if you're listening
to this, that doesn't mean I'm
telling you that you have to again.
But I do think a lot of folks in this
ecosystem do tend to evolve to that point.
Having that vault of ideas when you're
ready like really does minimize the
amount of of prep work that you have
to do when you're actually ready.
, and when you're in, when you're ready, and
like we said, like time is finite, right?
When you're ready to, and you're
ready to start making content, the
thing you really want to do is make
content and not try to decide what
content to make or how to make it.
So in your downtime, right?
That's what you can be working on.
It's like, what tools do I need
to make the content, right?
, do I have all of the setup that I want?
Right?
What , is my podcast editor
up, up to snuff, right?
, do I have distribution?
, what are the ideas that
I can pull from, right.
Are they flushed out?
You flushed out a little bit.
I can pull it for a minute and I got like
notes and I could just go get in on it.
Do I have guests lined up?
Maybe if I wanna do that, , if
I wanna record a video, right?
Have I have, I actually do, I
know the content well enough
to record a video , on that.
Maybe I'll spend some of this downtime
just learning the content a little bit
better right offline, so that when I jump
in on video, I got less fits and starts.
All of those things you can do,
require less, I'd say intensive time.
and you know, you could do
in your downtime between or
before you create content,
Duke: Right.
I think there's a big thing to talk
about here that's not just about
content creation either, right?
I think there's some fundamental stuff
about work where understanding limits
can really, I think people just need a
better idea of what their limit is and
at the risk of recycling our content
and just saying some of this stuff
over again, if you have any inkling
of going independent at any time.
You need to think about this a
lot is exactly what your limit is.
Cause I think we just get this idea
like, at this rate, I'm just gonna work
like 60, 80 hour weeks and just kill it.
and I think that's way over most
people's limits by most people.
I'm talking like 99%.
CJ: Yeah, man.
as a reformed workaholic, Like,
there, there's been times in my
past right , where I've executed
like a really heavy workload, right?
And I killed it.
But you can't do that forever.
Like it is.
It is, it is.
let me put it this way, right?
Like, there are times where I
executed it well, there were times
where I flamed out on projects right?
, to the detriment of me and my client.
And there are times where I was on a
project and I saw someone else who was
carrying a, high workload and I saw
them flame out and I had to pick up
that slack for them and for the client.
Or been called in, in situations
where that, you know, Happen, and
then they were left without a resource
that we need to get this thing
done, or the client's gonna fire us.
Right?
Like, I've been in all of those situations
and it's, nobody ever wants to be there.
So I, I think, I think we're
all kind of conditioned, right?
Again, like I said, I said
this, a lot of knowledge, right?
Like say yes to everything, but
man, there's a limit, right?
And I know Mo, I know what
my limit is now, right?
And I don't go above it,
uh, most of the time.
Duke: I try really hard not to go above it
CJ: I try really hard not to go above it,
Duke: and this in this case,
it's not just you either, right.
are you gonna burn yourself out?
You have to ask yourself, are you
putting the customers at risk as well
CJ: right.
Duke: or what is best for the customer?
And I'll tell you what the whole idea
of, do you have the time and energy to
do 80 hour weeks presupposes that it
does not matter when the work is done.
And I would say that is a
very, risky assumption to make.
CJ: Yes,
Duke: And I've done this plenty, so if
anybody can warn you about this, it's me.
You wanna take on like four
or five customers at a time.
And it's like, well, there's 40
hours in a week and if I give
'em 10 hours each, that's 40.
Right?
No, because every customer wants
this magic 10 hour band, and
they all overlap on that band.
CJ: Yeah, man.
Everybody wants prime time.
Duke: Yeah, they want
nine to 11 on weekdays.
That's what they want.
Nine to 11:00 AM
CJ: Yep,
Duke: and that's the 10 hour band I want.
Nobody wants like three to
five, especially on a Friday.
Are you joking me?
Come on.
CJ: Seriously.
Seriously, and and it's funny.
It is funny because that nine to
11 band is time zone independent.
I can have a client on the west
coast, a client on the East coast,
they still somehow fall or or desire
the nine to 11 central time band.
Duke: It.
Right.
CJ: Oh.
Oh, but you know, I,
Duke: Don't even know, man.
CJ: so, so funny thing dude, right?
Like, so my family and I, we, so
we sometimes take a vacation out to
the West coast and we'll stay there
for an extended, amount of time and
I'll make it a working vacation cuz
we're out there a long time, right?
Get an Airbnb, that sort of thing.
And.
But going two hours behind your, current
time zone opens up so many possibilities
about how to manage your workload.
Because it, I'm, I'm an early bird, right?
So in, in California time,
I'm up at five in the morning.
It's like seven central, right?
You know, I can, I can get a, I
can get a jumpstart on things.
I can actually do a significant amount of
client work by say, noon California time.
