After IV

I'm exploring a new church after graduation. How do I know if it's healthy? Is it a good fit?  Dr. Onorio Chaparro (Hunter College alumnus) shares wisdom from his years of pastoral experience to help us answer these questions.

This one's for you, Alumni!

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Creators & Guests

Host
Jon Steele
Jon Steele, a 2011 InterVarsity alumnus from Minnesota State Mankato, lives in Mankato, MN with his wife Kaitlynn and their two daughters. He’s been on staff with InterVarsity since 2012 and has been hosting After IV since its debut in 2020. He is also the producer and primary editor for the podcast. Jon enjoys gaming, reading, and leading worship at his church.
Guest
Dr. Onorio Chaparro
Dr. Onorio Chaparro is a Hunter College alumnus and long-time pastor with the Christian Cultural Center.

What is After IV?

Hey, InterVarsity alumni! This is After IV, your podcast for navigating life after graduation. This is both an exciting and potentially tricky transition you’re making and you might feel a little unsure about the coming weeks and months. We’re here to provide you with expert advice, practical skills, and plenty of encouragement as you learn how to keep saying "Yes!" to Jesus in your new context. This is After IV, and this podcast is for you, alumni.

After IV
Finding Your Footing in a New Church
 
Podcast Intro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Jon Steele  0:09  
Hey everyone. I'm Jon Steele. And this is After IV: a podcast for InterVarsity alumni. Life after college is hard. And even a great experience with your University chapter doesn't shield you from the challenges of transition. As we hear stories from real alumni learning how to make it in their post-InterVarsity reality, my hope is that this podcast will offer some encouragement, a few laughs and even some hope for the future. This is After IV, and these are your stories.

Welcome

Hello, alumni and welcome to After IV, the podcast that's just for you. I'm your host, Jon Steele. I'm excited to be together for another episode. And if it's your first time joining us, welcome to the podcast, so glad you made it. Okay, we're continuing our series of finding your footing as we work to develop some tools and frameworks that will be particularly helpful to you right after graduation. Check the show notes for the episodes that we've done up to this point about transition purpose and living with roommates. In this episode, we're going to talk about church transitioning from InterVarsity. To a church being your primary faith community can be tough. Even if you were involved in a church during school, it's just different. In order to help us navigate this topic, we're joined by Dr. Onorio Chaparro and InterVarsity alumnus from Hunter College. He's a pastor who has been involved with the same church since being introduced to as a college student. He's going to help us develop some tools for identifying a healthy church and for being open ourselves to engaging with a new faith community. Take notes, because he has some fantastic ideas for us. Here's Onorio and this one's for you, alumni. 

Musical Interlude

Interview

Jon Steele
Dr. Onorio, welcome to the After IV podcast.

Onorio Chaparro  1:53  
Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

Jon Steele  1:55  
I'm really glad that we got connected and that we can spend some time talking about healthy postgraduation church life together. You're somebody that has some special experiences with the church. You're an alum, and I'm looking forward to getting to break down some of these things together. But before we do that, would you just introduce yourself to our audience?

Onorio Chaparro  2:14  
Yeah, sure. My name is Onorio Chaparro. That's for anybody with a Spanish accent. Otherwise, you can sound it out with me or Onorio Chaparro, it's always marvelous to go to Starbucks and try to give people my name. But wow. InterVarsity has been part of my life since I started and on to college a little bit about myself right now, I have been serving the Christian Culture Center full time since 2005. As a minister, and under my jurisdiction, I'm the director of the Men's Ministry. I'm also the director over our connect groups, our kind of adult education, where we train up lay teachers to then be able to teach scripture and biblically based topics. I'm also now the Director of Admissions and Associate Dean of our seminary, the new school of biblical theology. And I'm also now part of their Florida launch team, setting up campus in Orlando. So I've been here now in Florida since the end of 2021. Also the best part of my life really being married now for 22 years and having four wonderful children 21, 19, 16, and 13.

Jon Steele  3:21  
You are someone with a lot of stuff going on and have kids in those stages of life. I imagine that there's a lot of interesting stuff that comes up for you just on a family level even

Onorio Chaparro  3:31  
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I don't know. I believe my upbringing in Flatbush, Brooklyn, my family's from Puerto Rico. But I grew up around a lot of very proud West Indians, and we always had multiple jobs. And that's what we continue to do, I guess.

Jon Steele  3:44  
Onorio, you said that InterVarsity has been a big part of your life since your college days. Tell me just a little bit about your InterVarsity experience. What made it special for you?

Onorio Chaparro  3:53  
Well, sure, I would say I came to a full commitment to the faith surrendered to the Lordship of Christ in 1995. That was in Stony Brook University. I knew college was part of my road to success growing up in below poverty line household, there was my initial formation with their college campus group. But when I transferred schools, I was really hungry. And fortunately for me, there was a wonderful brother that I met through a class one day, Thomas Jones, and he spoke up in the class and was quickly shut down because he implied that there was such a thing as absolute truth. And then after the class, I went up to him and we started a conversation. If it wasn't for that meeting, I don't know if I would have gotten into InterVarsity. And InterVarsity was just an immediate fellowship for me of lighthearted believers. Key part of my discipleship.

Jon Steele  4:46  
And what a cool story of when the Lord lays something on your heart to speak up about you should do it because you don't know when what you're going to say is going to encourage somebody else. This person stands up in class and sort of that's your next step in faith. development is because he took that chance. That's amazing. So you said that you work now for the Christian Cultural Center, you've been with this congregation for a long period of time. And so you've had the opportunity of watching people come and go and engage and disengage like you've seen the whole gamut. And you've also had your own personal experiences with some of these things. And so we're here to talk about helpful tips for getting connected to a local church. Before we get into some of our tips and tricks. Can you tell us a story even of a place that you have had issues getting connected to church as a young person?

Onorio Chaparro  5:37  
Yeah, sure, where I was when I was transferring from Stony Brook into Hunter College, that was a big transition. And the reality of it is, is a lot of times colleges themselves aren't as welcoming to transfer students. And so when I was transferring into this new place, I was also looking for a new church, the burden of looking for a church. For me, personality wise, as an introvert, you don't want to walk into a place and you'd be obviously standing out, you're new, and you don't really belong here. Sometimes people will make you feel that way. And so as a new convert, and is someone who was really unchurched, this was very new waters for me, I'm grateful to be landed at the Christian Cultural Center. But to my mistake, part of it was that I was going it alone, when I look back on that experience, I kind of would have told myself, Hey, you do know some other Christians? Why don't you just share this journey with them a little bit more, just praying with the people you do know, in a lot of ways I was automatically treating this as a consumer, I went to the larger places looking to see if they had a word for me. But at the time, really, the word for me was, how do I connect this faith with my real life. And I say this respectfully to places that I visited were, unfortunately, again, at the time where I was as a consumer, that's not what I was hearing, there wasn't a connection between my faith and what I was going to confront on Monday morning at the corporate office, in my internship, in school with all the other different worldviews, a lot of them that I came from a lot of that I was exposed to, But now Christ has captivated my soul. How do I now articulate that captivation that faith in a way that I can engage in dialogue? How do I listen to others and not simply impose on them and project on them? Why I rejected those ideas, because we're not the same person, right? That was fortunate with InterVarsity, really giving me a community there, I was able to then take those steps that came to Christian Cultural Center because of a college friend there next to Isaac. And then it was through him that I began to do those things that I said I could have done earlier. And so that's where that community there began to develop. But it was a lot of searching. And I was fortunate. That's where I was, at that point in my, in my life.

Jon Steele  7:55  
Even though your transition is happening still in the middle of your college experience, it's still this significant transition in your life, so many changes that are happening, your faith has developed in some really powerful ways. How does it continue developing in this next phase of life, and you're stepping into congregations where you don't know anybody, which is also very similar to the experience that many of our alumni are having as they graduate? And it feels like you know, things that you're looking back on and reflecting we're already getting some helpful tips for us to consider one of those being like, who are the people that you're inviting into the process with you one, are there people that you already know, who are going to establish churches that you could ask and say like, Hey, where are you going? And can I come with you to check it out? Can you help me with this process? Or who are those trusted people? You're already connected to that you could say? We've walked through a lot of faith development together? Can we have a consistent time of prayer and talking through what this search for churches like for us and help support and encourage one another through that process? And then this consumer mentality as well of not just what does this have for me, but what do I have to contribute to a congregation and to a community as well?