That's 2 3, 2 central,
three East, eastern, right?
I can close the laptop, I can
go out to the beach at noon.
Right?
, and life is good, right?
So there is something to be said
sometimes about time arbitrage.
Arbitrage.
Um,
Duke: no, for sure.
I, I've started getting up a lot
earlier than traditionally, and
I love the fact that you, like
the rest of my family's not up.
The world is quiet,
CJ: yes,
Duke: and
CJ: uninterrupted coffee.
Duke: Yeah, exactly.
I can go as deep as I want on
something or I can just, you know,
I can just screw off for an hour.
I just like having the option, but, but
if I get up at that hour and put the
shoulder to the wheel, grind out some
stuff, I'm not grinding till 5:00 PM
you know, and if I do, I'm not doing
it for that many days cuz I'm old.
CJ: right.
there are those tasks,
that quiet helps, right?
And those tasks aren't always
service down related either, right?
I, I know Duke, you've
got a lot of hobbies.
You make soap, you do leather work, right?
And some of that stuff might be, probably,
might be, you know, more relaxing to do at
five o'clock in the morning than at, you
know, two o'clock in the, in the afternoon
when you know the kids are around and
they're like, daddy, daddy, daddy, right?
And so, and plus you might wanna
spend that two o'clock hour with the
kids instead of doing leather work.
Right.
Duke: yeah, yeah.
No, for sure.
CJ: and the same way, right, like if
I'm doing any of my, like, technical
hobbies, home automation and that sort
of thing, I'm typically doing it when
either the, the family's not home or
when the family's asleep, and being
able to juggle that time is awesome.
but I will tell you back in my workaholic
days though, Getting up at five o'clock
in the morning, that was like two
free hours to client work, you know?
And so, I don't know.
I'm rambling.
I have no idea where
I was going with this.
Uh, the point being right, is that.
Folks do want that magical nine
to 11, time band, And if, if
you carry in multiple projects,
you have to manage that.
And maybe that means alternating which
clients get it on which days, right?
And setting that up,
those recurring things up.
Planning proper planning.
Duke: Yeah,
CJ: Proper.
Was it proper planning?
Prevents piss poor performance?
I think that's the, uh, the maxim.
do that.
And maybe that's a, maybe
that's a marine thing.
I'm not sure I got a lot of family in
Duke: think it's, uh,
British s a s isn't it?
CJ: Is it okay?
Yeah.
All right.
There we go.
And so it, it, and it's
absolutely true, right?
So if you know you're gonna be
carrying multiple clients, right?
And a lot of us do indies,
but also at partners, right?
Like you, there's, you don't
get the luxury of carrying
one client at most partners.
Should I say that out loud?
I don't know if a lot
of, a lot of our clients.
Duke: no, no, no, no.
You, you absolutely should,
because this advice is not
just for indies, I'll tell you.
Everybody go back and listen
to the Deb Quentin episode.
link will be in the description below.
Everybody take a shot.
remember wh when she talked
about how they had a whole team
doing the deployment, right?
And they had an architect in that mix
rate bundle, but they were getting
like two hours a week of her maybe.
CJ: Yes.
Duke: and don't get me wrong, this
girl was awesome at what she did.
She was a fantastic ServiceNow architect,
but they had her going on like, 10
customers at once and it was just like,
springboard two hours per customer.
And so we'd come back and like, where are
we at with this super hyper difficult.
Solution that needs to get designed.
And it was like, hold, hold on a second.
Let's catch up.
Cuz it's been like nine business days
since I did my last two hours stint.
CJ: Yeah.
Right,
Duke: You know?
And it's just , she had
her back against the wall.
There's no way she could keep up with the
conversations with that amount of time.
And it showed, it showed.
And so for the partners, I would say
know your limits is understanding.
how little you can split a resource up.
CJ: Yes.
Right?
Duke: raw hours, it's, it takes
time to fully context switch.
can't just say like, you're working on
these four different accounts and just
assume that 10 hours a week magically.
like it, if I spend four hours
doing assessments and surveys in a
day, there's no way I'm converting
to flow for another four hours,
CJ: Yeah, man, that's,
that's like, that's, that's
literally impossible, right?
Like the, the, the, the context sh
shifting on that to get you back in a
different frame of mind after you've been
immersed so deeply in this other thing.
Yeah, it's impossible.
Duke: right.
CJ: There's like no way like
you're gonna be able to contact
shift, , effectively in that case.
But you know what?
Also where you'll face
another limit working memory.
And, , this is one of those things
that I think, uh, there's a good
metaphor for chat G P T, right?
So chat, G P T has a limited
working memory, right?
, I forget what they call it, like
tokens or context or something like
that, but there's a certain amount Of
the commands that you feed into that
it responds back to you, that it can
continue to keep that context as you're
continuing to have that conversation.
and I view context shifting, jumping from
project to project kind of the same way.