Onorio Chaparro  9:08  
Yeah, well, well, listen, one of the things I would say is one of the challenges I think, is don't retreat into your cave. I think sometimes, although we worship a God who exposed himself on the cross, as weak, by all visual signs, he looked defeated. God, the Son poured himself out. And in that in those moments, fully transparent, fully vulnerable. Even though that's the living God that we claim to worship, we oftentimes still retreat to our cave to try to figure things out on our own. And I would say to anybody, it really is okay to not have everything figured out. Just because you graduated from college doesn't mean you're supposed to have everything figured out. That's a lie. Maybe it's a lie that's imposed on you by other forces. But the thing that any kinds of education gives us is to know that we're always in the process of learning. The best education helps us to be better students of life. You know, my pastor says it sometimes I'm a teacher, but all the time I'm a student.

Jon Steele  10:02  
I like that. Don't retreat and continue being a learner. So Onorio, let's step into the actual, like people are going to a church on a Sunday morning, they're going to maybe some of the extra events, can you walk us through? What are some healthy markers of a church that people should be looking for, or that the absence of this thing should be kind of a red flag?

Onorio Chaparro  10:23  
I think one of the challenges internally is be careful when you're exploring churches, what you're comparing them to, because comparison kills growth, because the other reality is depending on where you're planted, depending on where you are, no church is going to compare with what you experienced here, which were very unique experiences. So the question sometimes we have to ask ourselves is where am I in this life? So am I clear about what a church congregation is meant to provide? For me? I think the first thing to understand is the congregation God's people meet to worship. And so there is that place of saying, okay, am I prepared to look for a place where I'm going to join my heart with others to worship? And am I clear about that being part of my vocation, part of my calling, to gather to worship, the second part of it would be, you want to have or be in a place where you're being pastored, where there is a pastoral spirit, what that looks like, at the very least is leadership that has integrity, and that they're known to have integrity, and leadership that has levels of availability to you, to listen to you. So there is a place where seeing yourself as a worshiper and seeing yourself as someone who needs a spiritual covering is behind those first two points, I think those are two essential points. The other then, if you've been through InterVarsity, you've already been doing it, the Great Commission, all of us are called to share the good news. If you have something good, you want people to join it, share it. And so you've already been engaged into varsity and mission. And so I think the other part of it is to understand that God has been equipping you. And so part of that for the InterVarsity alum that's going to be important is okay, how do I also discern a place that is engaged in those missional opportunities that are at least in this time in my life that I'm available for, but also close to my heart. Those are just some of the marks I think of looking generally speaking for a healthy church, this and it may not have your preferred music style. But worship is meant to be a sacrifice. Wow, it's not about being at the rock concert. The rock concert is a particular expression of human culture and existence. And it gives you the opportunity to have some cathartic moments and to enjoy entertainment through those gifts. But worship is meant to be sacrifice, there's a sacrificial element to worship. And being pastor doesn't mean that the pastoring team is the most charismatic, if you're going to compare them to folks on TV, then, okay, you're missing out on what it means to be shepherded, which is that you have people in your life that help you see the hand of God in your life, and then being missional. And that takes different forms. But I think being missional is an outreach where part of that is discipling the people walking through the doors, and then going beyond the four walls of that congregation.

Jon Steele  13:15  
And it's interesting that as you're sharing these things, none of them feel like earth shattering ideas. Does your church do the foundational things? Right? When the congregation comes together? Is this a place for worship? And I guess that's one question I have. Is there an example of something that's like this would not be worship? If this congregation comes together, and they do fill in the blank? That should be a red flag for you? Is there something an experience that you've had or something that you've seen that you're like, this would be an example of something that is not a congregation coming together to worship?

Onorio Chaparro  13:48  
So I think all worship will first exalt Christ who has an exalting of Christ throughout the service, a healthy church will have an overemphasis on hope. I'll just be honest, just the reality that we live in a world like that. So it's going to be an overemphasis on hope and don't think that's a bad thing. But I think one is you're walking into a place of worship where Christ exalted and where the body of Christ is edified, and that is built up to be who they are meant to be as the body of Christ as the church. And then again, when you say worship, and the worship is going on to the Lord, and there is there is a sacrificial element and element of reminding the people that they're called out to be sent once there is sometimes an overemphasis on who the enemy is. Some folks they're better known for who they're against and who therefore, there's some times and over emphasis on I hate to say it, but oftentimes an unhealthy emphasis on really centering worship with the church experience around certain charismatic leaders. I think that becomes unhealthy for the leader. Sure, and unhealthy for the congregation. You know, listen, even Scarface warned you don't get high on your own. Supply. And so the reality of it is, is that that's dangerous. And I also think that some congregations, it takes a while for them to get their missional legs under them. But you really have to discern, okay, is there a missional element? Is there an element of going out beyond the four walls is there that element and this I'm a church guy, I love serving the body of Christ, I love serving the church, I love discipling the saints. So I'm like the church guy, right. But I'm fortunate that I get to do that. And I'm also part of a larger system that goes out into the community that goes out into the world. And in my discipling, I'm kind of like the guy where I'm part of that funnel, where I'm preparing people to join the mission. So it's not I'm preparing them to just go home and have existential and esoteric experiences. It's really about how do I apply this faith now in the world. So even there, even though I'm the church guy, I'm the guy that's their pastoring. And mentoring, I'm part of a larger, robust process of getting people to see themselves as sent ones being sent out in the world is the salt and light of the world.

Jon Steele  16:05  
I mean, it sounds like a church that has healthy worship, incorporated in what it does, that it keeps the central focus on Christ. exalting Christ is what I hear you say, but that there is also this, because of this central focus on Christ, we have this outpouring of hope to those around us, this worship also seems to kind of pour into the other two elements that you brought up of a healthy church, you know, personal discipleship, and being sent ones into the community that it's not just this Sunday morning experience, and then I'm done. Or I go home. And it's still just for me that there are purposeful outpourings that come from our worship. Onorio, as we're talking through these things, a couple of different times, the idea of our expectations has come up checking those things, can you just help us develop a metric or a rubric here for how do I manage my expectations? If a church doesn't have everything that I'm looking for, or everything that I think a church should have? What is that appropriate? Discernment look like of is this actually foundational? Or is this just, it would be nice if it had this, but it doesn't have to be the right place for me.