. Like when I'm, when I'm having that
conversation with my client about
whatever this particular project is,
and I have to jump to another thing.
If I only talked to my client for like
30 minutes and it was largely like a
status update, it's a little easier
to jump to another client, right?
And then maybe even dive
deeper on I T S M roadmaps.
But if I've just spent, like you said,
Four hours on survey assessments and
then now, now I gotta go in and build
a custom map around X, Y, and Z.
Like, yeah, forget about it.
and I'm gonna say, right, like
try to know your limits and
try to plan this stuff out.
Also, knowing that it's going
to be really hard to do that.
Duke: I compare it to
performance automobiles and
performance athletes, right?
You see these Formula One drivers
and they're, they've got like
standard gear shifts, right?
and so you can work your way up
all the gears and it takes you
some time and you can break hard.
You can stop really fast, but
you, when you start again,
you're not starting at Gear five.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Right.
You gotta work your way all the
way back up through the gears.
Or imagine if you're an MMA fighter
and you know you're going up against
, some jiujitsu phenom, and you're
spending all your time learning how
to, not get taken to the ground and
then they switch the fight on you
and you're going against a striker
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: it.
You can't just, boom, you can't change.
And like, I can't think of
very many contexts where.
People successfully context switch at
maximal performance rapidly in a day.
You ever watch those videos
about those people who are
just like magic at their work?
You know, like some dude at a
taco stand or something, he's like
twirling things in the air and just,
CJ: Oh man, I love those.
Duke: and you wonder how they get so good.
It's just like doing exactly
just that for 40 hours a week.
CJ: Yes.
Yes.
Like that is the only thing that is the
focus, and that is, and you become like
basically a savant at that one thing.
And, and, and that's okay.
Focus is good.
You know, there's, um, and
there's a time, I think Duke,
you would agree with this, right?
Like back in the day when you,
when I started, being a ServiceNow
generalist was the thing.
. You be knowing the entire platform.
everybody aspired to
know the entire platform.
Duke: when you could.
Right?
CJ: right back.
I was gonna say.
Yeah, exactly.
Back when you could.
Right now, I don't even know every
module that exists on the platform.
Duke: yeah.
I mean, just look at now learning
their paths for CTA and cma.
Right?
And, and it, they say stuff
like, pick any X of this y.
CJ: right.
Duke: They're not saying
you gotta know everything.
It's just like, okay, well
there's uh, 13 different options.
You gotta pick like four of them.
CJ: Yeah, right.
Like, uh, uh, you know, some of,
some of the buck one and some of
bucket two and yeah, and, and you
know, you end up and it's like, wow.
, and I mean, , 10 years ago it
was know the platform, right.
And.
Yeah, I mean, it was, it was definitely
a lot, a lot more difficult, um,
then, but, but my point being
right, is that you can focus, right?
That's where I was getting into is that
you can focus, you can spend 40 hours
training on knowing just the one thing,
And you can be really, really good at
it, and you can make a career on that.
And ServiceNow, right now, doing
just that r that one thing with
some platform knowledge, right?
Like, I mean, you, you got another
platform in addition to that one thing,
Duke: Yeah.
Well that's, that's a limit too, right?
How wide can you go?
How wide should you go?
And I think back to all the
boot campers, like back when.
That renaissance of boot camps and
just all of a sudden we were both
inundated with people asking us questions
about, I think one of the big common
ones was, what niche should I pick?
I'm like, what niche?
You don't even know.
You know the basics.
What are you talking about?
Niche.
And it's just like when you
start, you cannot go wide.
You've gotta start with the building
blocks, and there's enough of those
to be wide enough as it is, but you
just, you can't afford to go wide.
That's a huge limit that
you should understand.
Don't worry about the niches, don't
worry about all that process stuff.
Get the fundamentals down.
CJ: Yeah, man, you
gotta know the platform.
If you don't know the platform,
like it doesn't really matter how
well you know the rest of it, unless
you're not planning on having a
technical role right in, in ecosystem.
And then in which case, like
be a process person, right?
Like you be a person who's in the
meetings, and mapping everything
out and talking like, this is how
a proper x y, z process works.
but you're going to need somebody
technical in that, in that meeting
with, you can say, okay, that's great.
But these are the, um, restrictions that
you're gonna run into in ServiceNow,
or these are the, this is the
trouble you're gonna get into, right?
And so they can kind of move those
lines around so you end up with
something that is actually buildable
at the end of those conversations.
Duke: Well, I'll tell you one thing.
Like it's kind of topical.
one thing I've learned in my forties is
that balance makes everything better.
CJ: Yes.
Duke: and another stupid, like cliche,
but, but it really does, right?