Onorio Chaparro  17:18  
Yeah, no, that's, that's good. That's good. I think one is just remember the principle that we're not disappointed by what we find we're disappointed by what we expected to find. And so expectations are critical to managing disappointment. And disappointment, once it sets in can lead to discouragement can lead to resentment. And so I think one is to manage the expectations to know that you're going to a place and a space filled with human beings like you in different life stages, and different places of development. And even the pastoral leadership is facing who knows what. And so at the end of the day, you want to have the right expectation, the expectation to have is to expect God to lead you. But be careful with the agenda you bring to God. I think sometimes we don't discern when the baton has been passed to us. And I think that it's very comforting to stay in the place where you are consistent consumer and perpetual child, and you need to embrace the fact that God's agenda in you is to mature you the whole purpose of all the apostolic gifts, as it says in Ephesians, chapter four, all the apostles and prophets and pastors and teachers and evangelists is meant to grow us up. And they're meant to grow us up so we could do what so we, they could be unity, they could be maturity, but also so that we could become the prophets, the apostles, the pastors, the teachers, the evangelists, in the ways in which God has designed us to be, and I know you're going through the changes, I know you're going through the transitions, I know you really still feel like you want to help. And again, that's where you don't want to retreat. You want to access the community you have, you want to access the gift of InterVarsity, alum, this network that's here, you want to access the network, God has given you two as a gift, stop thinking you got to figure out alone. But at the end of the day, when you're walking into this church, minimize the criticism, and really walking with curiosity, walking with the expectation to learn something new, because now it's not just your discerning a place to be planted so that you can continue to grow. You're also on a missional experience, to understand the ways in which Jesus who promised and said I'm going to build my church, the different ways he has allowed his church to be built and developed, or the ways in which maybe people are pushing against that development, but coming with it with curiosity, look at yourself as partnering with the spirit to discern where it is that he wants you. What is it he's leading you? And so I think that if you come with curiosity, if you come with questions as much as possible, be aware of your biases, be aware of your assumptions, and be open to being pleasantly surprised that church may not be your Home Church, but don't just cut something off, because it's not your denomination, not your tradition. Be open to discerning where God would have you go, maybe you're a vibrant Pentecostal, well, maybe God wants you to hang out with these folks will be here who don't necessarily speak one word of tongues. Maybe because the pastor is a woman or man of God of integrity, and they love people, and you need to be loved on, you can keep speaking in tongues by yourself between you and Jesus about you need to be loved on by someone who is obviously bearing the fruit of the Spirit to be open to those who hold to the grace and truth of the Almighty God. That is going to be easier said than some of us, I think, but I want to go back to that network because I have mentored alum who have because of their context, and their work schedule, really struggled to find a home church. And it is painful, because you wondering what's going on. I think number one, the longing for church is a very good sign. It says a lot about your spiritual formation and development, especially a lot about your maturity, because you recognize it as being essential for your Christian holistically speaking, development. But also it needs to be a place where it breaks your heart, depending on how long you're going to be planted in a place that there are no churches for you. And that may be for Season. Like I said, I've known some people that for season couldn't find one. What they did do was they kept their prayer cords. What they did do was they kept the fellowship, what they did do was they kept giving charitably to a church, they did feel they were doing all the other things that caused them to feel connected, even if this season, but they know it's not enough. They know they need to be in the body. Fortunately, they're moving again. Hopefully this time the Lord will stop this wilderness experience and give them a give them a place where they can tabernacle with God's people in God's presence.

Jon Steele  21:57  
That's really interesting, making space for the possibility that in this season, you might not find the right church. And that doesn't mean that your search is done. It doesn't mean that the Lord has abandoned you instead, what are these connections that are still available and lean into those until the season is done? What's the Christ following community that you do have that you can stay connected to that you can pray through these things with? Where are the places that you can continue making financial investments? Could it be your InterVarsity chapter account? They meant to that? Yeah, you could be investing there? Where are these places that the things that you need, you can find outside of this structure until the structure is there, but that keeps discipling you in following Jesus? I think that that's a really interesting perspective. And again, all of that, you know, what are the expectations that you're bringing in with you and to, to come humbly to your pursuit and with questions and discerning Is this a good space for me. So Onorio, if there's anything that we haven't hit yet that you would say, here is my parting piece of advice for somebody who is a new grad in this new season of life.

Onorio Chaparro  23:10  
The challenge, I think for a lot of folks as they go through into varsity, and then as they graduate is, for some of us, we need to learn to stay where we are planted because it's intentional by God, that every church you belong to, and will belong to will never meet every single need. I've seen people who start off at Christian Cultural Center because they love pastor Bernards word, and then suddenly, they go off for a little bit, and then they come back, and they're kind of just blown to and from by every fad in Christendom. And I think that staying where you're planted to recognize that dry seasons are intentional by God in order to test you in order to prove you in order to prune you for you to learn how to drink deep of the rock of Christ as it says in first Corinthians 10, that's always following you, in order for you to learn how to speak to that rock and not simply strike out with complaints and grumbling and criticisms which are very popular, is very popular to deconstruct and to think you're superior and smarter than the early church fathers and mothers and you know better than the pastor and I think that you will be tossed to and from, and this affects you in every other area of your life. Now, I'm not saying stay planted in a toxic relationship. But again, even again, the discernment because discerning when is the season to move is also a communal experience. But at the same time staying where you're planted to recognize that God Himself will bring you to a place where you know you're hungry for something and you're thirsty for something. God is setting you up and gods like, Listen, I'm trying to tap into something in you that needs to be healed, something in you that needs to be tempered, tamed. I need you to learn from me through the years you just want to do discern rightly that God may want you to stay exactly where you're planted. So you stop being a consumer and start being a contributor. And that flowing from an a real deeper relationship with Christ.