Like, I think in my, in my twenties and
thirties, I'd be like, no, I'm gonna
brute force this man 80 hours a week.
Bigger.
Yeah.
I'd brute force it and maybe
a couple times that worked
good in the short term, I.
I'll tell you, man, like if your time
is balanced, you're good with your
family, you're good with your sleep,
you're good with your fitness, it
makes everything go faster and better.
When I started working out really
hard, doing critically difficult
workouts twice a week, my, I,
I could feel how much smarter.
And quicker and more attentive
I was at my ServiceNow work.
It all comes together, and that
was just by understanding balance
instead of just brute force.
Push it to the limit,
don't push it to the limit.
Get everything in balance.
CJ: yeah.
You know man, that's a really good point.
And, , I think my wife would
say, I don't have enough balance.
And, and, and it's funny and, uh, You
know, it's, it's, I was, I was talking to,
we'll wrap it up and here I go and diving
Duke: no, go ahead.
We.
CJ: but no, I, I was talking
to my therapist, right?
And my therapist was preaching
exactly what you just said, duke,
balance, It was like, yeah, man,
you need balance in your life.
I'm like, yeah, but , I'm one
of those folks that I get some
of that balance from work.
Like I, I, problem solving is, is
one of those things that I'm, I'm
always seeking in my life, right?
Because I like that.
dopamine hit of, of
developing the solution.
And, uh, I have no idea
where I'm going with this.
We can scrap this whole
part wherever I was going.
I lost it.
Mid, mid train.
but
Duke: But, but I think what you're
saying is that there, there's
something that you need on the
deep end of the pool in your work.
I.
CJ: Yeah.
And balance is, is part of that, and
so what I, what I, I can think what I
was getting at is that, be careful that
you, don't over-optimize in one way.
Cuz I abso, I absolutely love what you
said, dude, like, when you were working
out, like you became better at your job
because your physical muscles, right?
Like, you weren't neglecting them.
And so that enabled you, your
mental muscle to, to focus better.
To work better, more efficiently.
I think sometimes we don't see the
correlation between some of these things.
Duke: No, we don't.
The biggest aha moment for me was
like, my brain is part of my body.
It does not exist on its own.
And, you put in a workout to the point
where your body's like, we're gonna die.
Like, we're literally, like,
this is not supposed to happen.
Our muscles are not supposed
to be torn up inside.
And it floods you with all
kinds of chemicals to make
you survive and to make sure.
It's like, if I'm ever in that position
again, oh no, we're gonna be ready.
And so your body does
all kinds of good stuff.
All kinds of good stuff.
Okay.
Totally off topic, but I'll
CJ: No,
Duke: if you wanna make your Service now
game that much better, but you don't know
how, like in terms of studying, in terms
of whatever, go and push some steel into
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: go have an intense workout.
make your muscles go into hypertrophy
and then see how you feel the next day.
There's nothing that being
strong doesn't make better.
CJ: Uh, no, I, I totally
agree with you, right?
, there is nothing that being
strong doesn't make better.
and, just tie it off.
There's nothing, that training doesn't
make better, Because like you said,
something that I thought was , really,
interesting and on point, right?
Like The reason your body like goes
through these kind of recovery mechanisms
and gets better right as you are working
out over time is because you put it in
this position and your body is naturally
like, all right, if we're in this
situation again, we know what to do.
Right?
That's training.
And that just works for everything, right?
Like anything.
And I guess we typically call it
experience, but to get experience,
you gotta exp you gotta train, right?
Like, you gotta see a situation before.
Uh, and that dovetails into something
we've always said, duke build something.
Duke: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I got, this is just, this is coming
to me new here, , it's coming into my
brain cuz of the physicality metaphor.
But at a certain point, if
you're just working out, you're
just making yourself tired.
You have to rest and recuperate cuz that's
when your body says, okay, the big scary
weights aren't on top of us anymore.
And you know, now we can feed nutrients
into our muscles so that they grow.
And I think even outside the realm of
the physical, that is true as well.
If you can, if you're putting in 80 hour
weeks to do something, at a certain point,
you're not gonna store the knowledge,
you won't have time to reflect on it.
You won't have time to like
reassess it and it'll just be waste.
It'll be waste, cognitive ability.
CJ: Absolutely
Duke: So like rest and recuperation
has to be built into this,
especially if you're going hard.
CJ: Especially if you going hard, right?
And that brings us back full
circle to where we started, right?
Like, it's okay to sometimes say no,
it's okay to not be, you know, to,
yeah, I'm not gonna make content today.
It's okay, right?
It is.
Or I'm not ready to make content today.
Because that rest and recuperation
is absolutely necessary too.
Duke: absolutely a
hundred percent necessary.
A great place to drop it off.
That was, that was swell.
CJ: Yes, that was.
Duke: Still have an outro.
Maybe next time we'll talk to you later.