Jon Steele  25:11  
This is the way that I think about it. Some of my most favorite songs are ones that I actually didn't like to start with. But I kept listening. I was like, There's got to be something here, just because I respect the band or whatever it might be. And I kept listening and listening and listening. And now those are songs that have like, there's so much debt. Oh, yeah. Oh, there's so much beauty in the song so much that I love about it that I didn't recognize before.

Onorio Chaparro  25:35  
There's so many things about life that are an acquired taste, yes. But if we keep the vision in mind, then we can acquire the taste for the things of God, we think that all the things of God are going to be automatically tasteful. They're not. Yeah, we have to have to learn.

Jon Steele  25:57  
Yes, if we commit to acquiring that taste, if it is actually a godly right thing that's worth committing yourself to and acquiring a taste for and saying, like, wow, there are things about this congregation that I didn't know coming in, that I wouldn't have known had I not stuck around, and that are actually the things that are deeply rooting me in this place that lets me know that the spirit is deeply at work in this place, and that there is space for me to be planted and to grow and to help other people get planted and grow. And sometimes it just takes time and commitment for us to find those things. Onorio, thank you so much. I just very much appreciate your humble advice, your helpful words of encouragement for us and your challenging words as well. I think that we need to hear in these times of post graduation life and figuring out what these next steps look like.

Onorio Chaparro  26:47  
You're welcome. Glad to be here.

Musical Interlude

Wrap up

Jon Steele  26:51  
Okay, we were just handed a wealth of wisdom from Onorio. Simple markers for healthy church, a thoughtful invitation to stay rooted, and a reminder to involve the spiritual community that we already have when searching for a church. These are words for us to apply today as we consider our long term faith community after graduation. But there's one point that I personally think is foundational to being successful in this process. And that's being sure to check our expectations. Whether we realize it or not. We all enter situations with a set of expectations, and they have a significant influence on our experiences. If that weren't the case, more people would like episodes seven through nine of Star Wars, just saying for those of you who are moving to a new town after graduation, or who are considering doubling down on the church you're already involved in what are you expecting when you walk through those doors for worship or other events? What experiences have you already had with a faith community that are setting you up to expect certain things because of your time with InterVarsity? Are you expecting manuscript Bible study? Multilingual worship, a robust group of people your own age, and in the same stage of life, a well practiced ministry that's tailored specifically to you. Because unless you find a unicorn church that's run from top to bottom by InterVarsity alumni and former staff, chances are, you're going to be disappointed at some point. So based on an audience wisdom, allow me to make a recommendation. Rather than searching tirelessly for a church that looks like InterVarsity. Search for a church that consistently offers the same foundational values as you're used to with InterVarsity. Does the church come together to worship and exalt Christ as the central figure of our lives? Does the church have healthy leadership that creates avenues for you to be discipled? And does the church send its people out to the world around them? In other words, does the church encourage your growth in love for God, His Word, His people and His purposes, those are values that feel familiar, even if the way they're implemented is different and requires some time to acclimate? Alumni. Let's be honest about the expectations that we bring to our search for our church after graduation and enter that season with humility and openness to the possibility of God meeting our needs in a church that we never would have expected. Onorio, thanks so much for joining us for this episode, and for giving us some incredibly valuable tools for a healthy pursuit of a healthy church. And for the rest of you come back next time as we dive deeper into the topic of evangelism after graduation. How the heck do I share the gospel when I don't even know any one? Great question. We're going to talk about it next time. I'll see you in the after, alumni. 

Podcast Outro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today, Alumni. If there was anything that you learned, really enjoyed, or that encouraged you from today's episode, would you send us a DM or tag us in a story? We'd love to hear about it. You can find us @afterivpod on Instagram and Facebook. And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast. If your platform lets you, leave us a rating and a review. And if you like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post-graduation friends. Thanks again for listening. And I will see you in the after, Alumni

Transcribed by https://otter.ai